Re: [DNG] Open-RC on devuan - some questions

[uhtlmk]

@Jaromil, parazyd

From a previous question i posted about openrc, i got an answer by
jaromil, that there is underway an openrc package for ascii (which
would respect the gentoo style of implementation).

Now, my question: Is there a, may be even experimental package,
already? I'd be happy to use (and try out) that :)

TIA
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Open-RC on devuan - some questions

[emninger]

@Jaromil, parazyd

From a previous question i posted about openrc, i got an answer by
jaromil, that there is underway an openrc package for ascii (which
would respect the gentoo style of implementation).

Now, my question: Is there a, may be even experimental package,
already? I'd be happy to use (and try out) that :)

TIA
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Open-RC on devuan - some questions

[emninger]

Am Tue, 19 Jul 2016 16:22:41 +
schrieb Steve Litt :

> The older I get, the more I think the easiest route is to use
> wpa_passphrase, then, as root, append its output
> into /etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf. Crude but effective.
> Travelling wifi on laptops is a mess, always has been.

I agree, essentially. networkmanager seems a no go to me because of its
indentation with systemd (?); wicd is somehow better but far from
ideal, imho.

I'd like to encourage you to try out, may be just for a moment, ceni
(which thanks to ozi is in our repositories now). Unfortunately it
relays on ifupdown (therefore strictly debian/devuan). You'd need to
use a machine of your wife ;) - but: do it. I think it's a great and
very simple tool.

Cheers.
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Open-RC on devuan - some questions

[emninger]

Am Tue, 19 Jul 2016 16:22:41 +
schrieb Rob Owens :

> You got me interested and I just installed OpenRC on Devuan Jessie.
> I got the following message:
> 
> **
> *** WARNING: if you are replacing sysv-rc by OpenRC, then you must ***
> *** reboot immediately using the following command:***
> for file in /etc/rc0.d/K*; do s=`basename $(readlink "$file")` ;
> /etc/init.d/$s stop; done
> *** once rebooted, you could safely backup and remove /etc/rc?.d   ***
> **
> 
> Did you follow those instructions?

Yes!

> I see I have no /etc/conf.d.  To me this means I really do not have
> OpenRC, as conf.d is one of the key benefits of OpenRC in my opinion.

Exactly, that's what i meant ... ;) :-(

I'm happy someone else sees my situation and it's not my stupidity :)
But, may be you saw the msg of jaromil that there is in the sink a
completely redone devuan package of openrc - which would make me happy.

Cheers.
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Open-RC on devuan - some questions

[Steve Litt]

On Tue, 19 Jul 2016 10:02:46 +0200
 wrote:


> May be you remember, i also tried Void but, may be due to my linuxwise
> incompetence, i found it not so easy to configure and sometimes (for
> the wpasupplicant/dhcpcd thing) confusing.

Void Linux is very difficult the first month or two you use it. I was
asking five or ten questions a day on #xbps the first couple weeks.

Wpasupplicant/dhcpcd is obscenely confusing, made more so by Void's use
of magic configs tucked somewhere (you find them, I can't) that link the
two together. But then again, NetworkManager and Wicd can get confusing
when things don't go just right.

The older I get, the more I think the easiest route is to use
wpa_passphrase, then, as root, append its output
into /etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf. Crude but effective.
Travelling wifi on laptops is a mess, always has been.


SteveT

Steve Litt 
July 2016 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques
 of the Successful Technologist
http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Open-RC on devuan - some questions

[Rob Owens]

On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 at 1:12 PM,  wrote:

> Hi!
>
> On the road to a viable jwm desktop in devuan, i am using/trying
> open-rc. In advance, my excuses if what follows is not sufficiently
> technical.
>
> To the point: From Manjaro-OpenRC i knew openrc as a clean and logical
> system to manage daemons & processes. By far, from a user point of
> view, superior to sysvinit. Now, the transition from sysvinit to openrc
> in devuan is mostly painless. BUT: I'm under the impression in
> devuan/debian openrc works only as a kind of wrapper around sysvinit.
>
> An example: I installed a zram script (still when i had sysvinit as
> init manager). Now, this script is configured to openrc in this way:
>
> "rc-update add zram boot" (which adds the zram daemon to the boot level
> to have it ready early; could be added also to default). Now, when i
> remove it by "rc-update del zram boot" it is not even more present for
> openrc - but nevertheless, it is still started at any reboot. For me,
> that means, openrc is *NOT* the real init manager - at least in its
> debian implementation.
>

You got me interested and I just installed OpenRC on Devuan Jessie.  I got
the following message:

**
*** WARNING: if you are replacing sysv-rc by OpenRC, then you must ***
*** reboot immediately using the following command:***
for file in /etc/rc0.d/K*; do s=`basename $(readlink "$file")` ;
/etc/init.d/$s stop; done
*** once rebooted, you could safely backup and remove /etc/rc?.d   ***
**

Did you follow those instructions?

I found that before I removed /etc/rc?.d, I was still running sysv init
(but most/all services did not start -- ssh for example).  After a
subsequent reboot, I was running OpenRC.

I'm still testing it, though...


>
> It would be nice to have openrc implemented as it is in gentoo or
> manjaro: with the to essential directories:
>
> /etc/conf.d (where all the scripts for openrc are configured)
> /etc/init.d (where the scripts that are configured in /etc/conf.d sit)
>

I see I have no /etc/conf.d.  To me this means I really do not have OpenRC,
as conf.d is one of the key benefits of OpenRC in my opinion.

-Rob
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Open-RC on devuan - some questions

[emninger]

Am Tue, 19 Jul 2016 02:43:59 +
schrieb Steve Litt :

Hi Steve!

> The "wrapper around sysvinit" thing is a feature of OpenRC, not
> Devuan/Debian's implementation thereof. A little more explanation...
> 
> [ . . . ]

Thanks for your patience! It's in some way a bit above my knowledge,
but the essentials i think i got. My excuses in advance anyway ;)

But let me say this: *FROM A USER POINT OF VIEW* OpenRC is easier, the
config scripts in /etc/conf.d are way simpler than those of sysvinit.
May be you remember, i also tried Void but, may be due to my linuxwise
incompetence, i found it not so easy to configure and sometimes (for
the wpasupplicant/dhcpcd thing) confusing.

Anyway, from theory, a suckless init as pid1 + openrc might be a slick
combo (?).

As for the respawn problem: I'm not sure, but i think OpenRC gives the
possibility to mark/flag/config certain daemons and/or processes to be
respawned. That might be better than doing that by default ... (?)

E.g., i would not like to have privoxy respawned automatically in case
something with its configurations does not work. But anyway ... I saw
you're hanging around from time to time in the manjaro-openrc group. I
think you might ask to artoo, which seems to be a quite smart openrc
wizzard. 

And btw, in manjaro-openrc the scripts are configured as /bin/bash (or
sh? - for sure not as /bin/openrc; which is sometimes a problem when
you use directly a gentoo script: you have to think of this changement).
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Open-RC on devuan - some questions

[Steve Litt]

On Mon, 18 Jul 2016 20:30:12 +0200
Jaromil  wrote:


> We want to avoid overlapping openrc scripts with sysvinit
> scripts. 

I can't even begin to imagine the mess with their scripts in any way
overlapped, commingled, interchangeable, etc. Eeeuu!

> This is the major reason to dismiss the dialogue with current
> maintainer in Debian and deciding to scratch that package entirely.

True! A second reason is that if a Devuan person created and maintained
a Devuan package, Debian couldn't pull the rug out from under us.
 
SteveT

Steve Litt 
July 2016 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques
 of the Successful Technologist
http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Open-RC on devuan - some questions

[emninger]

Am Mon, 18 Jul 2016 18:30:07 +
schrieb Jaromil :

Hi Jaromil!

> this is precisely what Parazyd has recommended to do, while looking
> into the plan to make a openrc package on ascii. we also have contact
> with genoo maintainers and good understanding of their approach.
> 
> from what I've seen so far, i think you can expect devuan ascii to
> have a proper (a'la gentoo) openrc setup offering flawless switch and
> even run in parallel.
> 
> We want to avoid overlapping openrc scripts with sysvinit
> scripts. This is the major reason to dismiss the dialogue with current
> maintainer in Debian and deciding to scratch that package entirely.

That's fantastic news. Please let me know, when and if this package is
available. Even if only in a testing circle, i'd be well willed to try
out (and eventually to help testing, if i can be useful ... (?) ).

Cheers!

PS. I know, Steve Litt does not like so much OpenRC, but me, for one and
as a simple user, i like it specifically from a user point of view
because it's so "linear" to use. 
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Open-RC on devuan - some questions

[Steve Litt]

On Mon, 18 Jul 2016 19:12:37 +0200
 wrote:

> Hi!
> 
> On the road to a viable jwm desktop in devuan, i am using/trying
> open-rc. In advance, my excuses if what follows is not sufficiently
> technical.
> 
> To the point: From Manjaro-OpenRC i knew openrc as a clean and logical
> system to manage daemons & processes. By far, from a user point of
> view, superior to sysvinit. Now, the transition from sysvinit to
> openrc in devuan is mostly painless. BUT: I'm under the impression in
> devuan/debian openrc works only as a kind of wrapper around sysvinit. 

The "wrapper around sysvinit" thing is a feature of OpenRC, not
Devuan/Debian's implementation thereof. A little more explanation...

What's commonly called an "init system" can be thought of as two
separate components:

1) PID1, the first program the kernel runs. PID1 does two things: fork
   off an init script, and circle around listening for signals.

2) Process manager. This runs the necessary background programs, and
   if it's about its business, enables you to interact with them and
   maybe even respawn them if they crash. The process manager is, or is
   run by, the rc file forked off by PID1.

The preceding two component model is more conceptual than real.
Although it perfectly describes the runit init system, it's not how s6
works, and it's completely different from systemd, which of course
isn't an init system at all but only contains one. I have no idea how
sysvinit is built internally.

The two component model is at least conceptually descriptive of
sysvinit. It has a PID1 which forks off an rc file that calls all the
stuff in /etc/rc.d/rc5.d or whatever. The stuff named in /etc/inittab
is respawnable, and I don't know whether it exists in PID1 or is passed
to the rc file.

OpenRC has only one component: The process manager. It has no PID1. The
easiest way to team it up with a PID1 is to use sysvinit as PID1,
because then you can start up respawnables from /etc/inittab. But you
can also PID1 OpenRC from Suckless Init, Felker Init, and who knows,
maybe even runit's PID1. 

So, OpenRC needs a PID1, sysvinit is by far its most used PID1, which
is why OpenRC might seem like a wrapper around sysvinit. And, as I
said, this is a property of OpenRC itself, not any distro's
implementation. Like you said, init scripts might be laid out totally
differently in different distros,but OpenRC distros all require a
separate PID1 (and almost always use sysvinit), because OpenRC has no
PID1 of its own.

I'm not an OpenRC fan. It appears not to be able to respawn (although
there's some question about this), its init scripts appear to be just
as huge and confusing as those of sysvinit, and its init scripts are
written in a language slightly different from /bin/bash or /bin/sh. My
view: If I'm going to take the trouble to replace sysvinit, I want
something substantially different: runit, Epoch, and maybe s6 or s6-rc
come to mind. runit and Epoch have amazingly tiny and simple run
scripts and process configs, respectively. Runit always respawns its
later processes, and Epoch gives you the choice to respawn any process
it runs. Epoch and runit have such simple process configs and run
scripts that a mere user can modify, troubleshooter or create them.


SteveT

Steve Litt 
July 2016 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques
 of the Successful Technologist
http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Open-RC on devuan - some questions

[Jaromil]

On Mon, 18 Jul 2016, emnin...@riseup.net wrote:

> 
> It would be nice to have openrc implemented as it is in gentoo or
> manjaro: with the to essential directories:

this is precisely what Parazyd has recommended to do, while looking
into the plan to make a openrc package on ascii. we also have contact
with genoo maintainers and good understanding of their approach.

from what I've seen so far, i think you can expect devuan ascii to
have a proper (a'la gentoo) openrc setup offering flawless switch and
even run in parallel.

We want to avoid overlapping openrc scripts with sysvinit
scripts. This is the major reason to dismiss the dialogue with current
maintainer in Debian and deciding to scratch that package entirely.


ciao

___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

[DNG] Open-RC on devuan - some questions

[emninger]

Hi!

On the road to a viable jwm desktop in devuan, i am using/trying
open-rc. In advance, my excuses if what follows is not sufficiently
technical.

To the point: From Manjaro-OpenRC i knew openrc as a clean and logical
system to manage daemons & processes. By far, from a user point of
view, superior to sysvinit. Now, the transition from sysvinit to openrc
in devuan is mostly painless. BUT: I'm under the impression in
devuan/debian openrc works only as a kind of wrapper around sysvinit. 

An example: I installed a zram script (still when i had sysvinit as
init manager). Now, this script is configured to openrc in this way:

"rc-update add zram boot" (which adds the zram daemon to the boot level
to have it ready early; could be added also to default). Now, when i
remove it by "rc-update del zram boot" it is not even more present for
openrc - but nevertheless, it is still started at any reboot. For me,
that means, openrc is *NOT* the real init manager - at least in its
debian implementation.

It would be nice to have openrc implemented as it is in gentoo or
manjaro: with the to essential directories:

/etc/conf.d (where all the scripts for openrc are configured)
/etc/init.d (where the scripts that are configured in /etc/conf.d sit)

May be in that way, it would be also easier to use the existing scripts
in gentoo and arch/manjaro (maintained by artoo).

I ask here, because i know here are some competent openrc coders.

Thanks in advance for any pointer!
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng