Re: [DNG] /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question??
On Sun, Nov 18, 2018 at 02:29:43PM -0600, goli...@dyne.org wrote: > On 2018-11-18 02:32, KatolaZ wrote: > > > > Besides the drama: we built yesterday a preliminary version of the > > debian-installer for beowulf which has an explicit opt-in question for > > usrmerge: > > > > > > https://pkgmaster.devuan.org/devuan/dists/unstable/main/installer-amd64/current/ > > > > and defaults to the classical behaviour (/bin and /sbin proper folders > > under /). Please use the mini.iso, and do not report any bug related > > to desktop thingies not working, since elogind and polkit-stuff are > > not there yet. > > > > Regards > > > > KatolaZ > > > > So . . . if the choice to avoid the merge is only available with > debian-installer what does that mean for the live isos? Will they be > configured with or without the merge as default? That's a decision that > needs to be discussed too. > There is little to discuss, IMHO: we will offer the same choice as in d-i :) KISS KatolaZ -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question??
On Sun, Nov 18, 2018 at 08:52:26PM +, Simon Hobson wrote: > goli...@dyne.org wrote: > > > So . . . if the choice to avoid the merge is only available with > > debian-installer what does that mean for the live isos? Will they be > > configured with or without the merge as default? > > Does it make any difference at all on a live ISO ? If it's setup merged, then > anything referencing /bin (etc) will follow the symlink and access /usr/bin > (etc). > However, as the default for Devuan seems likely to be unmerged, then it would > make sense for the live ISOs to be the same. Scripts etc will have to be > written to deal with the unmerged (split) layout so nothing should break that > way - unless the script is written by someone assuming that nothing in the > world runs unsplit any more. Any such scripts will need fixing to run on > installed systems anyway, so would then run on a live ISO with split > directories. > It does make a difference since we allow to install from the live, using refractainstaller (not d-i). I guess the ISOs themselves will be built without a merged usr, and then we will let the user choose if they want a merged usr in case they decide to install from the live. KISS KatolaZ -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question??
On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 02:11:34AM +0100, Arnt Karlsen wrote: > On Sun, 18 Nov 2018 20:52:26 +, Simon wrote in message > <3a91e5c4-1603-40b5-b560-3f8bc8945...@thehobsons.co.uk>: > > > goli...@dyne.org wrote: > > > > > So . . . if the choice to avoid the merge is only available > > > with debian-installer what does that mean for the live isos? Will > > > they be configured with or without the merge as default? > > > > Does it make any difference at all on a live ISO ? If it's setup > > merged, then anything referencing /bin (etc) will follow the symlink > > and access /usr/bin (etc). However, as the default for Devuan seems > > likely to be unmerged, then it would make sense for the live ISOs to > > be the same. Scripts etc will have to be written to deal with the > > unmerged (split) layout so nothing should break that way - unless the > > script is written by someone assuming that nothing in the world runs > > unsplit any more. Any such scripts will need fixing to run on > > installed systems anyway, so would then run on a live ISO with split > > directories. > > ..worth noting here that some like to use live iso|usb to rescue > systems, or even as system installers, so our live iso|usbs should > be like our target systems. > This is just inconsequential: you can easily have a non-usr-merged live fs which installs on a usr-merged target. KISS KatolaZ -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question??
On Mon, 19 Nov 2018 09:20:58 +0100, KatolaZ wrote in message <20181119082058.dzvrnwrwy3ji5...@katolaz.homeunix.net>: > On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 02:11:34AM +0100, Arnt Karlsen wrote: > > On Sun, 18 Nov 2018 20:52:26 +, Simon wrote in message > > <3a91e5c4-1603-40b5-b560-3f8bc8945...@thehobsons.co.uk>: > > > > > goli...@dyne.org wrote: > > > > > > > So . . . if the choice to avoid the merge is only available > > > > with debian-installer what does that mean for the live isos? > > > > Will they be configured with or without the merge as > > > > default? > > > > > > Does it make any difference at all on a live ISO ? If it's setup > > > merged, then anything referencing /bin (etc) will follow the > > > symlink and access /usr/bin (etc). However, as the default for > > > Devuan seems likely to be unmerged, then it would make sense for > > > the live ISOs to be the same. Scripts etc will have to be written > > > to deal with the unmerged (split) layout so nothing should break > > > that way - unless the script is written by someone assuming that > > > nothing in the world runs unsplit any more. Any such scripts will > > > need fixing to run on installed systems anyway, so would then run > > > on a live ISO with split directories. > > > > ..worth noting here that some like to use live iso|usb to rescue > > systems, or even as system installers, so our live iso|usbs should > > be like our target systems. > > > > This is just inconsequential: you can easily have a non-usr-merged > live fs which installs on a usr-merged target. > > KISS ..precisely, now let the usr-merged fanbois show us usr-merged live iso installers install correctly on non-usr-merged targets. ;o) -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] initramfs?
