Re: [DNG] serial and ps2 ports.
Can confirm. Killed a Packard Bell sometime around 1990 hot plugging the keyboard. Luckily they warrantied it. On August 27, 2017 1:43:41 PM CDT, Rick Moen wrote: ::Quoting Simon Hobson (li...@thehobsons.co.uk): :: ::[PS/2 6-pin mini-DIN vs. old 5-pin DIN] :: ::> AFAIK the underlying protocol for the keyboard is the same (or near ::> enough for simple conversion) between the two connector formats to ::> allow for easy conversion between plugs. :: ::It absolutely is, and therefore the two share the trait that users can ::(rarely) fry motherboard circuity by assuming the connection supports ::hotplug operation, which strictly speaking it was not designed to do. :: ::___ ::Dng mailing list ::Dng@lists.dyne.org ::https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng -- Sent from a Mobile device.___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] serial and ps2 ports.
The PC/XT used a clock/data protocol directly into an interrupt driven shift register which could handle 300 Kb+. The AT is microcoded and uses pseudo-RS-232 format but with the bit windows timing relaxed to allow for for microcoding. The keyboard is dominate but the buss direction can be reversed when the adapter pulls the clock line low and holds it. Sent from my MetroPCS 4G LTE Android Device Original message From: k...@aspodata.se Date: 8/27/17 2:04 PM (GMT-06:00) To: dng@lists.dyne.org Subject: Re: [DNG] serial and ps2 ports. Alessandro: > On Sun, 27 Aug 2017 at 18:03:08 +0100 > Simon Hobson wrote: > [...] > > AFAIK the underlying protocol for the keyboard is the same (or near enough > > for simple conversion) between the two connector formats to allow for easy > > conversion between plugs. > > They are, adaptors are purely mechanical. PC/AT and PS/2 have the same protocol and electrical spec. except they have different connectors. The protocol is bidirectional. PC/XT has the same pinout and connector as PC/AT but not the same protocol and they won't work together. The protocol is keyboard -> pc only. See page 16 of http://kbdbabel.sourceforge.net/doc/kbdbabel-vortrag-vcfe80-20070429.pdf and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_PC_keyboard for details. Regards, /Karl Hammar --- Aspö Data Lilla Aspö 148 S-742 94 Östhammar Sweden +46 173 140 57 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] serial and ps2 ports.
Nick: ... > I can admit that: a friend of mine cannot part of his original IBM AT > keyboard. So it has a converter from big DIN to PS2 to usb to connect it > to his PC without PS2 ports. Yes, there are still a few out there having thoose +10year old stuff. Hälsningar, /Karl Hammar --- Aspö Data Lilla Aspö 148 S-742 94 Östhammar Sverige 0173 140 57 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] serial and ps2 ports.
info at smallinnovations dot nl [2017-08-27 22:25]: > I can admit that: a friend of mine cannot part of his original IBM AT > keyboard. So it has a converter from big DIN to PS2 to usb to connect it > to his PC without PS2 ports. I can understand that, they have a great "feel". However, they need more power than most USB ports (or maybe converters) can supply, so they won't work in many cases. Personally, I prefer the Norwegian Tandberg keyboards, with a PS/2 to USB converter. -- Hilsen Harald ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] serial and ps2 ports.
On Sun, 27 Aug 2017 22:25:45 +0200 info at smallinnovations dot nl wrote: > I can admit that: a friend of mine cannot part of his original IBM AT > keyboard. So it has a converter from big DIN to PS2 to usb to connect it > to his PC without PS2 ports. I have to plead guilty of still using, with both PC-XT to PS and Serial to USB adapters, an ancient AT keyboard with built-in trackball.. Cheers, Ron. -- Murphy was an optimist. -- O'Toole -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org -- ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] serial and ps2 ports.
On 27-08-17 21:04, k...@aspodata.se wrote: PC/AT and PS/2 have the same protocol and electrical spec. except they have different connectors. The protocol is bidirectional. PC/XT has the same pinout and connector as PC/AT but not the same protocol and they won't work together. The protocol is keyboard -> pc only. See page 16 of http://kbdbabel.sourceforge.net/doc/kbdbabel-vortrag-vcfe80-20070429.pdf and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_PC_keyboard for details. Regards, /Karl Hammar --- Aspö Data Lilla Aspö 148 S-742 94 Östhammar Sweden +46 173 140 57 I can admit that: a friend of mine cannot part of his original IBM AT keyboard. So it has a converter from big DIN to PS2 to usb to connect it to his PC without PS2 ports. Grtz. Nick ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] serial and ps2 ports.
Quoting k...@aspodata.se (k...@aspodata.se): > PC/AT and PS/2 have the same protocol and electrical spec. except they > have different connectors. The protocol is bidirectional. > > PC/XT has the same pinout and connector as PC/AT but not the > same protocol and they won't work together. > The protocol is keyboard -> pc only. Around 2000, someone brought a naggingly familiar machine to one of my local LUGs for help doing Linux installation. I poked around it a couple of minutes and finally recognised it with a laugh as an XT clone. I congratulated the owner on the fact that it was still functional even though it was 15 years out of date -- and explained that, no, we'd not be installing a Linux distribution (though the owner could look into ELKS, http://elks.sourceforge.net/, if the better alternative of finding a more-modern giveaway machine somehow did not appeal). Other than that, the only place I've seen a PC/XT keyboard since the 1990s is the Computer History Museum, so thankfully those are long gone. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] serial and ps2 ports.
