Re: [DNG] Has anybody else experienced Raspberry Pi breakage ?
hello, Citando g4sra via Dng : On 17/05/2020 20:26, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote: Anno domini 2020 Sun, 17 May 13:20:13 +0100 g4sra via Dng scripsit: I have an old Rpi 2B that will boot its original Raspbian fine but panics 'killing init' on Devuan. Has anybody else experienced this ? The only difference I can discern is that the Devuan repository executables (init) are compiled as PIE. Any suggestions to further the diagnosis of this issue gratefully received. I have devuan running o a A+. I did not see this here. Maybe your SD card is broken? Its not the SD, it boots fine in a Pi3. There is no problem with the kernel, DT,s, config.txt, cmdline.txt (or the PSU). Everything is hunky dory until /sbin/init is loaded by the kernel. This is possibly an ARMv6 ~ ARMv7 BCM toolchain issue. Devuans init differs from Raspbians SystemD... PIE and the GLIBC so Devuan must have used a different toolchain to Raspbian. I need pointers what\where to poke next... were you got that Image from? I run devuan in my RPI1, with no problems Attach a usb-serial cable to ttyAMA0, and see what it spit out.. :) You can also create a thread in the forums: https://dev1galaxy.org/viewforum.php?id=24 Best Regards, tux ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Has anybody else experienced Raspberry Pi breakage ?
Hello, Citando g4sra via Dng : I have an old Rpi 2B that will boot its original Raspbian fine but panics 'killing init' on Devuan. Has anybody else experienced this ? The only difference I can discern is that the Devuan repository executables (init) are compiled as PIE. Any suggestions to further the diagnosis of this issue gratefully received. I can tell you what it is not about :) it is not because Init was compiled with -fpic .. There are a ton of options for that, The most basic one is not even related with init.. When you launch the kernel, you pass to it the roofs, so that he can mount it( to cal init after ).. If the rootfs is wrongly passed in bootargs, the kernel will attempt to launch init, but will panic, Because to launch init it means that he already mounted the FileSystem, but that doesn't happened... So, I would ask you, about the contents of bootargs: this are the contents of mine: 'earlyprintk=serial,ttyAMA0,115200n8 console=ttyAMA0,115200n8 console=tty0 root=/dev/mmcblk0p2 rw rootfstype=ext4 elevator=noop fsck.repair=yes rootwait net.ifnames=0 smsc95xx.turbo_mode=N dwc_otg.lpm_enable=0 kgdboc=ttyAMA0,115200 selinux=0 noinitrd' this is my /proc/cmdline: '# cat /proc/cmdline console=ttyAMA0,115200 kgdboc=ttyAMA0,115200 root=/dev/mmcblk0p2 rootfstype=ext4 rootwait'' and my fstab: '# cat /etc/fstab # /dev/mmcblk0p1 /boot vfat defaults 0 2 /dev/mmcblk0p2 / ext4 defaults,noatime 0 1 /dev/zram0 swap swap pri=1 0 0' If you have the bootargs correct for rootfs, check '/etc/fstab', if its the same. :) here in my case: putting '/dev/mmcblk1p2' instead of '/dev/mmcblk0p2'( in fstab ) will also lead to a kernel panic, has the system cannot mount root filesystem.. Does you were operating your RPI before with devuan, or you just tried devuan? How did you tried devuan? making a mix between respbian, and devuan rootfs? Or it was via a devuan image? You can take also, to the forums, were maybe you will receive better support, https://dev1galaxy.org/viewforum.php?id=24 Best Regards, tux ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Felker Init: was without-systemd.org not working
I believe I didn't expressed myself well, and so was badly understood.. Citando Steve Litt : On Sat, 16 May 2020 22:04:51 +0100 tux...@sapo.pt wrote: Hello, Citando Steve Litt : It's such a shame. Runit and s6 were both there, waiting to be picked up and used. Both were 10 times easier than sysvinit. But n. All init systems that want to be taken seriously, need to accept also the system language.. As I understand, and was also recognized by s6 creator at devuan conference, s6 *cannot* run a script made in shell script( the systems language.. ) Yes it can. I've created s6 run scripts programmed in /bin/sh. Laurent Bercot *discourages* using /bin/sh in favor of the execline language (http://www.troubleshooters.com/linux/execline.htm), but s6 run scripts can be created in almost any language, including /bin/sh. Maybe you think at it like been a superfluous thing, Not at all: I'd consider it almost a showstopper. Fortunately, s6 enables you to program run scripts (and finish scripts) in /bin/sh. Anything can fork what is given.. The problem is that this init systems are not shell aware. yes they can fork and exec a shell script, but does the service files or daemon files are shell based? No they are not, they are in a intermediate language that for example in systemd, is not even Turing Feature complete( I am speaking about the unit files language ).. I don't know much about systemd, or s6 to be honest, only a bit.. But the s6 creator told in the devuan conference that s6 is not shell aware, and I believe he told, there is not simple way to turn it shell aware.. The question was put by KatolaZ, at the last Devuan conference.. If you have a chance look at the video of the devuan conference.. The s6 creator was there invited.. Best Regards, tux ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Felker Init: was without-systemd.org not working
hello, Citando Dimitris via Dng : On 5/17/20 12:04 AM, tux...@sapo.pt wrote: But is a major flaw, being it a init system for a operating system, and not beign able to run shell scripts( systemd has also this limitation.. ).. you're right about s6, but wrong about systemd.you can run shell scripts with that bloated beast. What I meant was that..you know.. systemd or S6 is not shell built-ins/ Environment aware. You can execute commands that are operating system available.. I believe that you can also do the same with S6, But you can't use direct shell scripting language to be executed by systemd, or by S6( the proper developer of S6 spoke about that in the Devuan conference.. ). They could had done it Shell aware, and substitute the crapy unit files with direct shell scripting, Which is a lot more natural( as it is the system language.. ), and reduce the amount of files, for the same thing.. Moreover, a "called motive" for the systemd existence, as I recall it, "terminate the amount of files or symlinks "madness" that goes on SysVInit"..??anyone remember? I do.. The result... They ended creating a ton of symlinks more, plus the need of 2 files for each service o_0..using a closer method like is used in SysVInit with symlinks to the deamon.. In fact the number of symlinks that exist in systemd is *insanely* high, a lot but a lot bigger than in SysVinit..they are hidden.. They fork and exec what is given in the command, so for systemd, the thing get even uglier.. You need to create a Service unit file, that is not shell aware, and then you need to create the REAL SHELL SCRIPT to pass to that file, to be executed, And then prepare it to run accordingly..insane! if you think that systemd is shell friendly, Test it, :) You can start by a command that could be very basic like: 'A=0;WHILE READ LINE;DO ECHO $A:$LINE;LET ++A;DONE < /ETC/FSTAB' And we doesn't even started to speak about Environment variables( and its propagation inside the same namespace ).. That is another atrocity that could had been prevented was it shell aware from the beginning, because you can set or unset variables in shell scripting when you want.. Let's take for example a SAP service, That at least will take 7 different users, several databases( at least 2 ), for several Java Installations( administration/ operators, etc ).. To Launch a service like this with systemd, is madness, the amount of environment variables are tons of them, the users are independent, will you put all environment variables in the same place( Shared )? But that will destroy completely the idea of roles separation, security reasons.. I'am not saying that it is not impossible but you will start to mix, or share things, destroying your initial goal of having all services separated and communicating only via network/shm.. So long story short, you can fork *only*, you don't have the shell awareness.. :) Ofcourse if you only have basic services running, like ntp, stmp,dhcp, etc, its peanuts, anything can do the job..but for servers were you have a complex setup the problems start to be noticed.. Its my believe that systemd, as a project, started with the desktop Idea in mind, because its not designed with servers in mind.. You can look at the last disaster "homed"... Even for desktop is terrible, you cant even run services when the keyboard is locked...crazy.. :D It has a similar behaviour as with MS Windows( no surprise, as the developers that were developing it, had not real experience with unix before, but with windows they had plenty.. ).. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Device naming: was Felker Init: was without-systemd.org not working
On Mon, 18 May 2020 14:09:01 -0700 Rick Moen via Dng wrote: > Quoting Ian Zimmerman (i...@very.loosely.org): > > > Last year I nearly lost all my image and audio data, some 100G. I > > guess that's small potatoes today, but anyway _very_ valuable to > > me. It happened because I gave the wrong /dev/sd* name in a dd > > command when I was putting something on a stick, maybe it was Tails > > or something like it. If only I had listened to my nagging inner > > voice and looked at /dev/disk/by-id first, I'd have been okay. > > I'm a lot more concerned about servers, personally, and am not going > to permit overengineered software on my server just because someone > couldn't bother looking at 'dmesg | tail' before running dd against an > SD card. > > (I do detachable backups to external USB hard drives, and make a > point of doing 'dmesg | tail' before mounting, to make sure it really > is /dev/sdc1 this time.) Substitute the word "needlessly complex" for "overengineered" and I don't like it either. But 1), I don't think you'd get anywhere near universal agreement that by_path, by_id, etc is either overengineered or needlessly complex, and 2) ANYBODY can make a typo, completely unrelated to "not bothering to look at dmesg | tail". I think a more relevant constructive criticism would have been "where were the backups?". SteveT Steve Litt May 2020 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] without-systemd.org not working
On Mon, 18 May 2020 08:57:39 -0700 Ian Zimmerman wrote: > On 2020-05-18 16:42, Didier Kryn wrote: > > > In particular by porting Window$ on top of Systemd-Gnu-Linux, just > > like MacOS lives on top of FreeBSD and makes big profit. > > How would that work from the legal POV? Linux is still GPL, pretty > much for this very reason. > > I do believe that systemd was meant to be more than init from the > start, but I'm not going as far as Didier. I am. I eschew Occam's Razor in favor of Litt's Razor, which can be paraphrased "Follow the money." As one piece of evidence I present the words of a Redhat exec long before systemd existed: http://asay.blogspot.com/2006/10/interview-with-red-hat-cto-brian.html Search the word "complexity" to get right to the piece of evidence that Redhat profits from complexifying Linux. SteveT Steve Litt May 2020 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Device naming: was Felker Init: was without-systemd.org not working
Quoting Ian Zimmerman (i...@very.loosely.org): > Last year I nearly lost all my image and audio data, some 100G. I guess > that's small potatoes today, but anyway _very_ valuable to me. It > happened because I gave the wrong /dev/sd* name in a dd command when I > was putting something on a stick, maybe it was Tails or something like > it. If only I had listened to my nagging inner voice and looked at > /dev/disk/by-id first, I'd have been okay. I'm a lot more concerned about servers, personally, and am not going to permit overengineered software on my server just because someone couldn't bother looking at 'dmesg | tail' before running dd against an SD card. (I do detachable backups to external USB hard drives, and make a point of doing 'dmesg | tail' before mounting, to make sure it really is /dev/sdc1 this time.) -- Cheers, Rick MoenDiaeresis: Keeping the cow out of co-worker since 700 AD. r...@linuxmafia.com McQ! (4x80) ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] without-systemd.org not working
On 2020-05-18 16:42, Didier Kryn wrote: > In particular by porting Window$ on top of Systemd-Gnu-Linux, just > like MacOS lives on top of FreeBSD and makes big profit. How would that work from the legal POV? Linux is still GPL, pretty much for this very reason. I do believe that systemd was meant to be more than init from the start, but I'm not going as far as Didier. IMO it had to do with the insatiable desire on part of RH folk to have feature parity with Windows even when that meant going beyond Unix traditions - such as the pointless "multiseat". -- Ian ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] without-systemd.org not working
Le 18/05/2020 à 13:04, Peter Duffy a écrit : Thanks for the heads up on that - fascinating article. One of the things which always baffles me about systemd was that right from the word go, there was something which would have nipped in the bud all the controversy, pain, recriminations, etc. etc. Make systemd optional (so that, for example, it could be selected at install time from a range of available init systems, and later, if desired, removed and reinstalled). That way, people who liked it could use it, and people who didn't like it could use something else. Win-win situation: users could use the init system which they wanted to use; and systemd developers wouldn't have to spend all their time fending off howls of protest and hatred, and could concentrate on making systemd better (and if they introduced something that reduced the overall systemd usage, then they'd know (hopefully) that it wasn't a good idea). It's so obvious and self-evident that it must be concluded that there are other factors and agendas at work. Make profit from the user. In particular by porting Window$ on top of Systemd-Gnu-Linux, just like MacOS lives on top of FreeBSD and makes big profit. Let's be positive: it can only make Window$ better, which is a non negligible outcome, given the amount of Window$ users out there. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] without-systemd.org not working
Thanks for the heads up on that - fascinating article. One of the things which always baffles me about systemd was that right from the word go, there was something which would have nipped in the bud all the controversy, pain, recriminations, etc. etc. Make systemd optional (so that, for example, it could be selected at install time from a range of available init systems, and later, if desired, removed and reinstalled). That way, people who liked it could use it, and people who didn't like it could use something else. Win-win situation: users could use the init system which they wanted to use; and systemd developers wouldn't have to spend all their time fending off howls of protest and hatred, and could concentrate on making systemd better (and if they introduced something that reduced the overall systemd usage, then they'd know (hopefully) that it wasn't a good idea). It's so obvious and self-evident that it must be concluded that there are other factors and agendas at work. Which conclusion is deeply depressing. On Fri, 2020-05-15 at 14:44 -1000, Joel Roth via Dng wrote: > On Fri, May 15, 2020 at 12:09:46PM -0700, spiralofhope wrote: > Reminds me to revisit https://ewontfix.com/14/ > for Felker's Broken by Design article on systemd. > > None of the other init systems could compete > sysvinit due to the latter's huge installed > base. Except when marketing came along... > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