Alessandro Selli [11/19/18 1:37 AM]: > On 18/11/18 at 10:18, aitor_czr wrote: > >> >> Hendrik, you can uncompress the content of the initrd.img by the >> following way: >> >> 1) Rename it to initrd.gz and use gunzip: >> >> # mv initrd.img initrd.gz >> # gunzip initrd.gz > Sorry to disappoint you, but it Just Doesn't Work. > > Isn't this what "lsinitramfs" and "unmkinitramfs" is for? -- Hilsen Harald ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question??
Hi KatolaZ, KatolaZ writes: > On Sun, Nov 18, 2018 at 04:51:43PM +0900, Olaf Meeuwissen wrote: > > [cut] > >> >> ACK. Just like to point out that Devuan might run into packages that >> have already moved programs that really ought to be in /bin or /sbin >> over to /usr/bin and /usr/sbin. >> >> Image bash getting installed in /usr/bin/bash. With the merged /usr >> scenario that's not a problem because /bin is a symlink to /usr/bin and >> all you #!/bin/bash scripts will continue to work just fine. In the >> non-merged scenario /bin/bash will not exist and all hell breaks loose. >> > > Let's solve first the problems that we have now, instead of trying to > solve the problems that we do not have as yet (and might not ever have > at all), OK? :) > > There is no reason so far for the packagers of basic utilities to > massively move their stuff under /usr/bin and/or /usr/sbin. So let's > keep calm and carry on ;) Sorry to have given a wrong impression but I am perfectly calm and well aware that bash (and other commonly used basic utilities) likely aren't going to move to /usr. I just wanted to point out that this move could happen for somewhat more esoteric packages and that Devuan would then have a bug on its hands. I'm perfectly fine with fixing bugs after they've been found ;-) Let's hope that happens before releasing, though :-) Hope this clarifies, -- Olaf Meeuwissen, LPIC-2FSF Associate Member since 2004-01-27 GnuPG key: F84A2DD9/B3C0 2F47 EA19 64F4 9F13 F43E B8A4 A88A F84A 2DD9 Support Free Softwarehttps://my.fsf.org/donate Join the Free Software Foundation https://my.fsf.org/join ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question??
On 11/18/18 2:28 AM, Arnt Karlsen wrote: 2. What about local compilations of various 3rd party software that usually go to /usr/local/bin, sbin, lib, ... in case of merger will they all go to the root filesystem? More potential trouble? Yes/No? Tnx. ..you want these on its own disk, or at least on their own disk partitions, like your /home tree. Possibly ... but you need to explain that to the 3rd party software programmers. All I have remembered to be compiled from sources locally, went to /usr/local/.. Seems as (un)written consensus; however nobody suggested to have /usr/local/ as a separate partition at install. Misko ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] no-usr-merged: let's get concrete
Hi All, in the last few days we have seen many people going at lengths with the pros and cons of a non-merged usr. That has been a great discussion. We have put together a solution that consists into choosing if you want merged-usr at install time. It's available in the current unstable installer: https://pkgmaster.devuan.org/devuan/dists/unstable/main/installer-amd64/current/images/netboot/mini.iso It would be great for the vocal support against usr-merge to become a concrete piece of help to maintaining choice in Devuan. So if you care, please install beowulf/ceres using the mini.iso above and help testing all the possible scenarios of non-merged /usr, to discover any potential issue/breakage there. Note: the mini.iso is a barebone netinst, and tasksel does not currently work (I am on that). The "Package selection" step will fail. Just skip it, continue with the installation, and then install stuff with apt-get after reboot. Please report bugs on https://bugs.devuan.org. We are currently upgrading many packages in unstable, including reportbug, so either use the reportbug version from ascii or just use reportbug to prepare the report and then send the email it creates to submit[at]bugs.devuan.org Your help is very welcome. HND KatolaZ -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question??
