Re: [DNG] OpenVZ 6 ready with Devuan 1

[Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult]

On 26.07.2017 21:15, Adam Borowski wrote:


The future is lxc, which has some new tricks, but offers nowhere close to
the level of isolation openvz and vserver had.  Unprivileged containers
aren't bad, but still quite lacking.


Whats missing in lxc?


--mtx

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Re: [DNG] flash player for browser

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Joachim Fahrner (j...@fahrner.name):

> You can try Google Chrome (not Chromium). AFAIK that's the only
> browser for Linux that still supports Flash.

As mentioned separately, pepperflashplugin-nonfree (the PPAPI[1]
proprietary Google-written Flash player _for_ Google Chrome) works in
Chromium -- because after all, Google Chrome is just Chromium with a
bunch of dodgy proprietary bits tacked on.

Debian Project's page about that:
https://wiki.debian.org/PepperFlashPlayer/Installing


[1] PPAPI is a similar but different Google rewrite of the old NPAPI
plug-in interface.  (The latter has been standard in Mozilla-family Web 
browsers,
but is being phased out starting 2013 as part of browser wrecking^W 
improvement.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Native_Client#PPAPI
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NPAPI#Browser_support

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Re: [DNG] flash player for browser

[Adam Borowski]

On Wed, Jul 26, 2017 at 02:01:03PM -0400, Haines Brown wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 26, 2017 at 07:49:56PM +0200, Joachim Fahrner wrote:
> > Am 2017-07-26 19:40, schrieb Haines Brown:
> > >I need access an online database, but when I try to do it I get the
> > >error message that I don't have the latest version of Macromedia Flash
> > >Player. The site needs Macromedia Flash Player 11.1 or higher.
> > 
> > Adobe ceased the flash player supoort for Linux long time ago. And now they
> > announced the end of flash player for all platforms. Flash is dead!
> > 
> > https://blogs.adobe.com/conversations/2017/07/adobe-flash-update.html
> 
> Ah! Thank you.
> 
> So then how do I access the database? The files I need to access are
> newspaper images.

In the short term, try installing google-spyware (ie, official chrome rather
than chromium).

In the medium term, a VM with Windows.

In the long term, you have a yet another reminder why proprietary software
is bad.  For something with as much existing content as Flash, there's no
way someone wouldn't keep it on life support, the way we can read .Z files
today.


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Re: [DNG] Please keep 32-bits alive

[Adam Borowski]

On Wed, Jul 26, 2017 at 04:00:43PM -0400, Christopher Clements wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 26, 2017 at 10:56:13AM +, Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult 
> wrote:
> > On 26.07.2017 09:34, Didier Kryn wrote:
> > > and even unistd's write() and seek() are wrappers for kernel's pwrite().
> > 
> > No. Just look at the code. write()+seek() as different semantics
> > than pwrite(), and they don't even need to be supported by some
> > particular fd.
> 
> Wouldn't this work? (no error checking of course XD)
> 
>off_t lseek(int fd, off_t offset, int whence);
>ssize_t write(int fd, const void *buf, size_t count);
>ssize_t pwrite(int fd, const void *buf, size_t count, off_t offset) {
>lseek(fd, offset, SEEK_SET);
>return write(fd, buf, count);
>}

User code:
  Thread A:
pwrite(fd, "a", 1, 0);
  Thread B:
pwrite(fd, "b", 1, 1);

Libc wrapper:
  Thread A:
lseek(fd, 0, SEEK_SET);
write(fd, "a", 1);
  Thread B:
lseek(fd, 1, SEEK_SET);
write(fd, "b", 1);

If the threads operate at one syscall per wakeup, instead of "ab" the file
will contain "\0ab".  So use a mutex, you'd say?  Try signal handlers then.


For the reverse, implementing write() and seek() by storing the seek
position in a variable, try an O_APPEND file opened by two different
processes, or something unseekable like a tty.


