Re: [DNG] Debian is endorsed by Microsoft

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Fri, 22 Jan 2016 01:29:06 +0100, Wim wrote in message 

Re: [DNG] Debian is endorsed by Microsoft

[dev1fanboy]

A lot of what you say sums up my feelings about systemd and microsoft. When 
these things had happened what was of the gnu/linux community practically all 
rejected anything that smells like microsoft, and it was necessary to do that 
imo (just as some zeal is necessary now for other inits to survive). We know 
what to expect from microsoft for the most part, so giving them a pass for 
"normal business practises" I don't think is sensible and might even be naive 
for many with the same experiences. Being fully about selling proprietary 
software, and the other problems the OS presents I can't give them a pass for 
anything as it gives others the wrong impression about free software/open 
source values. These are learned values and I'm not sure the time is right to 
unchange them, if microsoft GPL's their entire OS and stops all bad business 
practises then sure, but it would be naive for anyone with these experiences to 
expect that there is no FUD or bad motivations there. It also makes me wond
 er what will happen with debian now that microsoft apparently loves them. If 
people don't think the systemd culture emerging is not elitist, zealous, or 
cultish.. better to take a look at how they try to stop others from making a 
choice other than the software they produce. It's their way or the high way.

On Friday, January 22, 2016 12:33 AM, Steve Litt  
wrote:
> On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 12:08:19 +
> Simon Hobson  wrote:
> 
>> reading this list is like being at an evangelical meeting of some
>> hardcore cult - and that *IS* very off-putting to a large number of
>> people.
> 
> Both clauses of the preceding partial sentence are absolutely true. And
> it goes without saying that I am a minor priest in this cult.
> 
> Here's the thing though: If you say in public that you don't use
> systemd, that's offputting to 1/3 of the Linux population. A very vocal
> and judgmental 1/3. If you actively participate in any plan to provide
> an alternative to systemd, you've now offput 2/3 of the Linux
> population, and are going to get your name constantly dragged through
> the mud.
> 
> So the Devuan project has already offput 2/3 of the Linux population.
> And although I cannot provide any backup for this opinion, it's my
> opinion that most fans of corporate Linux are in the 2/3 we already
> offput, and very few real fans of corporate Linux remain in the 1/3 not
> yet offput.
> 
> So there are few left in our membership and prospective membership who
> would be offput by anti-Microsoft assertions.
> 
> Meanwhile, the fact that we're Linux at all skews us to have long ago
> blown off the Microsoft fans, and makes it likely that a sizeable
> portion of us have very anti-Microsoft opinions, especially those who
> have been in Linux long enough to remember the Halloween Documents,
> Microsoft's Halloween Code, Microsoft execs Mundie and Allchin's whines
> to congress to make GPL illegal, and Microsoft's generous license fees
> paid to Linux patent troll SCO, which enabled SCO to randomly sue Linux
> users for several more years.
> 
> Bottom line, we long ago blew off most of those who would have found
> our, or at least my, way of phrasing things offputting.
> 
> We all hope there will come a time when Devuan becomes a plurality
> force in the world of Linux. Such an eventuality is no less probable
> than was Linux's takeover of everything but the desktop, if that
> probability were predicted in the 1990's. And if you look at Linux
> promotion in the 1990's, it was very cultish within, and very
> offputting to fans of corporate computing or even those who believed
> technology choice to be a meritocracy.
> 
> And when Devuan becomes such a plurality, having won the war for the
> hearts and minds of those having strong believes concerning software
> choice and modularity, we'll tone down our rhetoric to become more
> inclusive of meritocracy believers and all but the most hard-core
> corporatists. But it's too early for that now: Right now our job is to
> inspire strong beliefs leading to strong development, testing,
> documentation and advocacy, and an absolute and constitutional
> rejection of systemd.
> 
> SteveT
> 
> Steve Litt
> January 2016 featured book: Twenty Eight Tales of Troubleshooting
> http://www.troubleshooters.com/28
> 
> 
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Re: [DNG] Debian is endorsed by Microsoft

[KatolaZ]

On Thu, Jan 21, 2016 at 12:08:19PM +, Simon Hobson wrote:
> KatolaZ  wrote:
> 
> > Well, not everybody pays his bills developing open source software,
> > but if I were a Debian developer, who had adhered to the debian Social
> > Contract [1], I would find it difficult to organise a fest to
> > celebrate Microsoft offering Debian as an option on its
> > azure-whatever. Call me a hippy, if you want, but I do see some
> > incoherence there.
> 
> What if we s/Microsoft/Rackspace/
> (you can use pretty well any hosting outfit really)
> The basic underlying thing that this announcement shows is that ${company} 
> now supports ${OS} on it's hosting platform. Yes, the sole reason they are 
> doing it where ${OS}==Debian is because they think there's money to be made 
> from it. I think you'll find that most of the hosting outfits are in it to 
> make money - sorry if the idea that someone is allowed to make a profit 
> upsets some sensitive types.
> 

I have never had problems with people making money out of Free
Software. I paid bills for several years in that way. And also Richard
Stallman himself has done the same, just to make a notable example.

Only, I have never seen a party organised to celebrate, say,
DigitalOcean (replace it with whatever other provider you have in
mind) supporting Debian Jessie. The real support to GNU/Linux and
Debian has come from silent hackers. That's why I get suspicious when
trumpets start blowing "Linux" or "Debian", especially if the one who
blows them is a corporate which makes money prevalently with
closed-source software, and has done all was in its power to denigrate
Free and Open Source Software in the last 15 years.

[cut]

> 
> Whether supporting Debian on Azure is just logical, or there's an ulterior 
> motive, it's happened and we don't know which reason it is. What I am sure 
> about though is that talking as though there's nothing MS, RH, and certain 
> others do that isn't driven by some "bad intention" sends out a bad message 
> that is off-putting to some and plays into the hands of others.
> I'm just suggesting that sometimes, reading this list is like being at an 
> evangelical meeting of some hardcore cult - and that *IS* very off-putting to 
> a large number of people.
> 

Sorry, but I can't see any evangelisation taking place here. Just
civilised discussions, implying the expression of opinions which might
diverge, at some point.  If this is off-putting, then you are probably
not used to discussions.

My opinion is that whatever comes from a corporate is to be considered
as potentially harmful, for the simple reason that the natural
(obvious and correct) aim of corporates is to make money for
themselves, not to help hackers make their own dreams happen. This is
not an evangelical message. It's just one opinion, that you can accept
or reject, but would hardly be able to change without substantial
evidence.

My2Cents

KatolaZ

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Re: [DNG] Debian is endorsed by Microsoft

[Simon Hobson]

KatolaZ  wrote:

> Well, not everybody pays his bills developing open source software,
> but if I were a Debian developer, who had adhered to the debian Social
> Contract [1], I would find it difficult to organise a fest to
> celebrate Microsoft offering Debian as an option on its
> azure-whatever. Call me a hippy, if you want, but I do see some
> incoherence there.

What if we s/Microsoft/Rackspace/
(you can use pretty well any hosting outfit really)
The basic underlying thing that this announcement shows is that ${company} now 
supports ${OS} on it's hosting platform. Yes, the sole reason they are doing it 
where ${OS}==Debian is because they think there's money to be made from it. I 
think you'll find that most of the hosting outfits are in it to make money - 
sorry if the idea that someone is allowed to make a profit upsets some 
sensitive types.


> The user base of Debian is already the largest, in the server
> industry, without Microsoft intervention. And this is the "problem"
> Microsoft would like to "solve" with this "smart" move, IMHO.

Maybe, I can see that their motive may not be entirely "pure".


I'll point out that I am certainly no fan of MS or their (proven illegal) 
business practices. I'm well recognised in the office for it - and it's hard 
working in a small services company that's effectively an "MS shop". But 
there's a difference between disliking them and how they do things, and having 
an irrational complex that *everything* they do is all about their dodgy 
practices.

Whether supporting Debian on Azure is just logical, or there's an ulterior 
motive, it's happened and we don't know which reason it is. What I am sure 
about though is that talking as though there's nothing MS, RH, and certain 
others do that isn't driven by some "bad intention" sends out a bad message 
that is off-putting to some and plays into the hands of others.
I'm just suggesting that sometimes, reading this list is like being at an 
evangelical meeting of some hardcore cult - and that *IS* very off-putting to a 
large number of people.

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Re: [DNG] Debian is endorsed by Microsoft

[Marlon Nunes]

On 2016-01-21 09:32, KatolaZ wrote:

On Thu, Jan 21, 2016 at 12:08:19PM +, Simon Hobson wrote:

KatolaZ  wrote:

> Well, not everybody pays his bills developing open source software,
> but if I were a Debian developer, who had adhered to the debian Social
> Contract [1], I would find it difficult to organise a fest to
> celebrate Microsoft offering Debian as an option on its
> azure-whatever. Call me a hippy, if you want, but I do see some
> incoherence there.

What if we s/Microsoft/Rackspace/
(you can use pretty well any hosting outfit really)
The basic underlying thing that this announcement shows is that 
${company} now supports ${OS} on it's hosting platform. Yes, the sole 
reason they are doing it where ${OS}==Debian is because they think 
there's money to be made from it. I think you'll find that most of the 
hosting outfits are in it to make money - sorry if the idea that 
someone is allowed to make a profit upsets some sensitive types.




I have never had problems with people making money out of Free
Software. I paid bills for several years in that way. And also Richard
Stallman himself has done the same, just to make a notable example.

Only, I have never seen a party organised to celebrate, say,
DigitalOcean (replace it with whatever other provider you have in
mind) supporting Debian Jessie. The real support to GNU/Linux and
Debian has come from silent hackers. That's why I get suspicious when
trumpets start blowing "Linux" or "Debian", especially if the one who
blows them is a corporate which makes money prevalently with
closed-source software, and has done all was in its power to denigrate
Free and Open Source Software in the last 15 years.

[cut]



Whether supporting Debian on Azure is just logical, or there's an 
ulterior motive, it's happened and we don't know which reason it is. 
What I am sure about though is that talking as though there's nothing 
MS, RH, and certain others do that isn't driven by some "bad 
intention" sends out a bad message that is off-putting to some and 
plays into the hands of others.
I'm just suggesting that sometimes, reading this list is like being at 
an evangelical meeting of some hardcore cult - and that *IS* very 
off-putting to a large number of people.




Sorry, but I can't see any evangelisation taking place here. Just
civilised discussions, implying the expression of opinions which might
diverge, at some point.  If this is off-putting, then you are probably
not used to discussions.

My opinion is that whatever comes from a corporate is to be considered
as potentially harmful, for the simple reason that the natural
(obvious and correct) aim of corporates is to make money for
themselves, not to help hackers make their own dreams happen. This is
not an evangelical message. It's just one opinion, that you can accept
or reject, but would hardly be able to change without substantial
evidence.

My2Cents

KatolaZ


+1

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Re: [DNG] Debian is endorsed by Microsoft

[dev1fanboy]

On Thursday, January 21, 2016 12:08 PM, Simon Hobson  
wrote:
> KatolaZ  wrote:
> 

 
> Whether supporting Debian on Azure is just logical, or there's an ulterior
> motive, it's happened and we don't know which reason it is. What I am sure
> about though is that talking as though there's nothing MS, RH, and certain
> others do that isn't driven by some "bad intention" sends out a bad
> message that is off-putting to some and plays into the hands of others.
> I'm just suggesting that sometimes, reading this list is like being at an
> evangelical meeting of some hardcore cult - and that *IS* very off-putting
> to a large number of people.

So for having our own values we are a "hardcore cult", how dare we voice our 
opinions or stand up for our values (like anyone else in the free software 
community, btw). Better yet, let's go back to debian because otherwise we're 
elitists.  

> 
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Re: [DNG] Debian is endorsed by Microsoft

[KatolaZ]

On Thu, Jan 21, 2016 at 10:12:08AM +, Simon Hobson wrote:

[cut]

> 
> 
> I have to say that some of what I see written on this list plays right into 
> the "bunch of hippies with an axe to grind" stereotype some people like to 
> bash GNU/Linux/FOSS with.
> I realise some people have strong views on some things. I can't help getting 
> the feeling that some people are letting prejudice and hatred for certain 
> people or projects cloud their judgement. Yes there are real technical 
> reasons for wanting to avoid SystemD, there are no real technical reasons for 
> believing that someone can't work for Microsoft and on Debian while also 
> having integrity.
> 
> 

Well, not everybody pays his bills developing open source software,
but if I were a Debian developer, who had adhered to the debian Social
Contract [1], I would find it difficult to organise a fest to
celebrate Microsoft offering Debian as an option on its
azure-whatever. Call me a hippy, if you want, but I do see some
incoherence there.

The user base of Debian is already the largest, in the server
industry, without Microsoft intervention. And this is the "problem"
Microsoft would like to "solve" with this "smart" move, IMHO.

My2Cents

KatolaZ

[1] https://www.debian.org/social_contract

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Re: [DNG] Debian is endorsed by Microsoft

[Didier Kryn]

Le 20/01/2016 23:25, dev1fanboy a écrit :

Not surprising. They already threw a party for Debian 8 (not debian in general, 
but debian 8).

http://openness.microsoft.com/blog/2015/04/21/microsoft-debian-8-linuxfest/

The ethical break down is enough of a reason for them to throw a party imho.

On Wednesday, January 20, 2016 10:19 PM, Mitt Green  
wrote:

https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/blog/debian-images-now-available-on-azure/

Debian will be offered as an endorsed operating system in Azure
Marketplace.
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Let me underline a few words of the documents:

"[the fest is] hosted by Jose Miguel Parrella, a Debian Developer and 
member of Microsoft’s Open Source Strategy team"


It's absolutely amazing that one can be a Debian developper and a 
member of Microsoft in the same time. Yes, that's an ethical break down 
of the whole Debian project.


Didier

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Re: [DNG] Debian is endorsed by Microsoft

[Simon Hobson]

Didier Kryn  wrote:

>It's absolutely amazing that one can be a Debian developper and a member 
> of Microsoft in the same time. Yes, that's an ethical break down of the whole 
> Debian project.

