Re: [Dng] Systemd discussions at LinuxQuestions.
On Thu, May 14, 2015 at 03:25:46AM -0400, Jude Nelson wrote: I'm really sorry for having sent the same message four times. However, it's my (urgh, "kind") provider who kept me from both receiving the messages of that thread and kept the old cached: ( with the same topic as the subject of this email ) https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20150510.211708.6d1d46ab.en.html for almost five hours, so I couldn't know it was received. unless there were issues with lurker (were there any issues with it?). The whole story is on: https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-999436.html#7746644 and https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-999436.html#7747902 Sorry for the digression. And, I'll try and post about dbus to Devuan ML, as I say I would in my topic: Grsecurity/Pax installation on Debian GNU/Linux http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=108616&start=60#p577538 where find strings `Devuan' and esp. `no-dbus Devuan'. > Hi James, > > On Wed, May 13, 2015 at 11:58 PM, James Powell > wrote: > > > I agree T. J. > > > > The problem is too much "thinking" about problems, rather than offering a > > clear solution other than scrapping the fore and replacing it entirely > > seems to be the source of the problem. > > > > One argument I stand by adamantly is that while sysvinit was imperfect in > > design, it left room to allow the tree to branch in various ways with the > > applied tools. OpenRC is a prime example of taking sysvinit and expanding > > upon it in a way that allows for diversity just like daemontools, bsd-style > > scripting, and other service supervisors do brilliantly. Sysvinit doesn't > > have to be the workhorse, but it can be the harness providing the standard > > functions of startup and shutdown for the workhorse of your choosing. > > > > However few people are willing to step outside their boxes and look for > > ways to improve systems without resulting to rampant progressivism with new > > software than isn't even finished in it's goals. > > > > In the late 90s Dan Bernstein's daemontools could have ended the > > overreliance on sysvinit, but few embraced it. > > > > Now we see the rush to "do" when something comes along to create a rift. > > No ill will to anyone, but if anyone had have "done" years ago, there might > > be less a need to "do" now. > > > > It's not clear to me how much really needed doing in the first place. The > people who actually needed djb's daemontools went ahead and used them. The > people who actually needed to contain processes in cgroups did so, and they > did so with vserver and openvz before cgroups existed. The people who > actually wanted service socket activation used xinted. The people who > actually needed to start services in parallel either hacked their init > scripts to do so, or wrote Makefiles that started/stopped groups of > services in parallel while enforcing inter-service dependencies as > dependencies between targets. > > I think the sudden rush to Fix-All-The-Things we're seeing (the "rampant > progressivism" as you call it) is part of human nature. I have this pet > theory that people tend to progress through three stages of understanding > when applying themselves to a new field: > (1) they know little or nothing about it, and they know it. > (2) they learn more than they thought there was to know about it, and > (wrongly) believe that they know mostly everything about it. > (3) they reach the field's state-of-the-art and see the boundary between > what is known and unknown, and acquire the humility that comes from > understanding that no matter how much they think they know, there's a lot > more that they don't. > > At any given point, there are way more people in stage #1 than stage #2, > and way more people in stage #2 than in stage #3. > > The people who are comfortable using the tools I mentioned above tend to be > at stage #3 in the field of building and using UNIX-like operating > systems. This is because in addition to knowing what tools are available, > they know the trade-offs between them and how to select them to find the > best solution to a particular problem. They also know when and when not to > create new tools, and they know how to define their scope. There's no > desire on their end to sacrifice flexibility for convenience--they've dealt > with enough problems to appreciate that having lots of small > interchangeable and composable tools is critical to being able to tackle a > wide variety of them. > > Unfortunately, this doesn't do people in stages #1 and #2 any favors. The > value proposition of systemd is that it automates a common set of stage #3 > problem-solving strategies that a stage #1 or #2 user is likely to > encounter, but without requiring the user to have a stage #3 level of > understanding. I think it's the stage #2 people who appreciate this that > become the loud-mouthed zealots we're all so fond of. They're the ones who > want to Fix-All-The-Things--they know that there are some hard sta
Re: [Dng] A novice attempt to speed up Devuan development
On Thu, May 14, 2015 at 10:53:20AM -0500, T.J. Duchene wrote: > > > > I think that has already happened for quite some time. The latest udev > > package outside systemd source in Debian is 175-7.2 according to > > https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/udev. In Debian jessie it is provided by > > systemd package as shown on https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/systemd. I am > > still on Debian wheezy with *systemd* pinned to Pin-Priority: -1. When I > > tried to switched to jessie repository and do dist-upgrade, udev package is > > not being pulled. > > > [T.J. ] I can understand your reticence, certainly. All I'm advocating is a > "common sense" engineering approach. I think it is advantageous that udev be > included as an option for those who prefer to make certain that no unforeseen > incompatibilities creep in. Use udev, eudev, vdev or none of the above, the Right! It is assuring to me to see that approach. I can't tell how little if any problems I have in Gentoo with eudev, which is there but you never notice it, and I'll really opt for eudev, if the mistakes that Debian made... see below, pls... > end user should be the one to make that decision, although Devuan could > certainly chose a preference for default. > > There is no technical reason to exclude udev.Whatever discussions are in > progress, the fact it can be built from the same source package as systemd is > entirely immaterial from an engineering standpoint. Besides, if Devuan > forces users to use only their preferences, Devuan risks future > fragmentation. Debian already made that mistake. If that mistake is not made in Devuan. Are there others of you devs (I'm just somewhat advanced user, but I watch anxiously to see Devuan really taking off and learning to fly, and I already recommended you in quite a few places in my not little visited forum topics on Gentoo Forums and elsewhere.)... Are there others of you devs and users-to-be (like, hopefully, me), who understand the distinction btwn poetterware and true FOSS programs (to make the distincion simplified)? I mean, if I wouldn't be able to rid my Devuan of any poetterware (and lots of systemd known and lesser known friends and associate programs go into that category), then I would have to search for other ways to live without it. The best way to see what peotterware is, apart from the distant but very strong and very needed associate dbus, is, say, go to: https://eurynome.mirbsd.org/debs/debidx.htm and see which one one of the FOSS wizards like some of you founders and developers of Devuan are too, Thorsten mirabilos Glaser, chose to remove from Debian. And which I was able to do in Debian: How to Remove Systemd and Related Packages from Your Debian http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=118197 That really need to be achievable in Devuan too! Thanks for all of your efforts, I really hope Devuan takes off and shines, the new sun, as my friend from Debian Forums, edbarx, usually says. # A private digression follows. Readers, freely skip this, but anyhow remember # the line above on what must be achievable in Devuan too! Greetings also to golinux. golinux, I received your message many weeks ago now, but I don't know if you received my reply back then, If I don't get to know that and see you still around, I'll create a page at: http://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr/foss/cenz and post my reply to it. No other way. What? sending many times again? Sorry! Sorry for this digression. -- Miroslav Rovis Zagreb, Croatia http://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr pgphVob00eJjj.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Will there be a MirDevuan "WTF"?
Hi, Devuaners! I wrote to this list before, a couple of times. As miro.ro...@croatiafidelis.hr and miroslav.rov...@zg.ht.hr. I'll start from here: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd? http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=116770&start=45#p552566 ( the encrypted channel not set up by user in every box with dbus; and give me someone the reason that I ask there: "a completely truthful explanation[...], publically, on why is this needed" ) which is, in that long, and well read, counter-systemd article of mine in the form of a forum topic, a section about dbus. I don't want dbus, and lots of other things, in my system. Lots of things like someone much cleverer than me, in terms of computing, a Debian developer, and the leader of MirBSD, advocates (and to whom a Cc: goes), like he advocates against, in most practical terms, on the: MirDebian "WTF" Repository https://www.mirbsd.org/~tg/Debs/debidx.htm I count dbus in poetterware-related, as it is a ware for the non-FOSS to dig its tentacles deep into your systems, such as in the hooks prepared for them by, among others, Linus himself. [my title to it:] rootkit hooks in the kernel http://www.crmbuyer.com/story/39565.html and also see this non-exhaustive, practical list of widely used spy-tools, a list practically compiled by true security experts, published so users can learn to defend themselves): Grsecurity/Appendix/Capability Names and Descriptions https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Grsecurity/Appendix/Capability_Names_and_Descriptions Having a system without systemd like Devuan already is, is great, but is not a complete solution for developing a free unsurveilled system if you keep dbus in it. Not in my book! And not in many others' book. My insisting on no-dbus has been looked favorably by wizards in Gentoo: Uninstalling dbus adn *kits (to Unfacilitate Remote Seats) http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-992146.html . I have, as far as a user lacking in really advanced expertize can do, an almost perfectly sustainable system that is not easily intruded in, that does not get owned any more, and pranks on my Gentoo system are pretty much reduced to the outside only. And the same is attainable for any Gentoo user, because Gentoo wizards care to make Gentoo packages available for dbus-free systems like mine. As far as my user understanding goes, it's devs who are making it happen. Back to MirDebianWTF repo. I was, applying mirabilos' work on my sysvinit- and non-systemd Debian, [I was] able to get a poetterware-free Debian back then: Remove Systemd and Related Packages from Your Debian http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=118197 (see the dates there) Now... If I was able to understand correctly, vdev works with dbus. Jude C. Nelson, why are you basing it on such a corporate-intrusion-enabling software (or harvesting/other-nefarious-purposes enabling software)? I remember having read from you back quite a few months ago various articles when I was outraged at systemd imposition and was researching about it. I wouldn't have expected you to not realize that dbus was a false-foss program... false for the true sense of the nature of FOSS. But, maybe there's nothing to do now, I don't know. I know I won't be using anything that requires dbus... There was some talk of eudev on devuan mailing list, and people began to implement it. Where is that now? A digression. I follow mostly only Devuan mailing list, as best I can. I'm not privy to all that is happening in Devuan... Shouldn't there anyway be a central place from where to know without searching what and in which section has been done and at what stage this or that is... Like a page to start when you want to know the status and the news, a page always sensibly up to date... [A digression. I follow mostly only Devuan mailing list, as best I can], and if I missed something, be kind to correct me. So eudev not planned? Just to point you at something that sparks my enthusiasm, as a keen supporter. and fills me with some angst at the same time. What it those f**ing tool(s) (as Christopher Barry, http://lkml.org/lkml/2014/8/12/459 , who I see also follows, if not contributes, to Devuan, as he called Poettering)... [What if those tools] achieve, for their masters, their nefarious purposes sooner then true FOSS devs can raise defences against such threats? plans when udev becomes systemd-only ? (after kdbus merge) https://github.com/gentoo/eudev/issues/95#issuecomment-122873308 And eudev works dbus-free just fine (such as in my Gentoo), dear people! So, maybe to cut the talking shorter: Is no-poetterware, no-dbus Devuan soon to be an attainable option for a user like me, of medium advanced level (my maximum attainable level probably a good tester)? And then in no-dbus no-poetterware Devuan I apply grsec, and teach newbies to install grsec-hardened kernels in their Devuans, like I did in Debian Forums: Grsecurity/Pax installation on Debian GNU/Linux http://forums.debian.net/vie
Re: [DNG] Will there be a MirDevuan "WTF"?
On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 11:50:44AM -0400, Jude Nelson wrote: > > > > > > If I was able to understand correctly, vdev works with dbus. > > > Vdev does not use dbus. No idea how or why you came to this conclusion. > Search the code if you don't believe me. > > -Jude I believe you. You never appeared dishonest to me. And I'm very glad that I was wrong! Whence I derived that wrong understanding? From having misundestood something with the little time that I dedicated to reading about vdev from the list or elsewhere. Sorry! But Im very glad that I was wrong in that conjecture! Because that means my dream may be feasible when vdev is ready for deployment! Regarding Thorsten Glaser , I got it from reading discussions on debian-devel list, e.g.: https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2014/07/msg00015.html How to avoid stealth installation of systemd? http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=116770&start=30#p552484 I got a "550 Unrouteable address" for it, as visibale in the attachment (mirabilos-unroutable.eml). So don't know. Really my dream a true foss Devuan. Cheers! -- Miroslav Rovis Zagreb, Croatia http://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr From @ Wed Jul 22 17:08:19 2015 Return-Path: <> Received: from lin16.mojsite.com (178.218.164.164:993) by g0n.xdwgrp with IMAP4-SSL; 22 Jul 2015 15:08:19 - Envelope-to: miro.ro...@croatiafidelis.hr Delivery-date: Wed, 22 Jul 2015 16:39:44 +0200 Received: from smtp7.plusvps.com ([89.201.164.170]:46869) by lin16.mojsite.com with esmtps (TLSv1:DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.85) id 1ZHvBJ-00069a-Rc for miro.ro...@croatiafidelis.hr; Wed, 22 Jul 2015 16:39:37 +0200 Received: from exim by smtp7.plusvps.com with local (Exim 4.84) id 1ZHvBJ-000FDh-Nq for miro.ro...@croatiafidelis.hr; Wed, 22 Jul 2015 16:39:37 +0200 X-Failed-Recipients: t...@debian.org Auto-Submitted: auto-replied From: Mail Delivery System To: miro.ro...@croatiafidelis.hr Subject: Mail delivery failed: returning message to sender Message-Id: Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2015 16:39:37 +0200 X-PlusHosting-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-PlusHosting-MailScanner-ID: 1ZHvBJ-00069a-Rc X-PlusHosting-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-PlusHosting-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (not cached, score=0.078, required 5, BAYES_00 -1.90, DSN_NO_MIMEVERSION 2.00, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3 -0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL -0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED 0.00) X-PlusHosting-MailScanner-From: X-Spam-Status: No X-getmail-retrieved-from-mailbox: =?utf-8?q?INBOX?= Status: RO X-Status: F Content-Length: 8693 This message was created automatically by mail delivery software. A message that you sent could not be delivered to one or more of its recipients. This is a permanent error. The following address(es) failed: t...@debian.org SMTP error from remote mail server after RCPT TO:: host mailly.debian.org [82.195.75.114]: 550 Unrouteable address -- This is a copy of the message, including all the headers. -- Return-path: Received: from lin16.mojsite.com ([178.218.164.164]) by smtp7.plusvps.com with esmtps (TLSv1:DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1ZHvBD-000FBy-EA for t...@debian.org; Wed, 22 Jul 2015 16:39:31 +0200 Received: from 93-139-7-37.adsl.net.t-com.hr ([93.139.7.37]:59875 helo=g0n.localdomain) by lin16.mojsite.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from ) id 1ZHvBC-00065X-LM; Wed, 22 Jul 2015 16:39:30 +0200 Received: by g0n.localdomain (Postfix, from userid 1000) id ED39638005A; Wed, 22 Jul 2015 16:40:12 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2015 16:40:12 +0200 From: miro.ro...@croatiafidelis.hr To: dng@lists.dyne.org Cc: Thorsten Glaser Subject: Will there be a MirDevuan "WTF"? Message-ID: <20150722144012.GA6689@g0n> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="AhhlLboLdkugWU4S" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.23+102 (2ca89bed6448) (2014-03-12) X-PlusHosting-MailScanner: Not scanned: please contact your Internet E-Mail Service Provider for details, Found to be clean X-PlusHosting-MailScanner-SpamCheck: X-Spam-Status: No, No X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - lin16.mojsite.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - debian.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - croatiafidelis.hr X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: lin16.mojsite.com: authenticated_id: miro.ro...@croatiafidelis.hr X-PlusHosting-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-PlusHosting-MailScanner-ID: 1ZHvBD-000FBy-EA X-PlusHosting-MailScanner-From: miro.ro...@croatiafidelis.hr --AhhlLboLdkugWU4S Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Conte
Re: [DNG] Will there be a MirDevuan "WTF"?
On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 02:51:59PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote: > On Wed, 22 Jul 2015 20:03:03 +0200 > miro.ro...@croatiafidelis.hr wrote: > > > On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 11:50:44AM -0400, Jude Nelson wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > If I was able to understand correctly, vdev works with dbus. > > > > > > > > > Vdev does not use dbus. No idea how or why you came to this > > > conclusion. Search the code if you don't believe me. > > > > > > -Jude > > I believe you. You never appeared dishonest to me. And I'm very glad > > that I was wrong! > > Am I the only one who doesn't understand one word of this thread? > > I'll say one thing though: Like miro.rovis, if I had my ideal system, > it would lack dbus. I was actually able to accomplish that with one > alternate-initted Manjaro-OpenRC. No dbus. I used oss instead of alsa, > and it worked great. And I have in my Gentoo alsa working perfectly (and surely: without pulseaudio), without dbus, really a nice, intrusion unfriendly install, and improving. And on my Debian when I mostly (not completely) succeeded in applying lots of stuff from: MirDebian "WTF" Repository https://www.mirbsd.org/~tg/Debs/debidx.htm (from another, the-then location, actually; and, speaking of changes, it appears MirDebian WTF has even more to offer now then back then, and is regularly updated)... Thorsten, are you reading this (see the attached "550 Unrouteable address" in the 2nd mail of mine in this thread if anybody wonder why I'ask)? I, then, had my Debian running pure alsa as well (but couldn't get the audio for TV-card to work...), and without most any of the other poetterware. And I made that Tips page about it (see my first-in-this-thread mail). It's not as read as my Grsec Install Tips page for Debian (see my 1st mail), not only was, but still is (still is!), but it did grew to a few thounsad views, it did. Ask golinux, xhe was suprised I looked like talking to muself in that page... Meaning, Debianers were able to follow it and clean their systems from systemd and dbus and pulseaudio with more or less success, or at the very least were eager too! Regards! -- Miroslav Rovis Zagreb, Croatia http://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Will there be a MirDevuan "WTF"?
On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 03:28:28PM -0700, James Powell wrote: > D-Bus isn't great, but currently it is still a cross-UNIX IPC in > userspace. BSD uses it, Illumos uses it, and so does GNU/Linux. > Since you would still like it around, in opportunistic or in some other way that I should call it, I think a question is due. Can you tell to the public what is the purpose of the user-not-asked-about, in fact mostly user-never-even-knowing-about-it encrypted ssh channel that dbus sets up, along with all the non-GNU-compatible remote procedure calls (which are there for what purpose?) that dbus implements? Is that for FOSS stands for? > D-Bus is way down my list of software to steer clear of any more. Your choice. Does that mean you won't look favorably that us who don't want dbus have a way with our Devuan installs? I hope not. > > On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 02:51:59PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote: > > On Wed, 22 Jul 2015 20:03:03 +0200 > > miro.ro...@croatiafidelis.hr wrote: > > > > > On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 11:50:44AM -0400, Jude Nelson wrote: > > > > Vdev does not use dbus. [...] > > > > -Jude > > > [...] And I'm very glad that I was wrong! > > > > I'll say one thing though: Like miro.rovis, if I had my ideal system, > > it would lack dbus. [...] > And I have in my Gentoo alsa working perfectly (and surely: without > pulseaudio), without dbus, really a nice, intrusion unfriendly install, > and improving. > > And on my Debian when I mostly (not completely) succeeded in applying > lots of stuff from: > > MirDebian "WTF" Repository > https://www.mirbsd.org/~tg/Debs/debidx.htm > [...] > without [...] poetterware. And I made that Tips page about it (see my > first-in-this-thread mail). It's not as read as my Grsec Install Tips > page for Debian (see my 1st mail), not only was, but still is (still > is!), but it did grew to a few thounsad viewsi [...] > > Meaning, Debianers were able to follow it and clean their systems from > systemd and dbus and pulseaudio with more or less success, or at the > very least were eager too! > Regards! -- Miroslav Rovis Zagreb, Croatia http://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Multi-seat on Devuan, do we actually need that useless curiosity?
On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 11:39:23PM -0500, T.J. Duchene wrote: > >On Thu, Jul 23, 2015 at 03:49:32AM +0300, Vlad wrote: > Multi-seat logins are very useful in situations where users do not > understand how to run X11 applications with different user > permissions. I guess so. > It is an easy mechanism that is familiar to users from > other systems coming over to Linux. Fine... > You don't have to have it installed on your copy, Intrinsically and absolutely important. I won't have'em in my copy! And if I get to teach newbies Grsec for Devuan, if Devuan gets fully-foss (in the terms of true freedom, such as SELinux, the spy-tool, certainly is not) or close enough to, as I hope (see the MirDevuan "WTF" thread too currently being contributed to), I will always recommend against multiseat too. > but having an option is not a bad thing. In controlled (I mean user controlled) cases, fine! Because, prove me wrong. Often the surveillors most used tools, since otherwise they wouldn't be able to follow their targets, is exactly multiseats. They see, sitting in their bunkers, which public at large has mostly never any notion about, and thanks to stuff like dbus, multiseat, pulseaudio (pulsoaudio was designed by those tools of the one-Ring-cravers for eavesdropping!), and surely systemd goes to perfection in bulk collection and worse!... They see, sitting in their bunkers, their target's every move, every move! On their screen, replicated what the torget does. In real time! And most of them wouldn't be able to follow their targets without such aides, because they're not all experts, really. A little harder following their tagets without any poetterware. A disclaimer: fine, the spies following targets, fine! When we really talk terrorists and criminals, you should follow those, I approve of that! But for the love of God, not wholesale surveillance on the general population, please! Regards! -- Miroslav Rovis Zagreb, Croatia http://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Multi-seat on Devuan, do we actually need that useless curiosity?
Is it because you send from (pasting from your header): Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.1.0 or is it for some other reason (or for both or/and other reasons yet), who can tell? But... > > > On 7/23/2015 12:01 AM, miro.ro...@croatiafidelis.hr wrote: > >Because, prove me wrong. > Miro, I truly wish you well, but feel no need to prove anything to you. :-) > If you are developing for the public who want to use Free Open Source Software, you may need to be at least kind, not in such attempted condiscending protecting fashion like the line above would want to sound, but sincerely kind, at least to some extent, and also truthful in recognizing actual arguments put to you regarding the software they you want to develop, or develop with, and which they want to use. > >Often the surveillors most used tools, since otherwise they wouldn't be > >able to follow their targets, is exactly multiseats. They see, sitting in > >their bunkers, which public at large has mostly never any notion about, > >and thanks to stuff like dbus, multiseat, pulseaudio (pulsoaudio was > >designed by those tools of the one-Ring-cravers for eavesdropping!), and > >surely systemd goes to perfection in bulk collection and worse!... > > [Remember the "But... " above. My Mutt showing me this, from the Thunderbird GUI that T.J. Duchene uses, mangled, and I don't see it displayed clearly on: https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20150723.073512.9673917a.en.html either... > >They see, sitting in their bunkers, their target's every move, every move! > >On their screen, replicated what the torget does. In real time! And most > >of them wouldn't be able to follow their targets without such aides, > >because they're not all experts, really. A little harder following their > >tagets without any poetterware. A disclaimer: fine, the spies following > >targets, fine! When we really talk terrorists and criminals, you should > >follow those, I approve of that! But for the love of God, not wholesale > >surveillance on the general population, please! Regards! > > > The reason we prefer FOSS to proprietary code is that the source code is > open. You should never infer such things about other people and their > contributions to FOSS without proof, which you can easily get. What proof? That there exists mass surveillance by most all big subjects that can afford it? You need proofs for that? That the RPC in dbus are made so that the programs in unixdom could work with proprietory programs? I'm really no expert on this one, but I did remember it well when a programmer complained about it. And I simply believed. Just like I believe Jude C. Nelson when he said no need of dbus for vdev (which I must repeat, is great to know!). > If you have proof of these things, please post the relevant portions > of the source code so that I might see these things, and offer you my > deepest thanks. Again, what proofs? That there is bulk data collection? And if there is bulk data collection, the new term, previous term: mass surveillance... If is it there, and I don't think you can denied that there is, then: Do you really really think they wouldn't want to get into all of unixdom like they have in their pocket everything, I mean everything (and I'm only citing Edward Snowden, the American hero), all of appledom and all of M$ windillidillidom. Do you really really think they wouldn't get their f**ing tools (only citing Christopher Barry, find the link on, wait, I'll copy it from there: ttp://lkml.org/lkml/2014/8/12/459 (copied from: https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20150722.143942.1c1b286a.en.html )) Do you really really think they wouldn't get their tools (Poettering, Sievers and cameraderie), to work, and work hard to open the unixdom to them like the appledom and windillidillidom? (Sorry I really hate windoze). What do you think they pay them such money for? To make the world freeer and nicer? Or to serve their one-ring-to-rule-them-all purposes? > Until you have real proof, baseless rumor and innuendo damage people's > reputations for no reason. It is wrong, and it is in very poor taste. > Without proof, no one will take you seriously, and rightly so. > Poor taste is Windoze, and overwhelmed in such poor taste, you have difficulty understanding my arguments. Maybe because you don't want to admit the truth. Poor taste is Windoze, if we know history, and many in Devuan do, and always will, I hope. How much has that Billy the bandit (morally so), turned (of recent) eugenic philantropist, made this world a more stupid and less free place... (I mean Bill Gates if someone is in doubt). Is it that you have no access to a *nix OS, or is it why? Do you like Windoze? How can someone like Windoze and develop in Linux, I sincerely don't understand that. > Be well, Miro. > I'm well. I'm afraid you are not, as there is no goodness in what you use, and something could be very disharmonious in that for you and for Devuan.
Re: [DNG] Will there be a MirDevuan "WTF"?
--- I sent this message four hours ago, but didn't include the list address. Sorry! --- On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 10:49:34PM -0700, James Powell wrote: ( shouldn't it be like below?, by the netiqette --see KalolaZ just arrived letter in the Multi-seat thread-- ? ) > > Since you would still like it around, in opportunistic or in some other > > way that I should call it, I think a question is due. > > Can you tell to the public what is the purpose of the > > user-not-asked-about, in fact mostly user-never-even-knowing-about-it > > encrypted ssh channel that dbus sets up, along with all the > > non-GNU-compatible remote procedure calls (which are there for what > > purpose?) that dbus implements? > > > > Is that for FOSS stands for? > > > First off cool your jets, and trying call me out on knowing the > internals of an IPC in Userspace I didn't develop is very childish. > Why not? If you're promoting it, or persuading Devuan into the acceptance of it? Anyway, can anyone answer that question? > I honestly don't care if D-Bus what it does other than be a > communication and messaging relay between applications and processes, > as long as it does what it does, and doesn't infringe on anything > else. > > D-Bus is used and is a requirement for some services and software. > You're unfortunately not going to have your cake and coffee with > getting rid of D-Bus. Well then, keep it for those cases, don't put it in all the Devuan boxen by default. Will be fine! > Yes, it's not the greatest design, but it is > friendly at least to the whole UNIX spectrum. > "friendly"... No comment. > Devuan's main purpose is getting rid of systemd as a hard dependency > and allowing user choice in init software, not ripping apart every > project to cater to ever niche and fundamentalist out there preaching > what they feel is FOSS, and also to not start a witch hunt on software > projects. What fundamentalists? The Gentoo folks? Thorsten mirabilos Glaser with his MirDebian "WTF" project, a fundamentalist? Me, a fundamentalist? What do you mean? My desire to, after have achived it for me (but only in Gentoo), some freedom and some security, to teach, if we get a true-foss Devuan that can get its MirDevuan "WTF" fork for itself, to teach newbies to build their system hardened-against-intrusion and surveillance-defeating, that desire of mine a fundamentalist desire? --- The rest cut out because somewhat made disorderly and illegible by probably hotmail defaults (that the immediate sender who I'm replying to apparently uses) or for some other reason. --- Regards! -- Miroslav Rovis Zagreb, Croatia http://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Will there be a MirDevuan "WTF"?
On Thu, Jul 23, 2015 at 11:06:29AM -0400, Hendrik Boom wrote: > I do not understand this entire thread. > > I have not a clue what a MirDevuan "WTF" would be. > What does the Mir" prefix contribute the the meaning? > What does "WTF" mean in thei context. I mean what the fuck? > > -- hendrik (corrected typoes in your input, if that's not what you meant, cry foul!) Hi, hendrik! Yes, WTF probably means that (but they may have another excuse-name along). They were really outraged at the Debian Developers in charge for not allowing the name, wait, I got to search for it... (I'll search from the first message in this thread, the one with a host of links, by me)... Yes I think it's in the first. At first, one of the DD, Wookey, made: systemd-must-die find it in the: How to avoid stealth installation of systemd? http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=116770&start=15#p550700 (second page) I can remember and tell about it because I wrote to them: (same topic) http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=116770&start=30#p552484 (third page) but it was almost certainly censored out but the then provider of mine, You can find the link in that same "stealth install" topic to: Postfix smtp-tls-wrapper, Bkp/Cloning Mthd, a Zerk Provider https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-999436.html which if you open, you easily find: status=bounced (host 127.0.0.1[127.0.0.1] said: 550-"JunkMail rejected - 147-226.dsl.iskon.hr (n4m3.localdomain) 550-[89.164.147.226]:41972 is in an RBL, see 550 and you can, if you have time and are interested in fighting censorship, study around there, as well as (not confirmed, only suspected): https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20150722.180226.3ff750a1.en.html where find: 550 Unrouteable address (when I send email to Thorsten) and imagine what happened. Did mirabilos quit Debian? I don't know, but being that he provides packages for Debian, I don't think it's likely. So if you are interested about why they call it that, that's probably it. For more, one can read that resumé topic of mine, which although 12 forum pages, is much, much shorter than the very ample discussion on DD List. I wrote those forum pages of resumé for DD List discussions, after I read pretty much all of the then recent DD mail archive, So... The systemd-must-die was not allowed in the repository because of the name. Everything is being killed all the time in Unix, jobs and processes, but systemd was not allowed to die, by some moralist DD. To be honest, I'm not sure about the details of the prevent-systemd packages now. I would be if I were to install it, but I'm waiting for Devuan to get dbus-free, or allow dbus freedom in some way... Maybe mirabilos mada a package of his own, probably so, yeah, and didn't build on wookey's package... So I haven't (so far) made contact with Thorsten mirabilos Glaser, the founder of MirBSD, but should Devuan eventually fail to provide a no-dbus and no-poetterware desktop, I might have to, forced to search for options, also be learning more about it... Who knows. I won't be running a dbus- or a poetterware- nothing. But I hope you at Devuan will be working to get a distro that can be installed hardened, no-dbus, no-any-poetterware and associates, and maybe one of the ways might be forking the MirDebian WTF to MirDevuan WTF for Devuan needs... But I am really not a dev, and I really have spoken enough I believe. Unless someone has questions, or either T.J Duchene or James Powell decide to reply to my questions to them, or launch some counter questions, I'll be looking for my exit from contributing to this developers' list, and follow you silently. The links to MirBSD are, in the 1st page above mentioned, only, use the domain only: MirBSD https://www.mirbsd.org/ and it is called after his nickname, mirabilos, I believe. -- Miroslav Rovis Zagreb, Croatia http://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Will there be a MirDevuan "WTF"?
On Fri, Jul 24, 2015 at 09:11:57AM +0200, Jaromil wrote: > > > On 24 July 2015 05:26:00 CEST, Isaac Dunham wrote: > >On Fri, Jul 24, 2015 at 01:53:15AM +0200, Jaromil wrote: > >> On Thu, 23 Jul 2015, Hendrik Boom wrote: > >> > >> > I do not understand this entire thread. > > >> yep. this is sort of going bonkers. > > [... Isaac's detailed explanation ...] > > >Does that clarify anything? > > yes Isaac, thanks for taking the time. I'm sorry to sound harsh, but for some > reason > me and Jude started receiving private emails of similar confusing kind and > this made > me nervous enough to compalain here. Glad we can count on your balanced > reaction. > > I did not know Mir's story, neither analysed packages. Are they in a git > repo? that would > help a lot, perhaps we could host them on our gitlab if needed. > > I am interested in the effort and it would be easy to offer Devuan/Mir > installers toasted > through our CI. I think such a minimal system is interesting to have, I can > imagine it would > be saving some time when installing embedded and/or hardened systems. > I'd like to thank Isaac too, and I'm really grateful to you! I can see that, now, Jaromil, you basically seem to be inclined to allow in Devuan pretty much just what I tried to get available in it (not just for me, but for others who will want to go that way). And to me, that really has much more weight than the little hardship that made me a little annoyed and, also spiteful, in one or two occasions. I hope this matter need not cause unrest to anyone any longer now. I would however like to show how I'm trying to bring things to cooperativeness with Thorsten too: MirDebian WTF topic on Devuan ML http://marc.info/?t=14376843265&r=1&w=2 (the thread itself is because they had it set that way, to me that is OK, even though neither me, not Jaromil wrote to the list. I'm sure the matter discussed is the kind that devs like not to remain in private mails, but to go directly to public) where, please find my recent message: (same title) http://marc.info/?l=miros-discuss&m=143775343704222&w=2 and if now this matter turns out in more peaceful terms from all the involved, I'll be more than happy! And I'd like to, as soon as I find time, test if I can install a no-dbus no-poetterware Devuan, and till then, I'll be off the list, only reading from you, since I'm not a dev, and really my top achievement I'm afraid can only be, hopefully a good tester. But I will be busy elsewhere in the forthcoming days, and I expect to find time to test Devuan like that hardly sooner than in ten *or more* days only. But I'm really looking forward to my testing Devuan! -- Miroslav Rovis Zagreb, Croatia http://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Distrowatch
On 151102-13:00-0500, Steve Litt wrote: > On Mon, 2 Nov 2015 21:57:23 +0800 > Robert Storey wrote: > > > > From: Nuno Magalhães > > > > > > Unfortunately it only allows you to search by package, leaving you > > > with a lot of non-linux and inactive distros - and no ranking. > > > But it's a nice feature. > > > > Yes, but biggest problem is that it misses some good non-systemd > > distros like Gentoo and Manjaro-OpenRC because those do include the > > systemd packages but it's use is optional. > > Big difference between the preceding two. As far as I know, Gentoo has > shown no reluctance to *eventually* switching to systemd. It is very unlikely that Gentoo would switch to systemd. Study for yourself the huge forum threads, such as: Why is Gentoo not switching to systemd? https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-998108.html ( pls. notice here the poll: I <3 systemd!! I want Gentoo to switch!! 12% [ 26 ] Get that horse-crap away from Gentoo as far as possible! 87% [ 186 ] ) Why is Gentoo not switching to systemd? Part 2 https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-1003784.html The Politics of systemd https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-983808.html The Politics of systemd Part 2 https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-1031982.html > By its very > existence, Manjaro-OpenRC has. Here are the distros I've heard of that > have taken an absolute stand not to *ever* default to systemd: > > * Devuan > * Funtoo > * Void Linux > * And by context, Manjaro-OpenRC > So add Gentoo in the list above. Believe me, a non-systemd Gentoo is I could almost say from my experiencs, almost very close to perfection (I however use a kind of minimalist install: I hate and never intend to use in any way in my system the *dbus*[**], the great partner to systemd in poetterizing FOSS Linux). That presented in defence of Gentoo, you never know. Such as: My most favorite, my most admired program in FOSS, the program that I believe fixes the hooks for the one-ring cravers in the FOSS Linux kernel introduced since the LSM, and which program, actually a set of patches to the kernel, I dreamed of some day teaching newbies how to deploy in their Devuan (as I have with success taught newbies in Devuan, bafore the disgusting systemd took over Debian, has gone incompleteware: the grsecurity Read who is interested, since I do remeber, from some of my previous few participations in the discussion here, that there are some devs[*] in Devuan, who deploy grsecurity and know the huge benefits of grsecurity: Intel Subsidiary's Violations Made Grsec withdraw Stable? https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-1031476.html Regards! [*] I'm just a somewhat advanced user only, so I won't participate much in the discussion here. [**] and I remember Jude C. Nelson wrote that *vdev* will not depend on dbus, great to know! -- Miroslav Rovis Zagreb, Croatia http://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Quick start guide to uprading to Devuan and configuring minimalism
On 151104-18:07-, dev1fan...@use.startmail.com wrote: > I'm still getting used to the mailing list so sorry if this starts a second > post > > I didn't realise I would get such a good response for sharing a little > knowledge, thanks to everyone for the compliments and for resharing. I > posted here just hoping to help someone for now until I had more to share. I > wasn't sure how to respond at first as I'm not used to publishing but I will > say that yes I'm happy for everyone to share, modify, and reuse my previous > post/work on upgrading devuan and configuring minimalism. Please also give > others permission to do so, and you can just mention dev1fanboy if you like. > > > It was kindly suggested to me by one of the installer devs from the > debianfork channel that I could share it on the devuan gitlib instance under > my own project. I didn't realise they had it open for others to sign up > (which is cool), or maybe it's my noobishness about gitlab as well but i > have posted it here: > > https://git.devuan.org/dev1fanboy/Upgrade-Install-Devuan/wikis/Upgrade-to-Devuan-and-minimalism And looking up also: http://wiki.friendsofdevuan.org/doku.php/quick_start_minimal And I was wondering. In my Tips page on Debian: Grsecurity/Pax installation on Debian GNU/Linux http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?t=108616 and my dream being to teach newbies deploying grsec-hardened kernel in Devuan, since Debian has fallen victim to poetter-people... [And I was wondering] (sorry if I've rusted a bit in Debian/Devuan ways and terminology since), *grsecurity* can since recently (see: Intel Subsidiary's Violations Made Grsec withdraw Stable? https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-1031476.html gone stable-available-only-for-sponsors (and I don't blame the grsec devs for that...) ) Since grsecurity can since recently only be used if you use testing kernel (such as the current one in my Gentoo: 4.2.5-hardened), I was wondering, and excuse my ignorance if that is the case, whether after: Upgrading Debian to Devuan Stable (aka Jessie 1.0) it is possible to use a testing kernel on the Devuan Stable Jessie 1.0, to then compile and deploy grsecurity-hardened kernel, much like I was doing in my Devuan tips page above? (A note is due: much that I'm eager to, if the answer to my query is: YES it can be done, try that A.S.A.P and report, poor health and other issues may prevent me for some more time to do so; pls. should that be the case, don't count it at inconsistency on my part) -- Miroslav Rovis Zagreb, Croatia http://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Distrowatch
On 151105-21:19-0500, Steve Litt wrote: > On Thu, 5 Nov 2015 21:18:42 + > Nuno Magalhães wrote: > > > On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 8:49 AM, wrote: > > > > > > It is very unlikely that Gentoo would switch to systemd. > > > > I sure hope so, it and slackware are my current distros of choice ever > > since Debian ceased to be, it's been fun. > > However, i must point out that Gentoo does have systemd as an option > > and this, IMHO, is the best approach i've seen so far to this whole > > conundrum: default OpenRC, optional (if you choose), systemd. > > Everybody's happy. > > > > As for distros that'll never ever change to systemd... look to the > > past and see what happened. > > > > Cheers, > > Nuno > > I'd start by booting a System Rescue CD CD, the Gentoo based Live CD, that is. > hopefully booting it to RAM > so you can remove the CD. Sure, that's the recommended way... > Run it for a couple hours. If you hear any > beeps, it's hardware. Otherwise it was software and you can start from > there. > > You really wouldn't want to start with an erroneous assumption as to > whether it's hardware or software: That's the kind of thing that leads > to day or week long efforts. > Probably that is the case. In fact I sure can take your word that it is. I mostly agree with your opinions which I read in Devuan ML. You're credible enough. (It probably depends on what you do with it, in my minimal use, just backup and restore, if face cloning my systems, to be truthful, I don't have those issues. But that does not mean I recommend anything systemd-based.) But it seems you present Sysresccd as a typical Gentoo install, and that it reflect the acceptance if systemd in Gentoo, is that the case? If it is, you are wrong (in your presenting of Sysresccd as being typical for Gentoo). Sysresccd is not recommended as a live system to use, to newbies in Gentoo Installation guide, since a few years ago. It was previously, maybe 5 or so years ago. Not anymore. Regards! -- Miroslav Rovis Zagreb, Croatia http://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Quick start guide to uprading to Devuan and configuring minimalism
On 151107-12:06+0100, Alexander Bochmann wrote: > ...on Thu, Nov 05, 2015 at 11:10:49AM +0100, miro.ro...@croatiafidelis.hr > wrote: > > > it is possible to use a testing kernel on the Devuan Stable Jessie 1.0, > > to then compile and deploy grsecurity-hardened kernel, much like I was > > Didn't actually try that on Devuan yet, but I wouldn't expect > any problems unless you forget to configure in something essential... > > I have Wheezy running on 4.2.x-grsec kernels, and besides the usual > suspects that need some pax flags (java, iceweasel), everything works. > Ah yes, /usr/sbin/grub-probe needs to have MPROTECT disabled, too. > Great to know! I can't tell you how much I'd like to try it, and resume teaching newbies grsecurity hardening, only in Devuan. But, poor health and other problems... Also, I'm really happy to see that you cater for users who want no-dbus (nor other poetterware). Recommended you the other day over on Gentoo Forums (like that I haven't already in many occasions spoke about my hopes in the Devuan projects): Uninstalling dbus and *kits (to Unfacilitate Remote Seats) https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-992146-start-75.html#7837424 (just search for string Devuan) Regards! -- Miroslav Rovis Zagreb, Croatia http://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