On Sa, Nov 17, 2018 at 09:14:06 +0900, Olaf Meeuwissen wrote: The idea of grouping certain classes of files in different directories makes it just so much easier for homo sapiens to keep a grip on things. Well, I can remember a time when you had a /usr/X11 directory. While this was mostly for X server files some other programs like xv were installed in this place as well. I found it quite usefull because X11 programs are useless if you only have a text console. But this directory vanished long ago. About that not looking all bad, perhaps the merge should be in the other direction, from /usr to / rather than from / to /usr. Or can we expect No, if you want to merge something, everything in /usr is the right way. Then you can really export /usr via NFS to all systems and they have all programs and libraries available. And you only need to update the /usr export. In the current state you have a lot of work to update the exported /usr and the local /bin, /sbin, /lib* directories. So, I'm against a *forced* /usr merge. I hope Debian does the right thing but if necessary, I would like to see Devuan correct the wrong. Yes, for now you have a choice. How long it will last I don’t know. I think it will depend on how many scripts in the wild will start to have lines like „#!/usr/bin/bash” because this is the new place. Shade and sweet water! Stephan -- | Public Keys: http://fsing.rootsland.net/~stse/keys.html | smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question??
On 18/11/18 at 21:29, goli...@dyne.org wrote: > On 2018-11-18 02:32, KatolaZ wrote: >> >> Besides the drama: we built yesterday a preliminary version of the >> debian-installer for beowulf which has an explicit opt-in question for >> usrmerge: >> >> >> https://pkgmaster.devuan.org/devuan/dists/unstable/main/installer-amd64/current/ >> >> >> and defaults to the classical behaviour (/bin and /sbin proper folders >> under /). Please use the mini.iso, and do not report any bug related >> to desktop thingies not working, since elogind and polkit-stuff are >> not there yet. >> >> Regards >> >> KatolaZ >> > > So . . . if the choice to avoid the merge is only available with > debian-installer what does that mean for the live isos? Will they be > configured with or without the merge as default? That's a decision > that needs to be discussed too. > > golinux In my opinion, install CD/DVDs are one case in which the merge makes sense, as you inevitably have a single filesystem on the media anyway. This does not prevent installing an unmerged filesystem, neither makes doing so any more complicated. That I know of, no installer cares what the install media filesystem layout is like when they configure the target filesystem. The target filesystem can use the same filesystem of separate ones for /, /usr, /var, /boot and/or /home and set them up as RAID, LVM or dm-crypt regardless of the install media FS layout. -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question??
On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 01:49:19PM +0100, Alessandro Selli wrote: [cut] > > > In my opinion, install CD/DVDs are one case in which the merge makes > sense, as you inevitably have a single filesystem on the media anyway. > This does not prevent installing an unmerged filesystem, neither makes > doing so any more complicated. That I know of, no installer cares what > the install media filesystem layout is like when they configure the > target filesystem. The target filesystem can use the same filesystem of > separate ones for /, /usr, /var, /boot and/or /home and set them up as > RAID, LVM or dm-crypt regardless of the install media FS layout. > > Alessandro, please help testing the unstable netinst with non-merged usr (see my other email) and report any problem. Trying out things is the best way to see if they work or not ;) My2Cents KatolaZ -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question??
On 19/11/18c at 12:46, Stephan Seitz wrote: > On Sa, Nov 17, 2018 at 09:14:06 +0900, Olaf Meeuwissen wrote: >> The idea of grouping certain classes of files in different directories >> makes it just so much easier for homo sapiens to keep a grip on things. > > Well, I can remember a time when you had a /usr/X11 directory. While > this was mostly for X server files some other programs like xv were > installed in this place as well. > > I found it quite usefull because X11 programs are useless if you only > have a text console. But this directory vanished long ago. I agree, I though it good not having X11 programs in the PATH when I was using the TUI interface only. >> About that not looking all bad, perhaps the merge should be in the other >> direction, from /usr to / rather than from / to /usr. Or can we expect > > No, if you want to merge something, everything in /usr is the right > way. Then you can really export /usr via NFS to all systems and they > have all programs and libraries available. And you only need to update > the /usr export. > > In the current state you have a lot of work to update the exported > /usr and the local /bin, /sbin, /lib* directories. I do not agree. Net-boot systems need a / filesystem anyway, that it's merged with /usr or not. In the case of a partial net-install, / is local and /usr (as well as /home) is remote. In this case in the local / you have everything you need to configure the network and to install /usr over it. In the case of a full net-install, you have to mount the / filesystem over the network, which again will have everything needed to mount any additional filesystem over the net, /usr included. It's not that complicated, in both cases you just need the relevant scripts and config files on the / filesystem that it was local or mounted over the network. LTSP and DRBL have been doing this for many years. You actually have a bonus if you don't do the / -> merge, that is you could have separate / filesystems for different clients that are going to boot over the network (with different settings in /etc, for instance) while they're going to be served all the same /usr filesystem, which is going to simplify the overall NFS layout. >> So, I'm against a *forced* /usr merge. I hope Debian does the right >> thing but if necessary, I would like to see Devuan correct the wrong. > > Yes, for now you have a choice. How long it will last I don’t know. I > think it will depend on how many scripts in the wild will start to > have lines like „#!/usr/bin/bash” because this is the new place. This could happen, but I don't think is going to be a major hassle. Nothing compared to systemd, at least. -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question??
On 19/11/18 at 13:55, KatolaZ wrote: > On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 01:49:19PM +0100, Alessandro Selli wrote: > > [cut] > >> >> In my opinion, install CD/DVDs are one case in which the merge makes >> sense, as you inevitably have a single filesystem on the media anyway. >> This does not prevent installing an unmerged filesystem, neither makes >> doing so any more complicated. That I know of, no installer cares what >> the install media filesystem layout is like when they configure the >> target filesystem. The target filesystem can use the same filesystem of >> separate ones for /, /usr, /var, /boot and/or /home and set them up as >> RAID, LVM or dm-crypt regardless of the install media FS layout. >> >> > Alessandro, please help testing the unstable netinst with non-merged > usr (see my other email) and report any problem. Trying out things is > the best way to see if they work or not ;) I will during the week and will let you know about the outcome, only I doubt I will be able to do it today. > My2Cents ... that are worth a million (or little less). ☺ > KatolaZ -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] no-usr-merged: let's get concrete
On Mon, 19 Nov 2018 12:17:45 +0100, KatolaZ wrote in message <20181119111745.jykbsqvt6gdpw...@katolaz.homeunix.net>: > Hi All, > > in the last few days we have seen many people going at lengths with > the pros and cons of a non-merged usr. That has been a great > discussion. We have put together a solution that consists into > choosing if you want merged-usr at install time. It's available in the > current unstable installer: > > > https://pkgmaster.devuan.org/devuan/dists/unstable/main/installer-amd64/current/images/netboot/mini.iso ..these are correct?: arnt@box:~/devuan$ ll mini.iso &&md5sum mini.iso &&ll -h mini.iso -rw-r--r-- 1 arnt arnt 46137344 Nov 17 20:47 mini.iso 4735f2bb2bf7cd34f65c66b397f8ba42 mini.iso -rw-r--r-- 1 arnt arnt 44M Nov 17 20:47 mini.iso arnt@box:~/devuan$ > > It would be great for the vocal support against usr-merge to become a > concrete piece of help to maintaining choice in Devuan. So if you > care, please install beowulf/ceres using the mini.iso above and help > testing all the possible scenarios of non-merged /usr, to discover any > potential issue/breakage there. > > Note: the mini.iso is a barebone netinst, and tasksel does not > currently work (I am on that). The "Package selection" step will > fail. Just skip it, continue with the installation, and then install > stuff with apt-get after reboot. > > Please report bugs on https://bugs.devuan.org. We are currently > upgrading many packages in unstable, including reportbug, so either > use the reportbug version from ascii or just use reportbug to prepare > the report and then send the email it creates to > submit[at]bugs.devuan.org > > Your help is very welcome. > > HND > > KatolaZ > -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] no-usr-merged: let's get concrete
On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 03:16:29PM +0100, Arnt Karlsen wrote: > On Mon, 19 Nov 2018 12:17:45 +0100, KatolaZ wrote in message > <20181119111745.jykbsqvt6gdpw...@katolaz.homeunix.net>: > > > Hi All, > > > > in the last few days we have seen many people going at lengths with > > the pros and cons of a non-merged usr. That has been a great > > discussion. We have put together a solution that consists into > > choosing if you want merged-usr at install time. It's available in the > > current unstable installer: > > > > > > https://pkgmaster.devuan.org/devuan/dists/unstable/main/installer-amd64/current/images/netboot/mini.iso > > ..these are correct?: > arnt@box:~/devuan$ ll mini.iso &&md5sum mini.iso &&ll -h mini.iso > -rw-r--r-- 1 arnt arnt 46137344 Nov 17 20:47 mini.iso > 4735f2bb2bf7cd34f65c66b397f8ba42 mini.iso > -rw-r--r-- 1 arnt arnt 44M Nov 17 20:47 mini.iso > arnt@box:~/devuan$ o_O That's a test image, but nevertheless, here you go: $ md5sum mini.iso.20181117 4735f2bb2bf7cd34f65c66b397f8ba42 mini.iso.20181117 $ sha256sum mini.iso.20181117 6c81fb0a9cd7c619121878fa7dbcdbfc87dd25c6d563ef5d721125fb16a48784 mini.iso.20181117 HTH KatolaZ -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question??