I think some people are reading more into this than they should.
There is no reason whatsoever that someone can not have a foot in both camps 
without there being any conflict. Microsoft isn't a single person, it's not 
even one "group" - there are different activities going on in there (and the 
same applies to Debian). So it's quite feasible that they would have people 
working on "open source" stuff without that compromising on those same people 
working on FOSS projects.

As to why Microsoft would support Debian, and why they'd only support Debian 8 ?
Simple economics. If people are looking to run Debian in the cloud, then 
Microsoft can support that, or they can watch as potential customers go to 
someone else. And if Microsoft can't host it and the customer goes elsewhere, 
then that customer may well decide to take their other (Windows) stuff 
elsewhere as well rather than deal with multiple cloud providers.
As to why only Debian 8 and not anything else - well it's logical that they'd 
only add support for the currently supported stable version. Had they added 
support for Debian (say) a year or so ago then they might have started with 
Debian 7 as that was then the currently supported stable version. It would be a 
hard sell to say "hey guys, lets put investment into an old version that's 
almost out of support" :-/

That really is something that anyone with a few brain cells switched on should 
be capable of understanding. It doesn't require any underlying conspiracy 
theory, it doesn't require any assumption that they are trying their usual 
"embrace, extend, and extinguish" tactics, just that some of the managers there 
actually have some clue about doing business in the real world.
That extends to their apparent epiphany in now supporting what they used to 
call a cancer. It's simply a realisation on the part of those who actually do 
understand, that FOSS is here to stay and they can either accept that or lock 
themselves out of an increasing part of the IT world.

I'm not saying that there is no element within MS still trying to embrace, 
extend, and extinguish - just that you don't need to assume that to understand 
why they might support things like Debian.


Turning this around a bit, suppose someone from MS came along and asked one or 
more of your guys "some of our clients are demanding Devuan support on Azure, 
will you come and work part time on making that happen ?" - what would your 
response be ?

Would it be "hell no, I'm not working for MS *because* it's MS"
Or would it be, "yes - it's MS, but it's getting Devuan to a wider user base ?"


I have to say that some of what I see written on this list plays right into the 
"bunch of hippies with an axe to grind" stereotype some people like to bash 
GNU/Linux/FOSS with.
I realise some people have strong views on some things. I can't help getting 
the feeling that some people are letting prejudice and hatred for certain 
people or projects cloud their judgement. Yes there are real technical reasons 
for wanting to avoid SystemD, there are no real technical reasons for believing 
that someone can't work for Microsoft and on Debian while also having integrity.


As an aside, someone I know works for Redhat - I didn't realise he'd changed 
jobs until recently (he used to work for a private company that was a spinout 
from a university project). He's a nice guy, and very clever I might add. 
Should I think less of him because Redhat pays his wages ? He's not involved 
with systemd, nor anything else contentious AFAIK - he works on virtualisation, 
something many of us use. As it happens, as an Apple user I used to rely 
heavily on a (hidden in the OS) technology his previous employer came up with.

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Re: [DNG] Debian is endorsed by Microsoft

[Simon Hobson]

dev1fanboy  wrote:

> So for having our own values we are a "hardcore cult", how dare we voice our 
> opinions or stand up for our values (like anyone else in the free software 
> community, btw). Better yet, let's go back to debian because otherwise we're 
> elitists.  

That's not what I said - and if it reads that way then I failed articulate my 
opinion well (wouldn't be the first time).

This is just the latest. There have been a few subjects that have come up where 
the undertone from some participants has been fairly solidly along the lines of 
"if it comes from X then it has to be bad" as though it's not possible for X to 
do anything other than totally bad, and do it for malicious reasons. When you 
get into that state of mind, then reasoned discussion is suppressed, and that 
doesn't promote a friendly atmosphere.

I agree that it's "quite unusual" to have a party to celebrate a hosting 
service supporting a particular OS - but given the hostility in the past, it 
does seem to be something of a milestone, and I can see how someone might want 
to use that as an excuse for a party. I don't doubt that being employed by the 
hosting provider (I imagine specifically working making sure the compatibility 
is there) is partly behind that.

IMO, MS officially and actively supporting FOSS OSs on Azure is (based on their 
previous decade or two of rhetoric) a "world shifts on axis" event. If you'd 
asked me 5 years ago if I thought MS would "support Linux" then I'd have given 
a somewhat negative answer. But it's happened - so why the hell not have a 
party to celebrate what is effectively apublic admission that MS is actually 
influenced by the market ?


As an aside, does MS provide official images to run, or is it still BYO ? If 
the former, then suddenly it changes the legal situation as well as the 
practical.

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Re: [DNG] Debian is endorsed by Microsoft

[Rainer Weikusat]

Simon Hobson  writes:
> dev1fanboy  wrote:
>
>> So for having our own values we are a "hardcore cult", how dare we
>> voice our opinions or stand up for our values (like anyone else in
>> the free software community, btw). Better yet, let's go back to
>> debian because otherwise we're elitists.
>
> That's not what I said - and if it reads that way then I failed
> articulate my opinion well (wouldn't be the first time).
>
> This is just the latest. There have been a few subjects that have come
> up where the undertone from some participants has been fairly solidly
> along the lines of "if it comes from X then it has to be bad" as
> though it's not possible for X to do anything other than totally bad,
> and do it for malicious reasons. When you get into that state of mind,
> then reasoned discussion is suppressed, and that doesn't promote a
> friendly atmosphere.

In politics, this is called 'a conflict of interest' and "he who pays
the piper calls the tune" (or "Wes' Brot ich fress des' Lied ich sing" in
German) ought to be old enough to demonstrate that concerns about that
weren't recently invented by 'evil Linux zealots' in order to denigrate
all the good deeds of "Look sharp enough! The soft spot is surely hard
to see but there" angelic beings.

Actually, this whole unholy mixture of religious terms with technical
issues is an inventing of the company which wants its salesreps to be
called 'evanglists' for surely entirely a-religious reasons ...
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Re: [DNG] Debian is endorsed by Microsoft

[Didier Kryn]

Le 21/01/2016 13:08, Simon Hobson a écrit :

What if we s/Microsoft/Rackspace/
(you can use pretty well any hosting outfit really)
The basic underlying thing that this announcement shows is that ${company} now 
supports ${OS} on it's hosting platform. Yes, the sole reason they are doing it 
where ${OS}==Debian is because they think there's money to be made from it. I 
think you'll find that most of the hosting outfits are in it to make money - 
sorry if the idea that someone is allowed to make a profit upsets some 
sensitive types.


I don't know for Rackspace. But MS has a specific log of trying to 
kill FOSS and specifically Linux, by *all means*, including technical 
locking and abuse of law. I haven't seen any sign they're going to give 
up anytime soon on that fight, and I don't think here is such a sign: 
they earn a lot of profit and the little more they can gain with Linux 
on Azure is completely negligible in comparison with the strategic goal 
of killing Linux.


Maybe MS haven't any legal means to forbid their employees to work 
for Linux during their free time. Otherwise, they have other reasons to 
tolerate it.


Didier

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Re: [DNG] Debian is endorsed by Microsoft

[Mitt Green]

As long as this made some impact, I'd like
to point out that, in my opinion,
'tis not bad when particular people
work in particular companies, while
having a part time job in other projects.
Linux, GNU and their childer should not
be affiliated with companies such as Microsoft.
Microsoft has different market, their aims
are far from, let me say, ours. They care about shiny
stupid things like that user interface, they care about money,
how hard it would be for you if you use a pirate copy,
they don't have a particular philosophy, they don't care
about code quality at the end of the day.
And what's more important, they don't give a little flying
piece of you know what about what users want.

It seems to me that big corporations are evil nowadays.
Back then, there were HP, IBM and Bell Labs that invented
different and important software galore. Or maybe it was
because they were working on Unix?

GNU and Linux do not need outer control.


They are always free to make their own Linux
(as they already do, right?), will this also
mean that free software had won or not, 
doesn't really matter. It is already winning
on server market, in TOP500 lists, where
Windows is represented by only one machine.


I would still like to thank Microsoft,
because if their Windows 8 was working for me
without three BSODs in six months, I'd never be here.

‎
Sorry for the long rant,


// Mitt
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Re: [DNG] Debian is endorsed by Microsoft

[Clarke Sideroad]

On 21/01/16 08:21 AM, Marlon Nunes wrote:

On 2016-01-21 09:32, KatolaZ wrote:

On Thu, Jan 21, 2016 at 12:08:19PM +, Simon Hobson wrote:

KatolaZ  wrote:

> Well, not everybody pays his bills developing open source software,
> but if I were a Debian developer, who had adhered to the debian 
Social

> Contract [1], I would find it difficult to organise a fest to
> celebrate Microsoft offering Debian as an option on its
> azure-whatever. Call me a hippy, if you want, but I do see some
> incoherence there.

What if we s/Microsoft/Rackspace/
(you can use pretty well any hosting outfit really)
The basic underlying thing that this announcement shows is that 
${company} now supports ${OS} on it's hosting platform. Yes, the 
sole reason they are doing it where ${OS}==Debian is because they 
think there's money to be made from it. I think you'll find that 
most of the hosting outfits are in it to make money - sorry if the 
idea that someone is allowed to make a profit upsets some sensitive 
types.




I have never had problems with people making money out of Free
Software. I paid bills for several years in that way. And also Richard
Stallman himself has done the same, just to make a notable example.

Only, I have never seen a party organised to celebrate, say,
DigitalOcean (replace it with whatever other provider you have in
mind) supporting Debian Jessie. The real support to GNU/Linux and
Debian has come from silent hackers. That's why I get suspicious when
trumpets start blowing "Linux" or "Debian", especially if the one who
blows them is a corporate which makes money prevalently with
closed-source software, and has done all was in its power to denigrate
Free and Open Source Software in the last 15 years.

