Re: [DNG] [SPAM] Re: [SPAM] Re: Way forward
In beowulf at least you can use libelogind0 in place of libsystemd0 but packages still require something that provides it. libelogind0 shares some code with libsystemd0 and of course we only need it to provide some desktops, so there are things left where we don't need it. In beowulf at least you can use libelogind0 which is a slight relief :) Cheers, chillfan ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐ On Sunday, April 14, 2019 8:59 AM, aitor_czr wrote: > On 14/4/19 9:55, aitor_czr wrote: > > > On 13/4/19 16:34, mett wrote: > > > > > While everybody is obviously free to leave if he realizes he does not > > > share the same goal as the rest of the project, we are still facing a > > > crisis. I thus believe that we should win over people who supported > > > devuan in the > > > past, not fight with them. > > > > Of course, i agree. And they are free to decide. But my words have not been > > aimed against > > any people who supported devuan in the past, neither against Centurion Dan > > nor against KatolaZ. > > I was referring to such person who decided to end his membership of the > > list *making noice*. > > Please, if someone else takes the same way in the future, do it as a > > gentleman. Imho, it's the time to > > end this thread. > > Cheers, > > Aitor. > > *noise* publickey - chillfan@protonmail.com - 0xB179B25B.asc Description: application/pgp-keys signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Way forward
IMHO.. I mentioned before that I didn't take your joke badly, and I do think others shouldn't either. About corporations: If they are that interested in Devuan (and yes I'm repeating myself) they should put some dedicated maintainers our way so we can remove all of libsystemd0. I've often heard it said 'linux' would be nowhere without them but consider that we've found ourselves in the situation where systemd must be removed, because they insisted on inserting it into every piece of userland they could. After a little thought my view is that we can't afford to care about what they think. It's a simple exchange where everyone benefits, but as to what they think this shouldn't go anywhere near development. I don't think we should constrain ourselves in our personalities or viewpoint we have, there's enough of that shit going around. If we start arguing over a joke that landed on april fools, I wonder how long it is until we get COC'd to death. Cheers, chillfan ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐ On Thursday, April 11, 2019 9:19 AM, KatolaZ wrote: > Dear D1rs, > > the first Devuan Conference last weekend was an incredible experience, > which confirmed that Devuan has lots of energy, strength, imagination, > humanity, and willpower to succeed in its quest. Devuan is in > excellent hands, and it is destined to grow from strength to strength. > > I joined this project much before it was called Devuan, and I have > always considered it a battle worth to be fought, day after day. I > promised myself that I would have continued contributing to Devuan > until the day we would have started talking corporate bullshit, or > stopped trusting each other, or given up on having fun. > > In the last ten days all those threee things have materialised, to > different degrees. Hence, I have decided to withdraw from Devuan and > will now take an indefinite leave from the project. > > Please forget this thread and do not waste any single bit on it: I > will not read and I will not reply. If you have time to spare, use it > to help Devuan in any way you can. Beowulf is very close, it will be a > fantastic release and it will finally close the gap with upstream :) > > Thanks for your passion and for the great community you make: this is > what powers Devuan, and what has made the miracle come true against > all odds. > > Live, Love, GNU/Linux, and never forget to Laugh Your Asses Off ;) > > I'll see you around. > > KatolaZ, the last humble servant > > > > [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ] > [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] > [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] > [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] > [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] > > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng publickey - chillfan@protonmail.com - 0xB179B25B.asc Description: application/pgp-keys signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] dbus as a nuisance and cause of bugs
Aside from the nuisance of constant warnings and attempts by programs to connect to a daemon that isn't available (mainly dbus and pulse) and the thing with machine-id spam.. I've just found that xorg will constantly spam the xorg logs every 10 seconds due to libdbus support if it cannot connect to the daemon. This is an open issue with debian but I have opened it also as a Devuan bug since I think it's likely to affect some here who don't bother to run dbus. Needless to say, I am once again frustrated with dbus the garbage and bug generator. Cheers, chillfan publickey - chillfan@protonmail.com - 0xB179B25B.asc Description: application/pgp-keys signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The 1st Devuan conference kicks off tomorrow afternoon!
Watched all of the talks now. All very well done, informative and entertaining and there was plenty to talk about. Pure gold :) Cheers, chillfan publickey - chillfan@protonmail.com - 0xB179B25B.asc Description: application/pgp-keys signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The 1st Devuan conference kicks off tomorrow afternoon!
It was a slight shame about the audio but I was grateful to have the stream available to watch what was going on. Very enjoyable and instructive. I did miss some of the talks yesterday so will look forward to seeing them on the website. Cheers, chillfan ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐ On Monday, April 8, 2019 8:00 AM, Jaromil wrote: > On Sun, 07 Apr 2019, Lars Noodén via Dng wrote: > > > On 4/7/19 4:53 PM, Linux O'Beardly via Dng wrote: > > > > > We've had a number of excellent talks which have been recorded and > > > can be seen at https://www.youtube.com/user/DyneOrg. > > > > Thanks for posting the recordings. The sound isn't always the best but > > I am quite grateful that some people planned to record the event and > > were able to post it so quickly. > > we know about the sound problems and the good news is that they are > due to the streaming bandwidth available. The audio in the recordings > shouldn't have these problems, will be edited and published soon. > > the devuan conference has been a significant production effort at > Dyne, lead by our colleague and production manager Federico Bonelli, > and it was totally worthed. > > for those who can't wait, some talks have been already indexed of the > continuous recording here and they are still visible at stream quality > http://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?pid=15399#p15399 > > the final recordings will be soon published on the devuan.org page > > I agree with O'Beardly this was a very succesful event, it will > certainly boost Devuan's visibility and contributions. Talks are > outstanding and worthed to circulate at large once ready. > > ciao! > > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng publickey - chillfan@protonmail.com - 0xB179B25B.asc Description: application/pgp-keys signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] frustration with browsers.
Indeed there is Icecat that is DRM free. Iceweasel-UXP just covers some more of the criteria of what people would consider less frustrating or is closer to a real fork since they change things at the code level. It would be interesting if there was a version of Icecat based on Iceweasel-UXP. The other one that's similar is Palemoon, but it doesn't have WebRTC. Generally a good thing but sometimes WebRTC is wanted for jitsi. Cheers, chillfan ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐ On Friday, April 5, 2019 3:10 PM, al3xu5 / dotcommon wrote: > Il giorno venerdì 05/04/2019 13:50:03 + > chill...@protonmail.com ha scritto: > > > Might potentially be a solution if anyone did decide to package another > > browser to try to solve the problem, since it comes from the hyperbola > > project. > > Another is the GNU/IceCat browser: > > - IceCat project > https://www.gnu.org/software/gnuzilla/ > > - downloads: > https://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/gnuzilla/ > > - bug-gnuzilla mailing-list archives > https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-gnuzilla/ > > - user documentation > https://libreplanet.org/wiki/Group:IceCat/ > > Regards > > -- > al3xu5 > > Say NO to copyright, patents, trademarks and any industrial design > restrictions. > > > Public GPG/PGP key block > ID: 4096 bit RSA key 69C5977BF94CFE23 > Fingerprint: 59C6 9DC7 CD4B CF2F A190 E3DE 69C5 977B F94C FE23 > > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng publickey - chillfan@protonmail.com - 0xB179B25B.asc Description: application/pgp-keys signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] frustration with browsers.
Might potentially be a solution if anyone did decide to package another browser to try to solve the problem, since it comes from the hyperbola project. They follow a "when it's ready" release cycle afaik which probably means they have patches of their that can be applied, making things a little easier. Cheers, chillfan ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐ On Friday, April 5, 2019 1:13 PM, wrote: > I like the idea of Iceweasel-UXP[1] as a more recent and complete firefox > replacement without DRM, especially if trimmed down a little. > > [1]: https://wiki.hyperbola.info/doku.php?id=en:project:iceweasel-uxp > > Cheers, > > chillfan > publickey - chillfan@protonmail.com - 0xB179B25B.asc Description: application/pgp-keys signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] What you saw on devuan.org yesterday was an April's fools joke
It was just more relevant for this discussion to mention Katolaz and his hard work. There are other core developers who are also working hard. I'm not sure then if the bus-factor does apply, but I'm sure none of the core developers are the type to cross the road without looking ;-) Cheers, chillfan ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐ On Friday, April 5, 2019 2:19 PM, Andrew McGlashan wrote: > Hi, > > On 5/4/19 11:28 pm, info at smallinnovations dot nl wrote: > > > On 05-04-19 11:16, Simon Hobson wrote: > > > > > chillfan wrote: > > > > > > > Katolaz is working very hard to ensure we have releases, but I > > > > didn't realise he was doing all this even. > > > > I didn't either. So another +1 for Katolaz and all the work he's > > > > doing. And everyone else of course, but I think it's a bit unfair > > > > for people to be calling for heads on spikes (or one head on a > > > > spike) over a fairly good joke. > > > > > > I can understand why some people get a bit upset, but really > > > guys, lighten up. If there's no room for a bit of fun now and > > > again then life gets a bit dull - like the corporate world of > > > grey suites and endlist lists of things you aren't allowed to say > > > or do. > > > > I know Katolaz is working very hard and i appreciate it very much. > > But i am working in ICT and in construction and the two areas where > > you do not joke about are security and safety. Since he already > > apologized i will not discuss it further or in Dutch: zand erover. > > There is a different, but also VERY IMPORTANT consideration here. > > What if Katolaz gets hit by a bus? > > Whilst I do appreciate the work he does, it really is a potential > nightmare should he become unavailable for the works he is currently > doing. What about backup wetware and other team members, is enough > known to move forward if we, for whatever reason, are unfortunate > enough to lose him? > > Kind Regards > AnsdrewM publickey - chillfan@protonmail.com - 0xB179B25B.asc Description: application/pgp-keys signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] frustration with browsers.
The problems as I see them are: Browsers either have DRM or they are bloated with features some don't expect to be there and are no modularity at all. Sometimes you can disable a feature but not remove it. The alternatives are often not packaged by Debian, so if they don't have it then we'd need to package it ourselves. Firefox and derivatives are sometimes very large. Things move fast and the alternatives don't provide a long term support cycle afaict. Since they would need to be maintained for a whole release cycle (and LTS) that makes it more awkward to package. I like the idea of Iceweasel-UXP[1] as a more recent and complete firefox replacement without DRM, especially if trimmed down a little. [1]: https://wiki.hyperbola.info/doku.php?id=en:project:iceweasel-uxp Cheers, chillfan ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐ On Friday, April 5, 2019 12:23 PM, Hendrik Boom wrote: > On Fri, Apr 05, 2019 at 08:06:14AM +0000, chillfan--- via Dng wrote: > > > There are many of us frustrated with web browsers and the web in general, > > Is there anything that can be done about this? > > Browsers seem to be an all-or-nothing kind of nonmodularity. > > Yet they should have components that can be used independently. > > I can see > > a hugely complicated display mechanism that takes HTML, pdf, and other > file formats and displays them. (This could easily be several > mechanisms, of course) > > A user-interface system that gives the user some influence in deciding > which files are to be displayed (and implicitly fetches them using a > variety of protocols or refuses to do this on the basis of security > concerns which may conflict with the user's). This is a largely > nonprogrammable interface. > > > > A number of these tools would be quite useful if they could easily be > called independently from any relatively sane and bug-resistant > high-level language (user's choice). > > I'd very much like to be programmatically in charge of the browser. > I'd like to be able to make it do things not in the immediate vision of > the large organisation providing it -- without starting over from > scratch. > > -- hendrik > > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng publickey - chillfan@protonmail.com - 0xB179B25B.asc Description: application/pgp-keys signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] What you saw on devuan.org yesterday was an April's fools joke
Katolaz is working very hard to ensure we have releases, but I didn't realise he was doing all this even. There shouldn't be any sore feelings over this or anything personal. He really had me there for a moment but gopher and browser complaints were good clues something isn't quite right ;) There are many of us frustrated with web browsers and the web in general, and a couple of people are nostalgic over gopher. It's funnier for me because I know this. This seems like a bad reaction to an april fools joke to me, and personally I feel that the systemd camp wants to score some cheap points. Afaik we are all volunteers, which is different than having people who are contracted to maintain and develop Devuan. I think some dedicated maintainers should be put our way before anyone gets uptight about an april fools joke. Cheers, chillfan ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐ On Tuesday, April 2, 2019 3:30 PM, Jaromil wrote: > dear readers, > > as a Devuan caretaker and co-founder, in my own personal capacity, let > me state that: > > 1. There was no break-in on any part of Devuan's infrastructure on 1st > April. This was the most skillfull prank I've witnessed in my life. > > 2. Devuan comes WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY. Bluntly put, if you want to hold > someone liable, you need a contract. There are many professionals > here and in the world who can offer you support. Blaming any Devuan > developer for problems caused by his/her actions, be it a joke or a > mistake, is nonsense. Do read the license, if you need to hold > anyone liable for your own needs then make sure you have a contract > with somoene. It is entirely up to you to trust us or not > > 3. At Dyne.org - a public ICT research institution working with the > European Commission and some major municipalities - we use Devuan > in production. Clearly we need the reliability: so we work for > it. We are not only developing Devuan, but also we have an in-house > continuous-integration infrastructure to build packages and new > images for Devuan's many targets. I encourage everyone reading to > consider contributing to Devuan and at the same time plan your own > way of making a community project reliable for your own > professional use. > > 4. Katolaz is not just one of the caretakers of Devuan, but is by far > the developer making the most significant contributions to this > project. If it wasn't for him, we would be stuck at Jessie, > IMHO. For our community project, he has done: > - about 75 Devuan packages > - all the Devuan installers since Jessie RC > - all the minimal-live images since Jessie Beta2 > - development on the Devuan SDK > - work on the sysvinit package in Debian > - maintainance of all our critical infrastructure, including > all the building hosts, jenkins, dak, amprolla, pkgmaster, > mirrors, BTS, file server, all the ganeti nodes, DNS, web, > and what not. > > I wish there would be no need for a personalising argument in this > email, however given the attack Katolaz received I think of it as > necessary. I've been through something like this myself on this > very list, leading also to vandalization of wikipedia pages about > my work. Is not funny at all and some solidarity helps a lot. > > This mail is signed with the same 8192B RSA GPG key who signs all > packages distributed by Devuan. I'm not sure if we can go deeper in > trust... my former key signs this one too and was in turn signed by > GPG's author. Perhaps now I'll ask Werner to reach us in Amsterdam and > cuddle on the couch a bit ;^) > > ciao > > -- > Denis "Jaromil" Roio https://Dyne.org think &do tank > Ph.D, CTO & co-founder software to empower communities > ✉ Haparandadam 7-A1, 1013AK Amsterdam, The Netherlands > ✩ Profile and publications: https://jaromil.dyne.org > 𝄞 crypto κρυπτο крипто गुप्त् 加密 האנוסים المشفره > ⚷ 6113D89C A825C5CE DD02C872 73B35DA5 4ACB7D10 > > > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng publickey - chillfan@protonmail.com - 0xB179B25B.asc Description: application/pgp-keys signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] new freedesktop "standard": /etc/machine-id
For me the short answer is that I very much dislike this and would prefer not to have it. There was an open issue in my git repo about performance issues relating to 'machine id' and pulse when dbus is not available. The person reporting it provided a hackish work around and I later asked them to file this as a bug with debian. Not sure if Debian got a bug report, and it was a while ago so I'm not sure if it can be reproduced now. I think it's generally better if we can do without it so that things work as expected when users decide not to use dbus, pulse, etc. That's my two cents on that anyway. Cheers, chillfan ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐ On Friday, March 8, 2019 12:47 PM, Jaromil wrote: > re all, > > any thoughts about this new systemd-made thing that freedesktop > immediately "standardized" (whatever is their procedure for that, > likely smoking cigars among old-boys or so) > https://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/machine-id.html > > its easy to replace by a script of course that's not the problem (the > manpage suggests to use a systemd application for that, not a joke!) > but I'm curious if anyone has some background and thoughts about this > > AFAIK chromium started checking it and its absence on Devuan Beowulf > is reported as an error, so we may have to work around this. > > but first things first: do we want /etc/machine-id? and how? > > ciao > > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng publickey - chillfan@protonmail.com - 0xB179B25B.asc Description: application/pgp-keys signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Migrate to Beowulf
Upgrading from ascii to beowulf was very straight forward for me. sed -i 's/ascii/beowulf/' /etc/apt/sources.list then apt-get update && apt-get dist-upgrade If it's not straight forward, please inbox me. I don't have much time to do anything just now but I'll eventually document the upgrade process and any quirks with it. Cheers, chillfan ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐ On Thursday, February 28, 2019 2:49 PM, Antonio Trkdz.tab via Dng wrote: > HI All, > > I am actually looking to migrate from Ascii to Beowulf. > What is the best course of action? > > Is the information here: > http://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=2301 > still relevant? > > I use mate desktop and nvidia drivers and I have packages from backports as > well as other repos external to devuan that I can easily disable. > > Thanks! > > Antonio publickey - chillfan@protonmail.com - 0xB179B25B.asc Description: application/pgp-keys signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] iptables forced obsolescence over upgrade
No, I do not need nft if I only intend to use iptables. This is just additional complexity. They think I need it sure, since they want to immediately start the transition to nft. But I can just see this breaking things for people who like me built their own kernel for specific needs, such as servers where a lot of people will do just for performance or security reasons and will not include any nft support. Actually, if they insist on transitioning to nft then at least they should warn during upgrade that the 'legacy' (as it's for some reason called) iptables has moved path. Cheers, chillfan ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐ On Saturday, February 16, 2019 6:35 PM, Alessandro Selli wrote: > On 16/02/19 at 11:26, chillfan--- via Dng wrote: > > > And of course I don't need nft > > Yes, you do. > > For some reason you don't want it, but that's a different matter. > > > > > Alessandro Selli alessandrose...@linux.com > VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net > Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: > BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE publickey - chillfan@protonmail.com - 0xB179B25B.asc Description: application/pgp-keys signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] iptables forced obsolescence over upgrade
Imo this is nowhere near a pleasant way to do things for users. It would have been much better to just provide a separate iptables nft package by default during the install, as they really haven't given iptables the axe yet. publickey - chillfan@protonmail.com - 0xB179B25B.asc Description: application/pgp-keys signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] iptables forced obsolescence over upgrade
So it turns out if you have the proper nft support (nft + compat module probably) in your kernel then iptables will continue to work. The ifup failure looks like this: iptables-restore/1.8.2 Failed to initialize nft: Protocol not supported run-parts: /etc/network/if-pre-up.d/iptables exited with return code 1 ifup: failed to bring up eth0 So the script in if-pre-up.d is not working because it returns 1 instead of 0. Maybe this behaviour is the best since otherwise someone would be left without a firewall or other feature and not know about it. Better to just change scripts to point to /usr/sbin/iptables-legacy-restore for now. Cheers, chillfan ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐ On Saturday, February 16, 2019 10:26 AM, wrote: > Yeah, although the nft wiki seems to suggest it will replace iptables they > seem to be coexisting at the moment. > > The problem with iptables is it expects you to have nft support. A quick find > command shows some changes in the provided binaries. > > /sbin/iptables-save > /sbin/iptables > /sbin/iptables-restore > /usr/sbin/iptables-save > /usr/sbin/iptables-nft-save > /usr/sbin/iptables-legacy-restore > /usr/sbin/iptables > /usr/sbin/iptables-legacy > /usr/sbin/iptables-nft-restore > /usr/sbin/iptables-restore > /usr/sbin/iptables-legacy-save > /usr/sbin/iptables-apply > /usr/sbin/iptables-nft > > Running /sbin/iptables gives: > > iptables/1.8.2 Failed to initialize nft: Protocol not supported > > And of course I don't need nft so it's not built into my kernel. For the sake > of testing I will check what happens when you do have nft support as I'm sure > the stock kernel has. > > The usual setup for restoring iptables is to place the script in > /etc/network/if-pre-up.d/iptables and restore the rules from a config file > somewhere in /etc. Maybe the quirk here is ifupdown expects if-pre-up.d > scripts to run succesfully before bringing up the interface. > > Cheers, > > chillfan > > ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐ > On Saturday, February 16, 2019 8:38 AM, KatolaZ kato...