Re: [DNG] Er, Not that way ? .Re: Announcing Devuan 4.0: Chimaera!
Hi Steve,
Steve Litt writes:
> Hendrik Boom said on Sun, 17 Oct 2021 11:55:56 -0400
>
>>On Sun, Oct 17, 2021 at 07:56:47AM -0400, . via Dng wrote:
>>> On 10/17/21 07:48, terryc wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>>> Well, it can't hurt to try another update/upgrade cycle; I had a
>>> konsole open during the last reboot and it was restored, so I can do
>>> command-line things (and what else could I possibly need :-) If that
>>> doesn't fix things up then it's nuke-and-repave time.
>>
>>I've learned it's useful to repeat upgrades and dist-upgrandes and an
>>occasinoal aptitude until nothing happens AND there are no errors
>>reported.
>
> When dealing with non-rolling releases, and maybe even rolling releases
> in certain circumstances, I'm a fan of nuke-and-repave for major
> versions. This is because I'm an elder in the Church of the Known State,
> and a brand new install is an opportunity to achieve a known state. This
> tends to limit the ghosts of versions past.
Catharsis has its place ;-)
Major distro releases are a good time to consider them although I tend
to skip one (or two) because of the work involved starting from scratch
(even with backups to refer back to).
> Obviously, at least one complete, known good and known restorable
> backup must be taken before this. In addition, before this, the results
> of mount, lshw (as root), and whatever package management command gives
> you the packages installed manually, as opposed to those installed only
> as dependencies. If possible, also print the output of mount and lshw.
The stuff I typically back up is everything below /etc, /usr/local,
/home, /opt and /srv. I also check there's nothing left in
/var/spool/*, especially /var/spool/mail (symlinks to /var/mail, btw).
Then I collect the output of
apt-mark showmanual # for the stuff I explicitly installed
and one of
dpkg --get-selections # for what I intended to have installed
apt list --installed # for everything that's installed
As for capturing the output of mount, that should be covered by
/etc/fstab. If none of the hardware changes, then lshw might not
be needed and besides the installer will log a lot more below
/var/log/installer/.
> Then install the new major version, then install all your backed up
> *data*, as opposed to OS or package supplied *programs*, then install
> all the packages on the list of manually installed packages. What I
> generally do is copy the list of packages to a shellscript, convert it
> to package install commands, comment them all out, and then uncomment
> ten at a time to install them. Why ten at a time? So if something goes
> wrong you can find it, and so it doesn't take hours.
My list of manually installed packages is typically not all that long.
On my Xfce4 laptop (which pulls in Recommends:) there are only 120 and
quite a few of them are there to keep packages installed that were
installed by the installer already.
# BTW, I normally just install a console system with the installer and
# add the rest later on an as needed basis. That is, I don't select a
# desktop environment or any "standard" packages in the installer.
After installation, I typically run
apt-mark auto $(dpkg-query -W -f '${Package} ')
to mark *everything* automatically installed and then iterate over the
list of packages that
apt --auto-remove purge
would nuke to arrive at a list of packages I really need/want.
> After that, take a backup of the new system including /etc and
> $HOME, then restore *strategic* config files from /etc/ and ~ and
> ~/.config. By strategic, I mean configs that you hand-crafted.
> Sometimes it's better to copy your hand-crafting into current
> package-installed config files. I find this especially true of Dovecot.
I keep track of /etc with etckeeper which puts that directory under git
version control. That means I can always track back changes to package
updates or me mucking around there and see exactly what changed. That
can be very helpful if an `apt upgrade` broke stuff, more so because I
track "testing" ;-)
> On more thing. When *I* write a program, I never put it in /usr/bin or
> /usr/local/bin or /opt. I have my own directory, called /d/bats (last
> century it was called D:\BATS when I used Windows), to contain all
> executables (including shellscripts and perl/python/ruby/lua/ and the
> like) written by me. You can certainly name that directory differently,
> but it's a directory containing your executables and only your
> executables, so it restores with your personal data, and is not
> molested by anything in the upgrade. Obviously, this directory is on
> the system's executable path.In DOS, Windows, and Linux this segregation
> of executables written by me has served me extremely well. I'd suggest
> you do it too.
Might I suggest $HOME/bin :-)
It's been 20+ years since "last century" ...
If you need these scripts to be usable by other users on your system,
I'd go with /usr/local/bin (which I would backup).
Hope this helps,
--
Olaf
Re: [DNG] Er, Not that way ? .Re: Announcing Devuan 4.0: Chimaera!
Le 17/10/2021 à 20:44, Steve Litt a écrit : > Hendrik Boom said on Sun, 17 Oct 2021 11:55:56 -0400 > >> On Sun, Oct 17, 2021 at 07:56:47AM -0400, . via Dng wrote: >>> On 10/17/21 07:48, terryc wrote: > [snip] > >>> Well, it can't hurt to try another update/upgrade cycle; I had a >>> konsole open during the last reboot and it was restored, so I can do >>> command-line things (and what else could I possibly need:-) If that >>> doesn't fix things up then it's nuke-and-repave time. >> I've learned it's useful to repeat upgrades and dist-upgrandes and an >> occasinoal aptitude until nothing happens AND there are no errors >> reported. Thanks. I discovered there remains a lot to upgrade/install after the reboot! I use to also insert 'apt-get autoremove --purge' in between. > When dealing with non-rolling releases, and maybe even rolling releases > in certain circumstances, I'm a fan of nuke-and-repave for major > versions. This is because I'm an elder in the Church of the Known State, > and a brand new install is an opportunity to achieve a known state. This > tends to limit the ghosts of versions past. I agree with you. Sometimes it's good to restart fromscratch. It's also an opportunity to make hardware changes. Two systems upgraded to Chimaera these days. All looks fine. Thanks to the great team. -- Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Er, Not that way ? .Re: Announcing Devuan 4.0: Chimaera!
On Sun, Oct 17, 2021 at 02:23:28PM +0200, maxime freepote via Dng wrote: > I had to use the conflict resolutioni tool of aptitude after an "apt-get > full-upgrade". Python was the main cause of this behaviour but also external > packages from non-standard repositories. Except this, all of the upgrade went > well, from a devuan that also runs since ascii. I once had problems like this with a low-level display-related package. Two packages turned out to contain the same file, and so only one could remain. I thought it was a packageing problem (such packages should not be in one repository, but it turned out that a previous upgrade (done a year or more ago) hadn't completed properly, and so I still had (and was presumably using) a package from multiple releases ago. I had to delete it using dpkg. apt and aptitude kept failing because of the undeclared conflict. -- hendrik > > Thanks a lot! > > Maxime > > package sources. > On Sun, Oct 17, 2021 at 07:56:47AM -0400, . via Dng wrote: > > On 10/17/21 07:48, terryc wrote: > > > > I'm sorry to report that I tried a dist-upgrade from devuan beowulf > > > > with KDE on an older machine. The result was a system with a > > > > nonfunctional window manager and messed-up display resolution, and no > > > > working Ethernet connection (and no wifi hardware). > > > AFAIK, that isn't the way you are supposed to do it. > > > > > > Under beowulf; I did > > > sudo apt-get update > > > sudo apt-get upgrade > > > sudo apt-get dist-upgrade > > > reboot > > > > Hmmm. I edited /etc/apt/sources.lst to use chimaera debs first, under > > beowulf, then did the above sequence. > > > > > Edit /etc/apt/sources.list to change beowulf to chimaera > > > I actually copy and date the deb lines and edit version to chimaera and > > > comment out the beowulf lines so there is a history record. > > > > > > Them with chimaera in the /etc/apt/sources.list > > > sudo apt-get update > > > sudo apt-get upgrade > > > sudo apt-get dist-upgrade > > > reboot and repeat; > > > sudo apt-get update > > > sudo apt-get upgrade > > > sudo apt-get dist-upgrade > > > rebbot. > > > > Well, it can't hurt to try another update/upgrade cycle; I had a konsole > > open during the last reboot and it was restored, so I can do command-line > > things (and what else could I possibly need :-) If that doesn't fix things > > up then it's nuke-and-repave time. > > > > -bobmon > > > > ___ > > Dng mailing list > > Dng@lists.dyne.org > > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Er, Not that way ? .Re: Announcing Devuan 4.0: Chimaera!
