Re: [DNG] who is working for who (was Avahi (was Weird network issue))
On Tue, 16 Oct 2018 22:37:57 -0700 Rick Moen wrote: > (I continually find myself making the point on Dng that the quest > for universal solutions may be noble in its aims but will never > really succeed very well.) The preceding is what I've been trying to say for years, but didn't have the language to say it nearly as succinctly. Thank you! I'd like to add (because I'm not as succinct as you) that by covering every corner case, you add complexification containing its own corner cases, which you must solve with more complexification, ... What I like about runit (and s6) is that its very architecture makes solving problems almost trivial, so little complexification is necessary. SteveT Steve Litt September 2018 featured book: Quit Joblessness: Start Your Own Business http://www.troubleshooters.com/startbiz ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] who is working for who (was Avahi (was Weird network issue))
On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 10:53:07PM -0700, Bruce Ferrell wrote: > For real fun, turn on Avahi along with all the pulse audio stuff. > > Watch your network get flooded with multi-cast audio. Flooded? I'm sorry, but does you network is built over 33,6kbs modems? Have you lost the perspective? -- Tomasz .. oo o. oo o. .o .o o. o. oo o. .. Torcz.. .o .o .o .o oo oo .o .. .. oo oo o.o.o. .o .. o. o. o. o. o. o. oo .. .. o. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] who is working for who (was Avahi (was Weird network issue))
On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 10:37:57PM -0700, Rick Moen wrote: > > > So it comes down to a) try to kill the chatty discovery protocols and > > perpetuate the "geeks vs users" divide > > Was there a particular part of 'not on _my_ network' that was unclear? Maybe we need discovery protocols that are less chatty. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] who is working for who (was Avahi (was Weird network issue))
On 16.10.18 22:53, Bruce Ferrell wrote: > > For real fun, turn on Avahi along with all the pulse audio stuff. > > Watch your network get flooded with multi-cast audio. > > Scramble to shut it down as fast as you can. Errrm, devuan ascii is running both of those OOTB. On another current thread, I've asked what might replace pulseaudio, as it appears to suffer usability problems. OTOH, "aptitude why avahi-daemon" merely shows: i task-desktop Recommends avahi-daemon so there should be no cost to purging that, I figure. Erik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] who is working for who (was Avahi (was Weird network issue))
On 10/16/18 10:37 PM, Rick Moen wrote: Quoting Simon Hobson (si...@thehobsons.co.uk): IMO you've demonstrated why such things as DNS-SD and mDNS are a good idea. They might be a good idea, but not on my networks. (I continually find myself making the point on Dng that the quest for universal solutions may be noble in its aims but will never really succeed very well.) You and I have the skills to go and find the printer's IP address, but we are not typical users who cannot do that. Well, since you raise that assertion, no, I do _not_ agree. They can do it fairly easily. They just aren't _likely_ to. Steps: 1. Write down the printer make/model. 2. Web-search documentation. 3. Find where in the documentation it says how to make the printer print out or otherwise display its network configuration. Do that. In much the same way, you (I assume) and I are happy to edit text files etc to configure our systems, but we are not typical users who cannot do that. Again, they _can_. They just aren't likely to. E.g., at one point, the Vice-President of Silicon Valley Linux User group asked on a mailing list how to solve a technical problem, and I replied back stating a complete solution using basic command-line tools. He said he wasn't willing to do that, and insisted on a graphical-tool equivalent. I cheerily replied that I had no problem with him imposing that additional requirement, wished him the very best of luck, and moved on to other priorities. Somehow, he found this dissatisfying. I, on the other hand, appreciated him warning me that I was better off lavishing my available time and energy elsewhere, so at least *I* got something out of the encounter. So it comes down to a) try to kill the chatty discovery protocols and perpetuate the "geeks vs users" divide Was there a particular part of 'not on _my_ network' that was unclear? ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng For real fun, turn on Avahi along with all the pulse audio stuff. Watch your network get flooded with multi-cast audio. Scramble to shut it down as fast as you can. There is a reason the mbone went nowhere. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] who is working for who (was Avahi (was Weird network issue))
Quoting Simon Hobson (si...@thehobsons.co.uk): > IMO you've demonstrated why such things as DNS-SD and mDNS are a good idea. They might be a good idea, but not on my networks. (I continually find myself making the point on Dng that the quest for universal solutions may be noble in its aims but will never really succeed very well.) > You and I have the skills to go and find the printer's IP address, but we are > not typical users who cannot do that. Well, since you raise that assertion, no, I do _not_ agree. They can do it fairly easily. They just aren't _likely_ to. Steps: 1. Write down the printer make/model. 2. Web-search documentation. 3. Find where in the documentation it says how to make the printer print out or otherwise display its network configuration. