Re: [DNG] Systemdconf
On Tue, 18 Oct 2016 14:20:56 -0400 Dan Purgert wrote: > > > > Don't trust anyone over thirty!\ > > > > So, I shouldn't ... trust ... myself thinking that systemd is a good > thing. Got it! This is a buried shovel. If you're under 30, you can't know what this cultural reference was about. SteveT Steve Litt September 2016 featured book: Twenty Eight Tales of Troubleshooting http://www.troubleshooters.com/28 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Systemdconf
On 10/18/2016 01:22 PM, Steve Litt wrote: On Tue, 18 Oct 2016 12:54:43 -0400 Dan Purgert wrote: On 10/18/2016 07:03 AM, Aldemir Akpinar wrote: [...] Anyways as you've said we're obsolete grey beards :) Greybeard? Maybe (I dunno, never met you ;) ). Obsolete? Hardly. How else are people gonna learn, if not from the old-timers, because seriously, if pottering et. al. are supposed to be the teachers, we might as well all go back to Win... No Dan, you miss the point! Veterans should never be listened to, because doing so impedes progress. How can you ever improve if you do it the same way as people with 20 years experience? How much more progressive it is to follow people who have only done it for a couple years. Think of the avenues you'll explore getting their code to work. Think of the clever workarounds you'll be making, in order to fix problems baked in by five generations of yearlings. Think of the user interface possibilities when you throw away all knowledge and make something brand new. Don't trust anyone over thirty! SteveT I myself amd a whitebeard, systemd=borg with a non functioning warp drive (take on flat tire. “We're doomed to repeat the past no matter what. That's what it is to be alive. It's pretty dense kids who haven't figured that out by the time they're ten Most kids can't afford to go to Harvard and be misinformed.” ― Kurt Vonnegut, Bluebeard ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Systemdconf
On 10/18/2016 01:22 PM, Steve Litt wrote: > On Tue, 18 Oct 2016 12:54:43 -0400 > Dan Purgert wrote: > >> On 10/18/2016 07:03 AM, Aldemir Akpinar wrote: >>> >>> [...] >>> >>> Anyways as you've said we're obsolete grey beards >> >> Greybeard? Maybe (I dunno, never met you ). Obsolete? Hardly. >> >> How else are people gonna learn, if not from the old-timers, because >> seriously, if pottering et. al. are supposed to be the teachers, we >> might as well all go back to Win... > > [...] > > Think of the clever workarounds you'll be making, in > order to fix problems baked in by five generations of yearlings. Think > of the user interface possibilities when you throw away all knowledge > and make something brand new. You mean like trying to figure out how to gut systemd and install something sane? (aside - thanks to all you guys who're way better at this than I am, so I'm not shoe-horned into a systemd box, or trying to resolve dependency hell while trying to rip it out.) > > Don't trust anyone over thirty!\ > So, I shouldn't ... trust ... myself thinking that systemd is a good thing. Got it! signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Refracta on Distrowatch
On Tue, 10/18/16, Steve Litt wrote: Subject: Re: [DNG] Refracta on Distrowatch To: dng@lists.dyne.org Date: Tuesday, October 18, 2016, 12:40 PM On Tue, 18 Oct 2016 14:30:52 + (UTC) Go Linux wrote: >> >> Here's a suggestion . . . >> >> Why don't you roll your own low vision-friendly Refracta! >> > That ain't a half bad idea! OK. Let's get to it! >> >> That would be so easy to do with refractasnapshot >> > I'll need guidance with refractasnapshot. http://www.ibiblio.org/refracta/documents.html >> >> after you've made the appropriate changes >> > Yeah, that was my next question. Changes to what? Where do I start in > making this theme? Change the wallpaper/background by right clicking on the desktop. Fonts, etc. from Menu > Settings > Appearance >> >> and way more efficient than us trying to figure >> out what would and wouldn't work. >> > Yeah, I could do it in a day, which is way quicker than a back and > forth via IRC. Time will tell. >> >> Don't know if fsr has room to >> host it himself but he could surely provide prominent links to it on >> the Refracta website, forum and sourceforge. >> > Well wait. This thing is only relevant if, at boot, the person can > choose it. If it's hosted elsewhere, and the user must navigate through > an interface he can't see in order to download it, it's not worth doing. > Anybody interested in refracta would be made aware of a low-vision friendly edition and where to download it. And as fsr mentioned, perhaps it could be included in the main iso as another user. Only problem I see with that is that refracta is pared down to fit on a cd so there might not be room to do it that way. > > Remember, this is like a buried shovel. The user must read in order to > use my theme, and must use my theme to read. > See above. Potential users will READ before they download so will know how and where to get what they need. > > Does Refracta ship with a factory direct, untweaked clearlooks? That > might be a good place to start. > Both Devuan and Refracta use a customized Clearlooks-Phenix theme. Clearlooks is not GTK3 friendly and these days GTK3 support is really needed. Clearlooks-Phenix was the best compromise. > > And I'll need your help on this, because I don't know which files and > variables change which properties. I'll just ask you on #debianfork. > That should get you started. > > Thanks, > > SteveT > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Refracta on Distrowatch
