Re: [DNG] Early Days at Bell Labs

[Steve Litt]

Bruce Perens via Dng said on Sun, 23 Jan 2022 12:02:24 -0800

>Busybox is GNU. The fact that FSF doesn't own it is immaterial. I
>developed it for Debian GNU/Linux.

Bruce,

Thanks for developing Busybox!

SteveT

Steve Litt 
Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful
Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Early Days at Bell Labs

[Bruce Perens via Dng]

Busybox is GNU. The fact that FSF doesn't own it is immaterial. I developed
it for Debian GNU/Linux.

On Thu, Jan 20, 2022, 11:07 AM onefang  wrote:

> On 2022-01-20 18:40:13, Antony Stone wrote:
> > On Thursday 20 January 2022 at 17:24:46, Peter Duffy wrote:
> >
> > > On Sun, 2022-01-16 at 04:12 -0500, Steve Litt wrote:
> > > > Hi all,
> > > >
> > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECCr_KFl41E
> > >
> > > Thanks for the link to that - brilliant talk. I've always thought that
> > > Brian Kernighan himself was the great communicator in the UNIX group -
> I
> > > wonder whether "The C Programming Language" and "The Unix Programming
> > > Environment" would have happened without his obvious ability to take
> > > abstruse and difficult material and make it accessible.
> > >
> > > If I had one incredibly tiny nit to pick, it would be that he didn't
> > > mention GNU (it appeared once in the slide showing Linus' original
> > > email). Without GNU, it's reasonable to suppose that linux wouldn't
> have
> > > happened.
> >
> > I disagree with "it's reasonable to suppose that".
> >
> > Linus Torvalds was building a system for himself, partly (I believe)
> because
> > he liked Unix but couldn't afford a Unix system of his own, and
> therefore he
> > was of course going to build it using as much free (of charge) software
> as he
> > could.
> >
> > That meant GNU.
> >
> > I think the Unix philosophy and design principles are beautiful, and
> formed
> > the basis of an amazingly efficient system, but some of those principles
> are
> > embodied in Linux and some are embodied in GNU (for example, devices as
> files,
> > and pipes, in the first; and tools such as tr, cut, grep in the second),
> so
> > these days we can't really separate the two - Linux is nothing without
> GNU
> > (although the reverse is not true).
>
> It's entirely possible to have a Linux OS without any GNU software.
> Using such things as busybox and toybox for example.
>
> --
> A big old stinking pile of genius that no one wants
> coz there are too many silver coated monkeys in the world.
> ___
> Dng mailing list
> Dng@lists.dyne.org
> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
>
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Early Days at Bell Labs

[Lars Noodén via Dng]

On 1/21/22 22:26, Hendrik Boom wrote:
[snip]

Whatever the licence then, it seems to have ended up with a sufficiently
free licence for Intel to put a copy of it in the management engine in
their CPUs for the last decade or so *without informing Tannenbaum*.
Tannenbaum was miffed; he said the licence allowed this, but he would
have liked to have been informed.


That move probably makes MINIX the most widely used operating system
around these days:

https://www.networkworld.com/article/3236064/minix-the-most-popular-os-in-the-world-thanks-to-intel.html

There is at least one recorded lecture by Andrew Tannenbaum about MINIX
at the BSD conferences because it mainly has a NetBSD userspace.

/Lars
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Early Days at Bell Labs

[d...@d404.nl]

On 21-01-2022 21:26, Hendrik Boom wrote:

On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 02:46:39PM +1100, terryc wrote:

On Thu, 20 Jan 2022 13:25:50 -0500
Hendrik Boom  wrote:


On Thu, Jan 20, 2022 at 06:40:13PM +0100, Antony Stone wrote:

On Thursday 20 January 2022 at 17:24:46, Peter Duffy wrote:
   

On Sun, 2022-01-16 at 04:12 -0500, Steve Litt wrote:

Hi all,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECCr_KFl41E

Thanks for the link to that - brilliant talk. I've always thought
that Brian Kernighan himself was the great communicator in the
UNIX group - I wonder whether "The C Programming Language" and
"The Unix Programming Environment" would have happened without
his obvious ability to take abstruse and difficult material and
make it accessible.

If I had one incredibly tiny nit to pick, it would be that he
didn't mention GNU (it appeared once in the slide showing Linus'
original email). Without GNU, it's reasonable to suppose that
linux wouldn't have happened.

I disagree with "it's reasonable to suppose that".