Meow!
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Re: [DNG] Teaching IT & programming

[Christopher Clements]

On Wed, Jul 26, 2017 at 12:22:39PM +0100, Simon Hobson wrote:

"Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult"  wrote:


On 26.07.2017 04:47, Christopher Clements wrote:


My high-school programming class was advertised as teaching people how to
program in C and do all sorts of low-level stuff.  I signed up thinking
I might finally meet a "computer expert" that actually knew what they
were talking about...

The teacher began by forcing us all to make "hello world" applications
IN JAVA!


From "High School" I'm guessing US based ?


Yes.


I imagine there is the same problem over there as it appears there is
over here in the UK - teachers have to teach this stuff, but they aren't
programmers or IT specialists themselves. Similar stories abound of
"inappropriate" (from our PoV) teaching methods etc, and reprobation
for anyone caught "hacking" by doing anything outside of the restricted
teaching syllabus.


I'm not a teacher (thank every religion's diety!), but it seems that in
the US, they are not 'restricted' per se, but are heavily encouraged to
only teach what will be on the next standardized test.

And here I thought that the US had the worst educational system (so
patriotic...).  I guess the grass is always greener on the other side?


[...]

Personally I suspect that none of the "real" programming languages are the
right choice for initial teaching of this sort. Whatever is used needs
to be simple so that the language itself doesn't get in the way of the
task, but powerful enough to be able to teach the principles. Teaching
any specific language is a bad idea - they come and go, fashions change,
but someone who understands the underlying concepts should be able to
pick up a new language fairly quickly.


C89?


So, picking the first example that came into my head ... If someone is
teaching "this is how we code a bubble sort in ${language}" then they are
doing it wrong; someone who teaches "this is how a bubble sort works",
and then "and this is how it's coded in ${language}" is getting there.

And don't get me started on those "IT" courses that teach "how to write
a letter in MS Word" etc :-(


That's "Introduction to Computer Science" at my school.


As to how to fix the shortage of skilled teachers? I suspect that most
people who can do it don't want to teach, and I suspect that many of them
might not make good teachers. Absent the magic money tree that so many
bystanders seem to believe exists (whatever the country or government)
from which their government can pluck unlimited funds, then there won't be
the sort of pay/support/limited class sizes/etc that are needed to fix it.


From what I've heard, the profession is basically volunteer work in
public schools.


[...]

then are asked to repair the teacher's broken/incomplete C++ code,
with lots of template magic (hmm, do we have some hall of shame, where
I can upload his bloat ?).


That's just terrible - and he should be reported for it.


It might not be his fault, perhaps he simply demonstrated that he could
write in Microsoft Word and they gave him the job?


[...]



My concern is that so many will be put off altogether by crap initial
teaching.


Perhaps we can say it's a rite of passage or job security? XD

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Re: [DNG] FWD: [OT] Spammer gone meta

[Jaromil]

also moderated.

thanks for your patience and cooperation

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Re: [DNG] Please keep 32-bits alive

[Christopher Clements]

On Wed, Jul 26, 2017 at 04:00:43PM -0400, Christopher Clements wrote:

Wouldn't this work? (no error checking of course XD)

  off_t lseek(int fd, off_t offset, int whence);
  ssize_t write(int fd, const void *buf, size_t count);
  ssize_t pwrite(int fd, const void *buf, size_t count, off_t offset) {
  lseek(fd, offset, SEEK_SET);
  return write(fd, buf, count);
  }


On Wed, Jul 26, 2017 at 03:36:42PM +0200, Didier Kryn wrote:
   I may be wrong here. What I actually remember is that, in the 
parameters received by the driver, there is an offset were to write to 
or read from. Therefore the current location is managed at a higher 
level, which may well be in the VFS and not in the libc. Sorry for 
that inacuracy.


Oh, maybe it won't.

