[Dng] Puppy Linux-related thoughts - was Re: API: was (for who knows what reason): Dng Digest, Vol 6, Issue 75
use of installing (or doing) the wrong thing. (That also made it easier for me to switch to Linux, back when I was primarily a Windows XP user. Not having to actually install anything on my computer, and being able to boot and run a complete, fast Puppy Linux system - rather than just a sluggish preview - via a live CD or DVD, made me feel more comfortable trying Linux, since I didn't have to put my existing Windows sytem at risk by messing with partitions or installations to get started playing with Puppy Linux.) The way I do things - if I accidentally break my Linux system, all I have to do to get back to normal with a nice, fresh default system is reboot. My computer quickly boots my frugal installation of Puppy (with no Pupsave file) from a Flash drive, and loads everything into RAM. Then, after it's finished booting, I run my Puppy Linux Setup Kit to restore all my custom settings and preferred software. http://astroblahhh.com/puppy-linux/software/apollias-puppy-linux-setup-kit/ Anyway, I'm just an amateur programmer, and the way I do things is unconventional even amongst Puppy Linux users - but maybe it will catch on someday. (I didn't even announce my setup kit scripts to the official Puppy Linux Discussion Forum yet, but I probably ought to.) I assume (but don't know) that possibly most Puppy users have a frugal installation on a hard disk or Flash drive, plus a Pupsave file to store their custom settings. I, meanwhile, don't use Pupsave files at all, since I've read Pupsave files can get corrupted, and I assume using a Pupsave file would make it more difficult for me to switch to another Puppy. Many Puppy users use a live CD or live DVD of Puppy, which they can store their settings on by saving additional sessions to the disc. I used to do that, but I noticed the more sessions I saved, the longer my system would take to boot. Also, booting from a Flash drive is much faster. Another type of Puppy installation is a "full installation". If I'm not mistaken, the difference between a Puppy full installation and a Puppy frugal installation (with a Pupsave file) is, I think a full installation isn't loaded into RAM, and changed files get saved to disk immediately, rather than being saved to a Pupsave file after a delay and either automatically and periodically, or upon the user's request. (With a frugal installation without a Pupsave file, nothing gets saved, and you just get asked at shutdown whether you want to create a Pupsave file, and you're able to refuse to create one.) I believe a frugal installation + a Pupsave file is probably the most frequently recommended way of doing things - but a full installation might in some circumstances be better, such as on a system with too little RAM to comfortably load the entire operating system into RAM. Anyway, I haven't yet heard of anyone else using a similar approach to the way I run Linux - always booting my system from scratch with a default Puppy Linux frugal installation with no Pupsave file, and then running my Puppy Linux Setup Kit to install all of my customizations and preferred software, and never saving anything to a Pupsave file, nor saving anything to a multisession live CD or DVD of Puppy. However, I've found this unusual way of doing things so beneficial, and Puppy itself seems so clever and innovative in so many ways, I just thought I'd point all this stuff out, in case these might be interesting ideas/options for Devuan to explore. Best wishes, Apollia ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Puppy Linux-related thoughts
On Mon, Mar 23, 2015 at 1:52 AM, Isaac Dunham wrote: > On Sun, Mar 22, 2015 at 11:24:03PM -0400, Apollia wrote: >> >> Regarding desktops - perhaps Puppy Linux might be a good place to look for >> some inspiration? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puppy_Linux >> >> So small, light, fast, and relatively easy to use, even for total Linux >> newbies. > > Ah yes, Puppy Linux. > I've used that a lot. > > (Most of) the standard ingredients are an apt-get away; it's usually > jwm, rxvt-unicode, mhwaveedit, geany, abiword, gnumeric, ... > > Partly it's looking for lightweight applications, partly it's avoiding > duplicates (though there are a few of those!), and partly it's the window > manager and related details. > > In a standard Puppy, there is no Python; I'm not sure if Perl is stock, > either. I think Perl is usually there, but usually with a lot of missing modules. Not sure there's any other development stuff besides Perl and Bash by default, but even those alone are nice to have, and sufficient to make my Puppy Linux Setup Kit useable without requiring people to first mount the "DevX" SFS file of development tools for their Puppy to get a more complete edition of Perl, etc. [...] >> And most Puppy Linuxes I've tried make it very easy to get on the internet, >> something I recall usually being difficult to do back in 2011 when I was a >> Windows XP user trying various Linux live discs. > > Last I knew, there were at least 3 network managers that were puppy-specific > (Simple Network Scanner, Frisbee, PeasyWifi...and maybe clinet from pupngo > counts also). > All the standard ones are written in shellscript + gtkdialog. > > Even though there's an icon for the terminal right on the desktop, the > Puppy Linux developers work on the assumption that you should never *need* > to open it to get things working. Yes, I love that assumption, even though I've learned to love having a terminal. :-) I think in the long run, whatever Linux best implements the design philosophy of making things easy and intuitive even for non-technical people to use might be the one with the best chance of someday becoming more popular than MacOS and maybe even Windows. And, since Devuan appears to have an even stronger dedication to the principles of free (as in freedom), libre software than Debian does (at the moment), I think I would be quite happy to see Devuan become the first Linux to achieve that goal. Hence, my suggestions. :-) (Would also be nice to see Puppy achieve that goal - but, for various reasons, I think Devuan's chances might be better. For one thing, Devuan actually has funding. And, Puppy has some flaws - like the "running as root" issue someone mentioned in another reply - and Devuan will probably avoid flaws like that.) [...] >> I've also increasingly been considering trying to build my own Linux from >> scratch, probably using this website as a guide: >> http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/ > > If you want a short build, look at Bootstrap Linux or ELFS: > https://github.com/pikhq/bootstrap-linux > http://kanj.github.io/elfs/book/ > (and clfs-embedded is simple too, but it's harder to get.) > > As a rule of thumb, before you try building a Linux system from scratch > you should make sure you can configure a kernel that works for your > hardware. Spoiler: "make localmodconfig" and "make localyesconfig" > are your friends. Thank you very much!! :-) Thanks also for your explanations of Puppy and Linux concepts, those helped make things clearer for me. [...] >> Anyway, I haven't yet heard of anyone else using a similar approach to the >> way I run Linux - always booting my system from scratch with a default >> Puppy Linux frugal installation with no Pupsave file, and then running my >> Puppy Linux Setup Kit to install all of my customizations and preferred >> software, and never saving anything to a Pupsave file, nor saving anything >> to a multisession live CD or DVD of Puppy. > > I haven't looked at what you do/what they did, but this sounds vaguely like > what Tinycore Linux does. Cool, I'll try TinyCore Linux eventually. :-) Thanks for pointing it out. :-) > > Thanks, > Isaac Dunham > a/k/a "ibidem" on the Puppy Linux forums I'm Apollia most everywhere, including the Puppy Linux forums (where I actually have scarcely posted at all yet). Best wishes, Apollia ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[Dng] Gobo Linux, Puppy Linux - was Re: Puppy Linux-related thoughts
On Mon, Mar 23, 2015 at 4:59 AM, Joel Roth wrote: > Apollia wrote: >> I've also increasingly been considering trying to build my own Linux from >> scratch, probably using this website as a guide: >> http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/ > > There are more automated ways to do this: > > http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/alfs/ > > You may be interested to know that Gobo Linux is based on ALFS. > > -- > Joel Roth Cool, thanks for introducing me to this stuff. :-D I'm delighted by Gobo Linux's novel approach to organizing the standard Linux directory structure! http://www.gobolinux.org/?page=at_a_glance I've always been bothered by how confusing and disorganized Linux's standard directory structure seems, and wished I had way to stop packages from scattering their contents everywhere, and instead put everything together in one place. But, I never tried to fix that myself, since I assumed it was probably an unfixable problem (with any solution maybe being more likely to cause worse problems than the problem of all the confusing disorganization), because every Linux I ever tried did things the usual way. The closest thing to an improvement I previously knew of was Puppy Linux's layered filesystem (described here: http://puppylinux.com/development/howpuppyworks.html ) and SFS (SquashFS) files. One reason SFS files appeal to me is because, in Puppy, using a Bash script named "sfs_load", you can install and uninstall a lot of files in seconds just by mounting or unmounting an SFS file, with (I believe) less risk of overwriting existing files than using a Puppy .pet file to install things. (There are glitches at times - http://astroblahhh.com/puppy-linux/Some_Puppy_Linux_Basics.shtml#sfs-related-glitches-ive-encountered - but I'm sure those could be fixed somehow.) Overall, using SFS files seems to me to be tidier, more organized and well-contained than just installing things directly to the main layer. But, since I don't know of a way to view only certain layers instead of all the layers combined, even Puppy's SFS files add to my unpleasant perception of clutter everywhere. http://www.gobolinux.org/index.php?page=documentation The Compile, ChrootCompile, and Recipes parts of Gobo Linux also catch my eye. Those might rescue me from trying to reinvent some wheels. :-) I was just recently thinking (and even blogging) about how it would probably be better in general if people were less dependent on repositories of precompiled software, and had more automated tools to assist them in downloading and compiling software packages themselves. I look forward to trying Gobo Linux at some point and seeing if it works as well as I hope. :-) Wonder if any of its features might be good in Devuan, too? I'll also try ALFS eventually. Thanks again. :-) Best wishes, Apollia ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[Dng] Puppy Linux, AntiX - was Re: Puppy Linux-related thoughts
op that. I finally noticed that DebianDog, which is somewhat related to Puppy, unfortunately has systemd: http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=93225 But, fortunately, DebianDog doesn't qualify as a "mainline", official Puppy distro, since it's not built using Puppy's "woof" system. A blog post by Barry Kauler (creator of Puppy Linux) - http://bkhome.org/news/?viewDetailed=00124 - says: "Puppies built from woof-CE are following the "mainline"." and: 'The latest "official" Puppy, built from woof-CE, is Tahrpup 6.0' > Hopefully, the developers will resist the > urge to surrender. Yes. And hopefully someday there will be a DevuanDog. :-) > > Wolfgang Pirker wrote: >> There is also AntiX. The main developer behind it seems also not to be >> happy about how Debian Jessie users are forced to use SystemD: >> http://antix.freeforums.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5280 >> >>(if anyone is more interested about a AntiX (Jessie-based) release >> without SystemD - a Beta release: >> http://distrowatch.com/?newsid=08851 ) Thanks for the info! > > Wow! I'm familiar with AntiX, having used it long ago, but I hadn't realized > that the latest beta is Jessie-based and systemd-free. So now I have to ask: > Isn't that pretty much what we're doing here with Devuan? Perhaps I should > rephrase that: In what ways is AntiX different from Devuan? And is there any > possibility of collaborating with Anticapitalista (the developer)? > > cheers, > Robert I'm just a newbie around here (and relatively new to Linux, only been using it since 2011), so I wouldn't know how to answer. But I like your questions. :-) Anyway, I don't normally post very much to the internet at all (except my own website and Tumblr), and I'm nowhere near as technically knowledgeable as I wish I was. I wish I had switched to Linux years ago - I have years and years of catching up to do, and don't know if I'll ever be able to reach the point of being an expert on anything. So, I don't know if I'll soon think of anything more that seems worthwhile to say, and I'll probably soon go back to being mostly quiet. But, I'll at least be silently cheering for Devuan. :-) Thanks to everyone in the Devuan community, and congratulations on all the progress! Best wishes, Apollia ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Too many man pages, too much complicated : systemd
On Mon, Apr 6, 2015 at 11:01 AM, Steve Litt wrote: > On Mon, 06 Apr 2015 11:24:54 +0200 > Joerg Reisenweber wrote: > > >> Please by all means avoid "friendly fire" towards shots you hear in >> front of you - it's not the enemy, it's just your peers, we're all >> looking (and fighting) same direction. >> >> BR >> /j > > Joerg, > > When the organization has made a foundational policy decision, so they > can move forward and implement that policy, yet somebody keeps trying > to open up that policy to further debate, is that somebody's fire > really friendly? Are they looking and fighting in the same direction, > or are they deliberately retarding progress in that direction? > > SteveT > > Steve Litt > Twenty Eight Tales of Troubleshooting > http://www.troubleshooters.com/28 I can't remember the exact quote, but I think there's some quote I heard somewhere about why enemies aren't necessarily a bad thing to have. Basically something like, you'll discover your weaknesses sooner by observing what your enemies try to exploit, and thus you might learn more from your enemies than from listening to nothing but praise and often overly soft and gentle criticism from allies. So, I think perhaps even someone with bad intentions (though I haven't yet noticed anyone who seems to me to have bad intentions) could maybe inadvertently help us. Also, I think it might be good to talk about systemd's good points so we can get ideas on how to better undermine systemd by providing superior alternatives to everything worthwhile that systemd does well (if there is anything). If systemd's good points are implemented in freedom-respecting alternatives, people will have less reason to accept the drawbacks of systemd, including the erosion of freedom resulting from systemd engulfing way too many important functions of Linux, which (if I understand correctly) has been leading other software to make itself overly dependent on systemd. Discussing systemd's good points in depth could help us zero in on lots of new ideas for alternatives that we could create (or promote, if good alternatives already exist). If systemd didn't have any good points at all, (hopefully) no one would use it. And, as someone on a blog I read said about the good points of something other than systemd: "That's called bait. Now find the hook." (Quote source: https://igurublog.wordpress.com/2014/01/25/gtk-fesses-up-this-aint-for-you-qt-takes-over-the-world/ ) We've definitely already found many hooks, but, I think we might benefit by studying the systemd bait as well. :-) Carrying the bait/hook analogy a bit further: It looks to me like one of the goals of Devuan might be to make it so we "fish" (Linux users) can all have tasty morsels to eat that will taste just as good or better than the systemd "bait" (the good parts of systemd) - with the most important and beneficial difference being that our tasty morsels will be free of dangerous hidden hooks (or in other words, anything like the bad parts of systemd, or anything else which is anti-freedom). We fish have the right to tasty food that doesn't contain hooks. :-) Unfortunately, not all fish even acknowledge the existence of hooks. In fact, some fish quite harshly deny the existence of hooks, and prefer to believe that the fish who are aware of the hooks and want to save other fish from the hooks are just "trolls" instead of well-intentioned fellow fish who are making a valid point. For many of the naive fish, perhaps believing in hooks is just too scary, and having to search for (or cultivate) hook-free food seems like too much nuisance. But, fortunately, providing the tastiest food possible will enable us to rescue even the fish who are oblivious to hooks and only care about whether something tastes good or not, and whether it's ready to eat right now. With their hunger satisfied by our not only tasty but nutritious food, even the most naive fish won't be so tempted by bait on a hook anymore. :-) By the way, I don't have a clear technical understanding of systemd, so, my ideas about systemd are just the impressions I got after reading others' opinions on systemd. (I just don't want anyone to mistakenly think I have a well-informed technical opinion.) Also, this picture influenced me a lot. :-) http://devopsreactions.tumblr.com/post/112502661235/watching-systemd-evolve This post is amusing too, but, I'm not sure if it's as educational: http://devopsreactions.tumblr.com/post/97126865868/systemd Anyway, all feedback/criticism/comments/corrections/etc. are welcome. :-) Best wishes, Apollia ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Too many man pages, too much complicated : systemd
On Mon, Apr 6, 2015 at 4:50 PM, T.J. Duchene wrote: > > > >> >> What really puzzles me is why if you love systemd that much you just >> continue arguing about systemd on the ML of a Debian fork specifically > born >> to throw systemd away. Do you think you might be able to convince us that >> systemd is *good* and *beautiful* and *necessary*? I don't want to be >> saved, thanks ;) > > [T.J. ] To answer your question directly, you speak your mind, I speak > mine. All well and good. If you disagree with me, that is certainly your > right, and I've always respected that. I do not understand why my response > to a "registry joke" by saying that Linux already has a registry in the form > of gconf has anything to do with systemd. I'm not accusing you of > anything, KatolaZ, and I certainly do not want to argue on the list. I am > genuinely puzzled. I'm not trying to change your mind on anything. I'm > certainly not trying to "save" anyone. I regard you as a respected > colleague, who I simply do not always agree with. > > I am getting the general impression from on and off the list, that my > comments are not welcome here, and that my continued presence is a > distraction. Very well. I was going to give it some more thought, but I > think it would be best if I simply left the list by the end of the day. > Anything I do with Devuan will be discussed elsewhere. I'll stay on the > list long enough to finish wrap up a few comments with Jeromil, and a few > others. > > Take care, and no hard feelings. > > T.J. I like your comments and would be happy to see you stay! I also like everyone else's comments! I am usually too shy to say much myself, and not technical enough to even follow a lot of what is said on this list - but, nonetheless, I'd like to say, I am really inspired by Devuan's mission, progress, and what a great group of people has gathered here, and I think I'm learning a lot just by reading and trying to understand things as best I can. Thanks everyone! Best wishes, Apollia ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] dev-list
On Tue, Apr 7, 2015 at 8:09 PM, Robert Storey wrote: > >> Good point. But I thought the reason for the suggestion was because of >> the amount of fairly useless chatter on this list that the devs have to >> wade >> through. (Honestly, it annoys me too.) Sorry if I added to anyone's annoyance! I mistakenly thought there probably already was a dev-only list somewhere. And also, the bottom of the front page of http://devuan.org/ says this list is the "General discussion" list, which I assumed meant not-so-technical discussion was fine too, especially since I saw various non-technical discussions already occurring. I like the idea of a dev list, but I also like the idea of there being a place for general discussions too, so devs and ordinary users can all interact if we wish. I'm also glad there is a forum: http://talk.devuan.org/ I actually prefer forums over mailing lists in general because forums seem to be more organized, which makes it easier for people to avoid anything they're uninterested in. Perhaps I'll post there more than here in the future. >> If there is a -dev list, I would >> sign up >> to see what's happening Me too. >> but it's unlikely I would participate because I'm >> not really qualified to do so. Same here, even though I can program a bit, and am learning more all the time. > All good points. Just want to add though that probably one of the causes of > all the idle chatter is that we in the audience don't yet have Devuan in our > hot little hands, so we have no technical questions, no bug reports, etc. > All we can do for entertainment chat about what Richard Stallman thinks of > systemd, suggest that Pottering is evil, and enquire about when Devuan-alpha > will be released. I try to avoid those silly discussions, but have > occasionally broken down and participated. I don't feel _too_ guilty about having participated in non-technical discussions here, since this _is_ described on the front page of http://devuan.org/ as the "General discussion" list. But, again, I apologize if I annoyed anyone - even though as far as I know, none of the discussions lately broke any official rules. And, sorry if I'm mistaken and if any of the discussions actually did break some rules I didn't know about. > Once we have the alpha in our hot little hands, we can begin to discuss the > real technology, Yes, I look forward to that. :-) > and stop wasting developers' time with trivia. And I may > finally start my long-awaited project to help writing the documentation. > > cheers, > Robert I hope I'll be able to make myself useful too somehow. Best wishes, Apollia ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] straw poll, non-free firmware for installers