Linus Torvalds was building a system for himself, partly (I
believe) because he liked Unix but couldn't afford a Unix system of
his own, and therefore he was of course going to build it using as
much free (of charge) software as he could.

That meant GNU.

I think the Unix philosophy and design principles are beautiful,
and formed the basis of an amazingly efficient system, but some of
those principles are embodied in Linux and some are embodied in GNU
(for example, devices as files, and pipes, in the first; and tools
such as tr, cut, grep in the second), so these days we can't really
separate the two - Linux is nothing without GNU (although the
reverse is not true).

And don't forget Minix, the system he used while developing his
kernel.

Didn't Linus start what became Linux because Minix was only 286 capable
and was not going to be upgraded and Linux wanted something that
would run on 386 cpus.

I think there was also a licensing issue involved in modifying Minix.

As far as I know, minix came from Andrew Tannenbaum at the Free University
of Amsterdam.and maybe also from the students in an OS course.

I don't know the details, but it was at one point sold commercially, although 
its main purpose was for teaching.

Whatever the licence then, it seems to have ended up with a sufficiently
free licence for Intel to put a copy of it in the management engine in
their CPUs for the last decade or so *without informing Tannenbaum*.
Tannenbaum was miffed; he said the licence allowed this, but he would
have liked to have been informed.

-- hendrik
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng


I still do have the book and floppy disk from the 1.0 version somewhere 
in storage. At the time it had a restrictive license and I had Sun and 
HP systems to play with at work so I have not done much with Minix . 
Later on I moved to Linux and forgot about Minix until I learned that 
Intel implemented Minix in their processors ME which was a big surprise 
(Indeed even for Tannenbaum!).


Grtz.

Nick


___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Early Days at Bell Labs

[Hendrik Boom]

On Fri, Jan 21, 2022 at 02:46:39PM +1100, terryc wrote:
> On Thu, 20 Jan 2022 13:25:50 -0500
> Hendrik Boom  wrote:
> 
> > On Thu, Jan 20, 2022 at 06:40:13PM +0100, Antony Stone wrote:
> > > On Thursday 20 January 2022 at 17:24:46, Peter Duffy wrote:
> > >   
> > > > On Sun, 2022-01-16 at 04:12 -0500, Steve Litt wrote:  
> > > > > Hi all,
> > > > > 
> > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECCr_KFl41E  
> > > >
> > > > Thanks for the link to that - brilliant talk. I've always thought
> > > > that Brian Kernighan himself was the great communicator in the
> > > > UNIX group - I wonder whether "The C Programming Language" and
> > > > "The Unix Programming Environment" would have happened without
> > > > his obvious ability to take abstruse and difficult material and
> > > > make it accessible.
> > > > 
> > > > If I had one incredibly tiny nit to pick, it would be that he
> > > > didn't mention GNU (it appeared once in the slide showing Linus'
> > > > original email). Without GNU, it's reasonable to suppose that
> > > > linux wouldn't have happened.  
> > > 
> > > I disagree with "it's reasonable to suppose that".
> > > 
> > > Linus Torvalds was building a system for himself, partly (I
> > > believe) because he liked Unix but couldn't afford a Unix system of
> > > his own, and therefore he was of course going to build it using as
> > > much free (of charge) software as he could.
> > > 
> > > That meant GNU.
> > > 
> > > I think the Unix philosophy and design principles are beautiful,
> > > and formed the basis of an amazingly efficient system, but some of
> > > those principles are embodied in Linux and some are embodied in GNU
> > > (for example, devices as files, and pipes, in the first; and tools
> > > such as tr, cut, grep in the second), so these days we can't really
> > > separate the two - Linux is nothing without GNU (although the
> > > reverse is not true).  
> > 
> > And don't forget Minix, the system he used while developing his
> > kernel.
> 
> Didn't Linus start what became Linux because Minix was only 286 capable
> and was not going to be upgraded and Linux wanted something that
> would run on 386 cpus.
> 
> I think there was also a licensing issue involved in modifying Minix.

As far as I know, minix came from Andrew Tannenbaum at the Free University
of Amsterdam.and maybe also from the students in an OS course.

I don't know the details, but it was at one point sold commercially, although 
its main purpose was for teaching.

Whatever the licence then, it seems to have ended up with a sufficiently
free licence for Intel to put a copy of it in the management engine in
their CPUs for the last decade or so *without informing Tannenbaum*.
Tannenbaum was miffed; he said the licence allowed this, but he would
have liked to have been informed.