@freaknet.org wrote: > > > chillfan, I have several beowulf machines and all use iptables, and > > none of them has had that issue. Maybe I have not apt-get updated > > recently. Could it just be a quirk of if-up? Shall we try to track > > the issue down? > > On another note: before a useless ranftul flame gets started, please > > note that as chillfan said iptables is not going away from the Linux > > kernel. > > My2Cents > > KatolaZ > > > > [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ] > > [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] > > [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] > > [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] > > [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] publickey - chillfan@protonmail.com - 0xB179B25B.asc Description: application/pgp-keys signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] iptables forced obsolescence over upgrade
Yeah, although the nft wiki seems to suggest it will replace iptables they seem to be coexisting at the moment. The problem with iptables is it expects you to have nft support. A quick find command shows some changes in the provided binaries. /sbin/iptables-save /sbin/iptables /sbin/iptables-restore /usr/sbin/iptables-save /usr/sbin/iptables-nft-save /usr/sbin/iptables-legacy-restore /usr/sbin/iptables /usr/sbin/iptables-legacy /usr/sbin/iptables-nft-restore /usr/sbin/iptables-restore /usr/sbin/iptables-legacy-save /usr/sbin/iptables-apply /usr/sbin/iptables-nft Running /sbin/iptables gives: iptables/1.8.2 Failed to initialize nft: Protocol not supported And of course I don't need nft so it's not built into my kernel. For the sake of testing I will check what happens when you do have nft support as I'm sure the stock kernel has. The usual setup for restoring iptables is to place the script in /etc/network/if-pre-up.d/iptables and restore the rules from a config file somewhere in /etc. Maybe the quirk here is ifupdown expects if-pre-up.d scripts to run succesfully before bringing up the interface. Cheers, chillfan ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐ On Saturday, February 16, 2019 8:38 AM, KatolaZ wrote: > chillfan, I have several beowulf machines and all use iptables, and > none of them has had that issue. Maybe I have not apt-get updated > recently. Could it just be a quirk of if-up? Shall we try to track > the issue down? > > On another note: before a useless ranftul flame gets started, please > note that as chillfan said iptables is not going away from the Linux > kernel. > > My2Cents > > KatolaZ > > - > > [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ] > [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] > [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] > [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] > [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] publickey - chillfan@protonmail.com - 0xB179B25B.asc Description: application/pgp-keys signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] iptables forced obsolescence over upgrade
Of the most stupid thing to happen over an upgrade.. Debian have forcibly broken a security feature. Which is to say, don't expect your firewall to still be functioning when you upgrade to Buster. And expect it to cause network failure. Short story, I upgraded an ascii system to Beowulf since Buster is now entering soft freeze if Debian have kept to their timetable. But surprise of all surprises, my network isn't working. Why? Because I restore my _iptables_ rules when bringing up interfaces. Apparently you must now use nftables and this was causing the ifupdown scripts to fail failure because the if-up script returns a failure. As far as I can see iptables is now called 'iptables-legacy' and 'iptables' actually uses nft. But btw, iptables is not deprecated in the kernel at all. nft is very counter intuitive and nowhere near as simple as iptables, actually I'd need a day off and then some to learn it. Before someone thinks it it yes I know about the conversion tool but that's useless when you know something sucks and you just don't want it to begin with. Cheers, chillfan publickey - chillfan@protonmail.com - 0xB179B25B.asc Description: application/pgp-keys signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Debian dev takes a break from packaging systemd
My favourite comment has to be: https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/11436#issuecomment-454546312 "You seem to suggest that we should never change any user visible detail. I think this user rule was in error, and it worked for a while by luck, and now it doesn't. This happens all the time." A configuration worked by luck or was it a bug? Perhaps consulting your daily horoscope will let you know if your user configurations will work. Apparently that also happens _all_ the time. I wonder if they mean all other software in debian or just systemd. Cheers, chillfan ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐ On Monday, January 21, 2019 11:42 PM, Alessandro Selli wrote: > On 22/01/19 at 00:08, wirelessduck--- via Dng wrote: > > > https://soylentnews.org/article.pl?sid=19/01/21/042251 > > > > “Michael Biebl, long-time maintainer of systemd for Debian (2010 or > > earlier, based on changelog.Debian.gz), is taking undetermined holidays > > from packaging it.” > > > > “Will stop maintaining systemd in debian for a while. > > > > What's going on is just too stupid/crazy.” > > This takes place after he discussed a bug in which he expected systemd to > respect local settings, and not rename network devices: > > > > > @yuwata a default policy like /lib/systemd/network/99-default.link > > > > should never trump explicit user configuration. > > Later he seems surprised about how things roll there: > > > > > I'm amazed that I have to point this out > > Yes, it's amazing. > > Even more amazing is that such a software was almost universally adopted as > a key piece of the OS. > > -- > Alessandro Selli > VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net > Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: > BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE publickey - chillfan@protonmail.com - 0xB179B25B.asc Description: application/pgp-keys signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Fwd: Re: What should an Install Guide accomplish?