On Tue, 18 Oct 2016 14:30:52 + (UTC) Go Linux wrote: > > Here's a suggestion . . . > > Why don't you roll your own low vision-friendly Refracta! That ain't a half bad idea! > That would > be so easy to do with refractasnapshot I'll need guidance with refractasnapshot. > after you've made the > appropriate changes Yeah, that was my next question. Changes to what? Where do I start in making this theme? > and way more efficient than us trying to figure > out what would and wouldn't work. Yeah, I could do it in a day, which is way quicker than a back and forth via IRC. > Don't know if fsr has room to > host it himself but he could surely provide prominent links to it on > the Refracta website, forum and sourceforge. Well wait. This thing is only relevant if, at boot, the person can choose it. If it's hosted elsewhere, and the user must navigate through an interface he can't see in order to download it, it's not worth doing. Remember, this is like a buried shovel. The user must read in order to use my theme, and must use my theme to read. Does Refracta ship with a factory direct, untweaked clearlooks? That might be a good place to start. And I'll need your help on this, because I don't know which files and variables change which properties. I'll just ask you on #debianfork. Thanks, SteveT Steve Litt September 2016 featured book: Twenty Eight Tales of Troubleshooting http://www.troubleshooters.com/28 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Systemdconf
On Tue, 18 Oct 2016 12:54:43 -0400 Dan Purgert wrote: > On 10/18/2016 07:03 AM, Aldemir Akpinar wrote: > > > > [...] > > > > Anyways as you've said we're obsolete grey beards :) > > Greybeard? Maybe (I dunno, never met you ;) ). Obsolete? Hardly. > > How else are people gonna learn, if not from the old-timers, because > seriously, if pottering et. al. are supposed to be the teachers, we > might as well all go back to Win... No Dan, you miss the point! Veterans should never be listened to, because doing so impedes progress. How can you ever improve if you do it the same way as people with 20 years experience? How much more progressive it is to follow people who have only done it for a couple years. Think of the avenues you'll explore getting their code to work. Think of the clever workarounds you'll be making, in order to fix problems baked in by five generations of yearlings. Think of the user interface possibilities when you throw away all knowledge and make something brand new. Don't trust anyone over thirty! SteveT Steve Litt September 2016 featured book: Twenty Eight Tales of Troubleshooting http://www.troubleshooters.com/28 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Systemdconf
Funny thing, it was same week as Splunk2016, so many systemd haters would be in Orlando, so as not to disturb the Lennart love-fest. SWS On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 12:54 PM, Dan Purgert wrote: > > > On 10/18/2016 07:03 AM, Aldemir Akpinar wrote: > > > > [...] > > > > Anyways as you've said we're obsolete grey beards :) > > Greybeard? Maybe (I dunno, never met you ;) ). Obsolete? Hardly. > > How else are people gonna learn, if not from the old-timers, because > seriously, if pottering et. al. are supposed to be the teachers, we > might as well all go back to Win... > > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Systemdconf
On 10/18/2016 07:03 AM, Aldemir Akpinar wrote: > > [...] > > Anyways as you've said we're obsolete grey beards :) Greybeard? Maybe (I dunno, never met you ;) ). Obsolete? Hardly. How else are people gonna learn, if not from the old-timers, because seriously, if pottering et. al. are supposed to be the teachers, we might as well all go back to Win... signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Refracta on Distrowatch
On Mon, 10/17/16, Steve Litt wrote: Subject: Re: [DNG] Refracta on Distrowatch To: dng@lists.dyne.org Date: Monday, October 17, 2016, 7:14 PM > > A COUPLE OTHER REFRACTA SUGGESTIONS > > The Refracta I installed on the laptop was very hostile to those with > bad vision. It had this garish mostly orange and some black background > that camouflaged any desktop icons and even terminals. The terminals > were set to some low contrast thing like #aa on #00, with small > fonts, and transparency. Imagine how hard it was to read anything when > the garish background obscured the tiny, low contrast writing on the > terminal. > > Pretty is nice, but pretty is a luxury for the well-sighted. Those of > us with lousy vision hugely prioritize legibility, which is usually a > direct tradeoff with pretty. There are times I can't read pretty enough > to configure it to legibility. > > So I'd suggest a second theme for Refracta, either selectible at boot, > or runnable by a click on the top left desktop icon (remember, the user > might not be seeing the icon clearly enough to read it). The legibility > theme should feature: > > * No background image. Just a straight #006600 color, no gradient. > > * Terminal coloration either #00 on #ff or #ff on #00. >Yeah, that gives some people headaches, but those of us with bad >vision can't even use the less contrasty stuff. > > * Big font for the terminals. Big enough that an 80x25 terminal >emulator should occupy considerably more than 1/4 of the monitor >area. Consider bold fonts. Ugly, but more readable to the >less-sighted. > > * No friggin transparency! > > * Window border width of 2px instead of 1px, colored very noticibly, >especially for the active window (I use #00 for the active window >border and #66 for the inactive window border). No silly >gradients on the titlebar: legibility for the poorly sighted demands >a solid block recognizeable as such. > > * Window title bar font big, similar to what I described for the >terminal emulator font, and very contrasty with the window title bar >background color. > > * Active window's titlebar *VERY* noticible at a moment's glance. My >active titlebar has a background of #DD and foreground #CC. >I'm not color blind, but if I were, I might prefer something like >#00 on #FF. Ugly to most of us, but to a poorly-sighted >colorblind person this would be a saving grace. > > As you read this, it will sound horribly ugly to you, but please > remember it will be used by very few. Most people will use the standard > theme. The only purpose of this alternate theme is to help those whose > vision is so bad they can't afford pretty. And please remember, unless > this alternate theme is either default or dead-bang easy and intuitive > to get to, the poorly sighted person will not have the visual acuity to > navigate the standard theme enough to make their computer legible. > > Thanks, > > SteveT > Here's a suggestion . . . Why don't you roll your own low vision-friendly Refracta! That would be so easy to do with refractasnapshot after you've made the appropriate changes and way more efficient than us trying to figure out what would and wouldn't work. Don't know if fsr has room to host it himself but he could surely provide prominent links to it on the Refracta website, forum and sourceforge. Cheers! golinux ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan 1.0 final release?
On Tue, 10/18/16, Robert Storey wrote: Subject: [DNG] Devuan 1.0 final release? To: dng@lists.dyne.org Date: Tuesday, October 18, 2016, 3:08 AM > > Greetings All, > > By now I'm sure all with an interest in Devuan have seen the review of > Refracta that I wrote for DistroWatch. > [snip] > > When the much anticipated final release makes its debut, it will undoubtedly > be reviewed on DistroWatch, > and there is a better-than-even chance that > I'll be the one to write the story. > [snip] > > cheers, > Robert> Robert, That was an awesome review! By now you must have seen the outpourings of appreciation in the comments on the Distrowatch site. Well done! Refracta has always been an amazing little distro (it fits on a cd!). And now that's it's based on Devuan even more so. Nice that it's finally getting the recognition it deserves. Hopefully, we'll be seeing a review of Devuan Jessie soon . . . golinux ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Systemdconf
On 18 October 2016 at 13:49, Nate Bargmann wrote: > * On 2016 18 Oct 03:10 -0500, Aldemir Akpinar wrote: > > Apparently systemd is having a conference in a week in Berlin. Looking at > > the schedule ( https://cfp.systemd.io/en/systemdconf_2016/public/ > schedule/0 ) > > is, I think, helpful for us to see what's happening in the systemd > > universe. Also it's not surprising to see that Redhat is the main > > sponsor. > > According to the way I read the schedule, this has already taken place > about three weeks ago, Sept 28 through Oct 1. > > At the end of Day 2 was a forum, "Talking to systemd from a Web > Browser". Uhhh, wut? That was preceeded by, "Automotive startup and > device management". Uhh, nope, not for me. > > I wonder when they discussed rounding up and reeducating all the Unix > gray beards? > > - Nate > > > Yes, I misread the dates. Tobias kindly sent me the links to the presentations: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUUbFGNZ1vI (state of the union, portable services) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zN0b6BfgLY (bus1) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnnL1GCioKY (resolved) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgOV5rAe6xQ (networkd) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uYkW1K0wxo (wireless daemon) I watched a few of them, and I recommend you to watch the state of the union(!) video, especially the last part of it. You can download services from the internet (Lennart claims it will be sandboxed and secure), or you can start services with -H hostname on a another server a bit like a ssh root@hostname "systemdctl start xxx" kind of a thing. And I find those alarming and a bit pointless. Anyways as you've said we're obsolete grey beards :) -- aldemir ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Systemdconf
* On 2016 18 Oct 03:10 -0500, Aldemir Akpinar wrote: > Apparently systemd is having a conference in a week in Berlin. Looking at > the schedule ( https://cfp.systemd.io/en/systemdconf_2016/public/schedule/0 ) > is, I think, helpful for us to see what's happening in the systemd > universe. Also it's not surprising to see that Redhat is the main > sponsor. According to the way I read the schedule, this has already taken place about three weeks ago, Sept 28 through Oct 1. At the end of Day 2 was a forum, "Talking to systemd from a Web Browser". Uhhh, wut? That was preceeded by, "Automotive startup and device management". Uhh, nope, not for me. I wonder when they discussed rounding up and reeducating all the Unix gray beards? - Nate -- "The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true." Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Systemdconf
Apparently systemd is having a conference in a week in Berlin. Looking at the schedule ( https://cfp.systemd.io/en/systemdconf_2016/public/schedule/0 ) is, I think, helpful for us to see what's happening in the systemd universe. Also it's not surprising to see that Redhat is the main sponsor. -- aldemir ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Devuan 1.0 final release?
Greetings All, By now I'm sure all with an interest in Devuan have seen the review of Refracta that I wrote for DistroWatch. A few of you knew in advance that I was working on this article, and sent me technical tips and advice before it was published. Thank you for this assistance - indeed, it was essential, my story would have been a hopeless muddle without it. Needless to say, fsmithred was foremost among my contacts, but a few others also contributed their expertise, and I am grateful for the help. As the title of this thread indicates, a final release of Devuan 1.0 is on my mind. The reason why Devuan hasn't been reviewed yet is because it's still only available as a beta version. When the much anticipated final release makes its debut, it will undoubtedly be reviewed on DistroWatch, and there is a better-than-even chance that I'll be the one to write the story. As I hinted in my Refracta article, the main gotcha that Devuan suffers from right now is its installer. Once installed, the operating system is actually rock-solid. Indeed, I think it's fair to say that Devuan in its current state could honestly call itself a "stable release"...if the installer gets fixed. Not that I could do better, mind you. I fully appreciate how much work it is to write a program that performs flawlessly on everyone's computer, no matter what stupid things the end-user does. But this is a problem that just has to get fixed or else the world will end, so let's take a look at the details... Specifically, the problem with the installer is that it forces you to do a network install even if you've downloaded and burned the bulky 4GB DVD ISO. My experience is that the installation takes over an hour, but YMMV due to network speed. A lot of people don't have that much patience, but more problematic is that in the middle of the process, it's usual to receive an error message that the installation failed (I believe this is caused by network timeout, but I'm not sure). Ironically, if you ignore the threatening error message and just reissue the appropriate command, the installer will pick up where it left off and successfully compete the routine. So this "fatal error" is not really fatal, as long as you don't let yourself be intimidated. Unfortunately, upon seeing the "installation failed" error message, many potential converts to Devuan are convinced that the Department of Homeland Security has learned of their disloyalty to systemd, thus they WILL BE PUNISHED unless they immediately repent and burn their Devuan CD. Of course, I'm exaggerating. It's ridiculous to believe that the Department of Homeland Security knows what you're doing. Just as long as you wear your tinfoil hat at all times, their spy satellites won't be able to read your thoughts. So there's no reason to be paranoid. Sorry I'm starting to ramble. It could be those chemtrails are starting to affect me, or maybe the nano-robots in the vaccinations. Anyway, I hope you all get my point. No, not the point that I should be committed, but rather that the installer needs some attention. I'm sorry to say that I don't have the technical skills to fix it myself, but I'm hoping that doing so won't be too onerous, and that it can be done in the near future. I swear that once the Devuan 1.0 final release is in my hot little hands, I will immediately pounce upon it and write the review. OK, I'll go now. cheers, Robert ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