Hendrik Boom said on Sun, 17 Oct 2021 11:55:56 -0400 >On Sun, Oct 17, 2021 at 07:56:47AM -0400, . via Dng wrote: >> On 10/17/21 07:48, terryc wrote: [snip] >> Well, it can't hurt to try another update/upgrade cycle; I had a >> konsole open during the last reboot and it was restored, so I can do >> command-line things (and what else could I possibly need :-) If that >> doesn't fix things up then it's nuke-and-repave time. > >I've learned it's useful to repeat upgrades and dist-upgrandes and an >occasinoal aptitude until nothing happens AND there are no errors >reported. When dealing with non-rolling releases, and maybe even rolling releases in certain circumstances, I'm a fan of nuke-and-repave for major versions. This is because I'm an elder in the Church of the Known State, and a brand new install is an opportunity to achieve a known state. This tends to limit the ghosts of versions past. Obviously, at least one complete, known good and known restorable backup must be taken before this. In addition, before this, the results of mount, lshw (as root), and whatever package management command gives you the packages installed manually, as opposed to those installed only as dependencies. If possible, also print the output of mount and lshw. Then install the new major version, then install all your backed up *data*, as opposed to OS or package supplied *programs*, then install all the packages on the list of manually installed packages. What I generally do is copy the list of packages to a shellscript, convert it to package install commands, comment them all out, and then uncomment ten at a time to install them. Why ten at a time? So if something goes wrong you can find it, and so it doesn't take hours. After that, take a backup of the new system including /etc and $HOME, then restore *strategic* config files from /etc/ and ~ and ~/.config. By strategic, I mean configs that you hand-crafted. Sometimes it's better to copy your hand-crafting into current package-installed config files. I find this especially true of Dovecot. On more thing. When *I* write a program, I never put it in /usr/bin or /usr/local/bin or /opt. I have my own directory, called /d/bats (last century it was called D:\BATS when I used Windows), to contain all executables (including shellscripts and perl/python/ruby/lua/ and the like) written by me. You can certainly name that directory differently, but it's a directory containing your executables and only your executables, so it restores with your personal data, and is not molested by anything in the upgrade. Obviously, this directory is on the system's executable path.In DOS, Windows, and Linux this segregation of executables written by me has served me extremely well. I'd suggest you do it too. SteveT Steve Litt Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Er, Not that way ? .Re: Announcing Devuan 4.0: Chimaera!
I had to use the conflict resolutioni tool of aptitude after an "apt-get full-upgrade". Python was the main cause of this behaviour but also external packages from non-standard repositories. Except this, all of the upgrade went well, from a devuan that also runs since ascii. Thanks a lot! Maxime package sources. On Sun, Oct 17, 2021 at 07:56:47AM -0400, . via Dng wrote: > On 10/17/21 07:48, terryc wrote: > > > I'm sorry to report that I tried a dist-upgrade from devuan beowulf > > > with KDE on an older machine. The result was a system with a > > > nonfunctional window manager and messed-up display resolution, and no > > > working Ethernet connection (and no wifi hardware). > > AFAIK, that isn't the way you are supposed to do it. > > > > Under beowulf; I did > > sudo apt-get update > > sudo apt-get upgrade > > sudo apt-get dist-upgrade > > reboot > > Hmmm. I edited /etc/apt/sources.lst to use chimaera debs first, under > beowulf, then did the above sequence. > > > Edit /etc/apt/sources.list to change beowulf to chimaera > > I actually copy and date the deb lines and edit version to chimaera and > > comment out the beowulf lines so there is a history record. > > > > Them with chimaera in the /etc/apt/sources.list > > sudo apt-get update > > sudo apt-get upgrade > > sudo apt-get dist-upgrade > > reboot and repeat; > > sudo apt-get update > > sudo apt-get upgrade > > sudo apt-get dist-upgrade > > rebbot. > > Well, it can't hurt to try another update/upgrade cycle; I had a konsole > open during the last reboot and it was restored, so I can do command-line > things (and what else could I possibly need :-) If that doesn't fix things > up then it's nuke-and-repave time. > > -bobmon > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Er, Not that way ? .Re: Announcing Devuan 4.0: Chimaera!
On Sunday 17 October 2021 at 17:55:56, Hendrik Boom wrote: > I've learned it's useful to repeat upgrades and dist-upgrandes and an > occasinoal aptitude until nothing happens AND there are no errors reported. I have found that apt is better for doing an upgrade whereas I prefer aptitude for installing pakcages in general. > I don't know why just repeating this should help; somehow, even with no > reported errors that I can see, the job often isn't done. Almost as if > the various apt-* commands don't do a complete job of analysing > dependencies and opportunities. Indeed - it must be an amazingly complex process, but one of the big reasons why I like DEB-based systems is because it is at least possible to upgrade from one release to another, generally with very little pain. Try that with an RPM system and you'll be glad you have a backup of /home, and you'll then just install an new system and remount the backup... Antony. -- If I needed my own advice, I wouldn't give it to others. Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Er, Not that way ? .Re: Announcing Devuan 4.0: Chimaera!
On Sun, Oct 17, 2021 at 07:56:47AM -0400, . via Dng wrote: > On 10/17/21 07:48, terryc wrote: > > > I'm sorry to report that I tried a dist-upgrade from devuan beowulf > > > with KDE on an older machine. The result was a system with a > > > nonfunctional window manager and messed-up display resolution, and no > > > working Ethernet connection (and no wifi hardware). > > AFAIK, that isn't the way you are supposed to do it. > > > > Under beowulf; I did > > sudo apt-get update > > sudo apt-get upgrade > > sudo apt-get dist-upgrade > > reboot > > Hmmm. I edited /etc/apt/sources.lst to use chimaera debs first, under > beowulf, then did the above sequence. > > > Edit /etc/apt/sources.list to change beowulf to chimaera > > I actually copy and date the deb lines and edit version to chimaera and > > comment out the beowulf lines so there is a history record. > > > > Them with chimaera in the /etc/apt/sources.list > > sudo apt-get update > > sudo apt-get upgrade > > sudo apt-get dist-upgrade > > reboot and repeat; > > sudo apt-get update > > sudo apt-get upgrade > > sudo apt-get dist-upgrade > > rebbot. > > Well, it can't hurt to try another update/upgrade cycle; I had a konsole > open during the last reboot and it was restored, so I can do command-line > things (and what else could I possibly need :-) If that doesn't fix things > up then it's nuke-and-repave time. I've learned it's useful to repeat upgrades and dist-upgrandes and an occasinoal aptitude until nothing happens AND there are no errors reported. I don't know why just repeating this should help; somehow, even with no reported errors that I can see, the job often isn't done. Almost as if the various apt-* commands don't do a complete job of analysing dependencies and opportunities. -- hendrik > > -bobmon > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Er, Not that way ? .Re: Announcing Devuan 4.0: Chimaera!
On 10/17/21 07:48, terryc wrote: I'm sorry to report that I tried a dist-upgrade from devuan beowulf with KDE on an older machine. The result was a system with a nonfunctional window manager and messed-up display resolution, and no working Ethernet connection (and no wifi hardware). AFAIK, that isn't the way you are supposed to do it. Under beowulf; I did sudo apt-get update sudo apt-get upgrade sudo apt-get dist-upgrade reboot Hmmm. I edited /etc/apt/sources.lst to use chimaera debs first, under beowulf, then did the above sequence. Edit /etc/apt/sources.list to change beowulf to chimaera I actually copy and date the deb lines and edit version to chimaera and comment out the beowulf lines so there is a history record. Them with chimaera in the /etc/apt/sources.list sudo apt-get update sudo apt-get upgrade sudo apt-get dist-upgrade reboot and repeat; sudo apt-get update sudo apt-get upgrade sudo apt-get dist-upgrade rebbot. Well, it can't hurt to try another update/upgrade cycle; I had a konsole open during the last reboot and it was restored, so I can do command-line things (and what else could I possibly need :-) If that doesn't fix things up then it's nuke-and-repave time. -bobmon ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Er, Not that way ? .Re: Announcing Devuan 4.0: Chimaera!
On Sun, 17 Oct 2021 07:10:50 -0400 ". via Dng" wrote: > > Dear Friends and Software Freedom Lovers, > > > > Devuan Developers are pleased to announce the release of Devuan > > Chimaera 4.0 as the project's newest stable release. This is the > > result of lots of painstaking work by the team and extensive > > testing by the wider Devuan community. > > I'm sorry to report that I tried a dist-upgrade from devuan beowulf > with KDE on an older machine. The result was a system with a > nonfunctional window manager and messed-up display resolution, and no > working Ethernet connection (and no wifi hardware). AFAIK, that isn't the way you are supposed to do it. Under beowulf; I did sudo apt-get update sudo apt-get upgrade sudo apt-get dist-upgrade reboot Edit /etc/apt/sources.list to change beowulf to chimaera I actually copy and date the deb lines and edit version to chimaera and comment out the beowulf lines so there is a history record. Them with chimaera in the /etc/apt/sources.list sudo apt-get update sudo apt-get upgrade sudo apt-get dist-upgrade reboot and repeat; sudo apt-get update sudo apt-get upgrade sudo apt-get dist-upgrade rebbot. I was surprised when the second set was far longer that the first set. A large number of libraries seemed to need to change, which could have been because this was my main computer and often install programs to try them out. Also, YMMV, but there were a couple of 'sudo apt autoremove' in there. > I'm going to try a clean install next. Fortunately I keep my /home > filesystem on a separate partition. Wise move. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