On Thu, Jun 4, 2015 at 3:26 PM, Franco Lanza wrote: > I think we can draw a line in this discussion this way: > > Daniel will implement the installer in the way he was saying, > adding non-free firmwares limited to the ones that if missed are > blocking for the installer ( so, nothing more than few firmwares for > things like network cards or wifi, for example ), with the choice for > the user to select them but disabled by default, and making the user > knowing that he is selecting a non-free firmware. > > This will be our default installer. > > When our infrastructure will use that installer to build the iso images, > a script will also build another image with all those non-free firmware > removed, and this will be our "free" image. > > Both will be marked as "official", and the name of the generated isos > will be something like devuan-jessie-...-full.iso and > devuan-jessie-...-free.iso > > This way i hope we will make all happy. > > > -- > > Franco (nextime) Lanza > Lonate Pozzolo (VA) - Italy > SIP://c...@casa.nexlab.it > web: http://www.nexlab.net > > NO TCPA: http://www.no1984.org > you can download my public key at: > http://danex.nexlab.it/nextime.asc || Key Servers > Key ID = D6132D50 > Key fingerprint = 66ED 5211 9D59 DA53 1DF7 4189 DFED F580 D613 2D50 > --- > echo > 16i[q]sa[ln0=aln100%Pln100/snlbx]sbA0D212153574F444E49572045535520454D20454B414D204F54204847554F4E452059415020544F4E4E4143205345544147204C4C4942snlbxq > | dc > --- > Sounds good to me! The only thing I'd change is the names of the ISOs, since "full" vs. "free" might imply to some people that the "free" version is incomplete and inferior to the "full" version. I would prefer to imply that the non-libre version is the flawed inferior version. So, maybe names like: devuan-jessie-...-nonfree-nonlibre.iso and devuan-jessie-...-freelibre.iso I definitely agree with having both versions, even though I try to avoid anything non-libre. I would love to switch to purely libre hardware if I had the money, but, I don't, and most people in the world might not either, judging by this page: http://www.globalissues.org/article/26/poverty-facts-and-stats So, I definitely think it's best for Devuan to be installable on as wide a variety of hardware as possible. I would find it particularly amusing if it were possible to install Devuan on an iPhone. :-) Or anything else the average person wouldn't expect Linux to work on. Someone gave me an iPhone 4S a few years ago in the hope that I would use it to make a living writing proprietary software. Since I wasn't willing to do that, it's not much use to me, so, maybe I'll experiment with trying to get Devuan to work on it someday. :-) (Unless I hear that it's totally unfeasible.) Probably just a daydream, at least for now, because I have so many other things I need to get done at the moment, and also because it's very likely beyond my current skills. I haven't yet even attempted to build _any_ Linux from scratch yet, though I still intend to someday. Best wishes, Apollia ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Pie in the sky: Devuan on nonfree phones and tablets
On Thu, Jun 4, 2015 at 5:14 PM, Hendrik Boom wrote: > On Thu, Jun 04, 2015 at 04:20:33PM -0400, Apollia wrote: > > > > I would find it particularly amusing if it were possible to install > Devuan > > on an iPhone. :-) Or anything else the average person wouldn't expect > > Linux to work on. > > > > Someone gave me an iPhone 4S a few years ago in the hope that I would use > > it to make a living writing proprietary software. Since I wasn't willing > > to do that, it's not much use to me, so, maybe I'll experiment with > trying > > to get Devuan to work on it someday. :-) (Unless I hear that it's > totally > > unfeasible.) > > I would *love* to replace Android with Devuan on my ASUS Transformer > tablet, initially as dual-boot until I manage to migrate completely. > > Pie in the sky, for now. > > -- hendrik > Thanks for the feedback. :-) I'll keep focusing on more practical things for now, then. :-) Best wishes, Apollia ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[Dng] Puppy Linux, Devuan Puppy & hardware - Re: straw poll, non-free firmware for installers
I already posted a little about Puppy Linux in the past - but, it seems appropriate and particularly on topic to mention it again now, because, at least from my not-very-technical perspective, one of Puppy Linux's strengths appears to be compatibility with a wide variety of hardware, usually without requiring the users to fiddle with settings much or at all. With Puppy, the most elaborate thing I ever had to do to make some hardware work was compile and install a driver for a USB wireless internet adapter. (Oh, and then there were the things I was only able to figure out how to use with a Windows XP VirtualBox rather than natively in Linux - a scanner and an HPNA internet adapter.) Puppy (at least the Puppies I tried) unfortunately doesn't tell you if it's using anything non-free, nor give you the option to exclude those non-free things. But, other than that, it has usually been close to ideal for me. I haven't tried it with an incredibly wide variety of hardware, but it has usually worked fine with most things I tried, even some rather surprising things, like old Macs. :-) Maybe Puppy has some hardware-related scripts or something which Devuan could use or modify? I don't know many details, but there is apparently already Devuan support in woof-CE, the community edition of the software used to build Puppy Linuxes. This page is from last April: https://github.com/puppylinux-woof-CE/woof-CE/pull/528 I don't know if anyone has yet released a Devuan-based Puppy ISO. But, if I understand correctly, woof-CE is the software anyone can now use to build such an ISO. Maybe stuff from that could be used in Devuan itself? As for how Puppy deals with legal issues related to distributing non-free firmware - I haven't been able to find many details so far just from searching the web. But, on the blog of Barry Kauler (creator of Puppy Linux), there's a post from May 17, 2008 where he writes: http://bkhome.org/blog/?viewDetailed=00099 "Anyway, I now have compiled 'slusb.ko' but apparently I can't legally put it into Puppy for distribution. I have mumbled some appropriate expletives, won't type them here." So, judging by that, I assume Puppy probably is mindful of such issues and probably follows the law, yet still manages to do a good job of being compatible with a wide variety of hardware. One of my top suggestions for a specific, existing Puppy distro to look at and maybe use stuff from would be Wary Puppy, since it's specifically designed to be compatible with old hardware. http://distro.ibiblio.org/quirky/wary-5.5/release-Wary-5.5.htm Wary is the Puppy that worked best for me on an old computer that even some somewhat recent Puppies didn't work quite right on - a Toughbook CF-28 whose screen blacked out after X started while running Lucid Puppy 5.2.8 and Slacko 5.7. If I recall correctly, the worst problem I had with the CF-28 and Wary was that the CF-28's touchscreen wasn't properly calibrated out of the box (and I never figured out how to calibrate it). My other top suggestion would be Lighthouse 64 Puppy 6.02 Beta 2, my favorite of all the 64-bit Puppies I've tried. http://www.lhpup.org/ - Lighthouse 64 Puppy's home page I was astonished when I was able to get Puppy to work on some old Macs, with very little trouble at all (if I recall correctly) - just by booting from a CD or DVD. I actually was able to use Lighthouse 64 Puppy 6.02 Beta 2 on a 2008 Mac Pro desktop! A model of Mac that some describe as being like a giant cheese grater. :-) http://www.souledesigns.com/blog/2013/06/mac-pro-kitchen-nightmare And I got both Lucid Puppy 5.2.8 and I think also a Lighthouse Puppy (forgot what version) to boot on a MacBook from 2009. http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=70855 Official discussion thread for Lucid Puppy 5.2.8 Another nice thing about Lighthouse 64 Puppy 6.02 Beta 2 is that right out of the box, it somehow manages to perfectly calibrate the touchscreen of my Toughbook CF-C1 (a newer and far less rugged Toughbook than the CF-28). No other Puppy I tried did that, though at least the touchscreen somewhat worked, even though I couldn't figure out how to calibrate it. (Actually, I might only have tried one other Puppy with the CF-C1 - Lucid Puppy 5.2.8.) Anyway, I hope this helps. I guess I'll go back to being mostly quiet again, since I can't think of much else to say besides praise, thanks, and things like "I agree". :-) Thanks to everyone for all your wonderful efforts! Best wishes, Apollia ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] non-systemd Linux for newbies with good migration tool?
On Sun, Aug 9, 2015 at 11:35 PM, T.J. Duchene wrote: > > > On 08/09/2015 08:14 PM, Isaac Dunham wrote: > >> Hello, >> I'm looking for a Linux distro that I could recommend to friends who are >> rather frustrated with Windows 10. >> The friends in question ask me about how to fix problems with their >> computers from time to time. >> > With the greatest respect, Isaac, by my experience, I think you are > wasting your time. > > Every single time I have offered to replace Windows with Linux about 95% > of them return to Windows within one month. It is what they want. They > want what they already know. They want to use their existing software, and > everything commercial to "just work". This not to say that Linux has a > problem, it is simply acknowledging reality. They don't want change. The > only ones who can handle the change are the fully committed: "power users" > and IT professionals. In over 20 years in this business, I can tell you one > thing for certain: the IT marketplace is deliberately designed to prevent > "replacement." > Back in 2012 when I was even more of a Linux newbie than I am now, running Windows XP inside VirtualBox made it tremendously easier for me to transition to primarily using Linux. https://www.virtualbox.org/ To this day, I actually still use a Windows XP VirtualBox quite frequently, because I still haven't found or built replacements for some Windows software I still use. All the Windows XP software I frequently use runs pretty well in VirtualBox, though a bit slower than real Windows. I seldom go back to non-virtual Windows XP except to play games on rare occasions, or to listen to music with the fancy reverb my sound card can do in Windows. Anything with fancy 3D graphics tends to work poorly for me in VirtualBox. I didn't try too many things like that, but I had little luck with the astronomy software Celestia, and the games Second Life and Dungeon Siege. Even The Sims didn't work well at all. (I think the audio played but the graphics didn't display right.) However, I was surprised and thrilled in 2012 to find out that I could watch Netflix quite smoothly using VirtualBox, even on a somewhat underpowered computer, 2.1 GHz dual core with only 1 GB of RAM, in Lucid Puppy Linux 5.2. But, I no longer use VirtualBox for Netflix because it's much nicer to watch Netflix (or even YouTube) on a TV using a Roku. In my experience, VirtualBox runs Windows stuff much better than Wine does. https://www.winehq.org/ I'm also reluctant to use Wine because I worry that maybe it might make my Linux system vulnerable to Windows viruses. I love how VirtualBox keeps my Windows stuff (or anything else I don't fully trust, such as Java) isolated from my Linux system. I use VirtualBox's shared folders feature and symlinks to selectively give my VirtualBoxes access to things outside of VirtualBox. And oftentimes I don't even give my VirtualBoxes internet access. I hope I would have still managed to transition to primarily Linux if I hadn't had VirtualBox - but, it would've been a lot more difficult, uncomfortable, and inconvenient. I probably would have ended up frequently running two different computers at the same time (one with Windows XP, one with Linux) if I hadn't had VirtualBox. So, I highly recommend VirtualBox for helping Windows users transition to Linux! Best wishes, Apollia > The essentials would be: >> -has a *good* Windows migration assistant, which must be able to handle >> Windows 10; I know that Ubuntu used to have this. >> >> You should never trust a tool to migrate data. Always do it yourself > from a backup, lest ye suffer a terrible fate. > >> -glibc-based, so that Flash and Avast Workstation will work >> >> Flash is dead. There is absolutely no reason to use it at all on Linux, > and even if you do, all the functioning Linux versions are crippled by > design. > > The NPAPI (netscape/firefox) version is the last one available on Linux > with DRM video support, at version 11.2. It is severely crippled by the > requirement to use hal, which is no longer supported by the vast majority > of Linux distributions. Adobe refuses to update it to remove the hal > requirement, now that Google makes the Linux version of Flash. Google has > deliberately crippled the existing version used in Chrome so that it is > incapable of DRM, except on Android. > > This means you will get no commercial streaming video using Flash on Linux > without Google's blessing. The only way around that is some "severe > hackery" that only programmers are capable of. As another point of > mention, you cannot get DVDs or Blu-ray to play back without using software > which may
[DNG] Free Software Foundation (FSF) Vision Survey
The Free Software Foundation (FSF) is doing a survey until the end of January: https://my.fsf.org/civicrm/profile/create?gid=403&reset=1&pk_campaign=survey-launch&pk_kwd=survey The FSF's blog post about it: http://www.fsf.org/news/whats-your-vision-for-the-fsf-fill-out-our-survey-1 A couple quotes from the blog post: "Taking the first step into our next thirty years, we want to hear your feedback, your suggestions, and your vision for the future of the FSF." (...) "The FSF eagerly awaits the results, and we plan to publicly share insights from them." End of quotes. I haven't yet answered the survey myself, since I'm still working on some rather long replies to it. But I definitely plan on mentioning my support for Devuan and my concerns about systemd, among various other things. I think feedback from people involved with the Devuan project would be very valuable and worthwhile for the FSF to receive. And getting attention from the FSF, or maybe even endorsement by the FSF, could probably also help Devuan. I've been quiet on this mailing list for many months, but I'm still here, and still cheering for you all. :-) Best wishes, Apollia ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Readable code; making code more easily writable; Emacs, multifiles-apmod; VUE; Code Bubbles; Lisp; Inform 7; HyperCard and HyperTalk - was Re: "Common knowledge?"-question
On Fri, Jan 22, 2016 at 4:34 PM, Rainer Weikusat <
rainerweiku...@virginmedia.com> wrote:
> Can the effect of the following C function
>
> static void print_start(char const *name, char const *what)
> {
> char *buf, *p;
> unsigned name_len, what_len, total;
>
> name_len = strlen(name);
> what_len = strlen(what);
> total = name_len + what_len + 3;
>
> p = buf = alloca(total);
> memcpy(p, name, name_len);
> p += name_len;
> *p++ = ' ';
> memcpy(p, what, what_len);
> p += what_len;
> *p++ = ':';
> *p = ' ';
>
> *buf &= ~0x20;
>
> Write(2, buf, total);
> }
>
> be considered obvious or should it rather get an explanation?
>
> An ASCII lowercase letter can be turned into the corresponding uppercase
> letter by clearing the sixth bit.
>
I'm quite inexperienced with C, so I don't understand that function at all,
despite having some experience with PHP, Perl, JavaScript, SQL, Bash, Emacs
Lisp, Python, and various other things.
I find it so mind-boggling I can't make any very specific suggestions for
how to make it more understandable.
But, I definitely agree with adding explanations, and others' suggestions
also sound good to me (though I'm probably not really qualified to judge).
Anyway, the rest of my message is going to consist of hopefully
interesting/useful tangents related to the topics of making code more
readable, and more easily writable.
I think if I ever did code much in C, my code would end up looking very
unusual and unconventional to many people, because I often like to use
long, descriptive names for functions and variables, no matter what
language I'm using, even Bash.
Ideally I'd like to make my scripts as readable/understandable as plain
English. (Not that I constantly strive for that - it's often too much
work.)
Here's one recent example of my perhaps rather strange coding style - an
Emacs add-on I modified a lot. (Actually, maybe a better example would be
the even more recent shell scripts I've been working on for my Puppy Linux
Setup Kit, but those aren't done yet.)
https://github.com/Apollia/multifiles-apmod.el/blob/master/multifiles-apmod.el
https://github.com/Apollia/multifiles-apmod.el
And here's the original add-on's source code (not by me):
https://github.com/magnars/multifiles.el/blob/master/multifiles.el
(If anyone has any comments, criticism, tips, etc., on multifiles-apmod or
any other topics, I'd be interested to read them, even via private email if
they're too off-topic for the mailing list.)
Actually, I think at the moment, multifiles-apmod is probably the best
already-useable thing I worked on that I can contribute to Devuan. (At
least until I finish some of my other projects...)
multifiles-apmod, Emacs (which I finally started seriously using almost 3
months ago), and the many other great Emacs add-ons I've installed, have
all made my programming hobby tremendously easier and more enjoyable.
Even my former favorite text editors (Notepad++ and Geany) were slowing me
down and getting in my way, because I had so many separate files in
different tabs to work on that it was becoming quite a nuisance having to
click tabs all the time, and struggle to remember what files I put things
in, or do searches.
And bookmarks in Notepad++ and Geany (as far as I know) don't let you jump
to locations in different files - only the current file you're working on.
But now, with multifiles-apmod, I can work on numerous separate files all
in a single large buffer. I can quickly and easily get an overview of my
entire projects just by scrolling around, and I can jump from file to file
by pressing Ctrl-Page Up or Ctrl-Page Down.
And I found 3 different bookmark add-ons for Emacs that I like. :-)
multifiles-apmod definitely has some problems (as you can read in the
readme, or the giant comments section at the top of the source code), and
I'm still very inexperienced with Emacs and Emacs Lisp - but, nonetheless,
multfiles-apmod has still been very useful to me, and has already saved me
a lot of time and frustration.
So, since multifiles-apmod, Emacs, etc. have done me so much good, I just
thought I'd mention them, in case they might help anyone here too.
https://github.com/Apollia/multifiles-apmod.el
Another thing that helps me code is the VUE concept mapping software:
http://vue.tufts.edu/
I use it for making notes, flow charts, documentation, etc.
I sometimes wish I could use VUE as a GUI for editing my actual code. But,
that's not possible (yet?).
The only thing I've heard of so far which can do something like that is a
Java program called Code Bubbles - which I haven't tried yet, since it
might only be for editing Java code, and I mostly haven't done much
Re: [DNG] Readable code; making code more easily writable; Emacs, multifiles-apmod; VUE; Code Bubbles; Lisp; Inform 7; HyperCard and HyperTalk - was Re: "Common knowledge?"-question
On Sun, Jan 24, 2016 at 4:08 PM, Rainer Weikusat < rainerweiku...@virginmedia.com> wrote: > Apollia writes: > > [...] > > > I think if I ever did code much in C, my code would end up looking very > > unusual and unconventional to many people, because I often like to use > > long, descriptive names for functions and variables, no matter what > > language I'm using, even Bash. > > This style isn't really uncommon for people used to IDEs doing > identifier auto-completion. But that's not only a bitch to work with > without it but also difficult to read because of the sheer verbosity of > the text. Eg, using an identifier > > combined-list-of-files-in-all-source-folders > > doesn't really communicate more than 'all-files' or even just 'all' (if > the files is evident from the context) would. > Thanks for the feedback! Perhaps as I get more comfortable with programming in general I'll stop relying so much on the crutch of overly verbose names. I know I overdo it to some extent. But another thing I like about long, unique, non-generic names is that when doing searches, I can more easily find definitely related pieces of code, and avoid finding a lot of unrelated pieces of code which just happen to use the same generic variable names like "x" or "all". If I were a painter instead of a coder, perhaps I might be more of an impressionist than a realist or a minimalist. But even that might be too complimentary of my style. :-) Rather than impressionist, I'm maybe more of a hasty, impatient finger-painter specializing in abstract blobs. :-) Or a caricaturist who exaggerates many things ridiculously. :-) But, hopefully I'll learn to do better after plenty more practice, and continuing to strive to learn as much as I can from wiser and more knowledgeable people than me, such as you and probably everyone here. I'm probably going to go back to being mostly quiet now since I can't think of much else of interest to add. But, thanks to you and everyone for all your fascinating, very educational posts, and all the wonderful work you're all doing on Devuan! Best wishes, Apollia ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] The Pineapple Fund is giving away millions of dollars to good causes
Hi everyone! On one of the other mailing lists I sometimes read - the Niteowl mailing list, about sleep issues - http://lists.circadiandisorders.org/listinfo.cgi/niteowl-circadiandisorders.org - someone recently mentioned The Pineapple Fund. https://pineapplefund.org/ Basically, if I understand correctly, the Pineapple Fund is an anonymous Bitcoin millionaire giving away millions of dollars to good causes via Bitcoin. The application form is closing Dec. 27th. The Pineapple Fund page currently says the fund donated $1 million to the EFF (Electronic Frontier Foundation) - https://www.eff.org/ $1 million to the Internet Archive - http://archive.org/ $50k to OpenBSD - http://www.openbsdfoundation.org/ And $1 million or less to 10 other charities so far. I personally don't know very much about the Pineapple Fund, nor Bitcoin itself, nor how legitimate or not this is. So, sorry if this isn't actually as helpful and great as I hope it is. But, various media articles have been written about the Pineapple Fund. https://www.google.com/search?q=the+pineapple+fund&safe=off&source=lnms&tbm=nws&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjwnvOdi6LYAhUHSCYKHSZtD_AQ_AUICigB&biw=939&bih=520 A few direct links to media articles: https://gizmodo.com/an-anonymous-bitcoin-millionaire-is-donating-their-fort-1821340050 https://www.pcmag.com/news/357999/pineapple-fund-giving-away-86-million-in-bitcoins-to-char http://mashable.com/2017/12/14/bitcoin-charity/ https://thenextweb.com/hardfork/2017/12/14/bitcoin-85m-invest-fund-pineapple/ I also found this worrying article which mentions Bitcoin recently crashing: https://gizmodo.com/bitcoin-crashed-and-took-the-whole-market-down-with-it-1821529613 Anyway, I just thought I'd point The Pineapple Fund out, in case anyone from Devuan might like to try applying. Thank you all so much for all your awesome work on Devuan, and I hope this helps! Happy holidays to all! Apollia ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