I can only agree with that. My reservations about doing this are mostly been because of our target audience, and not wanting to exclude the more savvy users. But there's nothing wrong with doing this in a side project that wouldn't go on the main website. Cheers, chillfan ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐ On Wednesday, January 2, 2019 2:11 AM, wrote: > > Feel free to open a project in our gitlab for us to review. > publickey - chillfan@protonmail.com - 0xB179B25B.asc Description: application/pgp-keys signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] What should an Install Guide accomplish?
Historically the community has always responded to things that are minimal and simple, and not so much to things that are bloated or windowsy, or similar. Imho, a reason why a new user might look to Devuan could be because it's less like windows than some of the others, and the community supports the goal of simpler living with your OS. Actually, I think these problems should be solved just not directly in Devuan. If there comes a time when someone creates a spin specifically for new users, that would solve all those problems. Cheers, chillfan ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐ On Tuesday, January 1, 2019 11:34 PM, Michael wrote: > Hi golinux and everyone else, > > Okay, I’m breaking this topic off from the ‘Added desktop-live to the install > guides’ as it seems we have a much higher, philosophical level decision to > make before we can continue with editing the Devuan Install Guide. Which is: > > == What should an Install Guide accomplish? > > # > > == > > My take is that an Install Guide is a complete set of instructions that a > person can follow to fully accomplish the task. There are no ambiguities > presented to the user, as it is literally do step a), do step b), do step > c) ... > > Each step should be fully explained and if there is more than one primary > method of doing any of the steps, then each method is explained. In this > case my take is that both Nix and Windows instructions should be available. > > # Minor points > > === > > = I am fully against against repeating any information on a website. As doing > so almost always leads to discrepancies between the difference sources. If > the Devuan site is using a CMS of some sort, then a single source should be > able to be created and block inclusions can be then placed anywhere else on > the site as needed. [1] > > = I do think that anything a user needs to know to make an intelligent > decision should be either on the page or directly linked to. If linked to, > then clicking the link should not close or overwrite the Install Guide page. > > = For an Install Guide I’m against ‘Minimalism.’ My feeling is that not > giving total, and literally an over abundance of information, not only > directly inhibits and stops people from doing the Install, but also creates > vast negative word of mouth from those who attempt the Install but can’t > complete it because they aren’t given enough information to physically be > able to follow it. > > = If golinux agrees to ‘an over abundance of information approach,’ I have no > issue re-writing the whole guide. (As you may have noticed I’m a bit gabby.) > I will need someone with a Windows box to QC those instructions. > > # > > == > > Okay, that’s my fairly opinionated opinion. I think ultimately this is > golinux’s decision, but please everyone else jump in with yea’s, nay’s, and > what you think the answer to the question is ;) Also, please don’t feel shy > about bringing up what you think the ramifications might be for the different > options/opinions/methods. I bring this last point up, as I have a gut feel > that if we come to agreement on the ramifications, then we’ll have > our ‘decision’ per say made for us. > > Best Regards All and Happy New Year!, > Michael > > PS: golinux, my full apologies if I’ve stepped on your toes :( and/or > exceeded what you’re willing to take under discussion. > > [1] I host and manage Drupal (CMS) websites, this generally takes 10 minutes > to setup. I can discuss this offline with whoever as desired. > > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng publickey - chillfan@protonmail.com - 0xB179B25B.asc Description: application/pgp-keys signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Added desktop-live to the install guides
I was thinking about wether this would be useful too. If I remember I didn't do this with the original guide because unetbootin has more than one way of doing things, which may just confuse users. But if they did include Devuan as a target that might solve the issue, depending what people think on using unetbootin. Cheers, chillfan ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐ On Tuesday, January 1, 2019 9:25 PM, info at smallinnovations dot nl wrote: > On 01-01-19 22:04, chillfan--- via Dng wrote: > > > Validating the images is optional but I think it's useful to tell people > > how this is done for those that want it. That part could easily be > > rewritten to be optional and a recommendation only. That's my suggestion > > for this anyway. So something like: > > Installation images distributed by Devuan are signed so that they can be > > verified as coming from Devuan. As an optional step you can verify images > > to let you know they have not been altered prior to you receiving them. > > My preference would be for us not to repeat ourselves on the website in > > favour of simplicity, and instead just link to what we need in the intro. > > About dd, I think that should be mentioned because otherwise users will > > look elsewhere and when it doesn't work they'll think our images are broken > > (this issue has come up before). So for users convenience and to be sure > > they are using dd correctly, we should provide those instructions. > > Whilst we will have more information and documentation for new users, I > > don't think we should write Windows guides. I think that would lead us more > > in the direction of ubuntu and others who adopted systemd. > > Cheers, > > chillfan > > ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐ > > On Tuesday, January 1, 2019 7:51 PM, goli...@dyne.org wrote: > > We do not have to write specific Windows guides to mention Unetbootin > which will work for Linux, Windows and Mac. > > Of course we will have to tell the authors of Unetbootin to add Devuan > to the pre-selected distros to make it complete. > > Grtz. > > Nick publickey - chillfan@protonmail.com - 0xB179B25B.asc Description: application/pgp-keys signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Added desktop-live to the install guides
Validating the images is optional but I think it's useful to tell people how
this is done for those that want it. That part could easily be rewritten to be
optional and a recommendation only. That's my suggestion for this anyway. So
something like:
Installation images distributed by Devuan are signed so that they can be
verified as coming from Devuan. As an optional step you can verify images to
let you know they have not been altered prior to you receiving them.
My preference would be for us not to repeat ourselves on the website in favour
of simplicity, and instead just link to what we need in the intro.
About dd, I think that should be mentioned because otherwise users will look
elsewhere and when it doesn't work they'll think our images are broken (this
issue has come up before). So for users convenience and to be sure they are
using dd correctly, we should provide those instructions.
Whilst we will have more information and documentation for new users, I don't
think we should write Windows guides. I think that would lead us more in the
direction of ubuntu and others who adopted systemd.
Cheers,
chillfan
‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Tuesday, January 1, 2019 7:51 PM, wrote:
> Hi Michael,
>
> Thanks for your thoughtful and detailed comments. Response inline
> below.
>
> On 2019-01-01 09:46, Michael wrote:
>
> > On Tuesday 01 January 2019 03:46:52 am goli...@dyne.org wrote:
> >
> > > tweaking the install guides and adding one for the desktop-live gui
> > > install. You can start here:
> > > https://beta.devuan.org/os/documentation/install-guides/start-here.html
> >
> > Hi golinux,
> > These thoughts are from the angle of helping someone who’s never done
> > an
> > install of any OS before. My guess is most people haven’t, as when
> > buying a
> > new computer the OS is almost always already installed now days.
> > I’ve added stubs where I can, but do edit for better user clarity!
> >
> > #
> >
> > ==
> >
> > # Sections to Add:
> >
> > ===
> >
> > = Which Release version is right for me?
> > Explain when/why they should choose ASCII or Jessie.
> > = {Explanation of the .iso naming scheme}
> > devuan_ascii_2.0.0_amd64_netinst.iso
> > ^^^ Who we are!
> > ^^^ The Release name
> > ^^^ The architecture
> > ^^^ The Installation image
> > Needs fixed width to line up properly...
> > = {Pathing walk through of how to find the right .iso}
>
> This useful information is beyond the scope of these INSTALL guides. But
> there are already pages on the website that cover much of it. Does it
> really need to be repeated?
> https://devuan.org/os/releases
> https://devuan.org/os/filenaming
>
> > # Section: Supported architectures
> >
> > ===
> >
> > Define what both of these mean.
> > amd64: 64-bit CPUs, used for both Intel and AMD consumer level CPUs.
> > I386: 32-bit CPUs, ???
>
> Again not really appropriate for the INSTALL guides. Hardware is s
> not my thing. If someone wants to do a write up, we can find a place for
> it somewhere on the website.
>
> > # Section: Installation images
> >
> > ===
> >
> > Rename to “What Installation image should I chose?”
>
> There has to be a more concise way of saying that. ;) Minimalism rules
> here. ;)
>
> > Add Subsection: One install with access to the Internet?
> > Use the `*_netinst.iso` which will install a base system then download
> > the
> > remaining packages during the installation process.
> > Add Subsection: Multiple installs or no access to the Internet during
> > install?
> > Choose the single `*_dvd-1.iso`. The image contains several desktop
> > choices
> > and additional software options. ...
>
> That information is already on the index and get-devuan pages of the
> website as well as one of the links posted above. Those who will not
> seek will not find.
>
> > # Section: Check the integrity of images
> >
> > =
> >
> > Add how to for Windows. You can probably swipe Fedora’s? But someone
> > would
> > need to check both copyright concerns and that the instructions work.
> > https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/Fedora/18/html/Burning_ISO_images_to_disc/sect-Burning_ISO_images_to_disc-Validating_the_Files-Validating_at_the_Windows_Command_Prompt.html
>
> Could you possibly provide that information for inclusion?