[cut]



Whether supporting Debian on Azure is just logical, or there's an 
ulterior motive, it's happened and we don't know which reason it is. 
What I am sure about though is that talking as though there's 
nothing MS, RH, and certain others do that isn't driven by some "bad 
intention" sends out a bad message that is off-putting to some and 
plays into the hands of others.
I'm just suggesting that sometimes, reading this list is like being 
at an evangelical meeting of some hardcore cult - and that *IS* very 
off-putting to a large number of people.




Sorry, but I can't see any evangelisation taking place here. Just
civilised discussions, implying the expression of opinions which might
diverge, at some point.  If this is off-putting, then you are probably
not used to discussions.

My opinion is that whatever comes from a corporate is to be considered
as potentially harmful, for the simple reason that the natural
(obvious and correct) aim of corporates is to make money for
themselves, not to help hackers make their own dreams happen. This is
not an evangelical message. It's just one opinion, that you can accept
or reject, but would hardly be able to change without substantial
evidence.

My2Cents

KatolaZ


+1



Most of the computers I have to lay my hands on are desktops or 
workstations running some form of M$ Windows, that is my reality.
In the world in which we live it has been changed enough by GNU/Linux, 
that Microsoft openly admits Linux into "their" space, now that is IMHO 
good, they really didn't have a choice.


I am bothered by the historical view that every one who shakes hands 
with Microsoft seems at best to come away missing a few fingers, and 
that list is long.


I personally have been a Linux user since 1997 and switched to Debian 
around the turn of the Century after I had found Redhat was limiting my 
choices and I had bounced between distros for a while.


In a sense I have a foot in both camps.

That Debian has been perverted so far from its original path and is 
running counter to its reason for being as envisioned by the late Ian 
Murdock makes me sick to my stomach.


Long live Devuan!

Clarke

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Re: [DNG] Debian is endorsed by Microsoft

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 15:46:55 +0100, Didier wrote in message 
<56a0ef5f.3050...@in2p3.fr>:

> Le 21/01/2016 13:08, Simon Hobson a écrit :
> > What if we s/Microsoft/Rackspace/
> > (you can use pretty well any hosting outfit really)
> > The basic underlying thing that this announcement shows is that
> > ${company} now supports ${OS} on it's hosting platform. Yes, the
> > sole reason they are doing it where ${OS}==Debian is because they
> > think there's money to be made from it. I think you'll find that
> > most of the hosting outfits are in it to make money - sorry if the
> > idea that someone is allowed to make a profit upsets some sensitive
> > types.
> 
>  I don't know for Rackspace. 

..learn ;o):
http://www.groklaw.net/search.php?query=Rackspace+=phrase===0=all=0=search

> But MS has a specific log of trying to kill FOSS and specifically
> Linux, by *all means*, including technical locking and abuse of law.

..drumroll please, _I_ ;o) suggested we put "Microsoft Litigation" here:
http://www.groklaw.net/staticpages/index.php?page=2005010107100653
aaand on the left hand stortcut menu, where it has gained an extra 
"s" since "my post-Groklaw" litigation took off. 

..the _appearant_ importance of #550,000 over rounder figures like
#500,000, #600,000, #700,000, #800,000 etc in e.g.
https://www.debian.org/News/weekly/2015/08/index.en.html#newdpn 
also have me doubt the other "Once upon a time"-tales of "Microsoft 
support of Debian 8 only" and "only since March 2015" etc that I 
see here. 

..the US 5 M$ Microsoft reported spending on "combating computer
viruses" to the SEC for Q3-2003 and the US 106M$ they squirmed
away to their TSG etc proxy litigation in that same SEC filing for
that same Q3-2003 quarter, speaks volumes of their intentions, 
is why we said "Always, Always, Always Follow The Money." ;o) 
http://www.groklaw.net/staticpages/index.php?page=20030831174259231

> I haven't seen any sign they're going to give up anytime soon on that
> fight, and I don't think here is such a sign: they earn a lot of
> profit and the little more they can gain with Linux on Azure is
> completely negligible in comparison with the strategic goal of
> killing Linux.
> 
>  Maybe MS haven't any legal means to forbid their employees to
> work for Linux during their free time. Otherwise, they have other
> reasons to tolerate it.

..such "tolerance" is done mostly "to know thy enemy", it's also
quite handy for luring in e.g. patent litigation poisons, "good" 
design ideas, "binary [in the chemical warfare sense] poisons" 
etc tools to scuttle e.g. GNU, Debian etc Linux, e.g. by telling 
e.g. our dear Lennart tall stories about "How the War on Terror 
Desperately Needs Secret National Security Backdoors in Linux" 
etc.  Etc.  Explains their zeal, etc.


-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.
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Re: [DNG] Debian is endorsed by Microsoft

[Wim]

Hi List,


... Follow the money...

Maybe this is related too?

http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/39546.html

The Linux Foundation quietly dropped community representation. No more
voting rights for simple members.

Looks like a coup to me.

And that begs the question: "Who is Karen Sandler?"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karen_Sandler

Both major law firms she worked for in the past, Gibson, Dunn & Crutcher
and Clifford Chance, have multiple ties to Microsoft. In itself not
remarkable, perhaps, as both have most of the fortune 500 as clients.

One example: Project Tomorrow, see
http://www.tomorrow.org/docs/Gibson-Dunn-laptopdonationrelease.DOC
What's in a name?

Makes me think about a Hillary Clinton remark to someone stating that talks
between the tech industry and US govt about encryption backdoors weren't
exactly successful: "That's not what I've heard"...

Slip of the tongue?

What do you think?

Cheers,


Wim

2016-01-22 0:34 GMT+01:00 Arnt Karlsen :

> On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 15:46:55 +0100, Didier wrote in message
> <56a0ef5f.3050...@in2p3.fr>:
>
> > Le 21/01/2016 13:08, Simon Hobson a écrit :
> > > What if we s/Microsoft/Rackspace/
> > > (you can use pretty well any hosting outfit really)
> > > The basic underlying thing that this announcement shows is that
> > > ${company} now supports ${OS} on it's hosting platform. Yes, the
> > > sole reason they are doing it where ${OS}==Debian is because they
> > > think there's money to be made from it. I think you'll find that
> > > most of the hosting outfits are in it to make money - sorry if the
> > > idea that someone is allowed to make a profit upsets some sensitive
> > > types.
> >
> >  I don't know for Rackspace.
>
> ..learn ;o):
>
> http://www.groklaw.net/search.php?query=Rackspace+=phrase===0=all=0=search
>
> > But MS has a specific log of trying to kill FOSS and specifically
> > Linux, by *all means*, including technical locking and abuse of law.
>
> ..drumroll please, _I_ ;o) suggested we put "Microsoft Litigation" here:
> http://www.groklaw.net/staticpages/index.php?page=2005010107100653
> aaand on the left hand stortcut menu, where it has gained an extra
> "s" since "my post-Groklaw" litigation took off.
>
> ..the _appearant_ importance of #550,000 over rounder figures like
> #500,000, #600,000, #700,000, #800,000 etc in e.g.
> https://www.debian.org/News/weekly/2015/08/index.en.html#newdpn
> also have me doubt the other "Once upon a time"-tales of "Microsoft
> support of Debian 8 only" and "only since March 2015" etc that I
> see here.
>
> ..the US 5 M$ Microsoft reported spending on "combating computer
> viruses" to the SEC for Q3-2003 and the US 106M$ they squirmed
> away to their TSG etc proxy litigation in that same SEC filing for
> that same Q3-2003 quarter, speaks volumes of their intentions,
> is why we said "Always, Always, Always Follow The Money." ;o)
> http://www.groklaw.net/staticpages/index.php?page=20030831174259231
>
> > I haven't seen any sign they're going to give up anytime soon on that
> > fight, and I don't think here is such a sign: they earn a lot of
> > profit and the little more they can gain with Linux on Azure is
> > completely negligible in comparison with the strategic goal of
> > killing Linux.
> >
> >  Maybe MS haven't any legal means to forbid their employees to
> > work for Linux during their free time. Otherwise, they have other
> > reasons to tolerate it.
>
> ..such "tolerance" is done mostly "to know thy enemy", it's also
> quite handy for luring in e.g. patent litigation poisons, "good"
> design ideas, "binary [in the chemical warfare sense] poisons"
> etc tools to scuttle e.g. GNU, Debian etc Linux, e.g. by telling
> e.g. our dear Lennart tall stories about "How the War on Terror
> Desperately Needs Secret National Security Backdoors in Linux"
> etc.  Etc.  Explains their zeal, etc.
>
>
> --
> ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen
> ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
>   Scenarios always come in sets of three:
>   best case, worst case, and just in case.
> ___
> Dng mailing list
> Dng@lists.dyne.org
> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
>
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Re: [DNG] Debian is endorsed by Microsoft

[Steve Litt]

On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 12:08:19 +
Simon Hobson  wrote:

> reading this list is like being at an evangelical meeting of some
> hardcore cult - and that *IS* very off-putting to a large number of
> people.

Both clauses of the preceding partial sentence are absolutely true. And
it goes without saying that I am a minor priest in this cult.

Here's the thing though: If you say in public that you don't use
systemd, that's offputting to 1/3 of the Linux population. A very vocal
and judgmental 1/3. If you actively participate in any plan to provide
an alternative to systemd, you've now offput 2/3 of the Linux
population, and are going to get your name constantly dragged through
the mud.

So the Devuan project has already offput 2/3 of the Linux population.
And although I cannot provide any backup for this opinion, it's my
opinion that most fans of corporate Linux are in the 2/3 we already
offput, and very few real fans of corporate Linux remain in the 1/3 not
yet offput.

So there are few left in our membership and prospective membership who
would be offput by anti-Microsoft assertions.

Meanwhile, the fact that we're Linux at all skews us to have long ago
blown off the Microsoft fans, and makes it likely that a sizeable
portion of us have very anti-Microsoft opinions, especially those who
have been in Linux long enough to remember the Halloween Documents,
Microsoft's Halloween Code, Microsoft execs Mundie and Allchin's whines
to congress to make GPL illegal, and Microsoft's generous license fees
paid to Linux patent troll SCO, which enabled SCO to randomly sue Linux
users for several more years.

Bottom line, we long ago blew off most of those who would have found
our, or at least my, way of phrasing things offputting.

We all hope there will come a time when Devuan becomes a plurality
force in the world of Linux. Such an eventuality is no less probable
than was Linux's takeover of everything but the desktop, if that
probability were predicted in the 1990's. And if you look at Linux
promotion in the 1990's, it was very cultish within, and very
offputting to fans of corporate computing or even those who believed
technology choice to be a meritocracy.

And when Devuan becomes such a plurality, having won the war for the
hearts and minds of those having strong believes concerning software
choice and modularity, we'll tone down our rhetoric to become more
inclusive of meritocracy believers and all but the most hard-core
corporatists. But it's too early for that now: Right now our job is to
inspire strong beliefs leading to strong development, testing,
documentation and advocacy, and an absolute and constitutional
rejection of systemd.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
January 2016 featured book: Twenty Eight Tales of Troubleshooting
http://www.troubleshooters.com/28


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Re: [DNG] Debian is endorsed by Microsoft

[Steve Litt]

On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 14:41:40 +
Simon Hobson  wrote:

> dev1fanboy  wrote:
> 
> > So for having our own values we are a "hardcore cult", how dare we
> > voice our opinions or stand up for our values (like anyone else in
> > the free software community, btw). Better yet, let's go back to
> > debian because otherwise we're elitists.
> 
> That's not what I said - and if it reads that way then I failed
> articulate my opinion well (wouldn't be the first time).
> 
> This is just the latest. There have been a few subjects that have
> come up where the undertone from some participants has been fairly
> solidly along the lines of "if it comes from X then it has to be bad"
> as though it's not possible for X to do anything other than totally
> bad, and do it for malicious reasons. When you get into that state of
> mind, then reasoned discussion is suppressed, and that doesn't
> promote a friendly atmosphere.

In the preceding paragraph, Simon has almost exactly described my
writings on this list, and on Debian-user earlier. It's my personal
belief that if it comes from Redhat, and perhaps other entities such
as FreeDesktop, it's almost certain to be both bad and malicious. I
can't prove this, because I've never been in a top level strategy
meeting for either Redhat or Freedesktop. I doubt anyone on this list
can prove my belief false, because they haven't been in every single
high level strategy meeting plus all back channel communications for
these entities.

What I *can* do is make a very plausible showing for Red Hat's motive,
means and opportunity to damage Linux for their own benefit. Motive,
means and opportunity don't prove guilt, but they go a long way to show
likelihood. And they go a long way in legitimizing the accusation, and
elevating the accuser from irrational conspiracy theorist to a
legitimate questioner of truth. Which to me inspires reasoned
discussion rather than suppressing it.

Let's briefly discuss "reasoned discussion". It's my belief that
"reasoned discussion" means different things in different venues. On
the Devuan list, reasoned discussion requires not only technology, but
also examination of motivation. The reason is simple: If we didn't
consider motivation, we'd always be aiming to be able to depoetterize
*today's* Linux, we'd always be chasing the tail of the latest
systemd architectural conquest, and we'd never output a usable product.

Once we consider motivation, we're better able to guess where Linux
will be in six months, and aim for that spot rather than today's spot.
We're much more likely to hit the target when we consider motivation.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
January 2016 featured book: Twenty Eight Tales of Troubleshooting
http://www.troubleshooters.com/28


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Re: [DNG] Debian is endorsed by Microsoft

[dev1fanboy]

Not surprising. They already threw a party for Debian 8 (not debian in general, 
but debian 8). 

http://openness.microsoft.com/blog/2015/04/21/microsoft-debian-8-linuxfest/

The ethical break down is enough of a reason for them to throw a party imho.

On Wednesday, January 20, 2016 10:19 PM, Mitt Green  
wrote:
> https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/blog/debian-images-now-available-on-azure/
> 
> Debian will be offered as an endorsed operating system in Azure
> Marketplace.
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[DNG] Debian is endorsed by Microsoft

[Mitt Green]

https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/blog/debian-images-now-available-on-azure/

Debian will be offered as an endorsed operating system in Azure Marketplace.
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