Re: [DNG] [Dng] What do you guys think about "Suggest" and "Recommends" dependency?

[Adam Borowski]

On Mon, Aug 01, 2016 at 01:55:57PM +1200, Daniel Reurich wrote:
> Why are we dragging up a thread from over a year ago??
> 
> I strongly disagree, installing "Recommends" are IMHO reasonable for the
> common case, and that should stay the default except where the user
> wants to maintain a really minimal system, and is prepared to have to
> install everything not an explicit hard dependency.

A thousand times this.  "Recommends" are meant for _most_ users, not for a
minority who feels an urge to micromanage their systems.  And let's say what
the policy says:

# `Recommends'
# This declares a strong, but not absolute, dependency.
#
# The `Recommends' field should list packages that would be found
# together with this one in all but unusual installations.

With this definition at hand, we can see why you're unhappy.

It might be that:
* you're unusual (like, a compulsive desire to remove all perceived bloat)
* your needs are unusual (deeply embedded, etc)
* the Recommends is in error

If it's the last, please file a bug.  Either in Devuan, or, preferably in
cases not related to systemd, in Debian.

Usually such bogus Recommends are an obvious fix, but there _is_ a technical
issue that can make this complex: Recommends from libraries.  The root of
that problem is, in many languages including C, having a library optional is
non-trivial.  The difficulty in doing so can range from a few lines of code
to being impossible within a reasonable amount of effort.  Thus, almost no
one bothers to, as a superfluous library is just a negligible amount of
wasted disk space.  Unless that library pulls something else, that is.

It's discussed in depth in a previous discussion:
https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2016/04/msg00162.html

An example:
(many metapackages)->
[R]: xfce4-power-manager (GUI for power management)
[D]: upower  (daemon that does the work)
[D]: libimobiledevice6   (a library for a minor side feature)
[R]: usbmuxd (daemon only for iPod owners)

Most of us do want xfce4-power-manager, so [R] is right.
It's just a GUI for the daemon, [D] is right.
Optional library dependency is lots of work, [D] for technical reasons.
The library is useless without its daemon, so... [D] or [R]?

My proposed fix for such cases is to forbid Recommends from libraries and
moving them to their users, so it'd be upower who decides how much it needs
usbmuxd (in this case, not at all).


So, when some Recommends offends you, please point it out.

I've attached a script (in some heathen language) that shows what
unsatisfied Recommends you have on your system.  I forgot who's the author
of the script, sorry.


Meow!
-- 
An imaginary friend squared is a real enemy.
#!/usr/bin/python
import apt
c = apt.Cache()
for pkg in c:
if pkg.installed is not None:
for rd in pkg.candidate.get_dependencies("Recommends"):
if not rd.installed_target_versions:
print pkg, rd
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Re: [DNG] [Dng] What do you guys think about "Suggest" and "Recommends" dependency?

[Daniel Reurich]

Hi

Why are we dragging up a thread from over a year ago??

I strongly disagree, installing "Recommends" are IMHO reasonable for the
common case, and that should stay the default except where the user
wants to maintain a really minimal system, and is prepared to have to
install everything not an explicit hard dependency.

I think it may be useful to add a question into the installer about this
(probably only in expert mode) rather then blindly change the current
setting.  Where we are rebuilding packages we could certainly review and
potentially reclassifying recommends as suggests where it seems appropriate.

The risk is that by blindly changing the current settings in regards, is
that those familiar with Debian would get a significantly different
result from what they'd expect during an install.  So I'd agree on
providing the option during installation, but I stand strongly opposed
to changing the default blindly just to suit a few power users preferences.

Regards,
Daniel.


On 31/07/16 23:47, Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI wrote:
> On Fri, 3 Apr 2015 00:36:22 +0200
> Franco Lanza  wrote:
> 
>> Personally on debian i was using from date
>>
>> APT:Install-Recommends "0";
>> APT:Install-Suggests "0";
>>
>> in all my install apt.conf.
>>
>> I don't like apt downloading and installing things that are not required
>> but just recommended or suggested, expecially in server or embedded
>> envs, but also on my desktop.
>>
>> What do you think if we make this the default in devuan?
> 
> I would be all in favour; hoping to limit the bloat, I have had for years 
> 
> # cat /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/40nosuggestrecommends
> Apt::Install-Suggests false;
> Apt::Install-Recommends false;
> 




-- 
Daniel Reurich
Centurion Computer Technology (2005) Ltd.
021 797 722



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Re: [DNG] What do you guys think about "Suggest" and, "Recommends" dependency?

