Re: [DNG] Added desktop-live to the install guides
On 02-01-19 01:53, goli...@dyne.org wrote: > On 2019-01-01 15:25, info at smallinnovations dot nl wrote: >> >> We do not have to write specific Windows guides to mention Unetbootin >> which will work for Linux, Windows and Mac. >> >> Of course we will have to tell the authors of Unetbootin to add Devuan >> to the pre-selected distros to make it complete. >> >> Grtz. >> >> Nick >> > > Would you be willing to contact them about this? > > Thanks, > > golinux > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng No need for that, they have a relative simple way to add your own distro: https://github.com/unetbootin/unetbootin/wiki/newdistro Grtz Nick signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [OT] Attention deficit and consciousness
On Wed, 2 Jan 2019 08:02:05 -0500, Hendrik wrote in message <20190102130204.dqkqd5xcu5npv...@topoi.pooq.com>: > Starting new OT thread: > > n Wed, Jan 02, 2019 at 07:42:51AM -0500, Hendrik Boom wrote: > > On Wed, Jan 02, 2019 at 02:50:27PM +0300, Andres Suarez wrote: > > > В Ср, 02/01/2019 в 00:48 -0600, goli...@dyne.org пишет: > > > > On 2019-01-01 23:46, Edward Bartolo via Dng wrote: > > > > > On 02/01/2019, goli...@dyne.org wrote: > > > > > > On 2019-01-01 21:37, Steve Litt wrote: > > > > > > > The degree of attentiveness we now > > > > > > > demand in our workplaces has been a positive trait > > > > > > > for only a couple centuries, and genetics hasn't caught > > > > > > > up. So blame is counterproductive. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I beg to differ. It's not in the genetics. It's in how we > > > > > > choose to live. The level of consciousness in parts of the > > > > > > world hundreds of years > > > > > > BC surpasses what we are capable of today. ..I would blame reality shows, soap operas and quickie TV news for much of this development over the last 45 years I've seen this coming, they discourage learning, compassion and wisdom, and encourage cleverness, mocking, intrigues, "climate change critique" and fear of "terrorism" needed to prepare taxpaying Joe Sixpacks for the "inevitable" narrative "that it is too late to save" those hardest hit by climate change used as a tool for racism, "we must concentrate on what we can save, our own with the unfortunate but neccessary force", which will work fine on CO2, and leaves the surviving "master race" shit out of luck and the manpower needed to contain the permafrost methane gas in and around the Arctic Ocean. ..do the gas math on this chicken race now, and act on it now while we can fix it, or wind up like the Jews in Auschwitz. > > > > > > Our individual > > > > > > traits/skills/talents are the resultants of the quality of > > > > > > our past actions over millennia. IOW we start a life with > > > > > > what what is commensurate to whom we have been. So choose > > > > > > wisely. > > I certainly am not millenia old; my actions don't data back even a > hundred years, ..these days we are able to learn from history and science and draw our own conclusions on e.g. how to fit rocks together as nicely as in Mayan and Egyptic pyramids in the alleged Pharaoic time frame, or on Atlantis washed away by megatsunamis from volcanos, Greenland ice sheet asteroid impacts, Storegga subsea landslides or common sea level rise overtopping the Bosporus land bridge damming off the alleged Biblical Deluge, or on the number of remote controlled airliner hijackings on 9/11...: https://21stcenturywire.com/2014/08/07/flight-control-boeings-uninterruptible-autopilot-system-drones-remote-hijacking/ ..to convict Osama bin Laden under US Law, you must prove beyond any reasonable doubt, that the number of remote controlled airliner hijackings on 9/11 is zero, which again requires the recovery of all bits 'n pieces of the avionics aboard all 4 hijacked airliners, to prove said bits 'n pieces never contained the hardware nor the software neccessary to use this 1984 remote control technology on 9/11/2001... > > > > > > golinux > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What 'consciousness' you are talking about?! > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am talking about the consciousness/awareness that receives > > > > data in the form of eye:sights, ear:sounds, nose:smells, > > > > tongue:tastes, body:physical sensations and mind:thoughts. It > > > > is the mere reception of these stimuli that turns our inner > > > > world and outer world so it's to our advantage to get to know > > > > the interaction between stimulation and response intimately. > > > > > > > > Without great awareness in the present moment, we are carried > > > > along by emotional reactions to events instead of actually > > > > knowing and understanding them. More often than not, that > > > > impulsive reactiveness brings us much misery and pain. But if > > > > that same consciousness is harnessed to focus on this > > > > never-ending stream of events moment to moment, it begins to > > > > understand them in a very different way and changes the mind at > > > > a fundamental level. > > > > > > > > The ability to touch that understanding has declined over the > > > > last 2500+ years and there will come a time when that knowledge > > > > will be forgotten. But it will be rediscovered sometime in the > > > > very distant future because it it cyclical as all things are. > > > > > > > > golinux > > > > > > > Beg pardon for the interruption: but actually that ability has > > > increased in the last millennia. What hominids had 2500+ years > > > ago was a primitive sense of reality, which gave rise to all that > > > mysticism which prevails so far. Consciousness, defined as > > > advanced awareness, was the last part to develop. > > > > > > That function allows you to build "Devuan Li
Re: [DNG] Fwd: Re: What should an Install Guide accomplish?