-- hendrik
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Early Days at Bell Labs

[Steve Litt]

>
>On Sun, 2022-01-16 at 04:12 -0500, Steve Litt wrote:
>> Hi all,
>> 
>> This was discussed on the devuan-offtopic IRC channel, so I watched
>> the video:
>> 
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECCr_KFl41E
>> 
>> It's Brian Kernighan discussing the formation of Unix, starting from
>> the back story of the creation of Bell Labs, including predecessors
>> CTSS and Multics, and C predecessors BCPL which was modified to
>> become B, and why Dennis Richie added types to B to make C.
>> 
>> This video really hits its stride when Kernighan discusses piping and
>> redirection, and the ease of creating wonderful things out of small
>> parts that, and Kernighan used these words, "do one thing and do it
>> well."
>> 
>> I felt like I was watching a fellow traveller who respected
>> simplicity, and creating powerful systems from simple tools. It was
>> a much needed reaffirmation for a guy who, when he's not with his
>> Devuan buddies, endures countless taunts for not using the
>> pulseaudio-mandated Zoom, or a Mac, or even Windows. They call me a
>> tinkerer, even though my user interface has changed not one bit in
>> seven years (Openbox with dmenu and UMENU2). Kind of ironic
>> considering the changes their beloved Gnome and KDE have put them
>> through during that time.
>> 
>> This video is such a breath of fresh air in a world worshipping
>> Gates, Jobs and Poettering. I suggest you watch it. I think it will
>> bring a smile to your face.
>> 
>> SteveT
>> 


Peter Duffy said on Thu, 20 Jan 2022 16:24:46 +

>Thanks for the link to that - brilliant talk. I've always thought that
>Brian Kernighan himself was the great communicator in the UNIX group -
>I wonder whether "The C Programming Language" and "The Unix Programming
>Environment" would have happened without his obvious ability to take
>abstruse and difficult material and make it accessible. 

I doubt whether these things would have happeneed without Brian
Kernighan. For a few years, "The C Programming Language" was the C
manual and about the only way you could learn C. Years later others
wrote books better suited to learning C, but I think "The C Programming
Language" remained the manual.

>
>If I had one incredibly tiny nit to pick, it would be that he didn't
>mention GNU (it appeared once in the slide showing Linus' original
>email). 

I noticed that too. He talked about cooperative cultures, and didn't
mention Stallman, who rebelled and wrote the manifesto after his
cooperative culture broke down.

> Without GNU, it's reasonable to suppose that linux wouldn't
>have happened. 

I've said that many times. The fact that (practically speaking) others
couldn't profit from selling a contributor's code, thus making the
contributor a "sucker", was a powerful incentive in the early days of
developers neither selling their code nor getting paid to write their
code. The same copyleft that seems intrusive to many of today's
developers was the perfect license for the 1990's. I still license some
of my stuff GPL2.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful
Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Early Days at Bell Labs

[Alexa _video_game via Dng]

Thank to Steve Litt, thank to all for these discussions.
I'm a simple GNU/Linux user, without experience, just a free software
lover. I start to know to use PC since 1996.
I grew up knowing only '95, only his suites, spending a lot on licenses. I
accidentally learned about GNU / Linux from a friend of the IT sector, but
I was indifferent anyway. "I had everything", everything was available, why
use other systems for more on the command line "?
Exacerbated by the dictatorship of licenses, of the obligations to update
systems, I began to rebel.
Only after 2007 did I begin to get to know this new world and I immediately
appreciated it. Freedom, STABILITY, it was like living on another planet.
Not having the right mindset for command lines, for syntax, I limited
myself to simple program installation commands and so on. Only two years
ago I knew Devuan (I only used Debian) casually, reading an article on free
software, an article in which they interviewed the italian Veteran Unix
Admin, Franco Lanza (nextime), and another world opened up: I was not aware
of the systemd big problem and the "poettering philosophy" and this it made
me feel bad. I understand that you are on the right side!
The soul is to make known, to appreciate freedom, but you find yourself in
front of indifferent people who are now used to monopoly. If freedom is not
taught by the state, which demands it in institutions, schools,
universities, there is little to do. Here, in Italy, the education sector
is now in the hands of a monopoly. The Municipality of Venice (Italy), for
example, had LibreOffice as its system but, three years ago, it decided to
eliminate Libre and adopt the bad monopoly on its intranet. Dejecting.
What's the deal underneath?
Okay, I've talked a lot, I hope you have had pleasure in hearing a
testimony. Good continuation to all and see again :-)