On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 01:49:19PM +0100, Alessandro Selli wrote: > In my opinion, install CD/DVDs are one case in which the merge makes > sense, as you inevitably have a single filesystem on the media anyway. Such a merge on a single filesystem causes no problems, but has no benefits either. Better to keep all systems the same. Meow! -- ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ Have you heard of the Amber Road? For thousands of years, the ⣾⠁⢰⠒⠀⣿⡁ Romans and co valued amber, hauled through the Europe over the ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ mountains and along the Vistula, from Gdańsk. To where it came ⠈⠳⣄ together with silk (judging by today's amber stalls). ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] no-usr-merged: let's get concrete
On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 12:17:45PM +0100, KatolaZ wrote: > Hi All, > > in the last few days we have seen many people going at lengths with > the pros and cons of a non-merged usr. That has been a great > discussion. We have put together a solution that consists into > choosing if you want merged-usr at install time. It's available in the > current unstable installer: > > > https://pkgmaster.devuan.org/devuan/dists/unstable/main/installer-amd64/current/images/netboot/mini.iso I don't think there's a point in an installer question -- it's trivial to add the merge later with a single apt command. An installer question is pretty costly -- it is seen and has to be answered by everyone who installs at the given debconf level. Thus, such knobs should be reserved for things that 1. make sense to be asked to most people, or 2. would be hard to recover from if not given at install time (like _undoing_ usrmerge). Meow! -- ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ I've read an article about how lively happy music boosts ⣾⠁⢰⠒⠀⣿⡁ productivity. You can read it, too, you just need the ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ right music while doing so. I recommend Skepticism ⠈⠳⣄ (funeral doom metal). ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] no-usr-merged: let's get concrete
On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 04:02:09PM +0100, Adam Borowski wrote: > On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 12:17:45PM +0100, KatolaZ wrote: > > Hi All, > > > > in the last few days we have seen many people going at lengths with > > the pros and cons of a non-merged usr. That has been a great > > discussion. We have put together a solution that consists into > > choosing if you want merged-usr at install time. It's available in the > > current unstable installer: > > > > > > https://pkgmaster.devuan.org/devuan/dists/unstable/main/installer-amd64/current/images/netboot/mini.iso > > I don't think there's a point in an installer question -- it's trivial to > add the merge later with a single apt command. An installer question is > pretty costly -- it is seen and has to be answered by everyone who installs > at the given debconf level. Thus, such knobs should be reserved for things > that 1. make sense to be asked to most people, or 2. would be hard to > recover from if not given at install time (like _undoing_ usrmerge). > We are not saying we will ask the question to all the users. The "knob" will be probably available only in expert install, once we are sure that there are no major issues there, and the default will most probably be non-merged-usr. For testing purposes it makes sense to keep the question there, anyway. Any help with testing stuff that might break in a non-merged /usr environment would be helpful. My2Cents KatolaZ P.S.: I am not so sure about the "unmerge" being so difficult, to be honest, but I might be wrong... -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] no-usr-merged: let's get concrete
On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 04:08:19PM +0100, KatolaZ wrote: > > P.S.: I am not so sure about the "unmerge" being so difficult, to be > honest, but I might be wrong... For unmerging you'd just have to know which files belong where in the unmerged system. That information is should be in the unmerged .deb files themselves. Is there an easier source for this information? -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] no-usr-merged: let's get concrete
On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 10:34:49AM -0500, Hendrik Boom wrote: > On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 04:08:19PM +0100, KatolaZ wrote: > > > > P.S.: I am not so sure about the "unmerge" being so difficult, to be > > honest, but I might be wrong... > > For unmerging you'd just have to know which files belong where in the > unmerged system. That information is should be in the unmerged .deb > files themselves. Is there an easier source for this information? > It's not that easy, since you also have stuff in pre-inst and post-inst. But is should be possible for a large number of packages. My2Cents KatolaZ -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question??