Quoting chillfan--- via Dng (dng@lists.dyne.org): > I can only agree with that. > > My reservations about doing this are mostly been because of our target > audience, and not wanting to exclude the more savvy users. > > But there's nothing wrong with doing this in a side project that > wouldn't go on the main website. One realises over time that people differ widely in their ways of assessing information. So, ideally, one does iterative usability checking with real (outsider) users, to spot the problems. It's unfortunately rare to have the time and personnel to do so, though. Example from outside of the Devuan context: For many year, I've maintained Web pages for multiple Linux user groups in my area, and among those were the 'directions' pages explaining how to get to meetings via car and various forms of public transit. When I inherited maintenance of Silicon Valley Linux User Group's pages, for example, its directions page was a horribly overlong, ridiculously overcomplicated mess that spent, among other things, two whole paragraphs explaining how to safely cross the light rail tracks. I pruned mercilessly to make the page short and snappy -- but then also pondered _different ways_ to navigate. After a lot of checking, I conceptually divided users of such directions pages into two groups: map people and directions people. Map people (like me) needed a good map plus the street address and cross-street, so I made sure they had those. For the directions people, I made sure there were succinct process descriptions from probably starting points, street by street with turns and distances or block counts, and sometimes 'If you see [X], you've gone too far.' Both groups seemed well enough served after that. But then the world changed after some years, and I realised there was a third, growing group: smartphone addicts -- ones who react irritably if you try to tell them anything beyond street address, i.e., they seem like directions people until they tell you they have absolutely no interest in cross-streets. Of course, they were already provided for by the street address, but could be best served by making the address prominent, e.g., with tags. I hope that's a reasonable example of the 'people assess information in diverse ways' challenge. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Added desktop-live to the install guides
On 2019-01-02 05:50, Andres Suarez wrote: В Ср, 02/01/2019 в 00:48 -0600, goli...@dyne.org пишет: On 2019-01-01 23:46, Edward Bartolo via Dng wrote: > On 02/01/2019, goli...@dyne.org wrote: > > On 2019-01-01 21:37, Steve Litt wrote: > > > The degree of attentiveness we now > > > demand in our workplaces has been a positive trait for only a > > > couple centuries, and genetics hasn't caught up. So blame is > > > counterproductive. > > > > > > > I beg to differ. It's not in the genetics. It's in how we choose to > > live. The level of consciousness in parts of the world hundreds of > > years > > BC surpasses what we are capable of today. Our individual > > traits/skills/talents are the resultants of the quality of our past > > actions over millennia. IOW we start a life with what what is > > commensurate to whom we have been. So choose wisely. > > > > golinux > > > > What 'consciousness' you are talking about?! > I am talking about the consciousness/awareness that receives data in the form of eye:sights, ear:sounds, nose:smells, tongue:tastes, body:physical sensations and mind:thoughts. It is the mere reception of these stimuli that turns our inner world and outer world so it's to our advantage to get to know the interaction between stimulation and response intimately. Without great awareness in the present moment, we are carried along by emotional reactions to events instead of actually knowing and understanding them. More often than not, that impulsive reactiveness brings us much misery and pain. But if that same consciousness is harnessed to focus on this never-ending stream of events moment to moment, it begins to understand them in a very different way and changes the mind at a fundamental level. The ability to touch that understanding has declined over the last 2500+ years and there will come a time when that knowledge will be forgotten. But it will be rediscovered sometime in the very distant future because it it cyclical as all things are. golinux Beg pardon for the interruption: but actually that ability has increased in the last millennia. What hominids had 2500+ years ago was a primitive sense of reality, which gave rise to all that mysticism which prevails so far. Consciousness, defined as advanced awareness, was the last part to develop. That function allows you to build "Devuan Linux" instead of mixing with the sheep. You are confusing "thinking" which observes and manipulates external data with "knowing" which is a highly developed internal awareness of how incoming data interacts with our sensory organs and how that in turn generates unconscious knee-jerk emotional reactions that can lead to rather unpleasant, harmful consequences. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Fwd: Re: What should an Install Guide accomplish?
