Re: [DNG] double negative

[Simon Walter]

On 12/26/20 2:31 AM, Hendrik Boom wrote:

On Fri, Dec 25, 2020 at 10:07:57AM -0500, Steve Litt wrote:

On Fri, 25 Dec 2020 00:18:55 -0800
Rick Moen  wrote:


Quoting Didier Kryn (k...@in2p3.fr):


     Just to remind, if you forgot it.

     There's one known case where double positive means negative:
C++


"Yeah, yeah."

(The gag may not travel well, so:  At least in some USA regions,
the phrase "Yeah, yeah" is something of a dismissive phrase with
meaning at least bordering on denial.)


Here's what I want to know...

Why is the first word of any answer to any question asked of self
defined intellectuals "so"?


To give them time to think.




Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year?
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Re: [DNG] Historical note on double negation.

[Hendrik Boom]

On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 08:47:50PM -0800, Rick Moen wrote:
> Quoting Hendrik Boom (hend...@topoi.pooq.com):
> 
> > I've been told that was the case in a long-gonne ancestor of modern
> > English, possible Old English or the language of Beowulf.
> 
> It's not quite the same thing, but I am suddenly in a mind to provide a
> link to a lovely piece by my acquaintance Poul Anderson, the
> Danish-American science fiction author 'Uncleftish Beholding', in which
> Poul briefly explains atomic theory in an alternate-universe English that
> never received any Latin-derived vocabulary.
> 
> Here, my gift to thee and thee, for the Jul holiday (and let us remember
> Poul and his wife Karen fondly):
> https://msburkeenglish.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/uncleftish-beholding-aka-atomic-theory.pdf
> 
> (Watch out for that ymirstuff-235.  It can be troublesome.)

Thank you.  A marvellous piece.  I read it on first publication in 
Analog long long ago.

-- hendrik

> 
> -- 
> Cheers,My pid is Inigo Montoya.  You kill -9
> Rick Moen  my parent process.  Prepare to vi.
> r...@linuxmafia.com
> McQ!  (4x80)
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Re: [DNG] Vdev [ was Re: if2mac init.d service for persistent network interface names]

[terryc]

On Fri, 25 Dec 2020 12:18:10 -0500
Hendrik Boom  wrote:

> On Fri, Dec 25, 2020 at 08:53:53AM -0800, Ian Zimmerman wrote:
> > On 2020-12-25 10:21, Steve Litt wrote:
> >   
> > > Hearing this thread's perplexity, I long for the days of mknod.  
> > 
> > But that wouldn't have helped with the network interfaces, because
> > (in an un-Unixy way) their names have never been file names on the
> > systems we're discussing now.  
> 
> I wonder why.  Historical accident?  Or some deep technical reason?
> and not historical?

Err, because NICs are modern.
IME,early networking was SLIP or PLIP and went via ye olde modem.
Sophisticated was the stat Mux.

Again, IME, NICs came with thin/thick net.
The evolution of TCP/IP?
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Re: [DNG] if2mac init.d service for persistent network interface names

[aitor]

Hi,

On 25/12/20 22:41, aitor wrote:


Hi,

On 23/12/20 21:56, aitor wrote:
Another way might be the use of vdev actions, but vdev is a work in 
progress.


Indeed, vdev already has a helper for that:

https://github.com/jcnelson/vdev/blob/master/vdevd/helpers/LINUX/ifname.sh 



Cheers,

Aitor.

Sorry for my replicated emails. It's usual when I replay from the sent 
emails, instead of from the received emails.


Aitor.



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Re: [DNG] if2mac init.d service for persistent network interface names

[aitor]

Hi,

On 23/12/20 21:56, aitor wrote:
Another way might be the use of vdev actions, but vdev is a work in 
progress.


Indeed, vdev already has a helper for  that:

https://github.com/jcnelson/vdev/blob/master/vdevd/helpers/LINUX/ifname.sh 



Cheers,

Aitor.


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Re: [DNG] if2mac init.d service for persistent network interface names

[aitor]

Hi,

On 23/12/20 21:56, aitor wrote:
Another way might be the use of vdev actions, but vdev is a work in 
progress.


Indeed, vdev already has a helper for that:

https://github.com/jcnelson/vdev/blob/master/vdevd/helpers/LINUX/ifname.sh 



Cheers,

Aitor.


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Re: [DNG] Overlay filesystems and readonly partition mounts.

[Edward Bartolo via Dng]

Dear All,

I read the suggested shell script to provide an overlay filesystem in
Raspbian and found nothing that can damage my setup. I will use that
script. All file writes will directed to RAM.

Edward

-- 
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.
(Albert Einstein)
If you cannot make abstructions about details you do not understand
the concepts underlying them.
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Re: [DNG] double negative

[Hendrik Boom]

On Fri, Dec 25, 2020 at 10:07:57AM -0500, Steve Litt wrote:
> On Fri, 25 Dec 2020 00:18:55 -0800
> Rick Moen  wrote:
> 
> > Quoting Didier Kryn (k...@in2p3.fr):
> > 
> > >     Just to remind, if you forgot it.
> > > 
> > >     There's one known case where double positive means negative:
> > > C++  
> > 
> >"Yeah, yeah."
> > 
> > (The gag may not travel well, so:  At least in some USA regions, 
> > the phrase "Yeah, yeah" is something of a dismissive phrase with 
> > meaning at least bordering on denial.)
> 
> Here's what I want to know...
> 
> Why is the first word of any answer to any question asked of self
> defined intellectuals "so"?

To give them time to think.

-- hendrik

> 
> SteveT
> 
> Steve Litt 
> Autumn 2020 featured book: Thriving in Tough Times
> http://www.troubleshooters.com/thrive
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Re: [DNG] Vdev [ was Re: if2mac init.d service for persistent network interface names]

[Hendrik Boom]

On Fri, Dec 25, 2020 at 08:53:53AM -0800, Ian Zimmerman wrote:
> On 2020-12-25 10:21, Steve Litt wrote:
> 
> > Hearing this thread's perplexity, I long for the days of mknod.
> 
> But that wouldn't have helped with the network interfaces, because (in
> an un-Unixy way) their names have never been file names on the systems
> we're discussing now.

I wonder why.  Historical accident?  Or some deep technical reason?

-- hendrik

> 
> -- 
> Ian
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Re: [DNG] Historical note on double negation.

[Hendrik Boom]

On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 08:53:01PM -0800, Rick Moen wrote:
> Quoting Ian Zimmerman (i...@very.loosely.org):
> 
> > But if "and" is a conjunction in this sentence pattern, the nouns or
> > pronouns it joins together form the subject, and so they ought to be in
> > the nominative, i.e. "John and I". 
> 
> Indeed.
> 
> I vaguely recall Hendrik suggesting that 'and' functioning as a
> proposition makes 'John and me' a suitable subject for the sentence,
> i.e., in the nominative case, which I thought a startling notion both
> for the idea of 'and' being anything but a conjunction and for the
> conclusion drawn.  I'd have to check the archive to see if I read that
> entirely right -- but definitely the claim of 'and' being a preposition
> was part of it.

You read it right.  But it isn't so in modern educated English.
Just in remote ancestors of english,
And in some vestigial slang phrases.

-- hendrik

> 
> Not that this is worth dwelling on, unless good for points of benevolent
> entertainment.
> 
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[DNG] Overlay filesystems and readonly partition mounts.

[Edward Bartolo via Dng]

Dear All,

I would like to harden my Raspberry Pi music player to prevent
filesystem damage on power failures. Reading about how to boot the Pi
in readonly mode, I found there is a script which can do the job
without much bothering on my part. However, it is better to find a
custom solution rather than rely on a solution which makes use
assumptions which may not be true for my use case. I have moved my
music directories and files to a dedicated partition on the SDCard
which I mount as "ro,noatime". This means, part of the problem is
solved, but there is still the root file system which is writeable and
can become corrupted as a result of a power failure. I read that
overlay filesystems can solve the problem by providing a base readonly
file system and a top read-write filesystem. According to my
understanding, I can provide the top writeable filesystem by creating
a  file tree which are frequently written to. I can make this as a
memory resident filesystem like tmpfs. Then, the actual root
filesystem would be mounted readonly with the tmpfs on top of it and
merged with it. This would require me to copy the file tree to tmpfs
with every system boot.

This seems like a solution.

Suggestions are most welcome.

Thanks to all, and happy feasts to all those who are celebrating at
this time of the year.

Edward
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Re: [DNG] Vdev [ was Re: if2mac init.d service for persistent network interface names]

[Ian Zimmerman]

On 2020-12-25 10:21, Steve Litt wrote:

> Hearing this thread's perplexity, I long for the days of mknod.

But that wouldn't have helped with the network interfaces, because (in
an un-Unixy way) their names have never been file names on the systems
we're discussing now.

-- 
Ian
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Re: [DNG] if2mac init.d service for persistent network interface names

[tito via Dng]

On Fri, 25 Dec 2020 10:09:18 -0500
Steve Litt  wrote:

> On Fri, 25 Dec 2020 09:57:43 +0100
> tito via Dng  wrote:
> 
> > On Thu, 24 Dec 2020 21:11:49 -0500
> > Steve Litt  wrote:
> > 
> > > On Thu, 24 Dec 2020 16:32:18 +0100
> > > tito via Dng  wrote:
> > >   
> > > > On Thu, 24 Dec 2020 10:10:07 -0500
> > > > Steve Litt  wrote:
> > > >   
> > > > > On Wed, 23 Dec 2020 23:41:58 +0100
> > > > > Didier Kryn  wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > > Le 23/12/2020 à 22:03, Antony Stone a écrit :
> > > > > > > If the kernel decides A=eth1, B=eth2, C=eth0 then there's
> > > > > > > no way for udev rules to rename them, because "File
> > > > > > > exists" (which should of course say "Device name exists").
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > >     This should not happen and did not happen in the past
> > > > > > because the interfaces are created sequentially. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Yes it did. It happened in the 1900's. We were all advised
> > > > > never to use the same type of network card for both
> > > > > interfaces, because which card became eth0 would be
> > > > > indeterminate. I had eth0 magically switch to eth1, and then
> > > > > back again, several times.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Earlier in this thread I submitted a shellscript that fixes
> > > > > this whole problem, without all sorts of udev raindances.
> > > > > 
> > > > > SteveT
> > > > > 
> > > > > Steve Litt 
> > > > 
> > > > Hi,
> > > > is it this one? How does it solve my problem to rename
> > > > interfaces according to their mac address without 
> > > > name collisions (plus corner cases)?
> > > > 
> > > > #!/bin/sh
> > > > # Copyright (c) 2016 by Steve Litt
> > > > # Expat license. See http://directory.fsf.org/wiki/License:Expat
> > > > 
> > > > chosen_wifi_number=${1:-1}
> > > > wifidevs=0
> > > > 
> > > > for dev in `ip -o link | sed -n 's/[^:]*: *\(w[^:]*\).*/\1/p'`;
> > > > do
> > > > wifidevs=`expr $wifidevs + 1`
> > > > 
> > > > test $wifidevs -eq $chosen_wifi_number && {
> > > > echo $dev
> > > > exit 0
> > > > }
> > > > done
> > > > 
> > > > echo =max$wifidevs
> > > > 
> > > > Ciao,
> > > > Tito  
> > > 
> > > 
> > > It either is the one, or looks a whole lot like it.
> > > 
> > > Note that somebody else on this list made it even better, but I
> > > can't find that email again.
> > > 
> > > If the "w" in the sed command is changed to "e", then it does the
> > > same thing for wired Ether net.
> > > 
> > > The shellscript I wrote spits out one answer. However, it could
> > > easily be modified to do several, either letting you choose, or
> > > perhaps if running exec'ed or dotted, create environment vars like
> > > eth0, eth1, eth2, etc, and wlan0, wlan1, wlan2, etc, so all you
> > > need to do in your shellscripts is change "wlan0" to "$wlan0". As
> > > long as nobody switches slots or jacks, the numbering of these
> > > will be determinate. 
> > > 
> > > SteveT
> > > 
> > > Steve Litt   
> > Hi,
> > What I've experienced is that is that even pci bus numbers change
> > from one reboot to the other so unless you tie the names to the mac
> > address they will not be determinate and my router will not work at
> > best and lock me out in the worst case. On a desktop with 1-2 nics
> > or 1 wifi this is not that big problem as the names will stay
> > mostly the same just due to the low numbers involved.
> > 
> > Ciao,
> > Tito
> 
> That's a good point Tito. What would it take to write a similar
> shellscript using Mac addresses?
> 
> 
> SteveT
> 
> Steve Litt 
Hi,
I'm trying to do it and will post version 0.2 asap to review for the
list members, but there is more complexity than you would expect e.g.:

1) interaction with udev: if you change the names you need to 
  produce a net-persistent.rules file so that if you rmmod and
   insmod the names will stay the same;
2) interaction with net.ifnames=0 or 1: system creates new-style names
 but user wants old-style names and didn't set ifnames=0
3) what to do with ifaces renamed in first pass that were not included in 
if2mac.conf
(yes have to rename them all or interface swapping will not be 
possible)
 a) restore original name: not always possible
 b) rename to user style of names and numbering
  b1) add them to rules file or not
 c) just warn.
 4) make it robust.

This are just a few I recall but there are more.

Ciao,
Tito



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Re: [DNG] Vdev [ was Re: if2mac init.d service for persistent network interface names]

[Steve Litt]

On Fri, 25 Dec 2020 08:33:47 +0100
Didier Kryn  wrote:


>     Aitor I think you are the only person who knows vdev in depth.
> Therefore only you can decide what the best approach is, keeping in
> mind the amount of work is implied by the maintenance. I also agree
> that a tool to compile the database would be helpfull.

Hearing this thread's perplexity, I long for the days of mknod. If I'd
known udev and its descendants would turn into this kind of mess, I'd
have made an inotifywait or dmesg based shellscript to monitor
everything and perform the necessary mknod to create a device for it,
thereby eliminating a substantial part of the necessity for udev. Other
people could have created other shellscripts or simple C programs to do
the rest of udev's work.

Of course, that's 15 years water under the dam, settled law, so I'm not
going to do it.
 
SteveT

Steve Litt 
Autumn 2020 featured book: Thriving in Tough Times
http://www.troubleshooters.com/thrive
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Re: [DNG] double negative

[Steve Litt]

On Fri, 25 Dec 2020 05:19:06 -0600
o1bigtenor via Dng  wrote:

> On Fri, Dec 25, 2020 at 2:22 AM aitor  wrote:
> >
> > On 25/12/20 9:18, Rick Moen wrote:
> >
> > Just to remind, if you forgot it.
> >
> > There's one known case where double positive means negative: C++
> >
> >"Yeah, yeah."
> >
> > (The gag may not travel well, so:  At least in some USA regions,
> > the phrase "Yeah, yeah" is something of a dismissive phrase with
> > meaning at least bordering on denial.)
> >
> > i²=-1
> >  
> rotflmho

The humor expressed is imaginary.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
Autumn 2020 featured book: Thriving in Tough Times
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Re: [DNG] if2mac init.d service for persistent network interface names

[Steve Litt]

On Fri, 25 Dec 2020 09:57:43 +0100
tito via Dng  wrote:

