Re: [DNG] Why Debian 8 Pinning is (or isn't) pointless
Quoting Simon Hobson (li...@thehobsons.co.uk): > That's the point - I never suggested it didn't. But it doesn't work > for me - as in that's not a route I'm happy taking in order to deal > with it. I wouldn't dream of arguing against people's likes. > Thank you for that link, I was aware of the equivs feature, but it's > not something I've used. But, for testing it can be simulated by just > over-riding dependencies, as in dpkg --force-depends -r libsystemd0 > And hey presto, the package causing me problems would fail to start - > needless to say, when it calls a function in that library the call > fails. That indeed removes it, but the point is that an equivs entry tells the package system it's installed, even if it isn't. You were saying it's not good enough for libsytemd0 to be present at all, not even with a cron job ensuring it has 000 permissions every night, and possibly not even with the binary file set immutable using 'chattr +i': Well, using an equivs entry, instead, should suffice to satisfy that objection. In that case, you can removed the lib entirely (using force options as you suggest), and the equivs entry makes apt lie to itself with the aim of ensuring that the lib never gets reinstalled. > > Duct tape is cool. > > Over here, the common term is gaffer tape. I last lived in Blighty during Ted Heath's administration (Trinity Church Square, Southwark), so I'm rather outmoded, but my understanding was that backing and adhesive differs between the two types. https://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?t=18499183 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Help needed debugging MySQL install
Hi everyone, I am having trouble installing mysql-server inside a container (lxc). I have the same problem with a fresh Jessie install. so it doesn't seem specific to Devuan. Basic description of problem: After unpacking and setting up the packages, mysql is stopped and the root use password is to be set. However, the management database does not exist and/or cannot be created. There are no files in /var/lib/mysql/mysql and it is owned by root. On an successful install (not in a container) that dir is owned by mysql. The log files show: 160716 22:32:16 [Note] Plugin 'FEDERATED' is disabled. 160716 22:32:16 InnoDB: The InnoDB memory heap is disabled 160716 22:32:16 InnoDB: Mutexes and rw_locks use GCC atomic builtins 160716 22:32:16 InnoDB: Compressed tables use zlib 1.2.8 160716 22:32:16 InnoDB: Using Linux native AIO 160716 22:32:16 InnoDB: Initializing buffer pool, size = 128.0M 160716 22:32:16 InnoDB: Completed initialization of buffer pool InnoDB: The first specified data file ./ibdata1 did not exist: InnoDB: a new database to be created! 160716 22:32:16 InnoDB: Setting file ./ibdata1 size to 10 MB InnoDB: Database physically writes the file full: wait... 160716 22:32:17 InnoDB: Log file ./ib_logfile0 did not exist: new to be created InnoDB: Setting log file ./ib_logfile0 size to 5 MB InnoDB: Database physically writes the file full: wait... 160716 22:32:17 InnoDB: Log file ./ib_logfile1 did not exist: new to be created InnoDB: Setting log file ./ib_logfile1 size to 5 MB InnoDB: Database physically writes the file full: wait... InnoDB: Doublewrite buffer not found: creating new InnoDB: Doublewrite buffer created InnoDB: 127 rollback segment(s) active. InnoDB: Creating foreign key constraint system tables InnoDB: Foreign key constraint system tables created 160716 22:32:17 InnoDB: Waiting for the background threads to start 160716 22:32:18 InnoDB: 5.5.49 started; log sequence number 0 ERROR: 1146 Table 'mysql.user' doesn't exist 160716 22:32:18 [ERROR] Aborting 160716 22:32:18 InnoDB: Starting shutdown... 160716 22:32:19 InnoDB: Shutdown completed; log sequence number 1595675 160716 22:32:19 [Note] /usr/sbin/mysqld: Shutdown complete 160716 22:38:41 mysqld_safe Starting mysqld daemon with databases from /var/lib/mysql 160716 22:38:41 [Warning] Using unique option prefix key_buffer instead of key_buffer_size is deprecated and will be removed in a future release. Please use the full name instead. 160716 22:38:41 [Note] /usr/sbin/mysqld (mysqld 5.5.49-0+deb8u1) starting as process 1156 ... 160716 22:38:41 [Warning] Using unique option prefix myisam-recover instead of myisam-recover-options is deprecated and will be removed in a future release. Please use the full name instead. 160716 22:38:41 [Note] Plugin 'FEDERATED' is disabled. /usr/sbin/mysqld: Table 'mysql.plugin' doesn't exist 160716 22:38:41 [ERROR] Can't open the mysql.plugin table. Please run mysql_upgrade to create it. 160716 22:38:41 InnoDB: The InnoDB memory heap is disabled 160716 22:38:41 InnoDB: Mutexes and rw_locks use GCC atomic builtins 160716 22:38:41 InnoDB: Compressed tables use zlib 1.2.8 160716 22:38:41 InnoDB: Using Linux native AIO 160716 22:38:41 InnoDB: Initializing buffer pool, size = 128.0M 160716 22:38:41 InnoDB: Completed initialization of buffer pool 160716 22:38:41 InnoDB: highest supported file format is Barracuda. 160716 22:38:41 InnoDB: Waiting for the background threads to start 160716 22:38:42 InnoDB: 5.5.49 started; log sequence number 1595675 160716 22:38:42 [Note] Server hostname (bind-address): '127.0.0.1'; port: 3306 160716 22:38:42 [Note] - '127.0.0.1' resolves to '127.0.0.1'; 160716 22:38:42 [Note] Server socket created on IP: '127.0.0.1'. 160716 22:38:42 [ERROR] Fatal error: Can't open and lock privilege tables: Table 'mysql.host' doesn't exist 160716 22:38:42 mysqld_safe mysqld from pid file /var/run/mysqld/mysqld.pid ended On a successful install, there are no errors about missing tables: 160716 16:27:53 [Note] Plugin 'FEDERATED' is disabled. 160716 16:27:53 InnoDB: The InnoDB memory heap is disabled 160716 16:27:53 InnoDB: Mutexes and rw_locks use GCC atomic builtins 160716 16:27:53 InnoDB: Compressed tables use zlib 1.2.8 160716 16:27:53 InnoDB: Using Linux native AIO 160716 16:27:53 InnoDB: Initializing buffer pool, size = 128.0M 160716 16:27:53 InnoDB: Completed initialization of buffer pool InnoDB: The first specified data file ./ibdata1 did not exist: InnoDB: a new database to be created! 160716 16:27:53 InnoDB: Setting file ./ibdata1 size to 10 MB InnoDB: Database physically writes the file full: wait... 160716 16:27:53 InnoDB: Log file ./ib_logfile0 did not exist: new to be created InnoDB: Setting log file ./ib_logfile0 size to 5 MB InnoDB: Database physically writes the file full: wait... 160716 16:27:53 InnoDB: Log file ./ib_logfile1 did not exist: new to be created InnoDB: Setting log file ./ib_logfile1 size to 5 MB InnoDB: Database physically write