I can only agree with that. My reservations about doing this are mostly been because of our target audience, and not wanting to exclude the more savvy users. But there's nothing wrong with doing this in a side project that wouldn't go on the main website. Cheers, chillfan ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐ On Wednesday, January 2, 2019 2:11 AM, wrote: > > Feel free to open a project in our gitlab for us to review. > publickey - chillfan@protonmail.com - 0xB179B25B.asc Description: application/pgp-keys signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Fwd: Re: What should an Install Guide accomplish?
> On Tue, 1 Jan 2019 19:04:32 -0800 > Rick Moen wrote: > > Yes, but in a "how to do it" document (like documentation on a distro's > install procedure), once you've articulated the steps and substeps and > what could go wrong and how to deal with it, you're done. Any requests > for further info, such as theoretical underpinnings, can be done in a > separate document. I always want more information before I start a compilcated procedure, especially if that complicated procedure is mostly automated so that I don't have to attend the details. I always want to understand the theoretical underpinnings. That said, once I do understand, I want a compact exposition of the steps and substeps I have to follow as I follow them. The document I want is such a compact exposition, but with links to the theoretical underpinnings. It drives me crazy not to know what's really going on. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] SOLVED: slashes in FAT file names
On Wed, Jan 02, 2019 at 09:34:16AM +0100, Didier Kryn wrote: > > Do I understand correctly that WxHexEdit can edit directories in place? It did. On a VFAT file system on an SDHC card. I suspect if it had been a btrfs file system I might have had trouble with the checksum, though. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] [OT] Attention deficit and consciousness
Starting new OT thread: n Wed, Jan 02, 2019 at 07:42:51AM -0500, Hendrik Boom wrote: > On Wed, Jan 02, 2019 at 02:50:27PM +0300, Andres Suarez wrote: > > В Ср, 02/01/2019 в 00:48 -0600, goli...@dyne.org пишет: > > > On 2019-01-01 23:46, Edward Bartolo via Dng wrote: > > > > On 02/01/2019, goli...@dyne.org wrote: > > > > > On 2019-01-01 21:37, Steve Litt wrote: > > > > > > The degree of attentiveness we now > > > > > > demand in our workplaces has been a positive trait for only a > > > > > > couple centuries, and genetics hasn't caught up. So blame is > > > > > > counterproductive. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I beg to differ. It's not in the genetics. It's in how we choose to > > > > > live. The level of consciousness in parts of the world hundreds of > > > > > years > > > > > BC surpasses what we are capable of today. Our individual > > > > > traits/skills/talents are the resultants of the quality of our past > > > > > actions over millennia. IOW we start a life with what what is > > > > > commensurate to whom we have been. So choose wisely. I certainly am not millenia old; my actions don't data back even a hundred years, > > > > > > > > > > golinux > > > > > > > > > > > > > What 'consciousness' you are talking about?! > > > > > > > > > > I am talking about the consciousness/awareness that receives data in the > > > form of eye:sights, ear:sounds, nose:smells, tongue:tastes, > > > body:physical sensations and mind:thoughts. It is the mere reception of > > > these stimuli that turns our inner world and outer world so it's to our > > > advantage to get to know the interaction between stimulation and > > > response intimately. > > > > > > Without great awareness in the present moment, we are carried along by > > > emotional reactions to events instead of actually knowing and > > > understanding them. More often than not, that impulsive reactiveness > > > brings us much misery and pain. But if that same consciousness is > > > harnessed to focus on this never-ending stream of events moment to > > > moment, it begins to understand them in a very different way and changes > > > the mind at a fundamental level. > > > > > > The ability to touch that understanding has declined over the last 2500+ > > > years and there will come a time when that knowledge will be forgotten. > > > But it will be rediscovered sometime in the very distant future because > > > it it cyclical as all things are. > > > > > > golinux > > > > > Beg pardon for the interruption: but actually that ability has increased in > > the last millennia. What hominids had 2500+ years ago was a primitive sense > > of reality, which gave rise to all that mysticism which prevails so far. > > Consciousness, defined as advanced awareness, was the last part to develop. > > > > That function allows you to build "Devuan Linux" instead of mixing with > > the sheep. > THose interested in looking into the development of consciousness further should probably start by reading "The Strange Order of Thinkg" by Antonio Damasio. It is speculative, but at least grounded in what's currently known about evolution and neuroscience. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] [OT] Attention deficit and consciousness