[aitor_czr]

Hi Nextime,

On 07/31/2016 02:00 PM, Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI 
 wrote:

Franco Lanza  wrote:

>Personally on debian i was using from date
>
>APT:Install-Recommends "0";
>APT:Install-Suggests "0";
>
>in all my install apt.conf.
>
>I don't like apt downloading and installing things that are not required
>but just recommended or suggested, expecially in server or embedded
>envs, but also on my desktop.
>
>What do you think if we make this the default in devuan?

I would be all in favour; hoping to limit the bloat, I have had for years

# cat /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/40nosuggestrecommends
Apt::Install-Suggests false;
Apt::Install-Recommends false;

Cheers,
  
Ron.


This is the configuration recommended by dev1fanboy in his guide about 
how to upgrade from debian to devuan:


https://git.devuan.org/dev1fanboy/Upgrade-Install-Devuan/wikis/Upgrade-to-Devuan-and-minimalism

Cheers,

  Aitor.



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Re: [DNG] Bad website CSS: was Devuan Sticker Poll

[Steve Litt]

On Sun, 31 Jul 2016 18:51:57 +
hellekin  wrote:

> On 07/30/2016 06:10 PM, Steve Litt wrote:
> > 
> > Here's a screenshot:
> > 
> > http://a3b3.com/stuff/devuan_org_compressed_lines.png
> >  
> 
> Ouch.  Can you please visit the following page and make a
> screenshot?  I want to see if it comes from the software or the
> customization.
> 
> https://meta.discourse.org/t/cloudfront-cannot-establish-ssl-connection-to-discourse-origin/16752/12
> 
> (This is a random page from my browser history)

Here's the Palemoon screenshot of
https://meta.discourse.org/t/cloudfront-cannot-establish-ssl-connection-to-discourse-origin/16752/12

http://a3b3.com/stuff/devuan_cloudfront.png

Looks good,right? Now look at that page zoomed in quite a bit:

http://a3b3.com/stuff/devuan_cloudfront_zoomed.png

Still nice, right? Please ignore the font's pixellation: That's my bad,
it happens when I bigtime zoom any page.

In summary,
https://meta.discourse.org/t/cloudfront-cannot-establish-ssl-connection-to-discourse-origin/16752/12
does not in the slightest exhibit the awful font and lack of interline
spacing that
https://talk.devuan.org/t/devuan-merchandise/177/2?u=hellekin  did.

HTH,

SteveT

Steve Litt 
July 2016 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques
 of the Successful Technologist
http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques
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Re: [DNG] Building w/ gtk2 vs gtk3

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Fri, 1 Jul 2016 06:18:28 +0200, Adam wrote in message 
<20160701041828.gc5...@angband.pl>:

> On Fri, Jul 01, 2016 at 04:40:30AM +0200, Enrico Weigelt, metux IT
> consult wrote:
> > I'm currently packaging recent geeqie for Ubuntu Trustry
> > (which I'm still running on my notebook), and that leads me
> > to an interesting question:
> > 
> > How to properly package applications that can be built for
> > gtk2 vs. gtk3 ?
> 
> I'd say GTK3 doesn't "have regressions", but "it's one big
> regression". Just to name a few: CSD, font selection dialog, file
> open/save dialog, etc.
> 
> However, I see most project which didn't abandon the GTK ship
> altogether (Chromium, LXDE, etc) downgrading to GTK3 these days:

..appears "we" are "upgrading" Chromium to GTK3 now:
http://metadata.ftp-master.debian.org/changelogs//main/c/chromium-browser/chromium-browser_52.0.2743.82-4_changelog

> Firefox (was in unstable, reverted for now), MATE (already), Xfce
> (not yet done upstream), etc.  Thus, it looks like we'll suffer it in
> the long run.
> 
> > Should we have two separate packages (eg. geeqie-gtk2 vs.
> > geeqie-gtk3) ?
> 
> I'd bother only if you care about Gnome3.  And as we're on dng rather
> than debian-devel, I guess you don't.
> 
> > And how to handle other optional features (eg. lirc support) ?
> 
> Typically the answer is "include everything unless it'd pull _really_
> fat dependencies, and even then the optional stuff should still be
> packaged", but it depends on whom you package it for.  Best to use
> your best judgement.
> 
> 
> Meow!