Le 17/11/2018 à 16:15, k...@aspodata.se a écrit : Didier: ... If you want to boot directly to the disk, then don't use a distro. ,,, I boot directly to disk, why shouldn't I use a distro ? I see no downside of using a distro, I just choose what parts I want to use. Would you be kind enough to describe how you do that? (unless you found a distro which does this out of the box). Devuan's init scripts expect to find the OS in a certain state which is achieved after the initramfs sequence and is not done by the sole kernel. Eg /proc, /sys, /run and /dev are supposed to be already mounted. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question??
Le 17/11/2018 à 20:51, Rick Moen a écrit : Quoting Didier Kryn (k...@in2p3.fr): If you want to boot directly to the disk, then don't use a distro. I very much do not concur. Since 1992 -- with a gap when I was lazy for a long time -- I've found it useful to construct bespoke kernels for my systems that compile inline the essential drivers and build as modules drivers that might or might not be needed later at runtime. But nothing about that local policy contraindicates my using a distribution, and never has. I love using Linux distributions, leveraging the work of talented package maintainers so as not to need to revert to the bad old days. Why would I not? The advantages to me are considerable, among those a smaller and faster kernel image, a smaller attack surface, less to go wrong, and eliminating the need for an initramfs. Your dichotomy makes no sense to me. This isn't anything new. Initramfs is the easy way for distros to provide all possible device drivers as module. But some of us don't want all possible dervice drivers as modules. Otherwise, your kernel should be compiled according to the hardware detected by the installer. Sounds good to me. Seems we agree. What I mean is that you must carefully tweak your OS so that the package manager does not undo your settings. It also means that you cannot use kernel updates from the distro because you just don't use the kernel of the distro. You only partly use the distro and do a lot by hand. I do this when necessary (and with a custom initramfs), but certainly not all the time - too much work. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question??
Le 18/11/2018 à 01:21, Miroslav Skoric a écrit : On 11/17/18 3:18 PM, Didier Kryn wrote: The advantage of separating /usr is it can be mounted after boot. /bin and /sbin (and /lib) contain the critical applications (and library) necessary to boot the system, and they are, by necessity, part of the root filesystem. Merging /usr means, actually merging /usr/bin with /bin, /usr/sbin with /sbin and /usr/lib with /lib. Merging /usr means all the bloat from /usr/bin and /usr/lib will now be in /bin and /lib (not so much bloat in /usr/sbin). This has very Two more questions: 1. Installing (too many) software from repositories tends to fill in /usr to the point it screams for space (particularly in older machines with smaller HDD). However it seems to me that the root filesystem is still happy in such cases. But what in case of merger? Can the whole system be rendered unusable? (Or screaming?) 2. What about local compilations of various 3rd party software that usually go to /usr/local/bin, sbin, lib, ... in case of merger will they all go to the root filesystem? More potential trouble? Yes/No? Tnx. Misko Debian/Devuan's /usr fits easily in say 8GB. Hard to find such small disks today. So disk space isn't really an issue in my opinion. I'm not speaking of special embeded or hand-held systems. There is no objection to making /usr/local a mountpoint. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question??
Quoting Didier Kryn (k...@in2p3.fr): > Seems we agree. What I mean is that you must carefully tweak > your OS so that the package manager does not undo your settings. It > also means that you cannot use kernel updates from the distro > because you just don't use the kernel of the distro. You only partly > use the distro and do a lot by hand. I'd say I do very little by hand, and that little bit is largely scripted. (Pretty soon, I'll be handing even that bit off to configuration management software.) Doing otherwise would be too much work. I remember 1992, managing largely hand-built systems with no package management before I became aware of the existence of Slackware. _That_ was doing a lot by hand. This is a trifle. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question??