On Wed, Jan 02, 2019 at 02:50:27PM +0300, Andres Suarez wrote: > В Ср, 02/01/2019 в 00:48 -0600, goli...@dyne.org пишет: > > On 2019-01-01 23:46, Edward Bartolo via Dng wrote: > > > On 02/01/2019, goli...@dyne.org wrote: > > > > On 2019-01-01 21:37, Steve Litt wrote: > > > > > The degree of attentiveness we now > > > > > demand in our workplaces has been a positive trait for only a > > > > > couple centuries, and genetics hasn't caught up. So blame is > > > > > counterproductive. > > > > > > > > > > > > > I beg to differ. It's not in the genetics. It's in how we choose to > > > > live. The level of consciousness in parts of the world hundreds of > > > > years > > > > BC surpasses what we are capable of today. Our individual > > > > traits/skills/talents are the resultants of the quality of our past > > > > actions over millennia. IOW we start a life with what what is > > > > commensurate to whom we have been. So choose wisely. > > > > > > > > golinux > > > > > > > > > > What 'consciousness' you are talking about?! > > > > > > > I am talking about the consciousness/awareness that receives data in the > > form of eye:sights, ear:sounds, nose:smells, tongue:tastes, > > body:physical sensations and mind:thoughts. It is the mere reception of > > these stimuli that turns our inner world and outer world so it's to our > > advantage to get to know the interaction between stimulation and > > response intimately. > > > > Without great awareness in the present moment, we are carried along by > > emotional reactions to events instead of actually knowing and > > understanding them. More often than not, that impulsive reactiveness > > brings us much misery and pain. But if that same consciousness is > > harnessed to focus on this never-ending stream of events moment to > > moment, it begins to understand them in a very different way and changes > > the mind at a fundamental level. > > > > The ability to touch that understanding has declined over the last 2500+ > > years and there will come a time when that knowledge will be forgotten. > > But it will be rediscovered sometime in the very distant future because > > it it cyclical as all things are. > > > > golinux > > > Beg pardon for the interruption: but actually that ability has increased in > the last millennia. What hominids had 2500+ years ago was a primitive sense > of reality, which gave rise to all that mysticism which prevails so far. > Consciousness, defined as advanced awareness, was the last part to develop. > > That function allows you to build "Devuan Linux" instead of mixing with > the sheep. At this point, the discussion has gone off-topic. I think it's still worthwhile, but it should at least start a new thread with a new subject. I've given it a new subject, but am placing it in this thread anyway so people will see it here and look for or start the new thread instead of going on here. -- hendrik > -- > Андрес Суарес > мобильник +79310009732 > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Added desktop-live to the install guides
В Ср, 02/01/2019 в 00:48 -0600, goli...@dyne.org пишет: > On 2019-01-01 23:46, Edward Bartolo via Dng wrote: > > On 02/01/2019, goli...@dyne.org wrote: > > > On 2019-01-01 21:37, Steve Litt wrote: > > > > The degree of attentiveness we now > > > > demand in our workplaces has been a positive trait for only a > > > > couple centuries, and genetics hasn't caught up. So blame is > > > > counterproductive. > > > > > > > > > > I beg to differ. It's not in the genetics. It's in how we choose to > > > live. The level of consciousness in parts of the world hundreds of > > > years > > > BC surpasses what we are capable of today. Our individual > > > traits/skills/talents are the resultants of the quality of our past > > > actions over millennia. IOW we start a life with what what is > > > commensurate to whom we have been. So choose wisely. > > > > > > golinux > > > > > > > What 'consciousness' you are talking about?! > > > > I am talking about the consciousness/awareness that receives data in the > form of eye:sights, ear:sounds, nose:smells, tongue:tastes, > body:physical sensations and mind:thoughts. It is the mere reception of > these stimuli that turns our inner world and outer world so it's to our > advantage to get to know the interaction between stimulation and > response intimately. > > Without great awareness in the present moment, we are carried along by > emotional reactions to events instead of actually knowing and > understanding them. More often than not, that impulsive reactiveness > brings us much misery and pain. But if that same consciousness is > harnessed to focus on this never-ending stream of events moment to > moment, it begins to understand them in a very different way and changes > the mind at a fundamental level. > > The ability to touch that understanding has declined over the last 2500+ > years and there will come a time when that knowledge will be forgotten. > But it will be rediscovered sometime in the very distant future because > it it cyclical as all things are. > > golinux > Beg pardon for the interruption: but actually that ability has increased in the last millennia. What hominids had 2500+ years ago was a primitive sense of reality, which gave rise to all that mysticism which prevails so far. Consciousness, defined as advanced awareness, was the last part to develop. That function allows you to build "Devuan Linux" instead of mixing with the sheep. -- Андрес Суарес мобильник +79310009732 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] What should an Install Guide accomplish?