Re: [DNG] Why Debian 8 Pinning is (or isn't) pointless
On Sat, 16 Jul 2016 13:15:23 -0700 Rick Moen wrote: > Quoting Hendrik Boom (hend...@topoi.pooq.com): > > > Whether he uses Devuan in a virtual machine is not directly relevant > > to me. I appreciate that when he's tinkering with the innards of a > > distro it may be vastly convenient to do it in a virtual machine > > rather than bare metal, expecially if things go wrong. > > I talk to Steve in other contexts, and he is overwhelmingly a Void > Linux user. He doesn't really use Devuan in any significant sense at > all. Thus my point. But it's just an observation in passing -- that > the impassioned rhetoric was particularly funny in that light. What Rick says is true. For my use case, Void is better than Devuan. But I have a wife, a son, and two daughters, and my life is much easier with them running Devuan. And there's something else. The Devuan project has soul. Just look at the interactions, the accomplishments. It's like being a soul singer in Detroit in the 1964, like being an outdoor roller skater in Venice, CA in 1979, or starting up a website in 1995: Right place, right time, the best people. If, by hanging out here, I can in some little ways help the cause, that makes me very happy. SteveT Steve Litt July 2016 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Why Debian 8 Pinning is (or isn't) pointless
Sorry about typo. > I did get a very bemused mail from the main organiser of Linux Silicia, > because of the domain name.^^^ Sicilia, even. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Why Debian 8 Pinning is (or isn't) pointless
Quoting aitor_czr (aitor_...@gnuinos.org): > On 07/16/2016 10:15 PM, Rick Moen wrote: > >Iron-clad proof that Bill Gates owns Fort Knox. ;-> > > Linuxmafia ?? I did get a very bemused mail from the main organiser of Linux Silicia, because of the domain name. (It does have the advantage of being somewhat memorable.) -- Cheers,My pid is Inigo Montoya. You kill -9 Rick Moen my parent process. Prepare to vi. r...@linuxmafia.com McQ! (4x80) ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Why Debian 8 Pinning is (or isn't) pointless
On 07/16/2016 10:15 PM, Rick Moen wrote: Iron-clad proof that Bill Gates owns Fort Knox. ;-> Linuxmafia ?? Aitor, ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Why Debian 8 Pinning is (or isn't) pointless
Hendrik Boom wrote: > That said, I find it immensely convenient that someone else is > providing me with a systemd-free distro that's a natural > continuation of the Debian I've been using for years. +1 > What's left is a matter of taste. > There's no point arguig about taste. And +1 again. It does seem to have come down to that - plus a little misinterpretation of what's been written. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Why Debian 8 Pinning is (or isn't) pointless
Quoting Hendrik Boom (hend...@topoi.pooq.com): > Whether he uses Devuan in a virtual machine is not directly relevant > to me. I appreciate that when he's tinkering with the innards of a > distro it may be vastly convenient to do it in a virtual machine > rather than bare metal, expecially if things go wrong. I talk to Steve in other contexts, and he is overwhelmingly a Void Linux user. He doesn't really use Devuan in any significant sense at all. Thus my point. But it's just an observation in passing -- that the impassioned rhetoric was particularly funny in that light. > That said, I find it immensely convenient that someone else is > providing me with a systemd-free distro that's a natural > continuation of the Debian I've been using for years. > It's a lot easier not to have to do the pinning and monitoring myself. In case the point was somehow missed despite repeating it a number of times, 'do it yourself' is limited. What would scale better is something similar to what the Siduction and Aptosid Debian-variant communities do (in their cases, imposing a policy on Sid = Debian-unstable). I can thus use Siduction's or Aptosid's policy-applied fixes to Sid without 'doing the pinning and monitoring myself', if I wish to have a stablised desktop variant of Debian-unstable. A user of Siduction or Aptosid might say 'I find it immensely convenient that someone else os providing me with a stablised cutting-edge Debian desktop system that's a natural continuation of the Debian Sid I've been using for years.' And that would be not a fork, you understand. And that would be 'for people like you, who like something that just works, and is infinitely configurable'. Nothing wrong with forks, of course. > I do wish you two would stop arguing. You seem to agree on all > substantive issues; Except Steve is all upset over my attacking Devuan Project, which I did not do. (Which set all of this waste of time off.) And he keeps posting logical fallacies asserting various things including the alleged necessity of distro forking because he likes Devuan, which of course doesn't follow at all. I have nothing I need to add, though. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Why Debian 8 Pinning is (or isn't) pointless
On Sat, Jul 16, 2016 at 12:44:33PM -0700, Rick Moen wrote: > Quoting Steve Litt (sl...@troubleshooters.com): > > > Due to my needs, my situation, my beliefs, and my skillset, an OS from > > the Debian project doesn't work for me. I've said why about 15 times on > > two mailing lists. For *me*, what works is the Devuan fork. So for me, > > the situation merited a fork. > > I'm glad Devuan works for you (although it would be more truthful for > you to disclose here that you don't _actually_ run it; you use Void > Linux and have an instance of Devuan in a VM that you normally do > not use). Whether he uses Devuan in a virtual machine is not directly relevant to me. I appreciate that when he's tinkering with the innards of a distro it may be vastly convenient to do it in a virtual machine rather than bare metal, expecially if things go wrong. That said, I find it immensely convenient that someone else is providing me with a systemd-free distro that's a natural continuation of the Debian I've been using for years. It's a lot easier not to have to do the pinning and monitoring myself. I dumped KDE and gnome when they turned weird a while ago. I use icewm and xfce as window managers. I have no need for systemd, and would prefer it stay off my machine. You can pin all you want on your machine. You can replace whatever you want on your Debian system. But Devuan is for people like me, who like something that just works, and is infinitely configurable. I do wish you two would stop arguing. You seem to agree on all substantive issues; you even agree that forking and pinning are both methods of avoiding systemd. What's left is a matter of taste. There's no point arguig about taste. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Why Debian 8 Pinning is (or isn't) pointless
Quoting Steve Litt (sl...@troubleshooters.com): > Due to my needs, my situation, my beliefs, and my skillset, an OS from > the Debian project doesn't work for me. I've said why about 15 times on > two mailing lists. For *me*, what works is the Devuan fork. So for me, > the situation merited a fork. I'm glad Devuan works for you (although it would be more truthful for you to disclose here that you don't _actually_ run it; you use Void Linux and have an instance of Devuan in a VM that you normally do not use). You appear to still creating confusion by using the word 'merited' in a way that has a logic problem. (The logic error in question is called 'affirming the consequent'.) You like Devuan (as do I) and therefore appreciate that it exists (find it 'merited' in the sense that you like it existing). You claim that this justifies the action of a distribution fork, because there would have been no other way for the Devuan Project to exist. But that is assuming the result you are purporting to arrive at. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirming_the_consequent If Bill Gates owns Fort Knox, then he is rich. Bill Gates is rich. Therefore, Bill Gates owns Fort Knox. Owning Fort Knox is not the only way to be rich. Any number of other ways exist to be rich. Other ways exist besides forking distribution X to perpetuate distroX-variant communities. The mere fact that you like the result of that fork doesn't mean other means of achieving that goal might not have been equally effective and a lot easier. And Bill Gates might have gotten rich through stock ownership rather than owning Federal gold repositories. You keep wanting to work out that I had 'attacked' the Devuan Project or claimed it wasn't right for you. I have never done either -- though I'd be a lot more impressed with your fervent devotion to the Devuan Project if you were not, in fact, running Void Linux. > > If you're worried about the... um... ongoing threat of the... um... > > non-function of a library between cron runs, you could set chattr +i > > in addition. > > If my interpretation of your preceding paragraph is right, the tone of > your preceding paragraph indicates skepticism on your part that the > Debian project will keep changing things such that to keep my box > systemd free I keep having to change my packagemanager-foo. No, that is not what that paragraph said. That paragraph was merely boggling over the notion of libsystemd0 being a threat or any competent Linux admin being unable to deal with it. But have fun with the apocalyptic thinking. > Your preceding paragraph, and the one it responds to, precisely make my > point. In the absence of guarantees, each of us picks what he thinks > most likely to succeed. Naturally, different people pick different > things. That doesn't make anybody wrong. But people _do_ find countless other ways to err. ;-> I'll bet you didn't notice that you didn't actually say anything. > First, your packagemanager-foo is cool. I didn't think it possible. Frankly, *I'm* not even very good at it. I just collect clues from others -- and there's absolutely nothing I've mentioned any of these places that isn't fully covered in the basic distro documentation. > It's a real boon for people hating systemd but not willing to switch > away from Debian, as well as people who agree with you that it will > always be possible to extricate systemd from Debian with the proper > package manager maneuvers. That is not exactly what I said. Occasional third-party (or local) packages may also be necessary -- perhaps from Devuan Project. _Or_ other problems might come down the pike that I haven't anticipated, necessitating other measures. And, as I said, I've switched distributions four times (to the best of my recollection) since first trying Linux in 1993, and it's reasonable to assume that I will again. > Second, I don't pick a distro exclusively for technological reasons, > and Devuan wasn't created exclusively for technological reasons. Read > https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20141127.212941.f55acc3a.en.html , > which to me is Devuan's Declaration of Independence. Read the paragraph > starting with "The problem is obviously not just technical" and the > paragraph after it. Yes, I read that at the time. I think there are some key (and very telling) judgement errors in there, notably confusing bureaucratic mishap with conspiracy (e.g., 'take-over of Debian by the GNOME project agenda'). Neither the Debian Project nor the GNOME Project is anywhere near that organised, and the truth as usual involves a great deal more hapless blundering and a great deal less sinister plotting. > For me, with my use case, the situation merited a fork and nothing less. Iron-clad proof that Bill Gates owns Fort Knox. ;-> ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Need for documentation (golinux)
Quoting Steve Litt (sl...@troubleshooters.com): > I'd suggest the display manager we use not be part of a window manager > or desktop environment. With all the things that have been going on in > the Linux world the past couple years, I prefer my parts independent > unless I'm using the whole package, and clearly a lot of people won't > be using LXDE on Devuan. My own approach to this matter is to not require a display manager to do anything more than Keith Packard's xdm does. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XDM_(display_manager) In fact, I mostly just use xdm. It's small and fast, simple and easy to debug, processes login via the Xlogin widget, and starts an X11 server (for local logins). I don't actually need (or want) a window manager to do anything else. If I need, e.g., to change what window manager gets launched at login, I do that via dotfiles, like God Intended. ;-> No, that won't be liked for everyone. Fortunately, it doesn't have to be, in order to work perfectly for those admins who choose to run it. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Need for documentation (Steve Litt)
Am Sat, 16 Jul 2016 14:30:36 + schrieb Steve Litt : > I'd prefer a display manager that isn't associated with a window > manager or desktop environment. I understand that and i would agree, but in my experience with devuan here, lxdm was the loginmanager which worked better (lightdm is an euphemism, i'd say, it is all but light). lxdm is really light, even not heavy compared to slim (which is lighter but not that much). I liked slim from my crunchbang experience but i'm afraid it is in somehow outdated - since it is not maintained since a while (have a look at the arch wiki about). (1) Just a, may be naive, question: shouldn't it be possible to free lxdm completely of any dependence of lxde? As far as i see lxde-common and desktop-base are suggestions, not needed. For what we may be afraid, the dependency of libdbus might be a problem ... (?) --- 1) If i'd be more talented linuxwise, i'd offer myself to create a nice configuration of wdm. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] libsx-dev and libsx0 packages don't work
Hi all, libsx-dev and libsx0 are very lightweight GUI widget packages. In the waning days of my being part of the Debian Community, a guy named Lee showed me how I could build a notification system that didn't depend on dbus, using libsx. But Devuan's libsx doesn't work, specifically, it yields no libsx.h. This isn't surprising: Debian's packages exhibit the same problem. Ubuntu 16.04 has libsx.h but has other problems. Void Linux has no libsx packages at all. Here's documentation for libsx: http://www.ee.usyd.edu.au/tutorials/ee_database/programming/libsx/libsx.html Unfortunately, I can't find the source code anywhere. Does anyone know how to get libsx running correctly on Devuan? SteveT Steve Litt July 2016 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Need for documentation (golinux)
On Sat, 16 Jul 2016 09:34:33 +0800 Robert Storey wrote: > I think I understand the issue well enough to sum it up nicely, so if > no one objects, should I just go ahead and file a bug report? If > we're about to dump Slim for lxdm or lightdm or whatever, I needn't > bother, but if we plan to keep Slim for release 1.0, I'd suggest the display manager we use not be part of a window manager or desktop environment. With all the things that have been going on in the Linux world the past couple years, I prefer my parts independent unless I'm using the whole package, and clearly a lot of people won't be using LXDE on Devuan. SteveT Steve Litt July 2016 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Gaffer tape: was Why Debian 8 Pinning is (or isn't) pointless
On Sat, 16 Jul 2016 10:00:07 -0400 (EDT)
Peter Olson wrote:
> > On July 16, 2016 at 8:51 AM Simon Hobson
> > wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> > > Duct tape, actually. It's like the Force. It has a light side
> > > and a dark side, and it holds the universe together.
> > >
> > > Duct tape is cool.
> >
> > Over here, the common term is gaffer tape. Duct tape is a common
> > term as well, and of course the commercial product playing on the
> > homophone (if I go the right word) with Duck Tape
>
> Gaffer tape and {duct|duck} tape are different products. Gaffer tape
> is less adhesive and is designed to be removed easily. It is more
> expensive :-) If you have ever used the other tape to secure cables
> to the floor and then uprooted those cables when tearing down, you
> will know the misery of trying to remove the other kind of tape now
> wrapped seamlessly around the cable.
Wrapped around the cable is the least of your problems: Duct tape can
damage the carpet, putting the presenter in a world of hurt.
Given that most of us give presentations requiring taping of cables for
safety, I think this is ontopic.
Where can one get gaffer tape especially created to tape cables to the
carpet for safety purposes? I've used wide clear cellophane tape up to
now, but that's not really as safe.
