Re: [DNG] system administration of non-systemd distros and releases
Peter Duffy said on Fri, 19 Nov 2021 11:29:32 + >I've recently been asked to recommend an upgrade route for a number of >linux servers, and I proposed going to devuan. In response, I've had a >concern raised which took me by surprise. It was suggested that in the >future, it may not be possible to find staff who have the skills to >administer and manage servers running non-systemd or pre-systemd >distros/releases. I'm now extremely angry Sounds like a documentation problem to me. A fairly short document on how to use runit, how to install a new daemon using runit, and sample runit run scripts for various daemons, many of which can be found at http://smarden.org/runit/runscripts.html . Because runit is so dead bang simple, it might be easier for a systemd trained admin than systemd itself. I recommend you put together a short dog-and-pony show demonstration of adding and controlling daemons via runit. Include a 10 minute Python program, that doesn't background itself, used as a runit-supervised daemon. Even though systemd can do this too, they won't know that, and they'll oooh and ahhh about runit. I'd stick to runit. All the things Lennart said about Sysvinit are true: Its only plus is that it's still better than systemd. OpenRC takes too much expertise. Although once upon a time s6 and runit were very close cousins, to go after the systemd market the, s6 has been grandly complexified. I mean, if one REALLY needs the features of systemd, s6 is a great init system. But in your case simplicity is a necessity: This points to runit. GATEWAY DRUGS: Sysvinit can be a gateway drug to runit. You use PID1 from Sysvinit, respawn runit's runsvdir from /etc/inittab, add a few of the early Sysvinit init scripts to get udev running and various devices and filesystems recognizeable, and you're off to the races. Later on you can implement the PID1 and early boot parts of runit. Runit can be used as a gateway drug to s6. The supervision parts of the two are almost identical in function, although they use different command names. They're like Italian and Spanish: If you know one you can understand the other. If you really need ordered daemon startup, or "socket activation", or the daemon phoning home saying it's up (which can be done quite easily in runit with simple tests), s6 is the Cadillac of the industry. Another variable is how gnarly these servers are. If they just offer a few servers, runit's trivial. If they run 40 servers/daemons, or if they have lots of complicated VM guests or containers needing quick bootup, I'm not sure. Also, obviously, if the customer insists on Gnome or other software that checks for a systemd PID1 before working, well, they're idiots but you can't address the situation with runit. One more thing: You could write a run script creator that would query the admin for facts about the daemon, and then write the run script. Something like this: Command to start the daemon in foreground with correct functionality=> Directory containing the daemon=> Environment variables necessary for the daemon=> Does the daemon require logging (N/y)=> Command to test for process dependency functionality=> Command to test for process dependency functionality=> Command to test for process dependency functionality=> = You'll need one or more test for each process dependency: Keep querying until the admin says "end of dependencies". Most run scripts will have no dependencies. So most of your big, bad run scripts can be created in 5 minutes. Including run scripts for in-house daemons. SteveT Steve Litt Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] system administration of non-systemd distros and releases
On 2021-11-19 16:03, wirelessduck--- via Dng wrote: I’m waiting to see what comes out of the systemd replacement software in development by Laurent Bercot, the developer of s6. The project now has a corporate sponsor so it would appear someone sees a commercial benefit of his proposed design. I guess only time will tell whether it is enough to dislodge some of the pro-systemd arguments floating around management circles. https://skarnet.com/projects/service-manager.html FYI . . . here is a link to skarnet's presentation at the first Devuan Conference in 2018. Sound is not very good but the slides are informative: Demystifying init – by Skarnet https://youtu.be/I7qE43KK5bY?t=7622 golinux ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] system administration of non-systemd distros and releases
> On 19 Nov 2021, at 22:29, Peter Duffy wrote: > > I've recently been asked to recommend an upgrade route for a number of > linux servers, and I proposed going to devuan. In response, I've had a > concern raised which took me by surprise. It was suggested that in the > future, it may not be possible to find staff who have the skills to > administer and manage servers running non-systemd or pre-systemd > distros/releases. > > I've tried to give reassurance - but I'm still wondering if this could > be a valid concern. I'd always taken the view that it's primarily the > linux sysadmin community which is trying to stop the onslaught of the > systemd juggernaut - but obviously, the greater the proportion of > servers running systemd-based distros/releases, the less staff get > exposed to non-systemd management techniques and tools. > > I'd be grateful for thoughts and comments. I’m waiting to see what comes out of the systemd replacement software in development by Laurent Bercot, the developer of s6. The project now has a corporate sponsor so it would appear someone sees a commercial benefit of his proposed design. I guess only time will tell whether it is enough to dislodge some of the pro-systemd arguments floating around management circles. https://skarnet.com/projects/service-manager.html -- Tom___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] system administration of non-systemd distros and releases