-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.
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[DNG] Multiarch issues

[Nate Bargmann]

I've enabled the i386 architecture on my Jessie 1.0 Beta amd64 main
desktop.  All is going well except I cannot install the
libgtkhtml-4.0-0:i386 package due to the following:

$ sudo apt-get install libgtkhtml-4.0-0:i386
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree
Reading state information... Done
Some packages could not be installed. This may mean that you have
requested an impossible situation or if you are using the unstable
distribution that some required packages have not yet been created 
or been moved out of Incoming.
The following information may help to resolve the situation:

The following packages have unmet dependencies:
 libgtkhtml-4.0-0:i386 : Depends: libenchant1c2a:i386 (>= 1.6.0) but it is not 
going to be installed
 Depends: libgail-3-0:i386 (>= 3.0.0) but it is not 
going to be installed
 Depends: libgtk-3-0:i386 (>= 3.7.10) but it is not 
going to be installed
 Depends: libgtkhtml-4.0-common:i386 (= 4.8.5-1) but it 
is not installable
E: Unable to correct problems, you have held broken packages.


When I look at the Debian Web package for the Jessie package of
libgtkhtml-4.0-common, it is shown as architecture 'all'.  Even trying
to install the amd64 (default for my system) doesn't help.

Is this a Debian bug?

- Nate

-- 

"The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all
possible worlds.  The pessimist fears this is true."

Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us
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Re: [DNG] [Dng] What do you guys think about "Suggest" and "Recommends" dependency?

[hellekin]

On 07/31/2016 02:20 PM, Paweł Cholewiński wrote:
>
> First law of software quality picture from nixcraft ..
>

Oh, they even provided a line of examples :)

BTW, I thought this suggests/recommends set to false were already agreed
upon, so +1 here.  (Sorry I didn't take the time to read the whole thread.)

==
hk


-- 
 _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom
(_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/
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Re: [DNG] Bad website CSS: was Devuan Sticker Poll

[hellekin]

On 07/30/2016 06:10 PM, Steve Litt wrote:
> 
> Here's a screenshot:
> 
> http://a3b3.com/stuff/devuan_org_compressed_lines.png
>

Ouch.  Can you please visit the following page and make a screenshot?  I
want to see if it comes from the software or the customization.

https://meta.discourse.org/t/cloudfront-cannot-establish-ssl-connection-to-discourse-origin/16752/12

(This is a random page from my browser history)

==
hk

-- 
 _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom
(_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/
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Re: [DNG] [Dng] What do you guys think about "Suggest" and "Recommends" dependency?

[Paweł Cholewiński]

W dniu 31.07.2016 o 13:47, Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI pisze:

On Fri, 3 Apr 2015 00:36:22 +0200
Franco Lanza  wrote:


Personally on debian i was using from date

APT:Install-Recommends "0";
APT:Install-Suggests "0";

in all my install apt.conf.

I don't like apt downloading and installing things that are not required
but just recommended or suggested, expecially in server or embedded
envs, but also on my desktop.

What do you think if we make this the default in devuan?


I would be all in favour; hoping to limit the bloat, I have had for years

# cat /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/40nosuggestrecommends
Apt::Install-Suggests false;
Apt::Install-Recommends false;

Cheers,

Ron.


First law of software quality picture from nixcraft ..
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Re: [DNG] [Dng] What do you guys think about "Suggest" and "Recommends" dependency?

[Ron]

On Fri, 3 Apr 2015 00:36:22 +0200
Franco Lanza  wrote:

> Personally on debian i was using from date
> 
> APT:Install-Recommends "0";
> APT:Install-Suggests "0";
> 
> in all my install apt.conf.
> 
> I don't like apt downloading and installing things that are not required
> but just recommended or suggested, expecially in server or embedded
> envs, but also on my desktop.
> 
> What do you think if we make this the default in devuan?

I would be all in favour; hoping to limit the bloat, I have had for years 

# cat /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/40nosuggestrecommends
Apt::Install-Suggests false;
Apt::Install-Recommends false;

Cheers,
 
Ron.
-- 
   They that can give up essential liberty
 to obtain a little temporary safety
 deserve neither liberty nor safety.
  -- Benjamin Franklin

   -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org --
 
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Re: [DNG] Ugly, ugly news

[hellekin]

On 07/30/2016 07:45 PM, Rick Moen wrote:
> 
> It doesn't hurt to just _ask_ Joey his perspective.  
> 

I did already, as I mentioned earlier in this thread.

For the record, here is the content of my message to him:

*

Subject: a toxic document?

Hello

I'm working with the Devuan project, and drafted last year a
"constitution" that's quite different from Debian's.

You mentioned that "Debian Constitution is a toxic document", but I
couldn't find any expansion on why you consider it is so.

Would you like to expand on this, so I can ensure my draft won't inherit
such toxicity?

The document is accessible at
https://git.devuan.org/devuan/devuan-project/wikis/HellekinConstitutionDraft
if you'd like to read it.

Thank you for your attention,

==
hk

-- 
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(_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/
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