Re: [DNG] Systemd as tragedy
On Fri, Feb 01, 2019 at 08:49:34PM +0100, Alessandro Selli wrote: > On 01/02/19 at 11:19, KatolaZ wrote: > > [about 100 lines cut off] > > > Jeez, that many? My wife was right that I got to bed too late > yesterday night! > > > > Are you willing to help with enabling s6/s6-rc in Devuan? > > > Oh my, that means I'll have to upgrade to Beowulf! And spend lots of > time tuning and reporting about it. > > When will I ever fix that leaking tap in the bathroom? 洛 > > > > There will > > be a talk by its author (Laurent bercot) and a dedicated hacking > > session at the Devuan Conference in Amsterdam. More info closer to the > > date. > > > Too bad I'll not be able to attend. I wished I was. Me neither. Medical constraints prevent me from travelling. I used to live in Amsterdam and have a dear friend there whom I haven't seen in over a decade. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Systemd as tragedy
On Thu, 31 Jan 2019 14:56:45 +0300 Dmitrii Kashin wrote: > I'd like to notice that Benno just repeats systemd's propaganda. All > these theses were considered in 2014 by Jude Nelson. > > Here's the link: > http://judecnelson.blogspot.com/2014/09/systemd-biggest-fallacies.html > > And (if someone is interested) here's my russian translation: > https://www.opennet.ru/base/sys/systemd_myth.txt.html Yes! I forgot to mention Jude's fallacies when writing my response to Rice's presentation. Please read Jude's fallacies before reading my response. SteveT -- Steve Litt January 2019 featured book: Troubleshooting: Just the Facts http://www.troubleshooters.com/tjust ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Systemd as tragedy
On Thu, 31 Jan 2019 13:07:37 + Simon Hobson wrote: > It's clear that systemd isn't the right implementation. And it's > clear that Poettering isn't the right person to be doing it. But I'd > suggest that many of us "systemd - just say no" folks aren't > fundamentally opposed to improvements where the improvement is > actually better and not a bug ridden furball' Yes! As a matter of fact, a system to recognize and mount newly plugged thumb drives was developed right here on this list. SteveT -- Steve Litt January 2019 featured book: Troubleshooting: Just the Facts http://www.troubleshooters.com/tjust ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Systemd as tragedy
On Wed, 30 Jan 2019 16:38:28 -1000 Joel Roth via Dng wrote: > On Thu, Jan 31, 2019 at 12:19:44AM +0100, Alessandro Selli wrote: > > Might interest someone: > > > > https://lwn.net/Articles/777595/ > > > > [Front] Posted Jan 28, 2019 20:05 UTC (Mon) by corbet > > > > His attempt to cast that story for the > > pleasure of his audience resulted in a sympathetic and nuanced look > > at a turbulent chapter in the history of the Linux system. > > Hard to believe I listened to the same talk Corbet > is describing. What I heard was a propaganda piece, > finding reasons to sell the systemd approach > to BSD conference attendees. > > To Benno Rice, the tragedy is the pathetic opposition > to what he construes as the inevitable forces of > progress and rationality. I watched the following video of Benno Rice's presentation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AeWu1fZ7bY This presentation is despicable. He's taken every the same tired flawed arguments from Poettering's writings, and filed off the patented Poettering nasty haughtiness so it sounds, well, rational. But it is still founded on Poettering's original fallacies. And if Rice is even 1/4 as smart as he appears to be, he knows darn well this stuff is false. +++ Note: Rice refers many times to "rc". That's what he calls the BSD init system, or at least the part spawned by PID1. +++ 17:57 The king of all this video's fallacies occurs at 17:57, where he "refutes" "objection" "It's bloated and monolithic." He trots out Poettering's old refutation that systemd is made from many binaries, and he says it all fits together to deliver a "system layer" for Linux. Most intelligent Linux users have rebutted such nonsense: Here's my rebuttal, in cartoon form: http://troubleshooters.com/linux/systemd/lol_systemd.htm Lot's of component binaries, but every single one of them requires an incredibly complex (and therefore error prone) interface, which in turn almost completely eliminates interchangeable parts, making repairability much more difficult and limiting opportunities to DIY. I recently heard a quote on NPR radio that 50 years ago you could start an auto repair shop with a lift and a couple hundred dollars of tools, but now it takes a million dollars of diagnostic equipment. This is the cost of complexity. Of course, with cars, this complexity is partially necessary because to raise MPG (Miles Per Gallon) you need a computer to micromanage timing and amount of spark, air, fuel, and how they interact. I know of no similar necessity with computers. Systemd forces more of your management and repair to be outsourced to a specialty house with the right tools and knowledge, instead of repairing it in-house with interchangeable parts and the test points those parts introduce. [LITT'S NOTE: I say this in spite of the snazzy layer of meters and test points which systemd bestows after epoxying off your real OS functionality] Not good for the computer's owner, very good for those specialty houses, of which Redhat leads the pack. The fact that systemd is a grossly entangled monolith of custom-made pieces incompatible with pieces not made by the systemd folks is reason enough to stay way away from systemd. 8:33 "What the traditional rc system really doesn't do is automated service management. You can bring in other tools to do that like runit or supervisord or other things, but that is bringing in third party stuff that thinks a bit differently to the way that everything else does, and so you kinda need to [stutter] it's this other notion of bringing in other things that you suddenly have to think of the way it thinks, the way your servicing manager thinks, and various other things, which again --- we kinda get used to, like if you pick runit and install it you kinda get used to the way runit thinks, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the impedence mismatch between what runit does and what rc does is good." Wow, where to start? He first names runit (and supervisord) as doing the "automated service management" as well as systemd does. But then, to make monstrosity systemd look better than solid and simple runit (and s6 and daemontools, which he forgot), he invents an "impedance mismatch" between runit and rc to downgrade runit. I have a BSEE degree, I know what impedance mismatch is, and I can tell you the only way you get an "impedance mismatch" within software is if you're using a circuit emulation program. Reminds me of guys who go around trying to impress women by injecting, in worldly fashion, words like "entropy" and "energy" in discussions of day to day life. Rice really should have left the pseudo-science at home, with his flat earth and "smoking is not hazardous" stuff. There's no impedance mismatch, and configuration of runit is quite easy. Yeah, configuring runit (he forgot s6, by the way), is a little different than
Re: [DNG] Systemd as tragedy
[Time references are from the video on https://judecnelson.blogspot.com/2014/09/systemd-biggest-fallacies.html ] On 31/01/19 at 12:56, Dmitrii Kashin wrote: > В Чт, 31/01/2019 в 00:19 +0100, Alessandro Selli пишет: [...] > I'd like to notice that Benno just repeats systemd's propaganda. Actually he lists things that Linux+systemd have that BSD does not. And he prompts the BSD community towards implementing what it lacks, *without* *ever* *suggesting* porting systemd to BSD. > All > these theses were considered in 2014 by Jude Nelson. > > Here's the link: > http://judecnelson.blogspot.com/2014/09/systemd-biggest-fallacies.html Good read. But it does not refute anything that Benno Rice said. Fallacy #1.1: "Systemd's components have well-defined interfaces, so you can just replace the parts you don't like." Rice never claimed systemd is cool because you can replace any of it's components. Fallacy #1.2: "The Linux kernel is monolithic, therefore it is okay for systemd to be monolithic" Did Rice ever said anything about systemd being good or bad because of it's monolithic nature. *Fallacy #2: "Lots of people use systemd, therefore you should too"* Rice did not state that. What he did say is that there are reasons systemd caught on like wildfire, it is an innovation right were Linux was more strikingly lagging behing WindowsNT and macOSX (launchd): "active service management" (07:55). He did state the obvious, that all major Linux distributions do run systemd, but he does not suggest this is a reason the BSD people should even try porting it to that OS. Fallacy #2.1: "Systemd earned widespread adoption through its technical merits" He did say systemd has technical merits, and he talked about them. I already listed them, they are again: automatic HW and SW system reconfiguration, cgroups, message transport, service lifecycle, automation API and containers. If an alternative init and service management system is to have any chance at being considered a viable alternative to systemd it's got to be as good as systemd at doing these things. Benno Rice would like the BSD community to star developing their own solution. What about the Linux folks? What do we have, what are developers working on that could do that? Fallacy #3: "People who don't like systemd just don't like change" Well yes, Benno Rice did say that most resistance to systemd stems from the unwillingness to change long time habits. Which is true, I do remember how much I hated migrating from initd to xinetd, learning the new rules iptables introduced compared to ipchains, losing LiLO's and then grub-0.8's simplicity to be forced into grub2's awfully complicated config file syntax and generation procedure. But he said it mostly of the BSD people, and as an example to that he said (28:07): "And one of the biggest problems that I had with the FreeBSD community on this one was things like this: [slide] #systemd got you down? Come see my talk "Switching to the BSDs" at @lfnw this weekend. linuxfestnorthwest.org/conferences/lf... because to me this says on behalf of my community: 'Come join FreeBSD, we'll never change, we refuse to move forward into the future.'" Can you really think sticking to sysv-init to avoid systemd tells anything different? Fallacy #4: "Unit files are better than shell scripts" While he did not state that, it's a matter of fact that SysV's init script have been for decades vilified as an awkward kludge, generally badly implemented, extremely static and inefficient way of managing system services and deamons. And rightly so. All attempts at producing a better init than SysV started with doing away with service scripts and having just config files instead. Fallacy #4.1: "Unit files reduce complexity" While I do acknowledge this is true, I also list this as a problem. Reducing complexity has greatly reduced sysadmin's capability to customize their systems or implementing a workaround when systemd gets something wrong. Benno Rice did say this, and he is right. *Fallacy #4.2: "Shell scripts are buggy"* Yes, they are. A lot. And they often are so easily correctable that I wonder how comes some bugs have staid in init script for years after patches were proposed (a year ago I figured out an init script just needed two lines of code to implement the status reporting it lacked). Scripts are considered something trivial and inessential, they only run once for a very brief time and all it matters is that the service they are to start gets started. I can't explain it in any other way. *Fallacy #4.3: "Systemd is better because it gets rid of shell scripts!"* Again, Benno Rice did not state this, but this is true. Again i point out that *all* sysv-init alternatives started with doing away with init scripts. *Fallacy #4.4: "Systemd is better because it reduces shell script code
Re: [DNG] Systemd as tragedy
On 01/02/19 at 11:19, KatolaZ wrote: > [about 100 lines cut off] Jeez, that many? My wife was right that I got to bed too late yesterday night! > Are you willing to help with enabling s6/s6-rc in Devuan? Oh my, that means I'll have to upgrade to Beowulf! And spend lots of time tuning and reporting about it. When will I ever fix that leaking tap in the bathroom? 洛 > There will > be a talk by its author (Laurent bercot) and a dedicated hacking > session at the Devuan Conference in Amsterdam. More info closer to the > date. Too bad I'll not be able to attend. I wished I was. > Talking about software has never produced software ;) There are *good* reasons I never was a developer, lol! I'm just a sysadmin, I loove telling devs how lousy *their* software is and then wait for their next release to again open several bug reports against it! -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] bugs.devuan.org, couple of questions
On Fri, Feb 01, 2019 at 08:24:28PM +0200, Dimitris via Dng wrote: > hey all, > > couple of questions around bugs.devuan.org. > > 1) send my first mail yesterday for an existing bug in bugs.devuan.org > and spotted these differences in web interface: > > - https://bugs.devuan.org/240 > latest emails come first, signed email info/signature included > > - https://bugs.devuan.org//cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=240 > first email comes first, signed email info excluded, signature attached, > better reading experience overall. > > so this looks different, is this right? > shouldn't they both point to a single bug report page? One of them points to a static version of the page, generated off-line, which has emails in reverse order. The other one to a page created on the fly by a cgi. I knew about this issue but I did not have time to look into it. I have adjusted the rewrite to point to the cgi version. HTH KatolaZ -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] ¿A bug in eudev CD/DVD rules?
On Fri, Feb 01, 2019 at 06:30:13PM +0100, Gonzalo Pérez de Olaguer Córdoba wrote: > The file /lib/udev/rules.d/60-cdrom_id.rules provided > by the eudev package contains the following lines > (removed lines are marked with [...]): > Hi Gonzalo, which version of eudev are we talking about, please? HND KatolaZ -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] bugs.devuan.org, couple of questions
hey all, couple of questions around bugs.devuan.org. 1) send my first mail yesterday for an existing bug in bugs.devuan.org and spotted these differences in web interface: - https://bugs.devuan.org/240 latest emails come first, signed email info/signature included - https://bugs.devuan.org//cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=240 first email comes first, signed email info excluded, signature attached, better reading experience overall. so this looks different, is this right? shouldn't they both point to a single bug report page? 2) is there a way to subscribe to active bugs? ie. get followups as they come? can i file a wishlist bug if not? can it be done? (was using it frequently in debian). thanks, d. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] ¿A bug in eudev CD/DVD rules?
The file /lib/udev/rules.d/60-cdrom_id.rules provided
by the eudev package contains the following lines
(removed lines are marked with [...]):
# do not edit this file, it will be overwritten on update
[...]
# These rules will create symlinks for the CD/DVD reader, to help old
# programs which are unable to automatically discover the devices.
# The results are undefined for system with multiple CD/DVD devices.
ENV{ID_CDROM}=="?*",SYMLINK+="cdrom", OPTIONS+="link_priority=-100"
ENV{ID_CDROM_CD_RW}=="?*", SYMLINK+="cdrw", OPTIONS+="link_priority=-100"
ENV{ID_CDROM_DVD}=="?*",SYMLINK+="dvd", OPTIONS+="link_priority=-100"
ENV{ID_CDROM_DVD_RW}=="?*", SYMLINK+="dvdrw", OPTIONS+="link_priority=-100"
[...]
As seen, the file should not be edited AND the results are undefined for
systems with multiple CD/DVD devices. That's my case.
I have an /etc/udev/rules.d/70-persistent-cd.rules file, inherited from old
times, that does just what I want, creating symlinks for each DVD unit,
identified by model, independently of kernel names and other issues.
In order to avoid the execution of those SYMLINK lines of the 'standard' rules
I have copied /lib/udev/rules.d/60-cdrom_id.rules to
/etc/udev/rules.d/60-cdrom_id.rules
so the one in 'etc' will override the one in 'lib', and then I have removed
those lines
from the 'etc' file.
It really interacts very bad with systems with multiple CD/DVD units.
¿Should this be considered a bug?
--
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Re: [DNG] Systemd as tragedy
В Чт, 31/01/2019 в 00:19 +0100, Alessandro Selli пишет: > Might interest someone: > > https://lwn.net/Articles/777595/ Thx. As this article must be interesting to people subscribed to this list, I attach a free link: https://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/777595/8f021897f452e5b4/ I'd like to notice that Benno just repeats systemd's propaganda. All these theses were considered in 2014 by Jude Nelson. Here's the link: http://judecnelson.blogspot.com/2014/09/systemd-biggest-fallacies.html And (if someone is interested) here's my russian translation: https://www.opennet.ru/base/sys/systemd_myth.txt.html ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Help testing new policykit in Beowulf
On 1/31/19 3:53 PM, KatolaZ wrote: > Please test everything that involves higher > privileges as well, e.g., network setup, mounting/unmounting USB > stuff, etc, seen no errors so far. - can mount/umount USB drives (including luks encrypted) as regular user without any issues, - network connection with wicd works just fine: wired, wireless, adding new connections. - sound is working (pulseaudio) been also looking around system logs for anything strange, seen none so far. in anycase, if i spot any bugs, will use bugs.d.o to report. --- also wanted to say that switching to lightdm+elogind (coming from slim+consolekit) saved me from these 2 longtime "annoying" messages : 1) "The login keyring did not get unlocked when you logged into your computer." popup window message asking for user password, when starting certain apps (= gajim, nextcloud-client). 2) "kernel: traps: ck-remove-direc[3546] trap int3 ip:7f12e8a7bbe5 sp:7ffeca04f6d0 error:0 in libglib-2.0.so.0.5800.2[7f12e8a43000+7e000]" dmesg error in each boot with consolekit. hopefully this is related to policykit (?) and not offtopic completely :) i don't know what's the preferred/proposed really (consolekit/elogind), release notes mention different scenarios for various DEs, so i'll guess i'll stick to the one working better for now. thanks, d. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Systemd as tragedy
On Fri, Feb 01, 2019 at 12:33:32AM +0100, Alessandro Selli wrote: > On 31/01/19 at 03:38, Joel Roth via Dng wrote: > > On Thu, Jan 31, 2019 at 12:19:44AM +0100, Alessandro Selli wrote: > >> Might interest someone: > >> > >> https://lwn.net/Articles/777595/ > >> > >> [Front] Posted Jan 28, 2019 20:05 UTC (Mon) by corbet > >> > >> His attempt to cast that story for the > >> pleasure of his audience resulted in a sympathetic and nuanced look at a > >> turbulent chapter in the history of the Linux system. > > Hard to believe I listened to the same talk Corbet > > is describing. What I heard was a propaganda piece, > > finding reasons to sell the systemd approach > > to BSD conference attendees. > > Not really. He points out there were good reasons to want a new init, > that systemd was a try at innovating something that was old, and that > this is a different matter compared to *how* that change was implemented. > > Honestly, the anti-systemd front is never going to prevail pushing > technology dating from the 70's or steering the debate into an ad > hominem assault against Lennart Poettering. It's only chance is [about 100 lines cut off] Are you willing to help with enabling s6/s6-rc in Devuan? There will be a talk by its author (Laurent bercot) and a dedicated hacking session at the Devuan Conference in Amsterdam. More info closer to the date. Talking about software has never produced software ;) HND KatolaZ -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] testing beowulf
On Thu, Jan 31, 2019 at 04:29:14PM -0500, Hendrik Boom wrote: > Where should I get the installer for the beowulf version that needs to > be tested now? I plan to install it on a spare partition of my hard > drive and hope the installed dual boot still recognises my existing > ascii partition. I will *not* be using a virtual machine. > > I can test on two systems -- an AMD64 and a i686. > You can use the unstable mini.iso available at: https://pkgmaster.devuan.org/devuan/dists/unstable/main/installer-amd64/current/images/netboot/mini.iso https://pkgmaster.devuan.org/devuan/dists/unstable/main/installer-i386/current/images/netboot/mini.iso Please consider that this is not a finalised installer. HND KatolaZ -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