Quoting Miroslav Skoric (sko...@uns.ac.rs): > Possibly ... but you need to explain that to the 3rd party software > programmers. All I have remembered to be compiled from sources > locally, went to /usr/local/.. Seems as (un)written consensus; > however nobody suggested to have /usr/local/ as a separate partition > at install. Nobody _you_ heard, perhaps, but it's routinely done by us server admins, as there are compelling advantages, e.g., with /usr/local being distinct from /usr, you can have different sets of mount options. Here's how I designed /etc/fstab on a typical server I constructed in the middle 2000s: # ## sda is (obviously) the boot drive. 73 GB SCSI. /dev/sda1 /boot ext2defaults0 2 /dev/sda5 noneswapsw 0 0 /dev/sda6 /varext2noatime,nodev,nosuid 0 2 /dev/sda7 / ext3defaults,errors=remount-ro 0 1 /dev/sda8 /recovery ext3defaults0 2 /dev/sda9 /usrext2nodev,ro0 2 ## sdb and sdc are RAID1 mirrored, except for swap. Each is 18 GB SCSI. /dev/md0/var/wwwext3nodev,nosuid0 2 #sdb5,sdc5 /dev/md1/var/libext3nodev 0 2 #sdb6,sdc6 /dev/md2/var/spool ext3defaults0 2 #sdb7,sdc7 /dev/sdb8 noneswapsw 0 0 /dev/sdc8 noneswapsw 0 0 /dev/md3/home ext3defaults0 2 #sdb9,sbc9 /dev/md4/usr/local ext3defaults0 2 #sdb10,sdc10 These days, I would do it quite differently, especially on account of using SSDs instead of hard drives, so, e.g., there's no need to group filesystems to minimise average seek distance/time on an SSD that inherently doesn't need to perform seek operations in the first place. However, as a detail of the above, notice that /usr is normally mounted read-only, while /usr/local is not. This different requires that they be distinct filesystems. (/usr is also ext2 in this example, as there's no advantage to the overhead of journaling on a filesystem left normally read-only.) In case people are wondering, details of how to keep /usr mounted read-only and still let apt work correctly without manual intervention can be found here: http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2001/debian-devel-200111/msg00212.html Having /usr normally unmounted is an example of routine caution against likely failure modes: That filesystem is where almost all system programs and libs live, and on a typical Linux system is (at least by default and initially) where most of its complexity and disk usage is. It is a tree you as local system administrator wish to protect against mishap. The most likely source of such mishap is: you, the local system administrator. I have /usr normally unmounted in order to have in place a first-level default protection against the worst threat to its orderly management and contents, i.e., against myself. If I am careless with the root-user account and launch a recursive chown of something that would cascade down /usr, for example, it will (by design) fail. Pretty much the only time /usr needs to be mounted read-write is during package operations. For that exact reason, I have a pair of scripts invoked via dpkg hooks (see debian-devel link, above) that remount /usr read-write just before packages get installed or removed, and then remount it read-only again immediately when the package operations are done. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] static /dev: was /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question??
On Sat, 17 Nov 2018 12:29:33 +0100 (CET) k...@aspodata.se wrote: > Rich Moen: > ... > > Moreover, I'm > > sufficiently unhappy with udev that I'm currently testing migration > > away from it to reduce system complexity and protect security. > > mdev's looking promising. (And no, I don't care if it's popular, > > as long as it's popular with me.) > ... > > I use a classic static /dev, and the only problem I have seen is with > usb devices (apart from keyboards and mice i.e.). I might want to follow in your footsteps. How do you handle usb devices? SteveT Steve Litt November 2018 featured book: Manager's Guide to Technical Troubleshooting Brand new, second edition http://www.troubleshooters.com/mgr ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question??
On Sat, 17 Nov 2018 13:03:30 +0100 KatolaZ wrote: > On Sat, Nov 17, 2018 at 12:57:23PM +0100, Alessandro Selli wrote: > > On 16/11/18 at 11:43, KatolaZ wrote: > > > On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 10:19:30AM +, Rowland Penny wrote: > > > > > > [cut] > > > > > >> So, after reading Steve's enlightening description, I am with > > >> him, the merge is only needed by systemd and seems to be a way > > >> of forcing it on everybody, so I am against it. > > >> > > > It would be actually more productive to base this discussion on > > > solid technical arguments. > > > > > > I am one of those who can't do without initramfs because I mostly > > run GNU/Linux on laptops and for obvious security reasons they all > > run on fully encrypted filesystems, / included. > > > > merged usr will be off by default in Devuan Beowulf, with the option > of opting in in expert install, or by installing the usrmerge package > provided in Debian. Nice! SteveT Steve Litt November 2018 featured book: Manager's Guide to Technical Troubleshooting Brand new, second edition http://www.troubleshooters.com/mgr ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question??
Le 19/11/2018 à 19:58, Rick Moen a écrit : Quoting Didier Kryn (k...@in2p3.fr): Seems we agree. What I mean is that you must carefully tweak your OS so that the package manager does not undo your settings. It also means that you cannot use kernel updates from the distro because you just don't use the kernel of the distro. You only partly use the distro and do a lot by hand. I'd say I do very little by hand, and that little bit is largely scripted. Very nice. Congratulations. Do I understand well if I understand your scripts read the config of the Debian kernel and customize it to compile your own kernel? Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] static /dev: was /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question??
On Mon, 19 Nov 2018 15:51:39 -0500 Steve Litt wrote: > On Sat, 17 Nov 2018 12:29:33 +0100 (CET) > k...@aspodata.se wrote: . > > I use a classic static /dev, and the only problem I have seen is > > with usb devices (apart from keyboards and mice i.e.). > > I might want to follow in your footsteps. How do you handle usb > devices? I'm not sure what you asking here. What do you want to do? sudo dmesg | tail when I plug in storage to then mount them. The /dev files are fairly consistent so you could possibly setup auto mount. Otherwise, the system/programs generally handle the device and it should thus be accessible by relevant software, e.g an external USB optical drive I now use instead of fitting DVD/CD drives into every computer. The only problem I've had is hardware that gnu/linux doesn't have drivers or configuration for. E.G.1 My "Epson Perfection V350 photo" usb scanner was not recognised in xsane and I had to ferret out the "device-ids" and add them into the device file referenced for Epson scanners. E.G.2; some cheap webcam device that wasn't "supported' in gnu/linux a few years ago, but now gets bad(intermittent) access under webcamoid, but I'm not motivated to do as above as it is way down the importance list. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question??
Quoting Didier Kryn (k...@in2p3.fr): > Very nice. Congratulations. Do I understand well if I > understand your scripts read the config of the Debian kernel and > customize it to compile your own kernel? I must beg your pardon, Didier, but I don't fully understand your question. In general terms: I've long ago gotten used to the idea that, on the rare occasions when it's desirable to change a system's kernel, I just am used to carrying forward the existing .config file and using make-kpkg(1). It's too infrequent an operation to fully script, at least in my use-case. It's not necessary or useful for any scripting to parse the kernal .config, as far as I'm aware. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question??
Didier: > Le 17/11/2018 à 16:15, k...@aspodata.se a écrit : > > Didier: > >> If you want to boot directly to the disk, then don't use a distro. > > I boot directly to disk, why shouldn't I use a distro ? > > I see no downside of using a distro, I just choose what parts I want > > to use. > Would you be kind enough to describe how you do that? (unless you > found a distro which does this out of the box). Devuan's init scripts > expect to find the OS in a certain state which is achieved after the > initramfs sequence and is not done by the sole kernel. Eg /proc, /sys, > /run and /dev are supposed to be already mounted. Don't know much how devuan sysv init files does it, I am currently testing out busybox init and I just have a /etc/rcS file that takes my computer to the state I wish it to end up in, kind of 80'th bsd rc style. Regards, /Karl Hammar --- Aspö Data Lilla Aspö 148 S-742 94 Östhammar Sweden ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] static /dev: was /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question??
Steve Litt: > On Sat, 17 Nov 2018 12:29:33 +0100 (CET) > k...@aspodata.se wrote: ... > > I use a classic static /dev, and the only problem I have seen is with > > usb devices (apart from keyboards and mice i.e.). > > I might want to follow in your footsteps. How do you handle usb devices? Basically, I don't. For mice and keyboard, they just only need to have their driver loaded. For storage devices, just load usb-storage and mount it, there are various ways to find out the /dev/sd* file used. For other usb devices, I hav not tested much, but I guess you have to minic that udev does to find the right module to load, and then you have to find out which major/minor number to use etc. Regards, /Karl Hammar --- Aspö Data Lilla Aspö 148 S-742 94 Östhammar Sweden ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question??
On Sat, 17 Nov 2018 13:25:19 -0800 Rick Moen wrote: > Quoting Daniel Reurich:: > > > I don't want it. > > My view seems to coincide with Rich Moens. > > I'm still curious who these Rich Moens are. Perhaps a clone > conspiracy as in Orphan Black -- or a franchise like Dread Pirate > Roberts[tm]? ;-> The Rich Moens are the multimillionaire family who sell Moen faucets. SteveT Steve Litt November 2018 featured book: Manager's Guide to Technical Troubleshooting Brand new, second edition http://www.troubleshooters.com/mgr ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