Hi Peter Under normal circumstances an admin does not have to get in touch with the init system or start-up mechanisms too much: If the job by the package maintainer is done, it works as intended. In case of non-packaged software, when a startup-script is missing, it might be a little bit easier to write a unit file than an init script, but not that much, that it really counts. So under normal circumstances, it just does not matter. A decent admin works every day on the command line and thus shell scripts are a natural match. They can be understood easily, changed and worked with without problems. So systems which are based on shell scripts are mostly more understandable by the admins. And this counts, when things go wrong. I can't tell how hard it is to handle a broken systemd based sytsem, how messy binary logs look like, when the box crashes during a log write or debug boot problems on them, because I don't use systemd. I switched once to Linux servers, because I hated to tell my users when I solved a problem on a Windows box: "It works again, but I can't tell why." I want to understand what I'm doing and why I'm doing it, and that's why I stay away from black magic monsters like systemd, launchd or Windows. If your management fears not to find staff who has the skills to work with an open and well structured system like Devuan, they should fear to find no one usable at all in frst place. A decent admin can handle Devuan as good or bad as Debian. If a Linux admin is not able to work on the command line, she/he is not up to the job. If she/he can, he has no problems to work with a non systemd system. One more thing: A management how decides on products their IT has to work with, is like a team manager who tells a coach which player to send on the ice during a hockey game. A no-go. Technical decisions are IT decisions, financial and functional decisions are made by the management towards their IT. They just don't know the technical finesses, hurdles and dependencies. They should know about money and what is needed by the company. If a management manages to create a sustainable working environment, they don't need to find anyone new so soon. They get longstanding IT workers who care for "their" systems and lead the ones that step in, to get them integrated to the team and the system that's in place. If the management doesn't do it's job, they have to fear what they say, but then I'm also sure the IT department lacks time, documentation and team spirit already today. Regards, Adrian. In der Nachricht vom Friday, 19 November 2021 12:29:32 CET steht: > I've recently been asked to recommend an upgrade route for a number of > linux servers, and I proposed going to devuan. In response, I've had a > concern raised which took me by surprise. It was suggested that in the > future, it may not be possible to find staff who have the skills to > administer and manage servers running non-systemd or pre-systemd > distros/releases. > > I've tried to give reassurance - but I'm still wondering if this could > be a valid concern. I'd always taken the view that it's primarily the > linux sysadmin community which is trying to stop the onslaught of the > systemd juggernaut - but obviously, the greater the proportion of > servers running systemd-based distros/releases, the less staff get > exposed to non-systemd management techniques and tools. > > I'd be grateful for thoughts and comments. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] system administration of non-systemd distros and releases
On 11/19/21 05:29, Peter Duffy wrote: I'd be grateful for thoughts and comments. Welp, I've been a nix admin long enough that I still have some Redhat 5.1 CDs around here somewhere.. back from when Redhat wasn't such a corporate pr#ck. I see Devuan in the exact same place Linux was all through the late 90s. A stable OS "made by geeks, for geeks" and used by people who have more than just passive awareness of the OS. Back then, the discussion went something like: "Nobody wants to run Linux because this has a much better interface. Yeah, It sh#ts itself sometimes, but there's a patch in the works for that exact issue. Who wants to sit there and type all those stupid commands like I'm sitting at some thin client from 1980? Bawhahahaaha!" Imagine.. Powershell... two decades later. And typing stupid commands into a terminal window from the 80s is now the cool thing people are getting hired for. It will take some time for people to grow tired enough of all the systemic problems systemd creates. It's trying to do too much for the sake of domination and simple things are broken because of it. It causes outages and downtime. When ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Error updating local repository
- Original Message - From: "onefang" To: Sent: Friday, November 19, 2021 5:16 AM Subject: Re: [DNG] Error updating local repository On 2021-11-18 15:15:01, Ismael L. Donis Garcia wrote: Today it has begun error while trying to update a local daedalus repository. Until this morning everything worked well xz: (stdin): File format not recognized Failed: xz -d <.temp/dists/daedalus/main/binary-all/Packages.xz >.temp/dists/daedalus/main/binary-all/Packages WARNING: releasing 1 pending lock... Best Regards You where trying to update your local package repo from some mirror? deb.devuan.org Which mirror? Did you try again half an hour later? It might have been part way through updating itself. already working fine today -- A big old stinking pile of genius that no one wants coz there are too many silver coated monkeys in the world. ___ Thank you -- Ismael Devuan User: http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=devuan Web Site: https://gitlab.uic.cu/ismael.donis/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] system administration of non-systemd distros and releases
Anno domini 2021 Fri, 19 Nov 13:56:17 +0100 al3xu5 via Dng scripsit: > Fri, 19 Nov 2021 13:45:48 +0100 - "Dr. Nikolaus Klepp via Dng" > : > > > Anno domini 2021 Fri, 19 Nov 07:33:09 -0500 > > Rich W via Dng scripsit: > > > Sadly, this will probably never change. > > > > > > They used the same argument to choose Windows adimins over Linux ones > > > in the past. > > > > Which basicly translates to "I want to pay less". > > ... but pay (probably more) for RH "support" plans Definitly. And when that does not work out, search somebody that works for free, 'caus "we already payed XXX and it dod not help". Nik > > > Regards > al3xu5 > -- Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with the NSA, CIA ... ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] system administration of non-systemd distros and releases
Fri, 19 Nov 2021 13:45:48 +0100 - "Dr. Nikolaus Klepp via Dng" : > Anno domini 2021 Fri, 19 Nov 07:33:09 -0500 > Rich W via Dng scripsit: > > Sadly, this will probably never change. > > > > They used the same argument to choose Windows adimins over Linux ones > > in the past. > > Which basicly translates to "I want to pay less". ... but pay (probably more) for RH "support" plans Regards al3xu5 -- Say NO to copyright, patents, trademarks and industrial design restrictions! Public GPG/PGP key: 8FC2 3121 2803 86E9 F7D8 B624 DA50 835B 2624 A36B pgpgqrZEGnKH6.pgp Description: Firma digitale OpenPGP ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] system administration of non-systemd distros and releases
Anno domini 2021 Fri, 19 Nov 07:33:09 -0500 Rich W via Dng scripsit: > Sadly, this will probably never change. > > They used the same argument to choose Windows adimins over Linux ones in > the past. Which basicly translates to "I want to pay less". Nik > > -Rich > (Apologies if gmail client messed up this thread) > > > On Fri, Nov 19, 2021, 7:14 AM Antony Stone < > antony.st...@devuan.open.source.it> wrote: > > > On Friday 19 November 2021 at 12:06:48, Didier Kryn wrote: > > > > > Le 19/11/2021 à 12:29, Peter Duffy a écrit : > > > > I've recently been asked to recommend an upgrade route for a number of > > > > linux servers, and I proposed going to devuan. In response, I've had a > > > > concern raised which took me by surprise. It was suggested that in the > > > > future, it may not be possible to find staff who have the skills to > > > > administer and manage servers running non-systemd or pre-systemd > > > > distros/releases. > > > > > I suggest that professional admins haven't blinkers like horses and > > > are supposed to be educated enough to be able to learn even a completely > > > new OS. > > > > This is true, but it's not the techies who are the concern - it's the > > employers - they're going to ask for "Red Hat admins", or ask interview > > questions about managing systemd machines. > > > > You might be capable of learning all sorts of stuff, but an employer wants > > you > > to know about it on day one and start doing the job. > > > > > > Antony. > > > > -- > > I think broken pencils are pointless. > > > >Please reply to the > > list; > > please *don't* CC > > me. > > ___ > > Dng mailing list > > Dng@lists.dyne.org > > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > > > -- Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with the NSA, CIA ... ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] system administration of non-systemd distros and releases
Sadly, this will probably never change. They used the same argument to choose Windows adimins over Linux ones in the past. -Rich (Apologies if gmail client messed up this thread) On Fri, Nov 19, 2021, 7:14 AM Antony Stone < antony.st...@devuan.open.source.it> wrote: > On Friday 19 November 2021 at 12:06:48, Didier Kryn wrote: > > > Le 19/11/2021 à 12:29, Peter Duffy a écrit : > > > I've recently been asked to recommend an upgrade route for a number of > > > linux servers, and I proposed going to devuan. In response, I've had a > > > concern raised which took me by surprise. It was suggested that in the > > > future, it may not be possible to find staff who have the skills to > > > administer and manage servers running non-systemd or pre-systemd > > > distros/releases. > > > I suggest that professional admins haven't blinkers like horses and > > are supposed to be educated enough to be able to learn even a completely > > new OS. > > This is true, but it's not the techies who are the concern - it's the > employers - they're going to ask for "Red Hat admins", or ask interview > questions about managing systemd machines. > > You might be capable of learning all sorts of stuff, but an employer wants > you > to know about it on day one and start doing the job. > > > Antony. > > -- > I think broken pencils are pointless. > >Please reply to the > list; > please *don't* CC > me. > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] system administration of non-systemd distros and releases
On Friday 19 November 2021 at 12:14:31, Antony Stone wrote: > On Friday 19 November 2021 at 12:06:48, Didier Kryn wrote: > > Le 19/11/2021 à 12:29, Peter Duffy a écrit : > > > I've recently been asked to recommend an upgrade route for a number of > > > linux servers, and I proposed going to devuan. In response, I've had a > > > concern raised which took me by surprise. It was suggested that in the > > > future, it may not be possible to find staff who have the skills to > > > administer and manage servers running non-systemd or pre-systemd > > > distros/releases. > > > > > I suggest that professional admins haven't blinkers like horses and > > > > are supposed to be educated enough to be able to learn even a completely > > new OS. > > This is true, but it's not the techies who are the concern - it's the > employers - they're going to ask for "Red Hat admins", or ask interview > questions about managing systemd machines. > > You might be capable of learning all sorts of stuff, but an employer wants > you to know about it on day one and start doing the job. Sorry, I phrased that the wrong way round - as though an employer wants a systemd person and one of us applies for the job - but the same argument works the other way around, for a systemd-familiar person going for a sysvint or runit or openrc job. > Antony. -- "Reports that say that something hasn't happened are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns - the ones we don't know we don't know." - Donald Rumsfeld, US Secretary of Defence Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] system administration of non-systemd distros and releases
On Friday 19 November 2021 at 12:06:48, Didier Kryn wrote: > Le 19/11/2021 à 12:29, Peter Duffy a écrit : > > I've recently been asked to recommend an upgrade route for a number of > > linux servers, and I proposed going to devuan. In response, I've had a > > concern raised which took me by surprise. It was suggested that in the > > future, it may not be possible to find staff who have the skills to > > administer and manage servers running non-systemd or pre-systemd > > distros/releases. > I suggest that professional admins haven't blinkers like horses and > are supposed to be educated enough to be able to learn even a completely > new OS. This is true, but it's not the techies who are the concern - it's the employers - they're going to ask for "Red Hat admins", or ask interview questions about managing systemd machines. You might be capable of learning all sorts of stuff, but an employer wants you to know about it on day one and start doing the job. Antony. -- I think broken pencils are pointless. Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] system administration of non-systemd distros and releases
Le 19/11/2021 à 12:29, Peter Duffy a écrit : > I've recently been asked to recommend an upgrade route for a number of > linux servers, and I proposed going to devuan. In response, I've had a > concern raised which took me by surprise. It was suggested that in the > future, it may not be possible to find staff who have the skills to > administer and manage servers running non-systemd or pre-systemd > distros/releases. > > I've tried to give reassurance - but I'm still wondering if this could > be a valid concern. I'd always taken the view that it's primarily the > linux sysadmin community which is trying to stop the onslaught of the > systemd juggernaut - but obviously, the greater the proportion of > servers running systemd-based distros/releases, the less staff get > exposed to non-systemd management techniques and tools. > > I'd be grateful for thoughts and comments. > I suggest that professional admins haven't blinkers like horses and are supposed to be educated enough to be able to learn even a completely new OS. -- Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] system administration of non-systemd distros and releases
I've recently been asked to recommend an upgrade route for a number of linux servers, and I proposed going to devuan. In response, I've had a concern raised which took me by surprise. It was suggested that in the future, it may not be possible to find staff who have the skills to administer and manage servers running non-systemd or pre-systemd distros/releases. I've tried to give reassurance - but I'm still wondering if this could be a valid concern. I'd always taken the view that it's primarily the linux sysadmin community which is trying to stop the onslaught of the systemd juggernaut - but obviously, the greater the proportion of servers running systemd-based distros/releases, the less staff get exposed to non-systemd management techniques and tools. I'd be grateful for thoughts and comments. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Error updating local repository
On 2021-11-18 15:15:01, Ismael L. Donis Garcia wrote: >Today it has begun error while trying to update a local daedalus >repository. >Until this morning everything worked well > >xz: (stdin): File format not recognized >Failed: xz -d <.temp/dists/daedalus/main/binary-all/Packages.xz >>.temp/dists/daedalus/main/binary-all/Packages >WARNING: releasing 1 pending lock... >Best Regards You where trying to update your local package repo from some mirror? Which mirror? Did you try again half an hour later? It might have been part way through updating itself. -- A big old stinking pile of genius that no one wants coz there are too many silver coated monkeys in the world. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
