Re: [DNG] Way forward

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Hendrik Boom (hend...@topoi.pooq.com):

> As a starter for corporate respectability, please make sure your 
> certificates are in order.  Firefox tells me:
> 
> Your connection is not secure
> 
> The owner of devuan.pro has configured their website improperly. To 
> protect your information from being stolen, Firefox has not connected 
> to this website.

I'm betting that the CN='algosov.org' in this X.509 cert (robot-signed by
Let's Encrypt) is being used because it was generated for the
Algorithmic Sovereignty Web site (https://algosov.org/), and the site
builders just haven't set of a cert for the newer devuan.pro domain yet.
Patience; it's obviously all very new.  ;->  (But yes, your point 
is certainly valid.)

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Re: [DNG] Way forward

[Hendrik Boom]

On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 01:51:39AM +0200, Jaromil wrote:
> 
> Fine. I accept your apologies Dan, but still believe this is not
> enough, now we have lost a major contributor and are in need of
> finding both sustainability and reliable agency. I am fully committed
> to the continued success of this project beyond any personal interest
> and believe we need to progress and perhaps extend Devuan so that it
> can be both a community effort and also a viable enterprise solution.
> 
> Following common understanding with other caretakers and parallel to
> the work on the conference documentation, I have started this website,
> soon to be linked by Devuan's official domain, served under TLS and
> completed with a list of willing partners as datacenterlight, your
> company and whoever will like: https://devuan.pro

As a starter for corporate respectability, please make sure your 
certificates are in order.  Firefox tells me:

Your connection is not secure

The owner of devuan.pro has configured their website improperly. To 
protect your information from being stolen, Firefox has not connected 
to this website.

-- hendrik
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Re: [DNG] Way forward

[Jaromil]

Fine. I accept your apologies Dan, but still believe this is not
enough, now we have lost a major contributor and are in need of
finding both sustainability and reliable agency. I am fully committed
to the continued success of this project beyond any personal interest
and believe we need to progress and perhaps extend Devuan so that it
can be both a community effort and also a viable enterprise solution.

Following common understanding with other caretakers and parallel to
the work on the conference documentation, I have started this website,
soon to be linked by Devuan's official domain, served under TLS and
completed with a list of willing partners as datacenterlight, your
company and whoever will like: https://devuan.pro

The reason for this is well described by what Katolaz wrote us in
private and I believe is very important for us to understand:

"""
  What will happen if tomorrow you will make a real mistake and tear
  down the whole Devuan infrastructure for two weeks? What will happen
  if in a week from now anyone makes a mistake building the sysvinit
  package and bricks 20K Devuan installations? I will tell you: there
  will be somebody who will ask your head to be served on a plate,
  because their customers were affected by your mistakes, she/he lost
  money, and it's all your fault.
"""

As a consequence of the April's fool it is clear that our NO WARRANTY
license is not enough to protect the voluntary nature of community
contributions. It is also clear that the centralized architecture of
our infrastructure isn't apt for the scale we are achieving. Perhaps
this situation is even a compliment to our efforts since so many
professionals are coming our way escaping systemd's instability and
seeking reliability for their work. And perhaps, rather than being
suffocated by our own success, there is even sustainability behind the
corner, if we manage to accrue resources for community efforts that
are beneficial to all.

In the coming weeks we'll work to define a certification program with
partnering organisations we verify to be capable to offer enterprise
level support for Devuan. This is not to turn Devuan into a company:
to the contrary, is to clearly separate community efforts from
commercial ones and establish a clear relationship between the two. We
will ask senior business developers to help us articulate this offer
in ways that can help improve Devuan's quality for both community and
enterprise uses. So lets now get beyond any futile interpersonal
argument and use our gear to provide for Devuan and those who like to
believe in it.

Besides this immediate solution, I remain devoted to facilitate an
inclusive community development process in the direction of a
distributed infrastructure; but for this we need more people to get
involved: capable people who have time at hand and know how to have
fun developing Devuan, without being treated like unpaid employees who
are held liable for the business of others. Perhaps we will even be
able to pay these people, at least making their life easier doing what
they love.

So this is an invitation to all readers: please consider contributing
to Devuan, having your company adopting it and inviting colleagues to
help. The coming months will be crucial for Devuan and we really
depend on this wonderful community, whose great qualities were well
visible at the conference, to keep up the project.

ciao

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Re: [DNG] Way forward

[Rick Moen]

Quoting info at smallinnovations dot nl (i...@smallinnovations.nl):

> 
> 
> This is really too childish to be true.

No, Nick, it's human.


Daniel, I completely empathise with everything you just posted, and 
appreciate your care and thoughtfulness.  Having gotten to know you 
along with Enzo/KatolaZ and Denis/Jaromil, I can say absolutely
seriously that you _also_ have my full and unreserved confidence.

There's something relevant one eventually learns from decades of
involvement in technical projects, especially ones that are
geographically dispersed:  E-mail and mailing lists are very difficult
places to fruitfully discuss anything contentious.  The coldness of 
text, its lack of personal expression, and a certain perceived
irrevocability of the written word tends to dramatically worsen
interpersonal conflict in a way that would not have happened if
telephone or video conferencing or in-person discussion had been used at
critical points, instead.  I've seen the sort of e-mail mediated 
conflict and (conseequent) great loss happen, again and again.


I was just reading, a few nights ago, about a fateful pre-Internet 
example (a disaster caused by use of written text rather than 
interactive discussion) that happened when I was a young lad.  Shortly
after my family moved to British Hong Kong, the Cultural Revolution
happened just across the border in mainland China, a frightening time
for everyone.  What I didn't know until a few days ago was about a
triggering event in that complex story, one that happened seven years
earlier at the Party's Lushan Conference in 1959, which convened to 
try to deal with Mao's faltering and badly planned Great Leap Forward 
economic scheme.  

China's blunt and plainspoken Defence Minister, Marshal Peng Dehuai, 
after getting consensus from many of his peers about the failures of the 
Great Leap Forward, went to visit Mao's quarters on the night of July 13, 
1959, to discuss those problems, but fatefully found Mao asleep and,
rather than disturb him, wrote and dropped off a 'letter of opinion' 
summarising his thoughts.  Mao didn't read that letter for four days,
but interpreted it as a frontal personal attack, which was not Peng's 
intention at all.  Mao circulated Peng's private written thoughts
widely, and drove the conference and Party to a radical doubling-down on
Mao's direction of leadership, ending Peng's military career and setting
the stage for the further escalation labelled the Cultural Revolution, 
wrecking the lives of millions, a few years later.  And all of that
_might_ not have happened if Marshal Peng had waited to have a quiet
chat directly with Mao over breakfast -- rather than leaving a letter.



I'm willing to host and cook an absolutely delicious breakfast for all
parties concerned, here, one that would be highly likely to encourage 
amity and constructive action, but fear that the airfare required to 
reach my house near Stanford University would be brutal.  Short of that,
tantalising but sadly impractical idea, I would point frantically at
Devuan Project's Jitsi instance.  (Hint, hint.)

Now, please excuse me, but I have fresh-baked sourdough bread to remove
from the oven and a second cup of really strong Scandinavian coffee to
make -- the time-honoured methods for keeping everyone happy (and
caffeinated), Chez Moen.

