Re: [DNG] The Daedalus desktop needs some love
> On 23 Jan 2022, at 13:27, Olaf Meeuwissen via Dng wrote: > > Hi, > > wirelessduck--- via Dng writes: > >> On 20 Jan 2022, at 23:33, Hendrik Boom wrote: >> >> It's nice if the desktop colours look good on a perfectly calibrated monitor. >> But what's more important for it to look good on the variety of monitors >> regular users use. >> So we should test the imagery on the ordinary, everyday laptops and >> monitors we have at home and work. >> And it's important the the colours work even if one is colourblind. >> I'd suggest viewing it converted to greyscale as a first try at testing >> this, bt a friend of mine who is colourblind tells me it's far more >> complicated than this. >> >> -- hendrik >> >> Can I suggest Color Oracle or similar as a tool to use here? >> >> https://colororacle.org/ >> >> It allows you to apply a full screen filter to simulate what a colour >> blind person would be seeing if they were viewing your monitor. It is >> a Java app and I’ve only tested it on Windows some years ago but it >> does say Linux compatible, with a link to source code on GitHub. > > Web developer tools for Firefox and Chromium should also contain tools > to simulate colour blindness and some other visual impairments. I have > played around with a tool for Chromium a while back but don't remember > it's name. > > Hope this helps, > -- > Olaf Meeuwissen There are tools included in both Firefox and chrome. https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Tools/Accessibility_inspector/Simulation https://mobile.twitter.com/mathias/status/1237393102635012101 I prefer ColorOracle because it overlays the entire screen, not just a single window. I tested it just now in Devuan 4 using Java 11 and it runs fine, adding the applet into the icon widget/system tray area of my tint2 panel in openbox. I’m guessing it should work just fine also with XFCE or similar desktop environment. You can run it after downloading and unzipping with: java -jar ColorOracle.jar ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] kernel-update: initramfs fails to find swap
Hi, Florian Zieboll via Dng writes: > On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 10:34:28 -0500 > tempforever wrote: > >> Something to check/verify: >> If swap is listed in /etc/fstab, then make sure it is listed by UUID >> rather than block-id. >> I mention this, since I have a (commented out) swap line in /etc/fstab > > Yes, in the fstab, the swap partition is active and defined by (the > correct) UUID. Just to make absolutely sure, you're saying that the output of blkid -t TYPE=swap -s UUID -o value matches what's in your /etc/fstab and /etc/initramfs-tools/conf.d/resume and you have run `update-initramfs -u` after confirming that? I've been seeing these boot delays as well (on a Debian machine where systemd "helpfully" waits for swap to become available and eventually continues without when that times out after 90 seconds!) after I recreated swap (moved the partition and ran mkswap on it). Updating /etc/fstab and /etc/initramfs-tools/conf.d/resume to match the changed UUID and running `update-initramfs -u` made it go away. Hope this helps, -- Olaf MeeuwissenFSF Associate Member since 2004-01-27 GnuPG key: F84A2DD9/B3C0 2F47 EA19 64F4 9F13 F43E B8A4 A88A F84A 2DD9 Support Free Softwarehttps://my.fsf.org/donate Join the Free Software Foundation https://my.fsf.org/join ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Website "motto"?
Hi, Antony Stone writes: > On Thursday 20 January 2022 at 11:39:25, Steve Litt wrote: > >> goli...@devuan.org said on Thu, 20 Jan 2022 00:07:20 -0600 >> >> >THIS is the official Devuan logo: >> > >> >https://git.devuan.org/devuan/documentation/src/branch/master/art/graphics >> >/devuan-logo-1000x200.png >> >> Nice! >> >> SteveT > > You make it sound as though you have never installed Devuan... > > That logo appears on the installer screen every time you create a machine. It's also used as the default GRUB GUI theme (if you've installed desktop-base, IIRC). Hope this helps, -- Olaf MeeuwissenFSF Associate Member since 2004-01-27 GnuPG key: F84A2DD9/B3C0 2F47 EA19 64F4 9F13 F43E B8A4 A88A F84A 2DD9 Support Free Softwarehttps://my.fsf.org/donate Join the Free Software Foundation https://my.fsf.org/join ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Screen readability (was Re: The Daedalus desktop needs some love)
Hi, Steve Litt writes: > [...] > > I asked them to change it and they said "no problem, you change it at > the Grub prompt." So I tried, but they'd set the console font to about 6 > point gray on black. I asked them to change the console font and they > said I should change it, even though it was clear I couldn't change > what I can't read. This reminds me of GRUB's "dark" theme which I discovered by accident, playing around with the installer's advanced options. Forgot which one but the GRUB theme itself is pretty simple - black background - white text - yellow text for the current selection I actually liked that better than the default blue/grey/white. Maybe the Devuan installer should use it ... About not being able to change what you can't read, a screenreader might be able to solve that but I don't think it's something seeing folks would be comfortable using, let alone set up when cannot even see what you're doing ;-) Hmm, I should take another look at screenreaders. They might help me read Japanese a bit more easily. I can see it alright but sometimes I just don't know how to read (pronounce) characters. Hearing it might help prevent a trip to the dictionary ... Hope this helps, -- Olaf MeeuwissenFSF Associate Member since 2004-01-27 GnuPG key: F84A2DD9/B3C0 2F47 EA19 64F4 9F13 F43E B8A4 A88A F84A 2DD9 Support Free Softwarehttps://my.fsf.org/donate Join the Free Software Foundation https://my.fsf.org/join ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The Daedalus desktop needs some love
Hi, wirelessduck--- via Dng writes: > On 20 Jan 2022, at 23:33, Hendrik Boom wrote: > > It's nice if the desktop colours look good on a perfectly calibrated monitor. > But what's more important for it to look good on the variety of monitors > regular users use. > So we should test the imagery on the ordinary, everyday laptops and > monitors we have at home and work. > And it's important the the colours work even if one is colourblind. > I'd suggest viewing it converted to greyscale as a first try at testing > this, bt a friend of mine who is colourblind tells me it's far more > complicated than this. > > -- hendrik > > Can I suggest Color Oracle or similar as a tool to use here? > > https://colororacle.org/ > > It allows you to apply a full screen filter to simulate what a colour > blind person would be seeing if they were viewing your monitor. It is > a Java app and I’ve only tested it on Windows some years ago but it > does say Linux compatible, with a link to source code on GitHub. Web developer tools for Firefox and Chromium should also contain tools to simulate colour blindness and some other visual impairments. I have played around with a tool for Chromium a while back but don't remember it's name. Hope this helps, -- Olaf MeeuwissenFSF Associate Member since 2004-01-27 GnuPG key: F84A2DD9/B3C0 2F47 EA19 64F4 9F13 F43E B8A4 A88A F84A 2DD9 Support Free Softwarehttps://my.fsf.org/donate Join the Free Software Foundation https://my.fsf.org/join ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The Daedalus desktop needs some love
Hi, Hendrik Boom writes: > On Wed, Jan 19, 2022 at 02:08:12PM -0700, Bob Proulx via Dng wrote: >> goli...@devuan.org wrote: >> > Lars Noodén wrote: >> > > What quality of display(s) and color calibration are required? >> > >> > In all the years I have been doing this, that question has never entered my >> > mind and I have no idea how to even begin answering it. I do "eye" art not >> > "machine" art. I can perceive even one increment change in a hex. >> > >> > Problem is . . . no one can know exactly what color another person is >> > seeing. Add to that the vagaries of the monitor and . . . >> > >> > I don't know if a screenshot would capture the hex or what's showing on >> > your >> > monitor but maybe you could give it a try for the chimaera desktop and let >> > us have a look. >> >> I just want to comment that I have two identical model displays side >> by side in a dual monitor configuration on my desktop. Both are >> identical as far as any model vendor and number are concerned. Yet >> side by side it is pretty obvious to me that they have a difference in >> color tone between them. They are definitely not the same even though >> by specification they will be the same. >> >> The first order difference in my two monitors I think is that the >> backlight is not identical between them. One shows a slightly warmer >> color hue to the backlight from the other. I think that swamps other >> effects causing differences in my "matched pair". >> >> None of this really has any effect on how nice a color theme looks on >> the displays though. That's an art project more than a science project. >> >> Bob > > It's nice if the desktop colours look good on a perfectly calibrated monitor. > But what's more important for it to look good on the variety of monitors > regular users use. > So we should test the imagery on the ordinary, everyday laptops and > monitors we have at home and work. Agreed. I would also like to add that colour perception is influenced by ambient light so it isn't even a display issue. On my wide monitor I perceive the same hex-value colour differently on the left and right sides (because half is in front of the window and the other half has a wall behind it). > And it's important the the colours work even if one is colourblind. > I'd suggest viewing it converted to greyscale as a first try at testing > this, bt a friend of mine who is colourblind tells me it's far more > complicated than this. Yup. Red/green colour blindness is most common but there are many more varieties and some involve more than two colours. A greyscale version is a good first approximation to check whether colours can be told apart in case of colour blindness. Hope this helps, -- Olaf MeeuwissenFSF Associate Member since 2004-01-27 GnuPG key: F84A2DD9/B3C0 2F47 EA19 64F4 9F13 F43E B8A4 A88A F84A 2DD9 Support Free Softwarehttps://my.fsf.org/donate Join the Free Software Foundation https://my.fsf.org/join ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Another one bytes the dust
On Sat, Jan 22, 2022 at 09:12:12PM +, ael via Dng wrote: > On Sat, Jan 22, 2022 at 03:01:06PM -0500, Steve Litt wrote: > > > > Would it make any sense to invite Norbert Preining to become part of > > the Devuan project? > > I suggested that to him in a private email when that was current. > > I don't remember how or if he replied, but it was not hostile... Some memory has returned :-) At the time this mailing list had a lot of "extreme" posts and would definitely have put off anyone new. I now remember that I mentioned that to Norbert in the email, asking him not to get the wrong impresssion. I can well understand if he decided that he didn't want to be involved at that time. ael ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Another one bytes the dust
On Sat, Jan 22, 2022 at 03:01:06PM -0500, Steve Litt wrote: > > Please view the following email thread by Norbert Preining and others: > > https://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2018/12/msg00032.html > > Best I can tell, because of one recent complaint and a review of his > "tone" in 2012 to 2014, based mostly on his coc and systemd posts, he > was demoted from Developer to Maintainer by the "Debian Account > Managers". This led him to either partially, substantially or > completely withdraw from the Debian project. A quick web search tells > me his view of systemd is not positive. > > Would it make any sense to invite Norbert Preining to become part of > the Devuan project? I suggested that to him in a private email when that was current. I don't remember how or if he replied, but it was not hostile... ael ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Another one bytes the dust
Tomasz Torcz said on Sat, 22 Jan 2022 21:24:01 +0100 >On Sat, Jan 22, 2022 at 03:01:06PM -0500, Steve Litt wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> Apparently the Debian project is still using its unalterable yet >> gameable bureaucracy to screw over those whose opinions differ from >> Debian's political core... >> >> Please view the following email thread by Norbert Preining and >> others: >> >> https://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2018/12/msg00032.html > > This thread is from 3 years ago, it's not current. >But if you like this kinf of witch-hunting, maybe you will be >interested in following uncesored >https://debian.community/ and https://fsfellowship.eu/ The preceding two links constitute a Strawman Fallacy, because they're fantastical tabloid craziness. My post was from the person involved, and is undisputed, regardless of its age. You framed my central point as something completely different from what I said. You could have simply said "leave well enough alone". SteveT Steve Litt Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The Daedalus desktop needs some love
o1bigtenor via Dng said on Thu, 20 Jan 2022 07:03:27 -0600 >AIUI there are not only different forms of color blindedness but also >different levels. Putting that all together means a very large amount >of complexity. > >Likely an easy path to avoid most difficulties - - - use only strong >primary colors - - - does that solve the possible issues - - - nope >but those that are color blind have learned to cope with those specific >issues (I'm thinking of red like in stop lights). As a guy with vision correctable to 20/50 at best, I have a dog in this fight. The initial theme should: 1) Be readable by anyone who can see at all. 2) Make it trivial for anybody to create, edit or change themes. The preceding two rules would make certain that nobody is presented with a buried shovel in which if they could read the print, they could change the config, and if only they could change the config, they could read the print. 