Alessandro: > On Sun, 27 Aug 2017 at 18:03:08 +0100 > Simon Hobson wrote: > [...] > > AFAIK the underlying protocol for the keyboard is the same (or near enough > > for simple conversion) between the two connector formats to allow for easy > > conversion between plugs. > > They are, adaptors are purely mechanical. PC/AT and PS/2 have the same protocol and electrical spec. except they have different connectors. The protocol is bidirectional. PC/XT has the same pinout and connector as PC/AT but not the same protocol and they won't work together. The protocol is keyboard -> pc only. See page 16 of http://kbdbabel.sourceforge.net/doc/kbdbabel-vortrag-vcfe80-20070429.pdf and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_PC_keyboard for details. Regards, /Karl Hammar --- Aspö Data Lilla Aspö 148 S-742 94 Östhammar Sweden +46 173 140 57 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] serial and ps2 ports.
Quoting Simon Hobson (li...@thehobsons.co.uk): [PS/2 6-pin mini-DIN vs. old 5-pin DIN] > AFAIK the underlying protocol for the keyboard is the same (or near > enough for simple conversion) between the two connector formats to > allow for easy conversion between plugs. It absolutely is, and therefore the two share the trait that users can (rarely) fry motherboard circuity by assuming the connection supports hotplug operation, which strictly speaking it was not designed to do. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] serial and ps2 ports.
On Sun, 27 Aug 2017 at 18:03:08 +0100 Simon Hobson wrote: [...] > AFAIK the underlying protocol for the keyboard is the same (or near enough > for simple conversion) between the two connector formats to allow for easy > conversion between plugs. They are, adaptors are purely mechanical. Alessandro ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] serial and ps2 ports.
Hendrik Boom wrote: >> That's PS/2, not RS232. > > True, true. And there seem to be two different sizes of those > round plugs in use. At least, I've seen adapters to connect between > the two sizes. I think you may be thinking of the original PC keyboard connector which was a standard DIN plug most commonly used in audio applications (and MIDI). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DIN_connector The PS/2 keyboard & mouse connectors are 6 pin mini DIN (aka MCC, Mini Circular Connector) connectors, also made popular by Apple's use of the 8 pin version for the serial ports on the Mac. "Somewhat fiddly" to solder wires into, especially if the wires are a bit on the thick side ! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mini-DIN_connector AFAIK the underlying protocol for the keyboard is the same (or near enough for simple conversion) between the two connector formats to allow for easy conversion between plugs. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] serial and ps2 ports.
On Sat, Aug 26, 2017 at 01:01:10PM -0400, Hendrik Boom wrote: > > That's PS/2, not RS232. > > True, true. And there seem to be two different sizes of those > round plugs in use. At least, I've seen adapters to connect between > the two sizes. > > My system isn't as obsolete as I thought. > > I'm still seeing ads for single-board computers where the console is > expected to be connected through a serial port. > > So maybe serial is still alive. "still alive"? You mean, something like this: https://angband.pl/tmp/serials.jpg I assembled just a week ago. No one bothers making a single-board computer _without_ serial anymore. On x86, it's also a must if you do any sort of kernel debugging: netconsole doesn't work if you run a bridge, containers, VMs, your network card was designed during a different moon phase than the motherboard, or the planetary alignment wasn't right during their manufacture. And USB console (on the debuggee's side) is the first thing to go down during a crash/suspend/resume. But it's inadequate for connecting a mouse. Perhaps could be made adequate with some better protocol design, but this ship has sailed. Meow! -- ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ ⣾⠁⢰⠒⠀⣿⡁ Vat kind uf sufficiently advanced technology iz dis!? ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ -- Genghis Ht'rok'din ⠈⠳⣄ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] serial and ps2 ports.
On Sat, Aug 26, 2017 at 06:54:11PM +0200, Adam Borowski wrote: > On Sat, Aug 26, 2017 at 12:45:27PM -0400, Hendrik Boom wrote: > > On Sat, Aug 26, 2017 at 02:34:36PM +0200, Alessandro Selli wrote: > > > On Wed, 23 Aug 2017 at 23:23:47 +0200 (CEST) > > > k...@aspodata.se wrote: > > > > > > > Manually creating xorg.conf is required if you e.g. has a serial > > > > (rs232) mouse. > > > > > > Who does? Really, who today uses a mouse based on a technology that > > > went > > > out of production some 15 years ago and uses a connector that is absent on > > > most computers (and all laptops AFAICT) produced after 2009? > > > > My home server still has a mouse and a keyboard with one of those > > ancient round plugs. > > That's PS/2, not RS232. True, true. And there seem to be two different sizes of those round plugs in use. At least, I've seen adapters to connect between the two sizes. My system isn't as obsolete as I thought. I'm still seeing ads for single-board computers where the console is expected to be connected through a serial port. So maybe serial is still alive. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