>
> > # Check the integrity of images Vs. Verify the images
> >
> > ==
> >
> > This isn’t my field, but??? If they’ve done a sha256sum, is there any
> > value
> > in checking a keychain? Or are these just two alternatives of the same
> > thing
> > and these two sections need to be sub-sections of the same section?
>
> I think they are alternative ways of verifying. I always do a sha256sum.
> Can someone please clarify?
>
> > # Section: Writing an image to a CD/DVD or USB drive
> >
> > =
Re: [DNG] Admins can you fix/set the header overrides?
I can confirm that I haven't set a reply-to header, but this is just a web mail. It could be that my webmail provider just doesn't allow me to unset the header, but I haven't looked that far into it. Cheers, chillfan ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐ On Wednesday, December 26, 2018 4:07 PM, Michael wrote: > On Wednesday 26 December 2018 03:24:24 am Antony Stone wrote: > > > Argh. Sending to the list this time. > > Please don't set "Reply-to" on list emails. > > Antony. > > I’m pretty sure the individuals aren’t doing it explicitly. This list just > doesn’t seem to create, or override really, the headers quite right. Some > messages here I hit reply (like this one) and the proper “To: > dng@lists.dyne.org” shows up, on others someone’s name is populated in the > To: box. Other lists, you hit reply and To: is always populated correctly. > > golinux?, other admins?, is there a config option somewhere in the backend > to ‘fix’ this? > > Best, > Michael > > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng publickey - chillfan@protonmail.com - 0xB179B25B.asc Description: application/pgp-keys signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Website changes
The contents on github are now slightly behind what we prepared for the website as the links point to the jessie torrent (I will fix that in the next push soon). Translations should be in good order aside from that. Cheers, chillfan ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐ On Monday, December 24, 2018 6:35 PM, wrote: > On 2018-12-24 11:53, Gastón via Dng wrote: > > > On Sun, Dec 23, 2018 at 01:04:54PM -0600, goli...@dyne.org wrote: > > > > > Greetings! > > > Some changes are being made to the Devuan website as a result of > > > recent > > > discussions on this list and the dev1galaxy forum. > > > > > > 1. One user commented that they had no idea which iso to choose. So > > > descriptions of the Devuan isos have been added to: > > > > > > > > > https://devuan.org/ (mid-page) > > > https://devuan.org/get-devuan (top of the page) > > > > Good job! :-) > > Thanks. > > > > 2. Others found the installation process challenging so thanks to > > > chillfan > > > "Visual guides" with screenshots for both a classic install and a > > > graphical > > > install can be found below the mirror list on the "get-devuan" page. > > > Instructions for disk encryption are linked to and back to the the > > > appropriate place in the tutorials: > > > > > > > > > https://devuan.org/os/documentation/install-guides/install-devuan.html > > > https://devuan.org/os/documentation/install-guides/full-disk-encryption.html > > > https://devuan.org/os/documentation/install-guides/graphic-install.html > > > https://devuan.org/os/documentation/install-guides/graphic-disk-encryption.html > > > > The versions of these pages using the translations, are or will be > > available as well? > > There are some translations on chillfan/dev1fanboy's wiki pages at: > https://git.devuan.org/dev1fanboy/Upgrade-Install-Devuan > but I'm not sure how current they are. Perhaps he can clarify. If they > are, we can certainly add links to them. Additional translations are > always most welcome. Thanks for the suggestion. > > golinux > > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng publickey - chillfan@protonmail.com - 0xB179B25B.asc Description: application/pgp-keys signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] ifstat.eth0 on Boot
How new is the laptop? What is the model of network card? Without knowing anything about your hardware or configuration I would first check no other device like wireless is trying to connect. If it's not and the router/dhcp is definitely not doing something stupid: Then probably you should check your bios for helpful settings, and then try installing firmware in /lib/firmware for your device, like linux-firmware-free or linux-firmware-nonfree from the repo. Or use a backported kernel. Cheers, chillfan ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐ On Friday, December 7, 2018 11:45 AM, Michael K. wrote: > ¡Ola! > > After a Dev1 Setup on a Laptop (whit eth0), i have to wait a long time > for the eth0 on "cold boot". > > I "cold boot" my Laptop > I look to the "Boot Messages" > I see the following Msg: > > Configuring Network Interfaces ifup: Waiting for Lock on > /run/network/ifstat.eth0 > > After 2 or 3 minutes to wait, the Laptop boot up, > > In the folder /run/network/ i have - after the "long to wait boot": > > ifstat (content: eth0=eth0 and lo=lo > ifstat.eth0 (content: eth0 ) > ifstat.lo (content: lo ) > ifstat.lock (content: empty ) > > The Packet: ifstat (1.1-8.1) current not installed! > > What must i do to speed up my Dev1 Boot ?! > > Thanks > Michael > > - > > GnuPG Fingerprint: CF03 FC32 381F 7D6C 1734 8641 E4D8 5081 5E05 B5AE > https://www.justice4assange.com/ publickey - chillfan@protonmail.com - 0xB179B25B.asc Description: application/pgp-keys signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