90+% of users will immediately change their theme to something prettier and less stark. The visually handicapped could copy the initial theme to their own theme and modify as necessary. I'm not color blind, but I have a pretty good idea how to make things legible to color blind people: Always have either very dark print on very light background, or very light print on very dark background. This way, the color blind person can discern by light and dark, not color on color. Also, NFT (No Friggin Transparency). For people like me with poor visual acuity, the following are important in the initial theme: * Bigtime contrast. No dark violet on dark blue, or darker violet on dark violet. * Big print. Minimum 12 point, 14 point is better. * No Friggin Transparency! Transparency is the kiss of death for those with low visual acuity. * Startlingly different window decoration for the window with focus, as opposed to the windows without focus. I think very light gray background titlebar for unfocused and very dark blue titlebar for focused would be perfect. Obviously, make the titlebar text contrast starkly with the titlebar background. Also, adding a couple pixels to the window border helps those with low vision know where the window ends and something else begins. You haven't lived until you look at a screen and can't tell which window has focus. Are my suggestions ugly? Most people think so. But please remember the vast majority will immediately switch to a theme more visually pleasing. True story... There was once a Linux project called Gobo Linux, with a packaging scheme I would have preferred to any existing. As with MS-DOS, each application had its own directory tree. That's how I like it --- screw LFS. I was starting to test it, but there was only one thing wrong: The terminal text was about 7point, dark blue on dark purple. I asked them to change it and they said "no problem, you change it at the Grub prompt." So I tried, but they'd set the console font to about 6 point gray on black. I asked them to change the console font and they said I should change it, even though it was clear I couldn't change what I can't read. I was going to publish good stuff about the Gobo project on Troubleshooters.Com. Several projects have been very glad to get publicized on Troubleshooters.Com, but I guess these guys couldn't be bothered either to make it usable for me or make it usable for those with poor eyesight. I never publicized them. As far as I can tell, their mailing list stopped functioning in November 2019, and today their IRC channel has eight people. But they stuck by their guns and kept their "viewable by GenZ only" interface. Oh well. SteveT Steve Litt Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Another one bytes the dust
On Sat, Jan 22, 2022 at 03:01:06PM -0500, Steve Litt wrote: > Hi all, > > Apparently the Debian project is still using its unalterable yet > gameable bureaucracy to screw over those whose opinions differ from > Debian's political core... > > Please view the following email thread by Norbert Preining and others: > > https://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2018/12/msg00032.html This thread is from 3 years ago, it's not current. But if you like this kinf of witch-hunting, maybe you will be interested in following uncesored https://debian.community/ and https://fsfellowship.eu/ -- Tomasz Torcz “God, root, what's the difference?” to...@pipebreaker.pl “God is more forgiving.” ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Another one bytes the dust
On 2022-01-22 14:01, Steve Litt wrote: Hi all, Apparently the Debian project is still using its unalterable yet gameable bureaucracy to screw over those whose opinions differ from Debian's political core... Please view the following email thread by Norbert Preining and others: https://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2018/12/msg00032.html Best I can tell, because of one recent complaint and a review of his "tone" in 2012 to 2014, based mostly on his coc and systemd posts, he was demoted from Developer to Maintainer by the "Debian Account Managers". This led him to either partially, substantially or completely withdraw from the Debian project. A quick web search tells me his view of systemd is not positive. Would it make any sense to invite Norbert Preining to become part of the Devuan project? SteveT I think we should stay out of Debian politics. They are looking for the slightest reason to silence any opposition to the master plan that has been set in motion so this is no surprise. Unless Norbert P. is living under a rock, he is aware of Devuan and is free to join us. Or perhaps he has escaped to the sanity of a deserted island . . . Just my .02. golinux ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Another one bytes the dust
Hi all, Apparently the Debian project is still using its unalterable yet gameable bureaucracy to screw over those whose opinions differ from Debian's political core... Please view the following email thread by Norbert Preining and others: https://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2018/12/msg00032.html Best I can tell, because of one recent complaint and a review of his "tone" in 2012 to 2014, based mostly on his coc and systemd posts, he was demoted from Developer to Maintainer by the "Debian Account Managers". This led him to either partially, substantially or completely withdraw from the Debian project. A quick web search tells me his view of systemd is not positive. Would it make any sense to invite Norbert Preining to become part of the Devuan project? SteveT Steve Litt Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The Daedalus desktop needs some love
On 2022-01-22 13:23, Lars Noodén via Dng wrote: On 1/19/22 21:46, goli...@devuan.org wrote: On 2022-01-19 12:50, Lars Noodén via Dng wrote: On 1/17/22 23:17, goli...@devuan.org wrote: [snip]> This is not a trivial task. The many pieces that need to be coordinated are described in this HOW-TO: https://git.devuan.org/devuan/documentation/src/branch/master/art/graphics/theming-devuan.md [snip] What quality of display(s) and color calibration are required? /Lars In all the years I have been doing this, that question has never entered my mind and I have no idea how to even begin answering it. I do "eye" art not "machine" art. I can perceive even one increment change in a hex. Problem is . . . no one can know exactly what color another person is seeing. Add to that the vagaries of the monitor and . . . I don't know if a screenshot would capture the hex or what's showing on your monitor but maybe you could give it a try for the chimaera desktop and let us have a look. Ok, thanks. I guess from that answer and the others, that aspect might not be so important at the moment in this project. Are the colors for Daedalus chosen already? I see that the one tar ball is about Chimaera: Clearlooks-Phenix-Deepsea. Is that a complete sample? Hi Lars . . . Yes. Colors will never display the same on any 2 monitors. I came to this realization when I first started designing websites 20 years ago and gave up trying. All the files that need to be altered are here: https://git.devuan.org/devuan/documentation/src/branch/master/art/graphics/chimaera-deepsea And the HOW-TO is here: https://git.devuan.org/devuan/documentation/src/branch/master/art/graphics/theming-devuan.md The process begins with selection of the "base colors" of the Desktop wallpaper. The Clearlooks-Phenix-* theme. The rest of the pieces cannot be created until that color palette has been chosen and finalized: https://git.devuan.org/devuan/documentation/src/branch/master/art/graphics/chimaera-deepsea/backgrounds What color does the story of Daedalus (and his son Icarus) evoke in your mind? I think of searing Mediterranean sun and intensely blue water. Play with it and see what pops up. Any questions. Just ask. :) Enjoy the journey! golinux ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Early Days at Bell Labs
On 1/21/22 22:26, Hendrik Boom wrote: [snip] Whatever the licence then, it seems to have ended up with a sufficiently free licence for Intel to put a copy of it in the management engine in their CPUs for the last decade or so *without informing Tannenbaum*. Tannenbaum was miffed; he said the licence allowed this, but he would have liked to have been informed. That move probably makes MINIX the most widely used operating system around these days: https://www.networkworld.com/article/3236064/minix-the-most-popular-os-in-the-world-thanks-to-intel.html There is at least one recorded lecture by Andrew Tannenbaum about MINIX at the BSD conferences because it mainly has a NetBSD userspace. /Lars ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The Daedalus desktop needs some love
On 1/19/22 21:46, goli...@devuan.org wrote: On 2022-01-19 12:50, Lars Noodén via Dng wrote: On 1/17/22 23:17, goli...@devuan.org wrote: [snip]> This is not a trivial task. The many pieces that need to be coordinated are described in this HOW-TO: https://git.devuan.org/devuan/documentation/src/branch/master/art/graphics/theming-devuan.md [snip] What quality of display(s) and color calibration are required? /Lars In all the years I have been doing this, that question has never entered my mind and I have no idea how to even begin answering it. I do "eye" art not "machine" art. I can perceive even one increment change in a hex. Problem is . . . no one can know exactly what color another person is seeing. Add to that the vagaries of the monitor and . . . I don't know if a screenshot would capture the hex or what's showing on your monitor but maybe you could give it a try for the chimaera desktop and let us have a look. Ok, thanks. I guess from that answer and the others, that aspect might not be so important at the moment in this project. Are the colors for Daedalus chosen already? I see that the one tar ball is about Chimaera: Clearlooks-Phenix-Deepsea. Is that a complete sample? /Lars ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Qt, KDE, unbelievable
o1bigtenor via Dng wrote: > Now if all that advertising was actually good for something except making rich > people richer - - - - Or simply paying for things that people want but don’t want to pay directly for ? The problem isn’t the advertising pe se, it’s the lengths advertisers (and some of the sites/programs that use them) go to in order to make their ad stand out more than the other garish ones served either side of it. IFF they were plain and static so we could ignore them, and IFF the noxious cesspits that serve some fo them could be trusted not to serve up malware as well, and IFF … well then there’d be no problem. But it’s this race to make them ever more difficult to ignore, and the evidenced absence of any morals in some parts of the industry that makes then a problem. As someone else pointed out, my magazines are full of ads, in part that’s how they are paid for - but those are static, they don’t jump out of the page and hit you in the face. Without them the magazine (or society subscription) would need to be higher and then less people would sign up. And yes, I have over the years seen ads that fit the “ah, I’ve been looking for something like that” category. Simon ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