-- 
Cheers,  "I am a member of a civilization (IAAMOAC).  Step back
Rick Moenfrom anger.  Study how awful our ancestors had it, yet
r...@linuxmafia.com  they struggled to get you here.  Repay them by appreciating
McQ! (4x80)  the civilization you inherited."   -- David Brin
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Re: [DNG] Way forward

[Steve Litt]

On Thu, 11 Apr 2019 10:21:06 +0200
KatolaZ  wrote:


> I joined this project much before it was called Devuan, and I have
> always considered it a battle worth to be fought, day after day. I
> promised myself that I would have continued contributing to Devuan
> until the day we would have started talking corporate bullshit, or
> stopped trusting each other, or given up on having fun.


I suggest we pass the following resolution:

===
At Devuan we prioritize benefits to individual users over benefits to
corporations. Within the overarching umbrella of delivering
sans-systemd GNU/Linux systems, we seek to make life fun for
developers, caretakers, and all other contributors. 
===

Is there a second?

Thanks,

SteveT
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Re: [DNG] Way forward

[info at smallinnovations dot nl]

On 11-04-19 23:38, Daniel Reurich wrote:
>> Have I missed something? I want Katolaz back. 
>> Who is CenturionDan? And why does he have that much power?
> I am CenturionDan.  I don't have any power over Devuan, and am only a
> long time volunteer and contributor to this project.
>


This is really too childish to be true.

As of 30 April I will end the use of Devuan, the mirror at
smallinnovations.nl and my membership of this list.

Grtz

Nick





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Re: [DNG] Way forward

[Daniel Reurich]

> 
> Have I missed something? I want Katolaz back. 
> Who is CenturionDan? And why does he have that much power?

I am CenturionDan.  I don't have any power over Devuan, and am only a
long time volunteer and contributor to this project.

I also like KatolaZ have been contributing to Devuan since it's early
days, and I am also one of the "Caretakers".  I am not of late a regular
contributor to the discussion on DNG due to it's poor signal to noise
ratio, and my limited time, so please forgive me if you don't recognise
my handle.

My involvement also began at the early stages of Devuan, and I
contributed significantly to getting Devuan near to Jessie release in
particular with maintaining and extending the infrastructure and build
system.  Although I've not been as active since the Jessie release, I've
continued to be involved with both maintenance and infrastructure
support, often working in with KatolaZ and others.  I've also continued
to do advocacy for Devuan and been an actively using it for my clients
production systems for a number of years.


This particular sad situation has developed because I had expressed a
deep disappointment to the KatolaZ and the other Caretakers over the
April 1st Joke, specifically because of it's implications for people
that use Devuan in business like I do.  I have clients that were
difficult to win over to letting me use Devuan on their servers instead
of Debian.  I feared that had they got wind of this joke, it could well
be curtains for both Devuan on their servers, and also my providing of
services to them.  This is the reason that KatolaZ uses the term
"Corporate Bullshit".

In the initial communication to my fellow caretakers, I suggested that
KatolaZ and Jaromil might offer to resign as caretakers in order to show
that we take such matters seriously, and that they alone working in
concert pulled the joke of without discussing with the other caretakers.

Since then, I had apologised for the harshness of my critique and
withdrew my suggestion of resignation as I realised this was both naive
and wouldn't produce the desired result.  I will admit that some of my
following comments could be viewed as rationalising my position and thus
continued to stoke the fire.  This was unintentional, but stupid on my part.

I had not in anyway implied or expressed ever that I wanted KatolaZ to
feel he was on probation or that he should stop contributing to Devuan,
and I have reiterated that view to him and those in the conversation.

KatolaZ has expressed that as a result of my challenge to him, that I
never trusted him, something which I assure you all is false.  I
implicitly trusted him and continue to do so despite the joke, but I was
extremely dissappointed in that action he took.  We have had other
disagreements that were not issues of trust, but differing opinions,
some of which took time to resolve, and I foolishly assumed that this
would be resolved peacefully in the end also.

KatolaZ was a very significant contributor to Devuan and despite his
feelings towards me, I am extremely grateful for his contributions to
Devuan, our discussions and working through previously difficult issues
and for his willingness to work within the team of contributors.  I am
deeply saddened that he has taken this decision.

KatolaZ will be missed very much by me as well and should he change his
mind, I also hope he comes back soon and will welcome him with open
arms.  I hope we can smooth this over and focus on Making Devuan Great
Again.



I hereby also express my deepest apologies to you, the community of
Devuan users and contributors, for having contributed to this mess and
for words said in private conversations that may in hindsight have been
overly harsh towards KatolaZ and Jaromil and contributed to this mess.


Jaromil, to you I am sorry that you feel the need to declare war against
me (as you have done in your private email to me).  I don't think that
is necessary and it certainly won't help Devuan.  Instead I urge you to
reconsider and to take stock of your own words and accusations and
consider if they will not only further sow discord and disharmony - a
poison pill for Devuan and our broad community.

For the sake of Devuan I urge you to put the guns down and instead see
if we can find a way to peacefully move forward and instead focus energy
on getting Beowulf out the door.  I do not hate you, even though I
disagree with you.

-- 
Daniel Reurich
Centurion Computer Technology (2005) Ltd.
021 797 722



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Re: [DNG] Report from the first Devuan conference

[Miles Fidelman]

Nice!

Any chance of postings presentation slides as well as videos?

Miles Fidelman

On 4/11/19 2:16 PM, Jaromil wrote:

dear dng'ers

all those of you who weren't there: you were missed!

this is a first report about our first conference

https://www.dyne.org/the-first-devuan-conference

along with links to the stream for those who have missed it

in the coming days we'll publish edited (and in some cases remastered)
videos of the talks, which were all of very high quality in terms of
contents and worth watching.

I am already looking forward to the next conference, meanwhile please
spread the good vibes we all got while sharing our meatspace - but do
not mistake me here, all meals were vegetarian!

ciao :^)

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--
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.   Yogi Berra

Theory is when you know everything but nothing works.
Practice is when everything works but no one knows why.
In our lab, theory and practice are combined:
nothing works and no one knows why.  ... unknown

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Re: [DNG] Way forward

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Mark Rousell (mark.rous...@signal100.com):

> If you want and/or need full support and recompense for failure, then
> by all means pay for a service provider to provide this. Red Hat
> Enterprise Linux is available, for example, and there are many
> consultancies whom you can pay to configure and run things for you.
> But even then, their liability towards you will tend to be
> contractually limited.

Well put.  Reminds me of one of the things I said in the Linux User
Group HOWTO:

  [U]nderstand that the notion of "use value" for software is quite
  foreign to most people -- the notion of measuring software's value by
  what you can do with it. The habit of valuing everything at
  _acquisition cost_ is deeply ingrained. In 1996, I heard a young
  fellow from Caldera Systems speak at a Berkeley, California LUG
  about the origins of Caldera Network Desktop (the initial name of
  their GNU/Linux distribution) in Novell, Inc.'s "Corsair" desktop-OS
  project: In surveying corporate CEOs and CTOs, they found corporate
  officers to be inherently unhappy with anything they could get for
  free. So, Caldera offered them a solution -- by charging money.

During my long period of operating a LAN/WAN consultancy, I developed a
saying that 'If the clients aren't listening, it probably means I'm not
charging enough.'  Around 1996, about the same time the earnest-looking
fellow from Caldera Systems was giving that talk about CalLUG, I had a
client (long ago wound up in bankruptcy, so I don't mind talking in
public about this) that had basic-rate ISDN links between its four
branch offices and its main office in Walnut Creek, California where I 
was doing consulting work.  I noticed that, about once a week, they had
network storms of bad-route propagation, which I could temporarily abate
by re-training the routers using ping and traceroute.  Management asked
if I knew how to fix the problem, and I said 'Yes, certainly.'

'You are using Ascend Pipeline 50 routers for the nailed-up connection 
between the offices, and using Routing Information Protocol v2, aka RIP,
to automatically maintain routing tables.  The problem is, RIP doesn't 
scale.  When you had only Portland and Costa Mesa branch offices, it was
probably reliable.  Now that you added Sacramento and Phoenix, routing 
is becoming unstable.'  'What do you recommend?'  'This [passes out
copies of a printed sheet with a five-line routing table for Walnut
Creek, and a one-line routing table for each of the other offices].
I can enter these static routing instructions into the Pipeline 50s
right away, and it'll completely fix your problem.'  'But that would
mean we'd need to update the routing instructions if we ever opened 
or closed branch offices.'  'Yes, that's true.'  'Is there any way 
we can retain the advantage of automatic routing?'  'Yes, but only 
by replacing all the Pipeline 50s with a better ISDN router that does
Open Shortest Path First aka OSPF.'  'We'll have to think this over.'
'OK.'

Management hired an expensive local consulting firm to 'study the
proolem', producing weeks later a 40-page spiral-bound report with lots
of graphs, which, if you boiled it down to actual content said 'RIPv2
doesn't scale.  Either use static routes or switch to replacement
routers that doe OSPF.'

If I'd had a higher hourly fee, and threw in some graphs and
bureaucratically padded reports, they might have listened the first
time.  ;->


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Re: [DNG] [Fwd: Re: [devuan-dev] request of resignation of CenturionDan from caretaking]

[info at smallinnovations dot nl]

On 11-04-19 22:33, Svante Signell via Dng wrote:
> Forwarding this mail to DNG too. I think this is relevant to the discussion.
>
> Thanks!
>
> ___
> Dng mailing list
> Dng@lists.dyne.org
> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Nope, not relevant. The message sounds too much as our old troll Mike USA .

Grtz.

Nick



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Re: [DNG] Way forward -- PLEASE STOP

[KatolaZ]

On Thu, Apr 11, 2019 at 10:21:06AM +0200, KatolaZ wrote:

[cut]

> 
> Please forget this thread and do not waste any single bit on it: I
> will not read and I will not reply. If you have time to spare, use it
> to help Devuan in any way you can. Beowulf is very close, it will be a
> fantastic release and it will finally close the gap with upstream :)
>

Whatever good or bad you are saying on this thread: please just stop
now. Please use this energy to help Devuan moving on:

  https://bugs.devuan.org/db/ix/full.html



-- 
[ ~.,_  Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab  ]  
[ "+.  katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it  ]
[   @)   http://kalos.mine.nu ---  Devuan GNU + Linux User  ]
[ @@)  http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia --  GPG: 0B5F062F  ] 
[ (@@@)  Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ  ]


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Re: [DNG] Way forward

[Alessandro Selli]

On 11/04/19 at 13:05, Rick Moen wrote:
> Quoting KatolaZ (kato...@freaknet.org):
>
>> In the last ten days all those threee things have materialised, to
>> different degrees. Hence, I have decided to withdraw from Devuan and
>> will now take an indefinite leave from the project.
> Enzo, please enjoy your leave and come back soon.  Speaking for myself,
> you have my full and unreserved confidence.


  And mine as well.





-- 
Alessandro Selli 
VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net
Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key:
  BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE




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Re: [DNG] Way forward

[Alessandro Selli]

On 11/04/19 at 13:27, Edward Bartolo via Dng wrote:
> It was surprising to me to read what Jaromil wrote in one of his
> replies regarding the April Fools prank. In short, the statement was
> that Devuan takes no responsibility whatever the outcome of its use.


  Like all OSes do, both free and proprietary.

How could you expect Devuan to do differently?



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Re: [DNG] Way forward

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Edward Bartolo via Dng (dng@lists.dyne.org):

> Although, I was not present in the conferences, I can imagine what was
> the problem. That prank was completely misplaced: as someone replied,
> one does not joke with security.

Ordinarily, I am in agreement with this view, but _details matter_.  So,
no, IMO this is a wrong-headed argument when viewed in context, and in
my view is harmful to the project.  You're of course absolutely entitled
to your opinion (just as I'm entitled to my opinion that your opinion is
ill-conceived and actively harmful).


Here is how I phrased the matter, quite a few days ago, on the #devuan 
IRC channel:

19:46 < redrick> And, for the record, I really liked the prank, too.
19:47 < redrick> Eh, wrong window.
20:00 < watchcat> heh
21:23 < redrick> watchcat:  It was a comment directly to KatolaZ, actually.
 Although my view has shades of grey, to be honest.  I've long
 worried about a major open source project being taken down by
 security exploit on or just before April 1, as that would be
 one of the times sysadmin response would be impaired, along
 with New Year's Eve, etc.
21:24 < redrick> This isn't even the first open source project claiming such a
 security breach.  I've always responded with good security
 advice in case it's real but on a fake-seeming occasion.[1]
21:25 < redrick> Although in this case, the notion of intruders converting the
 compromised site to gopher was an adequate tip-off to anyone
 who stopped to think.  Not a credible real-world outcome,
 ergo, nicely done on balance.
21:27 < redrick> So, on the one hand, I have sympathy to those who say it's
 uncool to do a prank about security breaches.  OTOH, a total
 site conversion to gopher on 70/tcp?  Really?
21:28 < furrywolf> if something is worth doing...  :P
21:29 < redrick> It really almost qualifies as a moby hack.  Huge points for
 style, in my view.
21:40 < redrick> IMO, the perfect April Fools prank is one that's presented in
 a completely, consistently deadpan fashion, but if you stop to
 think is ludicrous.  BBC set the benchmark for that in 1957,
 in its report about the traditional spaghetti harvest in
 Switzerland.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVo_wkxH9dU
 Callers to Auntie Beeb who asked for advice about how to grow
 their own spaghetti trees were told 'Place a sprig of
 spaghetti in a tin of tomato sauce and hope for the best'.
 That's the way to do it!  And I see KatolaZ's prank as part of
 that worthy tradition.
21:43 < redrick> That clip is IMO worth the time of anyone who hasn't yet seen
 it.  62 years, and still hilarious.
21:51 < furrywolf> I've seen it.  :)




[1] On a quick search, I couldn't find an example of one of my private
notes to project leaders claiming a major security breach just before 
or on April 1st, but here's an example involving a claimed major
legal attack on open source institutions, that turned out to be a
coordinated April Fools prank -- which poses a similar problem:

Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 01:35:46 -0800
From: Rick Moen 
To: edi...@bedope.com
Subject: Clarification requested
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i
X-CABAL: There is no CABAL.
X-CABAL-URL: There is no http://linuxmafia.com/cabal/
X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy.
X-Eric-regex-matching: There are no stealth members of the conspiracy.

Hello there!

I'm an activist in the San Francisco Bay Area Linux community,
and noticed that Arcterex (ufies.userfriendly.org), Illiad and his
attorney Michael Scott DeWitt (www.userfriendly.org), Scott James
Remnant (segfault.org). and Mike Popovic (www.bedope.com) all
have almost identical notices on your Web sites.

Assuming this is real, you all have my sympathy.  But there's an
unfortunate coicidence(?):  It's April 1st.

None of those four Web hosts says, so far, "Yes, we know it's April
Fools Day, but we're serious.  We're under real, serious legal attack."
If you four are _not_ pulling off an April Fools prank in questionable
taste, then it'd be (in my view) an excellent idea to specifically
disclaim that intent.  Immediately.

I don't mean to add to your woes, if such they be.

--
Cheers,  "By reading this sentence, you agree to be bound by the
Rick Moen terms of the Internet Protocol, version 4, or, at your
rick (at) linuxmafia.com   option, any later version."  -- Seth David Schoen
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[DNG] [Fwd: Re: [devuan-dev] request of resignation of CenturionDan from caretaking]

[Svante Signell via Dng]

Forwarding this mail to DNG too. I think this is relevant to the discussion.

Thanks!
--- Begin Message ---
On Thu, 2019-04-11 at 20:47 +0200, Jaromil wrote:
> dear devs
> 
> for having caused the distress of trust within the caretakers group
> beyond our agreed liabilities (see licensing conditions of Devuan) and
> having caused the (hopefully temporary) resignation of one caretaker
> and lead developer (Katolaz), for having missed to fulfill many
> declared tasks in the past year and having polluted our meetings with
> unfulfilling rants of sorts, I kindly ask CenturionDan to consider his
> own resignation from the caretakers, let alone his presence as
> co-founder of Devuan which isn't really historically true. If he does
> not agree then I kindly ask all caretakers to consider a vote where we
> all agree upon a forced expulsion.
> 
> Said that, I just hope Dan has the decency to get the hell out.

Dear Jaromil,

You are really exaggerating this issue, all for no good. I've been present from
the early days of Devuan, and Dan was very much instrumental in creating the
first Devuan release: jessie. I've been contributing since the beginning and
have(had) a build daemon for package builds. Later on Katolaz (and others) came
in and contributed majorly, especially for the ASCII release. The April fool
joke by Katolaz was maybe not the best stunt but let's get on with Devuan, and
don't force him or Dan to resign, please! I don't know about the private emails
sent, but reading the dng list the spammer was not Dan it was Mike Bird, a
person unknown to contributing to Devuan...

The number of contributors to Devuan is very small, and with this kind of
accusations, the number will decrease further, making Devuan extinct. Is that
your goal?

BTW: You yourself has not been especially present in contributing to the Devuan
releases, how come? And nextime disappeared, why? 

--- End Message ---
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Re: [DNG] Way forward

[Simon Hobson]

KatolaZ  wrote:

> I joined this project much before it was called Devuan, and I have
> always considered it a battle worth to be fought, day after day. I
> promised myself that I would have continued contributing to Devuan
> until the day we would have started talking corporate bullshit, or
> stopped trusting each other, or given up on having fun.
> 
> In the last ten days all those threee things have materialised, to
> different degrees. Hence, I have decided to withdraw from Devuan and
> will now take an indefinite leave from the project.

I would ask you to reconsider.

Wherever you go you will always find trolls and idiots who will spout off about 
anything that they don't like - especially if they haven't contributed. I've 
stayed out of the "discussion" because it was mostly pointless - and in a good 
part a rant from one idiot. I thought it was a pretty good April 1st, but I'm 
inclined to agree with those who think it was perhaps misjudged. But only on 
the "mild slap on the wrist, don't do it again" level of misjudged.

So, don't see all the hot air and think that it in any way reflects the 
majority view. I think a large majority (a silent one) think it's all 
overblown, time to forget about it, and just get on.

You still have my confidence - and thanks for all the work you, and everyone 
else, are doing.
So take a break if you feel you need it, but don't for one minute think that 
you're not welcome back as soon as you feel ready for it.

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Re: [DNG] Way forward

[Steve Litt]

On Thu, 11 Apr 2019 16:19:38 +0200
Joril via Dng  wrote:

> On 11/04/19 16:15, Arnt Karlsen wrote:
> 
> >> Enzo, please enjoy your leave and come back soon.  Speaking for
> >> myself, you have my full and unreserved confidence.  
> > 
> > ..and mine.
> >   
> 
> And mine!

Mine too. And I think I speak for everyone, you also have my thanks.

SteveT
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Re: [DNG] Way forward

[Steve Litt]

On Thu, 11 Apr 2019 13:30:25 +0100
Rowland Penny via Dng  wrote:

> 
> I have said it before and I will say it again, the internet isn't
> really the place for an April fools joke,

Everyone knows that now, Roland, so let's just move on.

SteveT

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Re: [DNG] Way forward

[Steve Litt]

On Thu, 11 Apr 2019 13:27:08 +0200
Edward Bartolo via Dng  wrote:

> It was surprising to me to read what Jaromil wrote in one of his
> replies regarding the April Fools prank. In short, the statement was
> that Devuan takes no responsibility whatever the outcome of its use.

Stop it Edward, this is neither the time nor the place. Things are bad
enough the way they are: Don't make it worse.

SteveT
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Re: [DNG] Way forward

[Steve Litt]

On Thu, 11 Apr 2019 13:46:13 +0300
Dimitris via Dng  wrote:

> On 4/11/19 1:27 PM, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
> > It was at least a perfect example that "politic correctness" takes
> > out the fun of everything. Sorry that KatolaZ decided to leave, but
> > quite understandable.  
> 
> this was no political correctness example to me. corporate/other
> correctness maybe.
> all we read, was some troll bullying on a member, with the community
> watching/ feeding it.

Speakforyourself.

I responded, telling the guy to tone it down. Yes, I called the joke
"stupid", because it was, but I said to forget it and move on.

Many others either defended Katolaz or told the troll to move on.

> so, politically correct would be to stand by the "victim". 

Don't EVEN try to equate what happened with prohibition of disrespect
for groups of people. Keep the two separate.

> 
> it's a sad day, when bullies "win".

Yes, it is. I'll jump in harder and faster the next time somebody turns
a complaint into a vendetta.

SteveT
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Re: [DNG] Way forward

[Dr. Nikolaus Klepp]

Hi!

Anno domini 2019 Thu, 11 Apr 20:37:03 +0200
 Jaromil scripsit:
> On Thu, 11 Apr 2019, John Crisp via Dng wrote:
> 
> > So who out of the complainers is going to pick up the slack that they
> > have caused?
> 
> well, one is a member of the caretakers: CenturionDan, who has
> ultimately caused Katolaz to drop. It all happened within a private
> thread related to the April's fool.
> 
> I'm hereby asking CenturionDan out of the caretakers and will initiate
> a public and democratic process for that. I believe those of the
> community who want Katolaz back should first and foremost ask
> CenturionDan to get the hell out of the caretakers group.

Have I missed something? I want Katolaz back. 
Who is CenturionDan? And why does he have that much power?

> Meanwhile we should all take the time to watch Katolaz' presentation
> at the conference, whose final edit is here
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43DkuBxvJuc

:-) Sorry for not beeing there. 

> 
> Besides the enjoyable minimalist design tale he offers, this
> presentation very well explains why Devuan cannot be "pwned" the way
> the April' fools was made and how many professionals (us at Dyne.org
> included) are caring for distributing the liabilities and workload for
> it.
> 
> The future of Devuan ultimately lies in this plan: distributing its
> infrastructure. We will facilitate that up to the last bit, where
> every entity relying on it can have a git repository and a CI that
> builds packages and overlying them reliably on top of Debian's repos.
> 
> ciao
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> 



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Re: [DNG] Way forward

[Mark Rousell]

On 11/04/2019 19:37, Jaromil wrote:
> well, one is a member of the caretakers: CenturionDan, who has
> ultimately caused Katolaz to drop. It all happened within a private
> thread related to the April's fool.
>
> I'm hereby asking CenturionDan out of the caretakers and will initiate
> a public and democratic process for that. I believe those of the
> community who want Katolaz back should first and foremost ask
> CenturionDan to get the hell out of the caretakers group.

I said in a previous message that I am outsider here so I say this for
what it is worth:-

Please, please do not let interpersonal conflicts or potentially
incipient factionalism derail the project as a whole. On the face of it
(looking from the outside in), it seems that all this has happened in
just the space of a few days. Would it be best overall to wait a bit and
take stock before taking any new actions?

There is more at stake than this project alone.


-- 
Mark Rousell
 
 
 

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Re: [DNG] Way forward

[Jaromil]

On Thu, 11 Apr 2019, John Crisp via Dng wrote:

> So who out of the complainers is going to pick up the slack that they
> have caused?

well, one is a member of the caretakers: CenturionDan, who has
ultimately caused Katolaz to drop. It all happened within a private
thread related to the April's fool.

I'm hereby asking CenturionDan out of the caretakers and will initiate
a public and democratic process for that. I believe those of the
community who want Katolaz back should first and foremost ask
CenturionDan to get the hell out of the caretakers group.

Meanwhile we should all take the time to watch Katolaz' presentation
at the conference, whose final edit is here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43DkuBxvJuc

Besides the enjoyable minimalist design tale he offers, this
presentation very well explains why Devuan cannot be "pwned" the way
the April' fools was made and how many professionals (us at Dyne.org
included) are caring for distributing the liabilities and workload for
it.

The future of Devuan ultimately lies in this plan: distributing its
infrastructure. We will facilitate that up to the last bit, where
every entity relying on it can have a git repository and a CI that
builds packages and overlying them reliably on top of Debian's repos.

ciao
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Re: [DNG] Report from the first Devuan conference

[Mark Rousell]

On 11/04/2019 19:16, Jaromil wrote:
> dear dng'ers
>
> all those of you who weren't there: you were missed!
>
> this is a first report about our first conference
>
> https://www.dyne.org/the-first-devuan-conference

Thanks.

It all looks very interesting. I hope that the funding possibilities
mentioned will be beneficial.

-- 
Mark Rousell
 
 
 

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[DNG] Report from the first Devuan conference

[Jaromil]

dear dng'ers

all those of you who weren't there: you were missed!

this is a first report about our first conference

https://www.dyne.org/the-first-devuan-conference

along with links to the stream for those who have missed it

in the coming days we'll publish edited (and in some cases remastered)
videos of the talks, which were all of very high quality in terms of
contents and worth watching.

I am already looking forward to the next conference, meanwhile please
spread the good vibes we all got while sharing our meatspace - but do
not mistake me here, all meals were vegetarian!

ciao :^)

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Re: [DNG] Way forward

[Mark Rousell]

On 11/04/2019 09:21, KatolaZ wrote:
> I joined this project much before it was called Devuan, and I have
> always considered it a battle worth to be fought, day after day. I
> promised myself that I would have continued contributing to Devuan
> until the day we would have started talking corporate bullshit, or
> stopped trusting each other, or given up on having fun.
>
> In the last ten days all those threee things have materialised, to
> different degrees. Hence, I have decided to withdraw from Devuan and
> will now take an indefinite leave from the project.

Well, I guess you won't be reading this but I'll say it anyway: Please
don't go.

Although I am something of an outsider here, watching Devuan's
development with pleasure and with hope for the future (particularly the
future of open source and operating system diversity), I very much feel
that Devuan is better with you involved than without you.

Thank you for all your work. It has mattered.

If you need to take a break then fair enough, but I am sure that Devuan
will be all the better for it if and when you can return. :-)

-- 
Mark Rousell
 
 
 

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Re: [DNG] Way forward

[Mark Rousell]

On 11/04/2019 12:27, Edward Bartolo via Dng wrote:
> It was surprising to me to read what Jaromil wrote in one of his
> replies regarding the April Fools prank. In short, the statement was
> that Devuan takes no responsibility whatever the outcome of its use.

Eh? That's exactly the same as most freely obtained open source
software, including most Linux distributions. In general, unless you
have a contract with the producer of some software then their
responsibility to you the user of the software is virtually non-existent
and your ability to claim against them in case of failure of the
software is also virtually non-existent. Even if you have a contract,
your ability to actually get recompense from them and their liability to
you may well be very limited.

If you want and/or need full support and recompense for failure, then by
all means pay for a service provider to provide this. Red Hat Enterprise
Linux is available, for example, and there are many consultancies whom
you can pay to configure and run things for you. But even then, their
liability towards you will tend to be contractually limited.

> Any invester will definitely make a lot of effort to avoid such a
> possibility that can ruin one's business, as confidence is a very
> determinant variable in economics. This simple principle does not need
> a degree in economics to understand.

And yet open source has been wildly successful. It did take a long time
for the corporate world (or at least their legal departments) to
understand that there was no one to sue if things went wrong but (a) in
many cases they seem to have realised that suing would rarely have been
genuinely useful anyway in practice and (b) they can, as above, pay for
support and contracts if they want them from commercial service
providers. The builder of the operating system or the software does not
have to be the commercial service provider.


-- 
Mark Rousell
 
 
 

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Re: [DNG] frustration with browsers.

[tom]

On Fri, 05 Apr 2019 15:21:06 +
chillfan--- via Dng  wrote:

> Indeed there is Icecat that is DRM free.
> 
> Iceweasel-UXP just covers some more of the criteria of what people
> would consider less frustrating or is closer to a real fork since
> they change things at the code level.
> 
> It would be interesting if there was a version of Icecat based on
> Iceweasel-UXP.
> 
> The other one that's similar is Palemoon, but it doesn't have WebRTC.
> Generally a good thing but sometimes WebRTC is wanted for jitsi.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> chillfan
> 
> 
> ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
> On Friday, April 5, 2019 3:10 PM, al3xu5 / dotcommon
>  wrote:
> 
> > Il giorno venerdì 05/04/2019 13:50:03 +
> > chill...@protonmail.com ha scritto:
> > 
> 
> > > Might potentially be a solution if anyone did decide to package
> > > another browser to try to solve the problem, since it comes from
> > > the hyperbola project.
> > 
> 
> > Another is the GNU/IceCat browser:
> > 
> 
> > -   IceCat project
> > https://www.gnu.org/software/gnuzilla/
> > 
> 
> > -   downloads:
> > https://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/gnuzilla/
> > 
> 
> > -   bug-gnuzilla mailing-list archives
> > https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-gnuzilla/
> > 
> 
> > -   user documentation
> > https://libreplanet.org/wiki/Group:IceCat/
> > 
> 
> > Regards
> > 
> 
> > --
> > al3xu5
> > 
> 
> > Say NO to copyright, patents, trademarks and any industrial
> > design restrictions. 
> 
> > 
> 
> > Public GPG/PGP key block
> > ID: 4096 bit RSA key 69C5977BF94CFE23
> > Fingerprint: 59C6 9DC7 CD4B CF2F A190 E3DE 69C5 977B F94C FE23
> > 
> 
> > Dng mailing list
> > Dng@lists.dyne.org
> > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
> 

You can still compile palemoon yourself and enable WebRTC.

-- 
  
/ The chat program is in public domain.  \
| This is not the GNU public license. If |
| it breaks then you get to keep both|
| pieces. (Copyright notice for the chat |
\ program)   /
  
\
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Re: [DNG] Way forward

[Ismael L. Donis Garcia]

- Original Message - 
From: "Joel Roth via Dng" 

To: 
Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2019 11:18 AM
Subject: Re: [DNG] Way forward

On Thu, Apr 11, 2019 at 09:45:49AM -0500, Ismael L. Donis Garcia wrote:

I believe that we should achieve an opinion poll somewhere where get
registered the members that wish that KatolaZ return to the project.


Would be a nice show of support, but I think KatolaZ's opinion is
the only one that matters.


--
Joel Roth


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If, it himself. But it would be a way to make KatolaZ known that we 
appreciate your work within the project.


Best Regards
--
Ismael
Devuan User: http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=devuan 



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Re: [DNG] Way forward

[Joel Roth via Dng]

On Thu, Apr 11, 2019 at 09:45:49AM -0500, Ismael L. Donis Garcia wrote:
> I believe that we should achieve an opinion poll somewhere where get
> registered the members that wish that KatolaZ return to the project.
 
Would be a nice show of support, but I think KatolaZ's opinion is
the only one that matters.


-- 
Joel Roth
  

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Re: [DNG] Upgrade to Beowulf - two issues

[lpb+devuan]

Thank you - that *does* help. I did not know about that file or
directory. Issue solved.

On 4/11/19 10:24 AM, Antonio Trkdz.tab wrote:
> For the issue n.2:
> Did you try to comment/delete the
> file /etc/pulse/client.conf.d/00-disable-autospawn.conf ?
> 
> Hope it helps.
> Antonio
> 
> On Mon, Apr 8, 2019 at 6:02 PM  > wrote:
> 
> I have upgraded two laptops from ascii to beowulf, and have noted only
> two issues. Overall, things really look great.
> 
> 1. apt-get upgrade is telling me it wants to hold libequinox-osgi-java
> back. That's not surprising; the candidate version in beowulf is
> 3.9.1-4, but installing that version will wipe out the rest of my
> eclipse 3.8.1-10 installation. There do not seem to be any upgrade
> candidates for, e.g., eclipse-platform beyond 3.8.1-10. It seems strange
> to only have this one java lib advanced to 3.9, and nothing else.
> 
> And yet that's the case at packages.debian.org
>  as well. So I guess I
> will just get Eclipse from eclipse.org  instead,
> and wipe the one that
> was published/installed from the repos.
> 
> 2. I am using pulseaudio on these machines because, well, it just works.
> However in beowolf I am not seeing the pulseaudio server launched with
> my Xsession. I wonder if a file got removed from Xsession.d? In the
> meantime, I can launch it by hand, and if I worry more about it, I can
> launch it in .xsession.
> 
> I'm happy to report no other issues with beowulf, other than the known
> problem of /usr/bin/w reporting no login info when using the slim DM.
> 
> Thanks, Luigi
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Re: [DNG] Way forward

[Ismael L. Donis Garcia]

I believe that we should achieve an opinion poll somewhere where get 
registered the members that wish that KatolaZ return to the project.


Best Regards
--
Ismael
Devuan User: http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=devuan


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Re: [DNG] Way forward

[Ismael L. Donis Garcia]

- Original Message - 
From: "Joril via Dng" 

To: 
Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2019 9:19 AM
Subject: Re: [DNG] Way forward
On 11/04/19 16:15, Arnt Karlsen wrote:


Enzo, please enjoy your leave and come back soon.  Speaking for
myself, you have my full and unreserved confidence.


..and mine.



And mine!
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+1
--
Ismael
Devuan User: http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=devuan


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Re: [DNG] Way forward

[Joril via Dng]

On 11/04/19 16:15, Arnt Karlsen wrote:


Enzo, please enjoy your leave and come back soon.  Speaking for
myself, you have my full and unreserved confidence.


..and mine.



And mine!
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Re: [DNG] Way forward

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Thu, 11 Apr 2019 04:05:30 -0700, Rick wrote in message 
<2019040530.gk15...@linuxmafia.com>:

> Quoting KatolaZ (kato...@freaknet.org):
> 
> > In the last ten days all those threee things have materialised, to
> > different degrees. Hence, I have decided to withdraw from Devuan and
> > will now take an indefinite leave from the project.  
> 
> Enzo, please enjoy your leave and come back soon.  Speaking for
> myself, you have my full and unreserved confidence.

..and mine.

-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.
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Re: [DNG] Way forward

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Thu, 11 Apr 2019 13:30:25 +0100, Rowland wrote in message 
<20190411133025.60dab...@devstation.samdom.example.com>:

> On Thu, 11 Apr 2019 14:01:15 +0200
> Wolfgang Pfeiffer  wrote:
> 
> > On Thu, Apr 11, 2019 at 01:27:08PM +0200, Edward Bartolo via Dng
> > wrote:
> >   
> > > [ ... ] That prank was completely misplaced: as someone replied,
> > >one does not joke with security. The latter can mean lost
> > >business.
> > 
> >Only if people are too stupid to understand the idea behind what
> > is called a backup of computer systems. Or because they're too
> > negilent to create them. Again: Backup.  
> 
> The problem isn't people who post on here not understanding the idea,
> it was people browsing the Devuan webpage to get information who
> 'found' the joke and thought it was true.
> 
> I have said it before and I will say it again, the internet isn't
> really the place for an April fools joke, I saw the webpage on the
> 31st March and the 'joke' was still up late on the 1st April. Where I
> come from, this means the 'joke' rebounds on the perpetrator.
> 
> >   
> > >
> > >Why is it so hard to understand this?
> > 
> >See above. And because it was a joke.
> >   
>  See above, because it was a poor joke.
> 
> I have great respect and admiration for Katolaz and the work he has
> done on Devuan and hope that he reconsiders leaving Devuan, but he
> also needs to understand that you do not joke with security.
> 
> The main problem that I saw was, the idiot who incessantly demanded
> the perpetrator was sacked, this was way over the top, especially
> when the joke was revealed (note, I was completely taken in by the
> 'joke', probably because I didn't expect it to happen to something so
> important), once it was revealed as a joke, I felt extremely stupid.

..me, I had had a too long day, I just killed my mirror cron job,
started a checksum check and hit bed, and woke up to the happy 
news it had been apologised so we had no problem to fix. :o)

> I did however think it should never have happened.
> 
> Rowland

..agreed.

-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.
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Re: [DNG] Way forward

[Dr. Nikolaus Klepp]

Anno domini 2019 Thu, 11 Apr 13:30:25 +0100
 Rowland Penny via Dng scripsit:
> On Thu, 11 Apr 2019 14:01:15 +0200
> Wolfgang Pfeiffer  wrote:
> [...]
> I have said it before and I will say it again, the internet isn't
> really the place for an April fools joke, I saw the webpage on the
> 31st March and the 'joke' was still up late on the 1st April. Where I
> come from, this means the 'joke' rebounds on the perpetrator.

Oh oh .. the whole internet is an April fools joke. just look at your local 
regulation on information "freedom" aka censorship. ... oops, I was just about 
to mention some bad guys from the past dressed in garment from Hugo Boss.

Nik

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Re: [DNG] Way forward

[al3xu5 / dotcommon]

Il giorno giovedì 11/04/2019 13:27:08 +0200
Edward Bartolo  ha scritto:

> It was surprising to me to read what Jaromil wrote in one of his
> replies regarding the April Fools prank. In short, the statement was
> that Devuan takes no responsibility whatever the outcome of its use.

What's surprising about this?

Perhaps that corporations like Micosoft or RedHat and others, that sell
licenses or support fees at high prices, take some responsibility whatever the
outcome of their systems?


> Any invester will definitely make a lot of effort to avoid such a
> possibility that can ruin one's business, as confidence is a very
> determinant variable in economics. 

investors? business? economics?

All this is not (or should not, at least I hope) Devuan!

I and other people here and out in the world, contributing and/or simply
using Devuan systems, we should essentially be interested in safeguarding the
principles (technical, ethics etc.) for which Devuan was born. Otherwise what
would be the meaning of the Debian fork that is Devuan???

Investors, business, economics are what mainly keeps me (and I hope many more)
as far away as possible from Debian, RedHat and many other corporations... 
These are the same things that would also make DDD equal to others.


> This simple principle does not need
> a degree in economics to understand.

Maybe as well as the disinterested collaboration and the mutual exchange of
ideas and support are difficult concepts to understand for those who cannot
think if not in "economic" terms...


> Although, I was not present in the conferences, I can imagine what was
> the problem. That prank was completely misplaced: as someone replied,
> one does not joke with security. 

But in this case security has nothing to do with it, and it was very clear and
evident that there was never any problem whatsoever: only corporate interests
(and individual paranoia and bullying, maybe involuntary) were involved. The
reality has been distorted.


I renew full confidence in KatolaZ and Devuan veterans crew, hoping that Devuan
will continue as done so far, keeping any economic interest as far as possible.

Regards


-- 
al3xu5

Say NO to copyright, patents, trademarks and any industrial design restrictions.

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Re: [DNG] Way forward

[Rowland Penny via Dng]

On Thu, 11 Apr 2019 14:01:15 +0200
Wolfgang Pfeiffer  wrote:

> On Thu, Apr 11, 2019 at 01:27:08PM +0200, Edward Bartolo via Dng
> wrote:
> 
> > [ ... ] That prank was completely misplaced: as someone replied,
> >one does not joke with security. The latter can mean lost business.  
> 
>Only if people are too stupid to understand the idea behind what is
> called a backup of computer systems. Or because they're too negilent
> to create them. Again: Backup.

The problem isn't people who post on here not understanding the idea,
it was people browsing the Devuan webpage to get information who
'found' the joke and thought it was true.

I have said it before and I will say it again, the internet isn't
really the place for an April fools joke, I saw the webpage on the
31st March and the 'joke' was still up late on the 1st April. Where I
come from, this means the 'joke' rebounds on the perpetrator.

> 
> >
> >Why is it so hard to understand this?  
> 
>See above. And because it was a joke.
> 
 See above, because it was a poor joke.

I have great respect and admiration for Katolaz and the work he has
done on Devuan and hope that he reconsiders leaving Devuan, but he also
needs to understand that you do not joke with security.

The main problem that I saw was, the idiot who incessantly demanded the
perpetrator was sacked, this was way over the top, especially when the
joke was revealed (note, I was completely taken in by the 'joke',
probably because I didn't expect it to happen to something so
important), once it was revealed as a joke, I felt extremely stupid. I
did however think it should never have happened.

Rowland
 
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Re: [DNG] Way forward

[Clarke Sideroad via Dng]

It looks like Devuan just got knocked sideways, although I don't worry 
about the loss of forward momentum.

A voice inside my head is hoping this too is merely a joke.

Clarke
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Re: [DNG] April's fools joke + Way forward

[Didier Kryn]

Quoting Andrew McGlashan (andrew.mcglas...@affinityvision.com.au):


What if Katolaz gets hit by a bus?


    Virtually done.

    Katolaz got hit by a virtual bus. So this is kind of a crash test 
for Devuan.


    I hope Katolaz will come back some day and I'll have the 
opportunity to meet him.



        Didier




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Re: [DNG] Way forward

[Wolfgang Pfeiffer]

On Thu, Apr 11, 2019 at 01:27:08PM +0200, Edward Bartolo via Dng wrote:


[ ... ] That prank was completely misplaced: as someone replied,
one does not joke with security. The latter can mean lost business.


  Only if people are too stupid to understand the idea behind what is
called a backup of computer systems. Or because they're too negilent
to create them. Again: Backup.



Why is it so hard to understand this?


  See above. And because it was a joke.

Regards,
 Wolfgang

--
"When I see a giant crane passing on a flatbed truck, I pause in awe
and reverence, as one would for a church procession. [ ... ] If
civilization had been left in female hands, we would still be living
in grass huts."

Camille Paglia:
"Sexual Personae" p.38
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Re: [DNG] Way forward

[Wolfgang Pfeiffer]

On Thu, Apr 11, 2019 at 01:46:13PM +0300, Dimitris via Dng wrote:

On 4/11/19 1:27 PM, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:

It was at least a perfect example that "politic correctness" takes out the fun 
of everything. Sorry that KatolaZ decided to leave, but quite understandable.


this was no political correctness example to me. corporate/other
correctness maybe.
all we read, was some troll bullying on a member, with the community
watching/ feeding it.
so, politically correct would be to stand by the "victim". (very few
did


I was one of those, lurking here since quite a few few months, and
saying nothing when reading about that April fool's joke:

  It was crystal-clear, that there wasn't any danger at any point to
the integrety of the devuan infrastructure re. this joke: KatolaZ has
his public key published on this very list since quite some time: and
with exactly this key he signed the message telling us that it was a
joke. Obviously there are people out there who do not understand the
idea behind signing emails, people who - if they really meant what
they were writing here - never should come closer than a few feet to
any computer, anywhere.

 In retrospect it may have been a mistake to not tell the previous
 much earlier: but as grandmas used to say: if you cannot say it
 nicely don't say anything at all. In that very case I should have
 been ignoring grandma.


, while most just pointed fingers).

it's a sad day, when bullies "win".


  True, but in that case: one lets them win. And they win it's because
we allow them to do so. And only then they will win 

  KatolaZ: I understand you're fed up with the crap: but you let
losers win.

Sorry for intervening only now.

Best Regards,
 Wolfgang

--
"When I see a giant crane passing on a flatbed truck, I pause in awe
and reverence, as one would for a church procession. [ ... ] If
civilization had been left in female hands, we would still be living
in grass huts."

Camille Paglia:
"Sexual Personae" p.38
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[DNG] Way forward

[Edward Bartolo via Dng]

It was surprising to me to read what Jaromil wrote in one of his
replies regarding the April Fools prank. In short, the statement was
that Devuan takes no responsibility whatever the outcome of its use.
Any invester will definitely make a lot of effort to avoid such a
possibility that can ruin one's business, as confidence is a very
determinant variable in economics. This simple principle does not need
a degree in economics to understand.

Although, I was not present in the conferences, I can imagine what was
the problem. That prank was completely misplaced: as someone replied,
one does not joke with security. The latter can mean lost business.

Why is it so hard to understand this?
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Re: [DNG] Way forward

[Rick Moen]

Quoting KatolaZ (kato...@freaknet.org):

> In the last ten days all those threee things have materialised, to
> different degrees. Hence, I have decided to withdraw from Devuan and
> will now take an indefinite leave from the project.

Enzo, please enjoy your leave and come back soon.  Speaking for myself,
you have my full and unreserved confidence.

-- 
Cheers,  "I am a member of a civilization (IAAMOAC).  Step back
Rick Moenfrom anger.  Study how awful our ancestors had it, yet
r...@linuxmafia.com  they struggled to get you here.  Repay them by appreciating
McQ! (4x80)  the civilization you inherited."   -- David Brin
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Re: [DNG] Dng Digest, Vol 55, Issue 27

[Massimo Coppola]

On 11/04/2019 12:00, dng-requ...@lists.dyne.org wrote:

From: KatolaZ 
To: dng@lists.dyne.org
Cc: devuan-dev 
Subject: [DNG] Way forward
Message-ID: <20190411082106.t6clprzistrjv...@katolaz.homeunix.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Dear D1rs,

the first Devuan Conference last weekend was an incredible experience,
which confirmed that Devuan has lots of energy, strength, imagination,
humanity, and willpower to succeed in its quest. Devuan is in
excellent hands, and it is destined to grow from strength to strength.

I joined this project much before it was called Devuan, and I have
always considered it a battle worth to be fought, day after day. I
promised myself that I would have continued contributing to Devuan
until the day we would have started talking corporate bullshit, or
stopped trusting each other, or given up on having fun.

In the last ten days all those threee things have materialised, to
different degrees. Hence, I have decided to withdraw from Devuan and
will now take an indefinite leave from the project.

Please forget this thread and do not waste any single bit on it: I
will not read and I will not reply. If you have time to spare, use it
to help Devuan in any way you can. Beowulf is very close, it will be a
fantastic release and it will finally close the gap with upstream :)

Thanks for your passion and for the great community you make: this is
what powers Devuan, and what has made the miracle come true against
all odds.

Live, Love, GNU/Linux, and never forget to Laugh Your Asses Off ;)

I'll see you around.

KatolaZ, the last humble servant



Hi KatolaZ, all.
April fools' joke was rather easy to spot, if you ask me. Good move to advertise 
Devuan, by the way.
I'm sorry I didn't add to the stream of answers so far (I saw it as basicaly 
troll gimmicking, no offence intended to anyone: by now we had time enough to 
understand each other and spot the actual troll).


I am saddened by the thought that this time you may be not joking around, and 
Dev1 stands to lose one of its best contributors.


Hope to see you around for real

Massimo
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Re: [DNG] Way forward

[Dimitris via Dng]

On 4/11/19 1:27 PM, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
> It was at least a perfect example that "politic correctness" takes out the 
> fun of everything. Sorry that KatolaZ decided to leave, but quite 
> understandable.

this was no political correctness example to me. corporate/other
correctness maybe.
all we read, was some troll bullying on a member, with the community
watching/ feeding it.
so, politically correct would be to stand by the "victim". (very few
did, while most just pointed fingers).

it's a sad day, when bullies "win".



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Re: [DNG] Way forward

[Dr. Nikolaus Klepp]

Anno domini 2019 Thu, 11 Apr 10:37:32 +0100
 John Crisp via Dng scripsit:
> On 11/04/19 09:21, KatolaZ wrote:
> 
> > In the last ten days all those threee things have materialised, to
> > different degrees. Hence, I have decided to withdraw from Devuan and
> > will now take an indefinite leave from the project.
> > 
> 
> Tragic.
> 
> I tried hard not to waste too much time reading the ridiculous comments
> on the April Fool. It was exasperating and pathetic, and a terrible
> example for others to watch. A lesson in thinking twice before you post
> in public.

It was at least a perfect example that "politic correctness" takes out the fun 
of everything. Sorry that KatolaZ decided to leave, but quite understandable.

Nik

> 
> To all those who kicked off, you really were Fools, and you have reaped
> what you sowed.
> 
> Talk about turkeys voting for Christmas.
> 
> So who out of the complainers is going to pick up the slack that they
> have caused?
> 
> Volunteers take one step forward.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> #devastated
> 
> 



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Re: [DNG] Way forward

[John Crisp via Dng]

On 11/04/19 09:21, KatolaZ wrote:

> In the last ten days all those threee things have materialised, to
> different degrees. Hence, I have decided to withdraw from Devuan and
> will now take an indefinite leave from the project.
> 

Tragic.

I tried hard not to waste too much time reading the ridiculous comments
on the April Fool. It was exasperating and pathetic, and a terrible
example for others to watch. A lesson in thinking twice before you post
in public.

To all those who kicked off, you really were Fools, and you have reaped
what you sowed.

Talk about turkeys voting for Christmas.

So who out of the complainers is going to pick up the slack that they
have caused?

Volunteers take one step forward.




#devastated



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[DNG] Way forward

[KatolaZ]

Dear D1rs,

the first Devuan Conference last weekend was an incredible experience,
which confirmed that Devuan has lots of energy, strength, imagination,
humanity, and willpower to succeed in its quest. Devuan is in
excellent hands, and it is destined to grow from strength to strength.

I joined this project much before it was called Devuan, and I have
always considered it a battle worth to be fought, day after day. I
promised myself that I would have continued contributing to Devuan
until the day we would have started talking corporate bullshit, or
stopped trusting each other, or given up on having fun.

In the last ten days all those threee things have materialised, to
different degrees. Hence, I have decided to withdraw from Devuan and
will now take an indefinite leave from the project.

Please forget this thread and do not waste any single bit on it: I
will not read and I will not reply. If you have time to spare, use it
to help Devuan in any way you can. Beowulf is very close, it will be a
fantastic release and it will finally close the gap with upstream :)

Thanks for your passion and for the great community you make: this is
what powers Devuan, and what has made the miracle come true against
all odds.

Live, Love, GNU/Linux, and never forget to Laugh Your Asses Off ;)

I'll see you around.

KatolaZ, the last humble servant

-- 
[ ~.,_  Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab  ]  
[ "+.  katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it  ]
[   @)   http://kalos.mine.nu ---  Devuan GNU + Linux User  ]
[ @@)  http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia --  GPG: 0B5F062F  ] 
[ (@@@)  Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ  ]


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