Federico

Il giorno ven 21 gen 2022 alle ore 12:20 . via Dng  ha
scritto:

> On 1/21/22 06:00, terryc  wrote:
> > Didn't Linus start what became Linux because Minix was only 286 capable
> > and was not going to be upgraded and Linux wanted something that
> > would run on 386 cpus.
> >
> > I think there was also a licensing issue involved in modifying Minix.
>
>
> Minix exemplified Andy Tanenbaum's views on microkernels. Torvalds was
> one of Tanenbaum's students, but not so committed to microkernels, so he
> took his own approach with Linux.
>
> Don't know about licensing, but the Minix source code was included as
> part of Tanenbaum's book.
>
> -bobmon
>
>
> ___
> Dng mailing list
> Dng@lists.dyne.org
> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
>
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Early Days at Bell Labs

[. via Dng]

Thanks for the correction.  Here's a Wikipedia link to the 
"Tanenbaum-Torvalds debate":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanenbaum%E2%80%93Torvalds_debate

-bobmon



On 1/21/22 08:12, dng-requ...@lists.dyne.org wrote:

On 1/21/22 06:00, terryc  wrote:

Didn't Linus start what became Linux because Minix was only 286 capable
and was not going to be upgraded and Linux wanted something that
would run on 386 cpus.

I think there was also a licensing issue involved in modifying Minix.

Minix exemplified Andy Tanenbaum's views on microkernels. Torvalds was
one of Tanenbaum's students, but not so committed to microkernels, so he
took his own approach with Linux.

Don't know about licensing, but the Minix source code was included as
part of Tanenbaum's book.

-bobmon

Nope.

Tanenbaum taught at  Vrije Universiteit Amsterdam, Torvalds studied at 
University of Helsinki.




--
-Robert Montante, Ph.D.
 Department of Mathematical and Digital Sciences
 Bloomsburg Universitybobmon AT bloomu DOT edu
 Bloomsburg, PA  17815prof.montante AT gmail DOT com
 phone: 570-389-4624  montcs.bloomu.edu/~bobmon/
--
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Early Days at Bell Labs

[. via Dng]

On 1/21/22 06:00, terryc  wrote:

Didn't Linus start what became Linux because Minix was only 286 capable
and was not going to be upgraded and Linux wanted something that
would run on 386 cpus.

I think there was also a licensing issue involved in modifying Minix.



Minix exemplified Andy Tanenbaum's views on microkernels. Torvalds was 
one of Tanenbaum's students, but not so committed to microkernels, so he 
took his own approach with Linux.


Don't know about licensing, but the Minix source code was included as 
part of Tanenbaum's book.


-bobmon


___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Early Days at Bell Labs

[terryc]

On Thu, 20 Jan 2022 13:25:50 -0500
Hendrik Boom  wrote:

> On Thu, Jan 20, 2022 at 06:40:13PM +0100, Antony Stone wrote:
> > On Thursday 20 January 2022 at 17:24:46, Peter Duffy wrote:
> >   
> > > On Sun, 2022-01-16 at 04:12 -0500, Steve Litt wrote:  
> > > > Hi all,
> > > > 
> > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECCr_KFl41E  
> > >
> > > Thanks for the link to that - brilliant talk. I've always thought
> > > that Brian Kernighan himself was the great communicator in the
> > > UNIX group - I wonder whether "The C Programming Language" and
> > > "The Unix Programming Environment" would have happened without
> > > his obvious ability to take abstruse and difficult material and
> > > make it accessible.
> > > 
> > > If I had one incredibly tiny nit to pick, it would be that he
> > > didn't mention GNU (it appeared once in the slide showing Linus'
> > > original email). Without GNU, it's reasonable to suppose that
> > > linux wouldn't have happened.  
> > 
> > I disagree with "it's reasonable to suppose that".
> > 
> > Linus Torvalds was building a system for himself, partly (I
> > believe) because he liked Unix but couldn't afford a Unix system of
> > his own, and therefore he was of course going to build it using as
> > much free (of charge) software as he could.
> > 
> > That meant GNU.
> > 
> > I think the Unix philosophy and design principles are beautiful,
> > and formed the basis of an amazingly efficient system, but some of
> > those principles are embodied in Linux and some are embodied in GNU
> > (for example, devices as files, and pipes, in the first; and tools
> > such as tr, cut, grep in the second), so these days we can't really
> > separate the two - Linux is nothing without GNU (although the
> > reverse is not true).  
> 
> And don't forget Minix, the system he used while developing his
> kernel.

Didn't Linus start what became Linux because Minix was only 286 capable
and was not going to be upgraded and Linux wanted something that
would run on 386 cpus.

I think there was also a licensing issue involved in modifying Minix.
>
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Early Days at Bell Labs

[onefang]

On 2022-01-20 18:40:13, Antony Stone wrote:
> On Thursday 20 January 2022 at 17:24:46, Peter Duffy wrote:
> 
> > On Sun, 2022-01-16 at 04:12 -0500, Steve Litt wrote:
> > > Hi all,
> > > 
> > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECCr_KFl41E
> >
> > Thanks for the link to that - brilliant talk. I've always thought that
> > Brian Kernighan himself was the great communicator in the UNIX group - I
> > wonder whether "The C Programming Language" and "The Unix Programming
> > Environment" would have happened without his obvious ability to take
> > abstruse and difficult material and make it accessible.
> > 
> > If I had one incredibly tiny nit to pick, it would be that he didn't
> > mention GNU (it appeared once in the slide showing Linus' original
> > email). Without GNU, it's reasonable to suppose that linux wouldn't have
> > happened.
> 
> I disagree with "it's reasonable to suppose that".
> 
> Linus Torvalds was building a system for himself, partly (I believe) because 
> he liked Unix but couldn't afford a Unix system of his own, and therefore he 
> was of course going to build it using as much free (of charge) software as he 
> could.
> 
> That meant GNU.
> 
> I think the Unix philosophy and design principles are beautiful, and formed 
> the basis of an amazingly efficient system, but some of those principles are 
> embodied in Linux and some are embodied in GNU (for example, devices as 
> files, 
> and pipes, in the first; and tools such as tr, cut, grep in the second), so 
> these days we can't really separate the two - Linux is nothing without GNU 
> (although the reverse is not true).

It's entirely possible to have a Linux OS without any GNU software. 
Using such things as busybox and toybox for example.

-- 
A big old stinking pile of genius that no one wants
coz there are too many silver coated monkeys in the world.
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Early Days at Bell Labs

[Hendrik Boom]

On Thu, Jan 20, 2022 at 06:40:13PM +0100, Antony Stone wrote:
> On Thursday 20 January 2022 at 17:24:46, Peter Duffy wrote:
> 
> > On Sun, 2022-01-16 at 04:12 -0500, Steve Litt wrote:
> > > Hi all,
> > > 
> > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECCr_KFl41E
> >
> > Thanks for the link to that - brilliant talk. I've always thought that
> > Brian Kernighan himself was the great communicator in the UNIX group - I
> > wonder whether "The C Programming Language" and "The Unix Programming
> > Environment" would have happened without his obvious ability to take
> > abstruse and difficult material and make it accessible.
> > 
> > If I had one incredibly tiny nit to pick, it would be that he didn't
> > mention GNU (it appeared once in the slide showing Linus' original
> > email). Without GNU, it's reasonable to suppose that linux wouldn't have
> > happened.
> 
> I disagree with "it's reasonable to suppose that".
> 
> Linus Torvalds was building a system for himself, partly (I believe) because 
> he liked Unix but couldn't afford a Unix system of his own, and therefore he 
> was of course going to build it using as much free (of charge) software as he 
> could.
> 
> That meant GNU.
> 
> I think the Unix philosophy and design principles are beautiful, and formed 
> the basis of an amazingly efficient system, but some of those principles are 
> embodied in Linux and some are embodied in GNU (for example, devices as 
> files, 
> and pipes, in the first; and tools such as tr, cut, grep in the second), so 
> these days we can't really separate the two - Linux is nothing without GNU 
> (although the reverse is not true).

And don't forget Minix, the system he used while developing his kernel.

-- hendrik
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Early Days at Bell Labs

[Antony Stone]

On Thursday 20 January 2022 at 17:24:46, Peter Duffy wrote:

> On Sun, 2022-01-16 at 04:12 -0500, Steve Litt wrote:
> > Hi all,
> > 
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECCr_KFl41E
>
> Thanks for the link to that - brilliant talk. I've always thought that
> Brian Kernighan himself was the great communicator in the UNIX group - I
> wonder whether "The C Programming Language" and "The Unix Programming
> Environment" would have happened without his obvious ability to take
> abstruse and difficult material and make it accessible.
> 
> If I had one incredibly tiny nit to pick, it would be that he didn't
> mention GNU (it appeared once in the slide showing Linus' original
> email). Without GNU, it's reasonable to suppose that linux wouldn't have
> happened.

I disagree with "it's reasonable to suppose that".

Linus Torvalds was building a system for himself, partly (I believe) because 
he liked Unix but couldn't afford a Unix system of his own, and therefore he 
was of course going to build it using as much free (of charge) software as he 
could.

That meant GNU.

I think the Unix philosophy and design principles are beautiful, and formed 
the basis of an amazingly efficient system, but some of those principles are 
embodied in Linux and some are embodied in GNU (for example, devices as files, 
and pipes, in the first; and tools such as tr, cut, grep in the second), so 
these days we can't really separate the two - Linux is nothing without GNU 
(although the reverse is not true).


Antony.

-- 
Douglas was one of those writers who honourably failed to get anywhere with 
'weekending'.  It put a premium on people who could write things that lasted 
thirty seconds, and Douglas was incapable of writing a single sentence that 
lasted less than thirty seconds.

 - Geoffrey Perkins, about Douglas Adams

   Please reply to the list;
 please *don't* CC me.
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Early Days at Bell Labs

[Peter Duffy]

Thanks for the link to that - brilliant talk. I've always thought that
Brian Kernighan himself was the great communicator in the UNIX group - I
wonder whether "The C Programming Language" and "The Unix Programming
Environment" would have happened without his obvious ability to take
abstruse and difficult material and make it accessible. 

If I had one incredibly tiny nit to pick, it would be that he didn't
mention GNU (it appeared once in the slide showing Linus' original
email). Without GNU, it's reasonable to suppose that linux wouldn't have
happened. 


On Sun, 2022-01-16 at 04:12 -0500, Steve Litt wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> This was discussed on the devuan-offtopic IRC channel, so I watched the
> video:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECCr_KFl41E
> 
> It's Brian Kernighan discussing the formation of Unix, starting from
> the back story of the creation of Bell Labs, including predecessors
> CTSS and Multics, and C predecessors BCPL which was modified to become
> B, and why Dennis Richie added types to B to make C.
> 
> This video really hits its stride when Kernighan discusses piping and
> redirection, and the ease of creating wonderful things out of small
> parts that, and Kernighan used these words, "do one thing and do it
> well."
> 
> I felt like I was watching a fellow traveller who respected simplicity,
> and creating powerful systems from simple tools. It was a much needed
> reaffirmation for a guy who, when he's not with his Devuan buddies,
> endures countless taunts for not using the pulseaudio-mandated Zoom, or
> a Mac, or even Windows. They call me a tinkerer, even though my user
> interface has changed not one bit in seven years (Openbox with dmenu
> and UMENU2). Kind of ironic considering the changes their beloved Gnome
> and KDE have put them through during that time.
> 
> This video is such a breath of fresh air in a world worshipping Gates,
> Jobs and Poettering. I suggest you watch it. I think it will bring a
> smile to your face.
> 
> SteveT
> 
> Steve Litt 
> Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful
> Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques
> ___
> Dng mailing list
> Dng@lists.dyne.org
> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng


___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Early Days at Bell Labs - Youtube, the systemd of video

[al3xu5 via Dng]

Sun, 16 Jan 2022 11:56:51 + - ael via Dng :

> On Sun, Jan 16, 2022 at 04:12:44AM -0500, Steve Litt wrote:
> > 
> > This was discussed on the devuan-offtopic IRC channel, so I watched the
> > video:
> > 
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECCr_KFl41E  
> 
> But youtube has become impossible to watch with hideous intrusive
> deviant advertisements... And google seem to have found a way to make
> youtube-dl hopelessly slow. Not to mention that the YT viewer is
> dire: you can't slow down or speed up etc like, say, mpv.
> 
> A bit off topic, I know...
> 
> Does anyone know of a way of accessing youtube nowadays without wasting
> huge amounts of time and losing the will to live and all concentration
> before getting to the proper topic (etc)?

Give TorBrowser a try.

Regards
al3xu5

-- 
Say NO to copyright, patents, trademarks and industrial design
restrictions!