On Wed, Jan 02, 2019 at 06:39:57PM +1100, Ralph Ronnquist via Dng wrote: > Concise is perfect, if comprehensive, within reason. And, perhaps gilded > by a (growing?) collection of links to "user stories"? > > Ralph. > +1 I would just recommend one single thing: KISS. Most users tend to *not* read documentation at all. Actually, the more documentation you provide, the less the documentation is used. Moreover, the less experienced a user is, the shorter the time and the smaller the attention they will normally put into reading docs. This has been proven time and again by the very same simple questions being asked here, on IRC, and on dev1galaxy (one example for all: "What is the default root password in the Devuan live images?"), while those questions could have been avoided by a quick read through the Release Notes or the README.txt file accompanying each iso. If we need to have an install guide, let's just put images and short comments in there, IMHO. Most of the rest will be ignored anyway. My2Cents KatolaZ -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] SOLVED: slashes in FAT file names
Quoting Didier Kryn (k...@in2p3.fr): > Do I understand correctly that WxHexEdit can edit directories in place? Looks like wxHexEditor can edit just about anything in place. https://www.wxhexeditor.org/home.php (The SourceForge download page claims it's GPLv2.) ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] SOLVED: slashes in FAT file names
Le 02/01/2019 à 00:22, Hendrik Boom a écrit : On Fri, Dec 21, 2018 at 10:23:14PM -0500, Hendrik Boom wrote: I have a 32GiB microSD card an am reying to read it on my Devuan system. I munted it with a simpel mount /dev/sdb1 /nedia/hendrik/ It reads almost everything fine, except for a few files whose names contain '/' characters. I can handle the other horribly weird characters in file names -- emacs Rename in the directory editor works just fine. But the names containing '/'s even have emacs stymied. ls -l lists them like this: -rw-r--r-- 1 hendrik hendrik 0 Sep 1 2007 06 - Track 6.mq3 -? ? ? ? ?? 07/TRA~1.MP3 -rw-r--r-- 1 hendrik hendrik 3585716 Sep 1 2007 08-URA~1.MP3 With the slash, it can't even figure out the permissions, ownership, or file size. Preumably some parts of the system interpret the '/' as the directory name separator, and in this file system that's not what it is. Does anyone have any ideas here other than begging, borrowing, or buying a Windows system? Thanks for all the advice. Most of it was instructive, and some was actually useful. Didier, thanks for telling me about openat. It won't work here, but it will be useful in another project I have. Not really me. Was Karl Hammar. I had discarded it without telling to the list, maybe too quickly... I haven't tried fsck.fat. I tried magicrescue. But it kept finding many many starts for mp3 files, and running a script for each one to see if it was really and mp3 file, in the course of which writing file hundreds of megbytes long, deciding it wasn't mp3 after all and deleting it. Far too slow. Running for a full 18 hours found nothing, and it looked as if it had searched ony a fraction of the 32G SDXC card. I then used WxHexEdit, a hex editor, in immediate update mode. Do I understand correctly that WxHexEdit can edit directories in place? It found the troublesome file names, and I replaced the slashes by zeros. After that it was easy to read those files. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Fwd: Re: What should an Install Guide accomplish?
On Wed, 2 Jan 2019 00:18:19 -0500 Steve Litt wrote: > On Tue, 1 Jan 2019 19:04:32 -0800 > Rick Moen wrote: > > > Quoting goli...@dyne.org (goli...@dyne.org): > > > > [much concentrated wisdom] > > > > > The best documemntation will be useless if no one reads it. > > [...] > > > Even though information is already available on the site and > > > elsewhere, quite often there will be questions that could be > > > readily answered with a little effort on the user's part. So it > > > is not a lack of information problem but a "you can't fix stupid" > > > problem. Bloating the guide won't change that human behavior. > > > > Reminds me of a couple of things I've realised through many years > > observing where documentation and user education works and where it > > doesn't -- and pondering why. First of two is this: > > > > http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/lexicon.html#moenslaw-documentation > > > > Moen's Law of Documentation > > > > "The more you write, the less they read." > > Not true, if you structure the writing correctly. Especially now that > we have hyperlinks, it's easy to write good and non-ambiguous docs. > The problem is, people ignore hyperlinks Rowland ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