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Re: [DNG] Please keep 32-bits alive

[Christopher Clements]

On Wed, Jul 26, 2017 at 10:56:13AM +, Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult 
wrote:

On 26.07.2017 09:34, Didier Kryn wrote:


   All languages wrap libc's API with their own primitives: C wraps
unistd's write() within printf() and fwrite()


It doesn't just "wrap" it, it calls it in order to achieve some
higher functionality. These functions only make sense if you're
working with formatted texts. (you *can* use them for binary data,
but that doesn't give any benefit, just slows things down).


and even unistd's write() and seek() are wrappers for kernel's pwrite().


No. Just look at the code. write()+seek() as different semantics
than pwrite(), and they don't even need to be supported by some
particular fd.


Wouldn't this work? (no error checking of course XD)

   off_t lseek(int fd, off_t offset, int whence);
   ssize_t write(int fd, const void *buf, size_t count);
   
   ssize_t pwrite(int fd, const void *buf, size_t count, off_t offset) {

   lseek(fd, offset, SEEK_SET);
   return write(fd, buf, count);
   }



 I tend to consider Javascript as a junk language, but my opinion on it
is not well educated. It might be good for what it was designed for.


Well, it once was designed for tiny things like alert() on a button
click, some trivial input validations, etc. Today, it's totally abused
(and nodejs is even worse). If I could travel back in time, I'd shoot
the guy who introduced that ugly language.


I found "lua.js" .
(Lua is actually pretty good, but running like that?)

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Re: [DNG] flash player for browser

[Martin Steigerwald]

Rüdiger Meier - 26.07.17, 20:04:
> On 07/26/2017 08:01 PM, Haines Brown wrote:
> > On Wed, Jul 26, 2017 at 07:49:56PM +0200, Joachim Fahrner wrote:
> >> Am 2017-07-26 19:40, schrieb Haines Brown:
> >>> I need access an online database, but when I try to do it I get the
> >>> error message that I don't have the latest version of Macromedia Flash
> >>> Player. The site needs Macromedia Flash Player 11.1 or higher.
> >> 
> >> Adobe ceased the flash player supoort for Linux long time ago. And now
> >> they
> >> announced the end of flash player for all platforms. Flash is dead!
> >> 
> >> https://blogs.adobe.com/conversations/2017/07/adobe-flash-update.html
> > 
> > Ah! Thank you.
> > 
> > So then how do I access the database? The files I need to access are
> > newspaper images.
> 
> For such exceptional cases I have google-chrome installed, I has a built-in
> flash player.

chromium + pepperflashplugin-nonfree in case you in case you want the free 
version of Google Chrome without all the stuff Google adds in.

That said, Adobe also updated the Linux flash player recently.

But I think you may need the lastest flashplugin-nonfree package in order to 
automatically download it (since it has hash sums and will accept download 
archives from Adobe with hash sums it knows about)

martin@merkaba:~> rmadison flashplugin-nonfree | cut -c1-65
flashplugin-nonfree | 1:3.2+wheezy1  | oldoldstable/contrib  
flashplugin-nonfree | 1:3.6.1| oldstable-kfreebsd/contrib
flashplugin-nonfree | 1:3.6.1+deb8u1 | oldstable/contrib 
flashplugin-nonfree | 1:3.7  | unstable/contrib

Similar might be true for Pepperflash-Plugin.

However I suggest you also hint that library that Flash is dead and they 
better change their way of distribution media files rather sooner than later.

I removed all flash from my system quite a while ago and I don´t look back.

I think Flash should have gone 20 years ago already.

Thanks,
-- 
Martin
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[DNG] FWD: [OT] Spammer gone meta

[Se7en]

Forwarding this because I thought it funny. Also, what's nettiquite
say about forwarding a forward? Should I remove his portion of the
message?

- Forwarded message from ShieldCurve  -

Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2017 20:39:15 -0400
From: ShieldCurve 
To: mail...@lists.cock.li
Subject: [cock.li] Spammer gone meta
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/52.2.1

The Nigerian scammers are getting too meta for me.


 Forwarded Message 
Subject: WHY YOU SEND SO MUCH MONEY TO THOSE SCAM
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2017 09:56:58 -0700
From: WEST AFRICAN POLICE 
Reply-To: y...@yy.com
 
We are notifying you this afternoon following so many Frauds report
against you from west Africa here, precisely, Ghana, Nigeria and
Benin.From United State FBI and scam Monitoring Teams, we have been
notified through the security agents that so much money has been sent by
United states Citizens to scam experts of the above countries who
neither do not have any of your funds or have idea about that. Most of
this scammers uses names of corporate companies, Individuals and courts
and even the security agencies to scam innocent citizen of their hard
earned income.

Your case is prominent among this victims, as you were reported to have
sent fee to scammers of above countries. And in conjunction with United
states CIA, we are working diligently to get to the root of this. We got
your email address through United states FBI now in investigation
exercise in Africa.

Now, for the sake of your freedom, we will like to know more about your
transactions in west Africa here, and why all the fees are sent. Bear in
mind, The information from FBI says those scammers uses the names of
fake companies, Banks, and corporate institutions to collect fee from
you instead of original right entrusted person EMAIL US(z...@zz.com)
West Africa Security Team

- End forwarded message -

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[DNG] OpenVZ 6 ready with Devuan 1

[Narcis Garcia]

Hello, documentation and containers are written and tested to Devuan 1.0
works as host and as guest:

https://openvz.org/Installation_on_Debian_8
Container templates:
https://openvz.org/Download/template/precreated

OpenVZ 6 remains as one of the most mature and stable solutions for
operating-system-level virtualization.

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Re: [DNG] flash player for browser

[Joachim Fahrner]

Am 2017-07-26 20:01, schrieb Haines Brown:


So then how do I access the database? The files I need to access are
newspaper images.


You can try Google Chrome (not Chromium). AFAIK that's the only browser 
for Linux that still supports Flash.


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Re: [DNG] flash player for browser

[Rüdiger Meier]

On 07/26/2017 08:01 PM, Haines Brown wrote:

On Wed, Jul 26, 2017 at 07:49:56PM +0200, Joachim Fahrner wrote:

Am 2017-07-26 19:40, schrieb Haines Brown:

I need access an online database, but when I try to do it I get the
error message that I don't have the latest version of Macromedia Flash
Player. The site needs Macromedia Flash Player 11.1 or higher.


Adobe ceased the flash player supoort for Linux long time ago. And now they
announced the end of flash player for all platforms. Flash is dead!

https://blogs.adobe.com/conversations/2017/07/adobe-flash-update.html


Ah! Thank you.

So then how do I access the database? The files I need to access are
newspaper images.


For such exceptional cases I have google-chrome installed, I has a built-in
flash player.
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[DNG] flash player for browser

[Haines Brown]

I know the issue of flash player has often come up, but I don't normally
watch videos and so did not pay attention.

I need access an online database, but when I try to do it I get the
error message that I don't have the latest version of Macromedia Flash
Player. The site needs Macromedia Flash Player 11.1 or higher.

Is the Flash Player the same as a flash player plugin for my Iceweasel
browser? The browser flash plugins seem just for playing YouTube. I
already have the YouTube Flashplayer extension installed in my browser.

Discussions simply say to install flashplugin-nonfree. That I've
done. However, that does not provide access to the database. Still get
the error message.

Haines Brown
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Re: [DNG] Teaching IT & programming (Was: Please keep 32-bits alive)

[γραφω λογον]

Yes, please, thank you sirs to the part of the subject line in the 
parentheses.


Yea, that, and that's why I'm here and not in a classroom to Simon's 
original post on the "Teaching IT & programming thread.


Education in the US has nothing to do with Devuan. I'd rather be a 
polite netizen and say thank you sir, Mr. Programmer sir, than take IT 
classes at this point. It was a good decision in 2004 and it's gotten me 
this far, so I'll just say thank you again and let you get back to what 
you were talking about.


Thank you for letting me listen. Thank you for letting me take it in at 
my own pace and look up words I don't understand and learn what 
resonates with me most or what I need to know for some practical purpose 
that is relevant to my own life instead of taking all the prerequisites. 
Thank you for letting me compile my own education from source code 
and/or edit the configuration files in my education to make it relevant 
to the actual hardware I have access to or choose to use. Just thank 
you. Just thank you for being. Just thank you for ignoring this stupid 
email and going back to what you were talking about.


Just thank you.
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[DNG] C++

[Hendrik Boom]

I change the subject line again.  I wish people would do this more often.

On Wed, Jul 26, 2017 at 03:15:46PM +0200, Didier Kryn wrote:
> Le 26/07/2017 à 12:49, Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult a écrit :
> >I wouldn't claim C++ itself is bad, but it seems to have a massive
> >attraction to incompetent people.
> 
> I consider it has been a mess from the beginning.
> 
> The learning curve is so steep that almost nobody is able to write/read
> it correctly, yet it is full of dangers.
> 
> Didier

I find it useful as a way to compile C programs, because it imposes a 
lot of mostly reasonable static type constraints on C code.  If those 
are ever a problem, I can be explicit about them with casts.

And I find methods useful for organising the names of their functions 
by associating them with the data structures they operate on.  But I 
avoid even the simplest inheritance hierarchies.

As for using the more complicated features, forget it.  They are a 
beguiling mess.  Beguiling, but still a mess.

-- hendrik
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Re: [DNG] Please keep 32-bits alive

[Didier Kryn]

Le 26/07/2017 à 15:12, Didier Kryn a écrit :


AFAIK libc's pwrite() is the low-level (minimal) wrapper to the 
linux Write system-call. There isn't the concept of sequential 
read/write to a disk in the kernel and this paradigm is implemented by 
the means of libc's write(). 


I may be wrong here. What I actually remember is that, in the 
parameters received by the driver, there is an offset were to write to 
or read from. Therefore the current location is managed at a higher 
level, which may well be in the VFS and not in the libc. Sorry for that 
inacuracy.


Didier


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Re: [DNG] Please keep 32-bits alive

[Didier Kryn]

Le 26/07/2017 à 12:49, Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult a écrit :

I wouldn't claim C++ itself is bad, but it seems to have a massive
attraction to incompetent people.


I consider it has been a mess from the beginning.

The learning curve is so steep that almost nobody is able to 
write/read it correctly, yet it is full of dangers.


Didier


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Re: [DNG] Please keep 32-bits alive

[Didier Kryn]

Le 26/07/2017 à 12:56, Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult a écrit :



and even unistd's write() and seek() are wrappers for kernel's pwrite().


No. Just look at the code. write()+seek() as different semantics
than pwrite(), and they don't even need to be supported by some
particular fd. 


AFAIK libc's pwrite() is the low-level (minimal) wrapper to the 
linux Write system-call. There isn't the concept of sequential 
read/write to a disk in the kernel and this paradigm is implemented by 
the means of libc's write().


Didier


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Re: [DNG] Teaching IT & programming (Was: Please keep 32-bits alive)

[Simon Hobson]

"Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult"  wrote:

> On 26.07.2017 04:47, Christopher Clements wrote:
> 
>> My high-school programming class was advertised as teaching people how to
>> program in C and do all sorts of low-level stuff.  I signed up thinking
>> I might finally meet a "computer expert" that actually knew what they
>> were talking about...
>> 
>> The teacher began by forcing us all to make "hello world" applications
>> IN JAVA!

From "High School" I'm guessing US based ?
I imagine there is the same problem over there as it appears there is over here 
in the UK - teachers have to teach this stuff, but they aren't programmers or 
IT specialists themselves. Similar stories abound of "inappropriate" (from our 
PoV) teaching methods etc, and reprobation for anyone caught "hacking" by doing 
anything outside of the restricted teaching syllabus.

In large part, that was the purpose behind the Pi - have something cheap enough 
that you can let the children loose on them, and if it breaks, well it gets 
replaced. No-one is going to allow them to be delving inside the expensive 
desktop PCs !

Personally I suspect that none of the "real" programming languages are the 
right choice for initial teaching of this sort. Whatever is used needs to be 
simple so that the language itself doesn't get in the way of the task, but 
powerful enough to be able to teach the principles. Teaching any specific 
language is a bad idea - they come and go, fashions change, but someone who 
understands the underlying concepts should be able to pick up a new language 
fairly quickly.
So, picking the first example that came into my head ... If someone is teaching 
"this is how we code a bubble sort in ${language}" then they are doing it 
wrong; someone who teaches "this is how a bubble sort works", and then "and 
this is how it's coded in ${language}" is getting there.

And don't get me started on those "IT" courses that teach "how to write a 
letter in MS Word" etc :-(

As to how to fix the shortage of skilled teachers ? I suspect that most people 
who can do it don't want to teach, and I suspect that many of them might not 
make good teachers. Absent the magic money tree that so many bystanders seem to 
believe exists (whatever the country or government) from which their government 
can pluck unlimited funds, then there won't be the sort of pay/support/limited 
class sizes/etc that are needed to fix it.

> At our local university, the students (lower semesters) should just
> learn simple things like sorting algorithms (wikipedia level)

Exactly - those are the building blocks that any programmer needs to know 
regardless of language.

> , but
> then are asked to repair the teacher's broken/incomplete C++ code,
> with lots of template magic (hmm, do we have some hall of shame, where
> I can upload his bloat ?).

That's just terrible - and he should be reported for it.

When I was at university, I tried assisting* at a course described as 
"computing for geographers" - and bluntly I felt embarrassed ! It was nothing 
more than a standard "beginners basic" on BBC micros (that dates it) with 
absolutely nothing in there of any use to the typical geographer - and needless 
to say, all the students were left with a "what ?" feeling at the end of it.

* Basically as undergrads, we were just there to assist if someone had a query 
- there being something like 30+ students and only one lecturer. We were told 
to avoid giving them the answers, but refer them to a suitable section of the 
book initially - partly (as one with more experience pointed out) to give us 
chance to go and look up the answer before thy ask again ;-)


>> Please, KEEP DOING WHAT YOU'RE DOING!
>> I have seen our "successors", and they are all brain-dead MCSEs!
>> As members of the steadily-declining demographic of "old-fashioned"
>> hackers, it falls to us to keep things in somewhat-usable states!
> 
> True. OTOH, just let folks make their horrible experiences (just from
> time to time give some little notes about how easy, robust and cheap
> things can be) ... sooner or later they come back to us

My concern is that so many will be put off altogether by crap initial teaching.

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Re: [DNG] Please keep 32-bits alive

[Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult]

On 26.07.2017 09:34, Didier Kryn wrote:


All languages wrap libc's API with their own primitives: C wraps
unistd's write() within printf() and fwrite()


It doesn't just "wrap" it, it calls it in order to achieve some
higher functionality. These functions only make sense if you're
working with formatted texts. (you *can* use them for binary data,
but that doesn't give any benefit, just slows things down).


and even unistd's write() and seek() are wrappers for kernel's pwrite().


No. Just look at the code. write()+seek() as different semantics
than pwrite(), and they don't even need to be supported by some
particular fd.


  I tend to consider Javascript as a junk language, but my opinion on it
is not well educated. It might be good for what it was designed for.


Well, it once was designed for tiny things like alert() on a button
click, some trivial input validations, etc. Today, it's totally abused
(and nodejs is even worse). If I could travel back in time, I'd shoot
the guy who introduced that ugly language.


--mtx

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Re: [DNG] Please keep 32-bits alive

[Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult]

On 26.07.2017 08:55, Didier Kryn wrote:


I totally disagree. Programming low level libc functions and
programming a full-featured web browser aren't the same kind of job at
all and should be done in neither the same state of mind, nor the same
language. Most probably they souldn't be done by the same kind of person.


NAK. Just look at the insanity of Mozilla's or Chrome's bloat.
Large parts of the complexity (which I'm currently trying to reduce)
comes from using C++ by the school books. This just makes modularization
really hard.


And it's one thing when it's a web browser and yet another when it's
a critical software component in an airplane or a nuclear submarine. By
chance, those are certainly not programmed in assembler or in C.


I'm currently working on mozilla (won't touch chrome, as it's even
worse - beyond any hope), and I'm absolutely sure, I would do a better
job in C. But I wouldn't ever have implemented all these misfeatures
in the first place.

And I also did several criticial software. In C, of course. Others in
the project in the project insisted in C++ and huge class stacks for
trivial things - their code was complete bullshit and didn't work.

I wouldn't claim C++ itself is bad, but it seems to have a massive
attraction to incompetent people.


--mtx

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Re: [DNG] Please keep 32-bits alive

[Didier Kryn]

Le 26/07/2017 à 11:06, Adam Borowski a écrit :

On Wed, Jul 26, 2017 at 10:55:32AM +0200, Didier Kryn wrote:

Le 26/07/2017 à 07:52, Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult a écrit :

I think that everyone should have to learn how to write a simple shell
for an 8-bit architecture before they can be considered a real
programmer. ;P

ACK

 I totally disagree. Programming low level libc functions and programming
a full-featured web browser aren't the same kind of job at all and should be
done in neither the same state of mind, nor the same language. Most probably
they souldn't be done by the same kind of person.

Nope, someone coding a web browser needs to know how libc functions work.


All languages wrap libc's API with their own primitives: C wraps 
unistd's write() within printf() and fwrite() and even unistd's write() 
and seek() are wrappers for kernel's pwrite(). This even more true for 
higher level languages.



Programming _on_ a browser indeed could get a pass, but then, it's not like
Javascript is a real programming language... :p



  I tend to consider Javascript as a junk language, but my opinion on it is not 
well educated. It might be good for what it was designed for.



Meow!

Wah! :-)

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Re: [DNG] Please keep 32-bits alive

[Adam Borowski]

On Wed, Jul 26, 2017 at 10:55:32AM +0200, Didier Kryn wrote:
> Le 26/07/2017 à 07:52, Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult a écrit :
> > 
> > > I think that everyone should have to learn how to write a simple shell
> > > for an 8-bit architecture before they can be considered a real
> > > programmer. ;P
> > 
> > ACK
> 
> I totally disagree. Programming low level libc functions and programming
> a full-featured web browser aren't the same kind of job at all and should be
> done in neither the same state of mind, nor the same language. Most probably
> they souldn't be done by the same kind of person.

Nope, someone coding a web browser needs to know how libc functions work.

Programming _on_ a browser indeed could get a pass, but then, it's not like
Javascript is a real programming language... :p


Meow!
-- 
⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ What Would Jesus Do, MUD/MMORPG edition:
⣾⠁⢰⠒⠀⣿⡁ • multiplay with an admin char to benefit your mortal
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ • abuse item cloning bugs (the five fishes + two breads affair)
⠈⠳⣄ • use glitches to walk on water
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Re: [DNG] Please keep 32-bits alive

[Didier Kryn]

Le 26/07/2017 à 07:52, Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult a écrit :



I think that everyone should have to learn how to write a simple shell
for an 8-bit architecture before they can be considered a real
programmer. ;P


ACK



I totally disagree. Programming low level libc functions and 
programming a full-featured web browser aren't the same kind of job at 
all and should be done in neither the same state of mind, nor the same 
language. Most probably they souldn't be done by the same kind of person.


And it's one thing when it's a web browser and yet another when 
it's a critical software component in an airplane or a nuclear 
submarine. By chance, those are certainly not programmed in assembler or 
in C.


Didier


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