> On Thu, 24 Dec 2020 21:11:49 -0500
> Steve Litt  wrote:
> 
> > On Thu, 24 Dec 2020 16:32:18 +0100
> > tito via Dng  wrote:
> >   
> > > On Thu, 24 Dec 2020 10:10:07 -0500
> > > Steve Litt  wrote:
> > >   
> > > > On Wed, 23 Dec 2020 23:41:58 +0100
> > > > Didier Kryn  wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > > Le 23/12/2020 à 22:03, Antony Stone a écrit :
> > > > > > If the kernel decides A=eth1, B=eth2, C=eth0 then there's no
> > > > > > way for udev rules to rename them, because "File
> > > > > > exists" (which should of course say "Device name exists").
> > > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > >     This should not happen and did not happen in the past
> > > > > because the interfaces are created sequentially. 
> > > > 
> > > > Yes it did. It happened in the 1900's. We were all advised never
> > > > to use the same type of network card for both interfaces,
> > > > because which card became eth0 would be indeterminate. I had
> > > > eth0 magically switch to eth1, and then back again, several
> > > > times.
> > > > 
> > > > Earlier in this thread I submitted a shellscript that fixes this
> > > > whole problem, without all sorts of udev raindances.
> > > > 
> > > > SteveT
> > > > 
> > > > Steve Litt 
> > > 
> > > Hi,
> > > is it this one? How does it solve my problem to rename
> > > interfaces according to their mac address without 
> > > name collisions (plus corner cases)?
> > > 
> > > #!/bin/sh
> > > # Copyright (c) 2016 by Steve Litt
> > > # Expat license. See http://directory.fsf.org/wiki/License:Expat
> > > 
> > > chosen_wifi_number=${1:-1}
> > > wifidevs=0
> > > 
> > > for dev in `ip -o link | sed -n 's/[^:]*: *\(w[^:]*\).*/\1/p'`;
> > > do
> > > wifidevs=`expr $wifidevs + 1`
> > > 
> > > test $wifidevs -eq $chosen_wifi_number && {
> > >   echo $dev
> > >   exit 0
> > > }
> > > done
> > > 
> > > echo =max$wifidevs
> > > 
> > > Ciao,
> > > Tito  
> > 
> > 
> > It either is the one, or looks a whole lot like it.
> > 
> > Note that somebody else on this list made it even better, but I
> > can't find that email again.
> > 
> > If the "w" in the sed command is changed to "e", then it does the
> > same thing for wired Ether net.
> > 
> > The shellscript I wrote spits out one answer. However, it could
> > easily be modified to do several, either letting you choose, or
> > perhaps if running exec'ed or dotted, create environment vars like
> > eth0, eth1, eth2, etc, and wlan0, wlan1, wlan2, etc, so all you
> > need to do in your shellscripts is change "wlan0" to "$wlan0". As
> > long as nobody switches slots or jacks, the numbering of these will
> > be determinate. 
> > 
> > SteveT
> > 
> > Steve Litt   
> Hi,
> What I've experienced is that is that even pci bus numbers change from
> one reboot to the other so unless you tie the names to the mac address
> they will not be determinate and my router will not work at best and
> lock me out in the worst case. On a desktop with 1-2 nics or 1 wifi
> this is not that big problem as the names will stay mostly the same
> just due to the low numbers involved.
> 
> Ciao,
> Tito

That's a good point Tito. What would it take to write a similar
shellscript using Mac addresses?


SteveT

Steve Litt 
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Re: [DNG] double negative

[Steve Litt]

On Fri, 25 Dec 2020 00:18:55 -0800
Rick Moen  wrote:

> Quoting Didier Kryn (k...@in2p3.fr):
> 
> >     Just to remind, if you forgot it.
> > 
> >     There's one known case where double positive means negative:
> > C++  
> 
>"Yeah, yeah."
> 
> (The gag may not travel well, so:  At least in some USA regions, 
> the phrase "Yeah, yeah" is something of a dismissive phrase with 
> meaning at least bordering on denial.)

Here's what I want to know...

Why is the first word of any answer to any question asked of self
defined intellectuals "so"?

SteveT

Steve Litt 
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http://www.troubleshooters.com/thrive
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Re: [DNG] Historical note on double negation.

[Harald Arnesen via Dng]

Rick Moen [25.12.2020 05:47]:

> Here, my gift to thee and thee, for the Jul holiday (and let us remember
> Poul and his wife Karen fondly):

He was one of the great SF writers, sorely missed.
-- 
Hilsen Harald
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Re: [DNG] double negative

[o1bigtenor via Dng]

On Fri, Dec 25, 2020 at 2:22 AM aitor  wrote:
>
> On 25/12/20 9:18, Rick Moen wrote:
>
> Just to remind, if you forgot it.
>
> There's one known case where double positive means negative: C++
>
>"Yeah, yeah."
>
> (The gag may not travel well, so:  At least in some USA regions,
> the phrase "Yeah, yeah" is something of a dismissive phrase with
> meaning at least bordering on denial.)
>
> i²=-1
>
rotflmho
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Re: [DNG] if2mac init.d service for persistent network interface names