Public GPG/PGP key: 8FC2 3121 2803 86E9 F7D8  B624 DA50 835B 2624 A36B


pgpROL9H8FJ8r.pgp
Description: Firma digitale OpenPGP
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Early Days at Bell Labs - Youtube, the systemd of video

[d...@d404.nl]

On 16-01-2022 15:32, wirelessduck--- via Dng wrote:



On 16 Jan 2022, at 23:38, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp via Dng 
 wrote:


Install umatrix + ublock-origin and that pestilence is gone. Be aware 
that you'll have to fiddle with umatrix to get videos playing.


uMatrix is EOL and the GitHub repository archived a long time ago.

You can achieve similar functionality with just ublock origin with the 
advanced mode dynamic filtering.


https://github.com/gorhill/uBlock/wiki/Dynamic-filtering:-quick-guide 



___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng


On most systems i do not bother to use the advanced mode from uBlock, 
just update your lists regularly. uBlock as browser addon and PiHole as 
dns blocks virtually every ad and even better it blocks the trackers 
from Facebook, Google etc.


Grtz

Nick

___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Early Days at Bell Labs - Youtube, the systemd of video

[Antony Stone]

On Sunday 16 January 2022 at 15:42:13, Maurice McCarthy via Dng wrote:

> Can you block ads on the firewall? On OpenBSD's pf firewall config
> file this pretty much wipes out all ads on youtube.
> 
> table  {8.8.8.8 8.8.4.4}
> table  {2001:4860:4860:: 2001:4860:4860::8844}
> pass in quick to  rdr-to 127.0.0.1
> pass in quick to  rdr-to ::1
> 
> Blocking Google's own DNS servers.

This needs to go where?  On the client machine I want to see YouTube on, or on 
my local caching recursive DNS server?

Are you blocking DNS lookups to Google, or are you saying that the ad content 
itself comes from the same IP addresses (which I know are not "proper servers" 
- it's a geo-diverse network of many many machines, but they could be content 
servers as well as DNS)?

Assuming I do not use Google DNS servers in my client machine's resolv.conf (I 
have a local recursive caching DNS server on my network, with a hints file 
pointing at the root name servers), I don't believe that my client computer 
would ever contact Google's DNS to resolve a machine's name, so I'm puzzled as 
to what traffic actually needs to be blocked.

Thanks for any further info you can provide; it looks like a neat solution :)


Antony.

-- 
Perfection in design is achieved not when there is nothing left to add, but 
rather when there is nothing left to take away.

 - Antoine de Saint-Exupery

   Please reply to the list;
 please *don't* CC me.
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Early Days at Bell Labs - Youtube, the systemd of video

[Maurice McCarthy via Dng]

Can you block ads on the firewall? On OpenBSD's pf firewall config
file this pretty much wipes out all ads on youtube.

table  {8.8.8.8 8.8.4.4}
table  {2001:4860:4860:: 2001:4860:4860::8844}
pass in quick to  rdr-to 127.0.0.1
pass in quick to  rdr-to ::1

Blocking Google's own DNS servers.
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Early Days at Bell Labs - Youtube, the systemd of video

[wirelessduck--- via Dng]

> On 16 Jan 2022, at 23:38, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp via Dng  
> wrote:
> 
> Install umatrix + ublock-origin and that pestilence is gone. Be aware that 
> you'll have to fiddle with umatrix to get videos playing.

uMatrix is EOL and the GitHub repository archived a long time ago.

You can achieve similar functionality with just ublock origin with the advanced 
mode dynamic filtering.

https://github.com/gorhill/uBlock/wiki/Dynamic-filtering:-quick-guide___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Early Days at Bell Labs - Youtube, the systemd of video

[ael via Dng]

On Sun, Jan 16, 2022 at 01:38:52PM +0100, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp via Dng wrote:
> Anno domini 2022 Sun, 16 Jan 11:56:51 +
>  ael via Dng scripsit:
> > But youtube has become impossible to watch with hideous intrusive
> > deviant advertisements... And google seem to have found a way to make
> > youtube-dl hopelessly slow. Not to mention that the YT viewer is
> > dire: you can't slow down or speed up etc like, say, mpv.
> 
> Install umatrix + ublock-origin and that pestilence is gone. Be aware that 
> you'll have to fiddle with umatrix to get videos playing.
> 
> yt-download is gon with the wind. Use a fork  like yt-ldp 
> https://github.com/yt-dlp/yt-dlp - that's what I have in use.

Thank you so much for that. I should have found yt-dlp myself. Just 
tried it and it worked perfectly, at least on one test case.