Thanks,
SteveT
Steve Litt
July 2016 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques
of the Successful Technologist
http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques
___
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Re: [DNG] Need for documentation (Steve Litt)
On Fri, 15 Jul 2016 21:18:27 +0200 wrote: > Am Fri, 15 Jul 2016 04:43:40 + > schrieb Robert Storey : > > > Thanks for posting this, it's an issue I wanted to raise but glad > > someone else brought it up first. > > I'd like to propose the use of lxdm (as a graphical login manager). > It's only insignificantly heavvier than slim but it offers all the > options cleanly you're looking for. I'd prefer a display manager that isn't associated with a window manager or desktop environment. SteveT Steve Litt July 2016 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Need for documentation (golinux)
On Sat, 16 Jul 2016 13:25:58 + (UTC) Go Linux wrote: > > Actually this is the place where slim issues are being posted. ;) > > https://git.devuan.org/devuan-packages/slim/issues > > golinux Cool, I just added, at the preceding URL, the request for special login names being enumerated on the login screen. SteveT Steve Litt July 2016 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] C Obfuscated code: a virtue or a vice?
> On July 16, 2016 at 4:47 AM Jaromil wrote: > > On Fri, 15 Jul 2016, Peter Olson wrote: > > > I'm a fan of Donald Knuth as well. My funny story is that when I > > was in college, I got an offer from Addison-Wesley to preorder the > > seven volume set "The Art of Computer Programming" for the low. low > > price of $119. It's now more than 40 years later and volumes 5, 6, > > and 7 are still missing :-) I'm glad I didn't take the offer :) > > wait a sec, besides that is a ridicolously low price just for the > volumes he has already written, AFAIK he is on schedule with the > initial writing plan, at least until present volume 4. please check it > yourself, last time I did I saw that he is absolutely on schedule. > But I don't exclude he may have been delayed just recently on vol.4 I actually don't remember a schedule. Agreed, it is a ridiculously low price :-) Is he on schedule? I don't know, but volumes 1, 2, and 3 came out a long time ago, then there was a revision to volume 2, then some time passed, then there was an Internet preprint of volume 4, and now after a long time, I looked on Amazon and found there is a print version of volume 4 and a volume 4b, and ... Long live Donald Knuth! For a fun excursion: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Complexity_of_Songs He also talks about knitting formulas in the preface to one or more of the existing volumes. Peter Olson ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Why Debian 8 Pinning is (or isn't) pointless
On Sat, 16 Jul 2016 02:12:01 -0700
Rick Moen wrote:
> Quoting Simon Hobson (li...@thehobsons.co.uk):
>
> > Rick Moen wrote:
> >
> > > 'Doing' something that is functionally indistinguishable from
> > > doing nothing. And a '000' rights mask would be fully effective
> > > paranoia insurance.
> >
> > Present tense and gaffer tape. Of course, any libsystemd package
> > update will rip that gaffer tape off so it's one more thing to keep
> > checking/fixing on an ongoing basis.
>
> Well, Works for Me.{tm}
That's precisely the point. Due to your needs, your situation, your
beliefs, and your skillset, de-systemd'ed Debian works for you. Nobody
said you shouldn't use it. Nobody said you should use Devuan or
contribute to Devuan. Debian with the magic sauce packagemanager-foo
works for you, end of story.
Due to my needs, my situation, my beliefs, and my skillset, an OS from
the Debian project doesn't work for me. I've said why about 15 times on
two mailing lists. For *me*, what works is the Devuan fork. So for me,
the situation merited a fork.
>
> I've only been a senior system administrator for a few decades, so
> it's possible that you know this subject a lot better.
>
> If you're worried about the... um... ongoing threat of the... um...
> non-function of a library between cron runs, you could set chattr +i
> in addition.
If my interpretation of your preceding paragraph is right, the tone of
your preceding paragraph indicates skepticism on your part that the
Debian project will keep changing things such that to keep my box
systemd free I keep having to change my packagemanager-foo. This is the
difference between you an me: I believe such changes to be the more
likely scenario. We'll both know for sure in two or three years, and
no, I'm not going to make a monetary bet.
But even if you were totally right and I were whack-job paranoid, that
doesn't make Devuan any less right for me. There are many use cases in
this world, and in some of them, Devuan fits the bill much better than
packagemanager-foo'ed Debian.
[snip]
>
> > Can you, with crystal ball, 100% guarantee that something like
> > libsystemd won't get "feature enhanced" at some point ?
>
> Can you, with crystal ball, 100% guarantee that I won't deal with my
> system to effectively apply local policy using regular open source
> practices? I've done it for only a couple of decades on Linux, so
> it's probably just a total fluke that I've gotten away with it so far.
Your preceding paragraph, and the one it responds to, precisely make my
point. In the absence of guarantees, each of us picks what he thinks
most likely to succeed. Naturally, different people pick different
things. That doesn't make anybody wrong.
[snip]
> You seem to be big on high-drama, apocalyptic predictions.
OK, so am I. So are a lot of people. So I (and they) choose Devuan.
Two more things...
First, your packagemanager-foo is cool. I didn't think it possible.
It's a real boon for people hating systemd but not willing to switch
away from Debian, as well as people who agree with you that it will
always be possible to extricate systemd from Debian with the proper
package manager maneuvers. The more escapes from systemd, the better.
Second, I don't pick a distro exclusively for technological reasons,
and Devuan wasn't created exclusively for technological reasons. Read
https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20141127.212941.f55acc3a.en.html ,
which to me is Devuan's Declaration of Independence. Read the paragraph
starting with "The problem is obviously not just technical" and the
paragraph after it.
For me, with my use case, the situation merited a fork and nothing less.
SteveT
Steve Litt
July 2016 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques
of the Successful Technologist
http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques
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Re: [DNG] Why Debian 8 Pinning is (or isn't) pointless
> On July 16, 2016 at 8:51 AM Simon Hobson wrote:
[...]
> > Duct tape, actually. It's like the Force. It has a light side and a
> > dark side, and it holds the universe together.
> >
> > Duct tape is cool.
>
> Over here, the common term is gaffer tape. Duct tape is a common term as
> well, and of course the commercial product playing on the homophone (if I go
> the right word) with Duck Tape
Gaffer tape and {duct|duck} tape are different products. Gaffer tape is less
adhesive and is designed to be removed easily. It is more expensive :-) If
you have ever used the other tape to secure cables to the floor and then
uprooted those cables when tearing down, you will know the misery of trying to
remove the other kind of tape now wrapped seamlessly around the cable.
Peter Olson
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Re: [DNG] Need for documentation (golinux)
On Sat, 7/16/16, Jaromil wrote: Subject: Re: [DNG] Need for documentation (golinux) To: dng@lists.dyne.org Date: Saturday, July 16, 2016, 4:03 AM On Sat, 16 Jul 2016, Robert Storey wrote: >>should I report it here: >>[1]https://git.devuan.org/devuan/slim/issues >> > > yes! that's the place where we hope everyone here will note down the > results of conversations on bugs. The mailinglist is not really good > for archiving those. and the task of archiving should be distributed > > also please note you don't need any knowledge of Git to file issues. > > thanks!! > Actually this is the place where slim issues are being posted. ;) https://git.devuan.org/devuan-packages/slim/issues golinux ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Optional libraries
On Sat, Jul 16, 2016 at 01:51:37PM +0100, Simon Hobson wrote: > Now, if the devs/maintainers used a "if it's there call it, if it > isn't then don't" approach then I could see that working. I assume > that is a possible way of calling library functions given the number > of programs with optional dependencies/features. Can anyone explain how to do this? It sounds like a useful technique. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Why Debian 8 Pinning is (or isn't) pointless
Rick Moen wrote:
I think we're arguing in violent agreement - there is more than one way to
approach the issue, more than one attitude to "risk", and what works for one
person isn't necessarily what works for someone else. Isn't that a key tenet of
the FOSS way - the freedom of choice ?
> Well, Works for Me.{™}
That's the point - I never suggested it didn't. But it doesn't work for me - as
in that's not a route I'm happy taking in order to deal with it.
> Can you, with crystal ball, 100% guarantee that I won't deal with my
> system to effectively apply local policy using regular open source
> practices?
And again, you seem to be reading into it things I haven't said. I'm sure
you'll carry on adding more tape as required and achieve the result you want in
a way you are happy with. As I said, that's not a route I'm happy taking. I may
have to if the combination of factors (including my own skill set) conspire to
make it the least bad way to achieve something, but until then I'll be avoiding
it. That doesn't mean I have a problem with you doing that - as you say, it
works for you.
> You probably wouldn't even like removing libsystemd0 entirely and
> replacing it with an 'equivs' recipe, which could also be done if one
> really, really, really were concerned.
>
> But, for those interested in that technique, see: 'How To Satisfy
> Debian Dependencies Without Installing The Stupid Package' on
> http://shallowsky.com/blog/linux/install/blocking-deb-dependencies.html
>
> (You're welcome!)
Thank you for that link, I was aware of the equivs feature, but it's not
something I've used.
But, for testing it can be simulated by just over-riding dependencies, as in
dpkg --force-depends -r libsystemd0
And hey presto, the package causing me problems would fail to start - needless
to say, when it calls a function in that library the call fails.
Now, if the devs/maintainers used a "if it's there call it, if it isn't then
don't" approach then I could see that working. I assume that is a possible way
of calling library functions given the number of programs with optional
dependencies/features. When I raised it with the particular package
maintainers, someone off-list sent me an email saying (of the response I got)
"if that's the support department, I'd hate to see the complaints department" !
> Duct tape, actually. It's like the Force. It has a light side and a
> dark side, and it holds the universe together.
>
> Duct tape is cool.
Over here, the common term is gaffer tape. Duct tape is a common term as well,
and of course the commercial product playing on the homophone (if I go the
right word) with Duck Tape
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Re: [DNG] Slow network startup [was: Systemd discussion on the Samba mailing list]
Am Sat, 16 Jul 2016 08:40:14 + schrieb Go Linux : > My Devuan wired network takes maybe 10-15 seconds to come up after I > come out of suspend. What's up with that. It was always ready on > Squeeze and Wheezy. Now I twiddle my thumbs and wait until wicd > wakes up. It's really annoying . . . May be you can try to set up your network with ceni (which is in the repositories). It deals fine with ifupdown. IME, the network if configured by ceni, is always up just when the computer wakes up. Otherwise, if i recall correctly, you can fiddle with the wicd settings to make it use ifupdown ... ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Why Debian 8 Pinning is (or isn't) pointless
Quoting Simon Walter (si...@gikaku.com): > I want to give a little bit of constructive criticism. > > "A fool is known by a multitude of words." That is not to say you > are fool. I don't know you. However, everyone is pretty busy. So if > you want to express something accurately, minimize verbiage and > refrain from using argumentum ad hominem. I read some of your > conversation with Steve on SVLUG. Because it was so long, I didn't > read everything. However, from what I did read, to me it you sounded > like you had an axe to grind. > > That might not the case. I thank you for your possibly-well-intentioned if highly selective and somewhat passive-aggressive unsolicited personal advice. > It seems that you are asking: "What is the reason for Devuan when > the same thing can be accomplished in a simpler way?" No. I am _not_ asking what is the reason for Devuan. Devuan didn't, and doesn't, need to give a reason, and I didn't ask for one. I'm sure Jaromil and the other founders are competent planners, and they have every right to do what they wish. And I am glad the project exists, and happy to have its products available. I merely stated my opinion that the same thing could also have been accomplished through less-drastic means. That view might be correct, or it might be incorrect. I merely expressed the opinion. Elsewhere. > It seems to me Debian leaders want Debian to be the new shinny. Really? That would be pretty delusional, on their part, because it's pretty much never going to be, and never has been. > By talking so much about this and that and wasting people's time, I > winder if you have an agenda to push. I 'winder' if you have been attentively reading, in part because: > So here is a disclaimer for you: Um, why for _me_? I deliberately implement a no-systemd-thanks policy on my machines, by preference. Was that, incredibly, somehow not clear? ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Why Debian 8 Pinning is (or isn't) pointless
Quoting Simon Hobson (li...@thehobsons.co.uk):
> Rick Moen wrote:
>
> > 'Doing' something that is functionally indistinguishable from doing
> > nothing. And a '000' rights mask would be fully effective paranoia
> > insurance.
>
> Present tense and gaffer tape. Of course, any libsystemd package
> update will rip that gaffer tape off so it's one more thing to keep
> checking/fixing on an ongoing basis.
Well, Works for Me.{tm}
I've only been a senior system administrator for a few decades, so it's
possible that you know this subject a lot better.
If you're worried about the... um... ongoing threat of the... um...
non-function of a library between cron runs, you could set chattr +i
in addition.
But I'm reasonably sure you won't like that, either.
You probably wouldn't even like removing libsystemd0 entirely and
replacing it with an 'equivs' recipe, which could also be done if one
really, really, really were concerned.
But, for those interested in that technique, see: 'How To Satisfy
Debian Dependencies Without Installing The Stupid Package' on
http://shallowsky.com/blog/linux/install/blocking-deb-dependencies.html
(You're welcome!)
> > Are you capable of preventing the installation of package systemd?
> I am. Thus, libsystemd0 does, in end-result, nothing.
>
> Present tense again.
Present tense and practice of system administration. It's totally my
fault for imagining that I've gotten some experience running systems and
learned some useful tricks. Probably a misperception on my part.
> Can you, with crystal ball, 100% guarantee that something like
> libsystemd won't get "feature enhanced" at some point ?
Can you, with crystal ball, 100% guarantee that I won't deal with my
system to effectively apply local policy using regular open source
practices? I've done it for only a couple of decades on Linux, so it's
probably just a total fluke that I've gotten away with it so far.
> I understand that you don't see much point to Devuan because clearly
> for you, gaffer tape works fine.
Duct tape, actually. It's like the Force. It has a light side and a
dark side, and it holds the universe together.
Duct tape is cool.
You seem to be big on high-drama, apocalyptic predictions. And indeed
the sky may indeed be soon to fall, the stars in their alignment, and
dread Cthulhu and the Deep Ones stirring in R'lyeh. Metaphorically, at
least. (Sorry, I've been reading Charlie Stross's latest Laundry Files
book.)
I've switched Linux distributions several times before, for good and
compelling reasons at the time. It'll probably end up doing it again.
But I'll bet it won't be over libsystemd0. Because, really.
> And one more thing. You've argued about (or at least discussed) the %
> of packages dependent on systemd. When you came up with your
> 90-something percent, was that direct dependencies, or did you account
> for A depends on B, B depends on C, C depends on D, and D depends on
> systemd ?
The latter, of course. And this is documented on my Web page, by the
way.
I might have missed some dependency chains, because it was a great deal of
information to collate and HTMLise -- but I listed all of the ones I
found through iterative runs using apt-cache. Please kindly advise of
any I missed, and I will be delighted to correct the omission, and credit
you for the help.
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Re: [DNG] Need for documentation (golinux)
On Sat, 16 Jul 2016, Robert Storey wrote: >should I report it here: >[1]https://git.devuan.org/devuan/slim/issues yes! that's the place where we hope everyone here will note down the results of conversations on bugs. The mailinglist is not really good for archiving those. and the task of archiving should be distributed also please note you don't need any knowledge of Git to file issues. thanks!! ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Need for documentation
On Sat, 16 Jul 2016, aitor_czr wrote: >Bingo !! >Solved :) fantastic. we need linux-libre live!! looking forward to your next release of gnuinos ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] C Obfuscated code: a virtue or a vice?
On Fri, 15 Jul 2016, Peter Olson wrote: > I'm a fan of Donald Knuth as well. My funny story is that when I > was in college, I got an offer from Addison-Wesley to preorder the > seven volume set "The Art of Computer Programming" for the low. low > price of $119. It's now more than 40 years later and volumes 5, 6, > and 7 are still missing :-) I'm glad I didn't take the offer :) wait a sec, besides that is a ridicolously low price just for the volumes he has already written, AFAIK he is on schedule with the initial writing plan, at least until present volume 4. please check it yourself, last time I did I saw that he is absolutely on schedule. But I don't exclude he may have been delayed just recently on vol.4 ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Why Debian 8 Pinning is pointless
I'm sorry, it's the middle of the night here, and I shouldn't be responding to mail. I didn't notice that the private copy was a _Cc_, and otherwise would not have spoken in that tone. As is the way of such things, I realised my error a split-second after the Send command. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Why Debian 8 Pinning is pointless
Quoting dev (devua...@gmail.com): > Sure, why not? 1. I notice you curiously dropped off the mailing list into private mail. Sorry, I wasn't really interested in a private discussion. 2. I notice you weren't interested in that wager. So, just rhetorical overload, as expected. > Glibc is just an example but the apache common package dependence is > real.a And meaningless. Please don't send me private mail unless we have some actual reason for a private discussion. Thank you. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [D OFFLIST NG] Larcenous mail threads.
Hi Edward, On Sat, Jul 16, 2016 at 07:45:23AM +0200, Edward Bartolo wrote: > Hi, > > Steve Litt wrote: > << > Ignore doesn't mean insult. It doesn't mean get all sad. It means not > respond, and don't let it get > under your skin. And you need to understand that this list is neither > a C list nor a Rapid Learning list, so you need to pick and choose > only your best discoveries and questions for the list. Other questions > are pretty easy via experimentation plus web searches. > >> > > "And you need to understand that this list is neither a C list". > But it was this list that went into attack mode. Therefore, it made, > and still makes sense, to show this thread what I am doing. > > "Ignore doesn't mean insult. It doesn't mean get all sad." > Ignore means accepting the insult as the truth. That is the problem > about that attitude. > > So, what I wrote, is an insult, while "cognitively deficient", Edward, I posted to you a mail using that term. I thnk you may have missed the context. It was ironic comment on programmer frailty: : About choice of language. I read there are 191 undefined : behaviors in the C99 standard, which means an equal number : of tarpits waiting for the cognitively difficient coder. : : http://blog.regehr.org/archives/213 I consider myself and believe most others to be cognitively deficient to manage the details that make up our programs, and that is why we have to get the most help possible, writing more declarations, less procedural. I am cognitively deficient to manage memory allocation and to watch for silent undefined behaviors. I need all the help I can get, and appreciate being coddled in the orthogonal nest of a dynamic language programming environment with automatic garbage collection. It is my chosen heaven and hell, excepts for short friendly trips to Shell Island, Awk Vista, or Vim Falls. I support you programming projects in whatever language you choose. Simple-Netaid is so good I forget that I'm using it. For my own programming, I appreciate having facilities available, In dynamic languages there are good libraries for processing command line flags to my applications, I can have --long-option or -s short option and can specify what kind of arguments I can allow or expect the flag to have. Let someone else solve the problem for me. Let someone else help me avoid edge cases. That's what I mean about choosing to reduce my cognitive load in programming. I'm not afraid to write something if I have to, anyway, you have to write to use another library, and there is overhead with learning the library all a trade off. I benefit from iterative cycles, which are fast with a dynamic language, and faster that I have an SSD. I've used a full-blown grammar, appreciate the power of that. One reason perl boomed back when it did was the socket code. Client server socket programming in C is pretty heavy duty. I heard some new perl programmers coming from C were crying with relief when they saw how much easier it is to the socket programming in perl. *And* it's right for you to do whatever your prefer. Here's an interesting reference for C programmers: JPL's 10 coding guidelines for safety critical software projects. http://pixelscommander.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/P10.pdf And here is a short romp through the history of computer science using perl 6, by Damian Conway, as a conference keynote. A luminary in the perl community, he is an architect of perl 6 and developer of a perl 5 recursive-descent parser library I've used in creating a command language. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nq2HkAYbG5o Have fun, Edward, doing what you love, and I wish you a sufficiently thick skin to live among the jabs of careless or crass communication. And I wish for you that you can have a subdued or humorous sense of drama. Joel > > > > more or less the same meaning as moron, imbecile, idiot, > whatever, IS NOT?! Don't you see, this is an unfair > evaluation? Why should anyone evaluate words according to > who is saying them? Maybe, Joel Roth has a prominent > position in the project, I don't know. In this little > pebble of a country I live in, we have a saying that goes > something like this: "It is not what you know, but who you > know that counts!" > > In this list, whatever I do, I am always to blame. This is > giving me the impression it is my name that is to blame, > not what I did. Sorry for the capital letters, I KICKED > BACK which should be normal in such circumstances, why are > you expecting me to "turn the other cheek"? > > Sorry, the criticism I am receiving doesn't follow > logically, notwithstanding I can do many things with a > computer the majority of people consider only fit for > gurus. My code repeatedly works reliably, and yet my most > important intellectual capability, "reason", is lacking. > > Edward ___ Dng > mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.d