[tito via Dng]

On Thu, 24 Dec 2020 21:11:49 -0500
Steve Litt  wrote:

> On Thu, 24 Dec 2020 16:32:18 +0100
> tito via Dng  wrote:
> 
> > On Thu, 24 Dec 2020 10:10:07 -0500
> > Steve Litt  wrote:
> > 
> > > On Wed, 23 Dec 2020 23:41:58 +0100
> > > Didier Kryn  wrote:
> > >   
> > > > Le 23/12/2020 à 22:03, Antony Stone a écrit :  
> > > > > If the kernel decides A=eth1, B=eth2, C=eth0 then there's no
> > > > > way for udev rules to rename them, because "File
> > > > > exists" (which should of course say "Device name exists").
> > > > 
> > > >     This should not happen and did not happen in the past
> > > > because the interfaces are created sequentially.   
> > > 
> > > Yes it did. It happened in the 1900's. We were all advised never
> > > to use the same type of network card for both interfaces, because
> > > which card became eth0 would be indeterminate. I had eth0
> > > magically switch to eth1, and then back again, several times.
> > > 
> > > Earlier in this thread I submitted a shellscript that fixes this
> > > whole problem, without all sorts of udev raindances.
> > > 
> > > SteveT
> > > 
> > > Steve Litt   
> > 
> > Hi,
> > is it this one? How does it solve my problem to rename
> > interfaces according to their mac address without 
> > name collisions (plus corner cases)?
> > 
> > #!/bin/sh
> > # Copyright (c) 2016 by Steve Litt
> > # Expat license. See http://directory.fsf.org/wiki/License:Expat
> > 
> > chosen_wifi_number=${1:-1}
> > wifidevs=0
> > 
> > for dev in `ip -o link | sed -n 's/[^:]*: *\(w[^:]*\).*/\1/p'`;
> > do
> > wifidevs=`expr $wifidevs + 1`
> > 
> > test $wifidevs -eq $chosen_wifi_number && {
> > echo $dev
> > exit 0
> > }
> > done
> > 
> > echo =max$wifidevs
> > 
> > Ciao,
> > Tito
> 
> 
> It either is the one, or looks a whole lot like it.
> 
> Note that somebody else on this list made it even better, but I can't
> find that email again.
> 
> If the "w" in the sed command is changed to "e", then it does the same
> thing for wired Ether net.
> 
> The shellscript I wrote spits out one answer. However, it could easily
> be modified to do several, either letting you choose, or perhaps if
> running exec'ed or dotted, create environment vars like eth0, eth1,
> eth2, etc, and wlan0, wlan1, wlan2, etc, so all you need to do in your
> shellscripts is change "wlan0" to "$wlan0". As long as nobody switches
> slots or jacks, the numbering of these will be determinate. 
> 
> SteveT
> 
> Steve Litt 
Hi,
What I've experienced is that is that even pci bus numbers change from
one reboot to the other so unless you tie the names to the mac address
they will not be determinate and my router will not work at best and
lock me out in the worst case. On a desktop with 1-2 nics or 1 wifi
this is not that big problem as the names will stay mostly the same
just due to the low numbers involved.

Ciao,
Tito
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Re: [DNG] double negative

[aitor]

On 25/12/20 9:18, Rick Moen wrote:

     Just to remind, if you forgot it.

     There's one known case where double positive means negative: C++

"Yeah, yeah."

(The gag may not travel well, so:  At least in some USA regions,
the phrase "Yeah, yeah" is something of a dismissive phrase with
meaning at least bordering on denial.)


i²=-1


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Re: [DNG] double negative

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Didier Kryn (k...@in2p3.fr):

>     Just to remind, if you forgot it.
> 
>     There's one known case where double positive means negative: C++

   "Yeah, yeah."

(The gag may not travel well, so:  At least in some USA regions, 
the phrase "Yeah, yeah" is something of a dismissive phrase with 
meaning at least bordering on denial.)

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