Wonderful.

ael

___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Early Days at Bell Labs - Youtube, the systemd of video

[terryc]

On Sun, 16 Jan 2022 11:56:51 +
ael via Dng  wrote:

> On Sun, Jan 16, 2022 at 04:12:44AM -0500, Steve Litt wrote:
> > 
> > This was discussed on the devuan-offtopic IRC channel, so I watched
> > the video:
> > 
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECCr_KFl41E  
> 
> But youtube has become impossible to watch with hideous intrusive
> deviant advertisements... And google seem to have found a way to make
> youtube-dl hopelessly slow. Not to mention that the YT viewer is
> dire: you can't slow down or speed up etc like, say, mpv.

Shrug, I've just been using the youtube-dl (in the repository) in a
couple of terminals as I do other stuff and eventually get around to
using vlc to watch them

I've been doing that for only a short while and find I've had to create
a file structure to store them by subject.

Tip, restarting some stuff where it responds '403 forbidden' is
usually successful.

YMMV, but I find that procedure better than purging cookies to get the
one add free 'preview'.

By the time you posted, the subject video had downloaded.
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Early Days at Bell Labs - Youtube, the systemd of video

[Dr. Nikolaus Klepp via Dng]

Anno domini 2022 Sun, 16 Jan 11:56:51 +
 ael via Dng scripsit:
> On Sun, Jan 16, 2022 at 04:12:44AM -0500, Steve Litt wrote:
> >
> > This was discussed on the devuan-offtopic IRC channel, so I watched the
> > video:
> >
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECCr_KFl41E
>
> But youtube has become impossible to watch with hideous intrusive
> deviant advertisements... And google seem to have found a way to make
> youtube-dl hopelessly slow. Not to mention that the YT viewer is
> dire: you can't slow down or speed up etc like, say, mpv.

Install umatrix + ublock-origin and that pestilence is gone. Be aware that 
you'll have to fiddle with umatrix to get videos playing.

yt-download is gon with the wind. Use a fork  like yt-ldp 
https://github.com/yt-dlp/yt-dlp - that's what I have in use.

>
> A bit off topic, I know...
>
> Does anyone know of a way of accessing youtube nowadays without wasting
> huge amounts of time and losing the will to live and all concentration
> before getting to the proper topic (etc)?

No. yt is broken, since "AI" took over.

Nik

>
> ael
>
> ___
> Dng mailing list
> Dng@lists.dyne.org
> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
>



--
Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with 
the NSA, CIA ...
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Early Days at Bell Labs - Youtube, the systemd of video

[ael via Dng]

On Sun, Jan 16, 2022 at 04:12:44AM -0500, Steve Litt wrote:
> 
> This was discussed on the devuan-offtopic IRC channel, so I watched the
> video:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECCr_KFl41E

But youtube has become impossible to watch with hideous intrusive
deviant advertisements... And google seem to have found a way to make
youtube-dl hopelessly slow. Not to mention that the YT viewer is
dire: you can't slow down or speed up etc like, say, mpv.

A bit off topic, I know...

Does anyone know of a way of accessing youtube nowadays without wasting
huge amounts of time and losing the will to live and all concentration
before getting to the proper topic (etc)?

ael

___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

[DNG] Early Days at Bell Labs

[Steve Litt]

Hi all,

This was discussed on the devuan-offtopic IRC channel, so I watched the
video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECCr_KFl41E

It's Brian Kernighan discussing the formation of Unix, starting from
the back story of the creation of Bell Labs, including predecessors
CTSS and Multics, and C predecessors BCPL which was modified to become
B, and why Dennis Richie added types to B to make C.

This video really hits its stride when Kernighan discusses piping and
redirection, and the ease of creating wonderful things out of small
parts that, and Kernighan used these words, "do one thing and do it
well."

I felt like I was watching a fellow traveller who respected simplicity,
and creating powerful systems from simple tools. It was a much needed
reaffirmation for a guy who, when he's not with his Devuan buddies,
endures countless taunts for not using the pulseaudio-mandated Zoom, or
a Mac, or even Windows. They call me a tinkerer, even though my user
interface has changed not one bit in seven years (Openbox with dmenu
and UMENU2). Kind of ironic considering the changes their beloved Gnome
and KDE have put them through during that time.

This video is such a breath of fresh air in a world worshipping Gates,
Jobs and Poettering. I suggest you watch it. I think it will bring a
smile to your face.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful
Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng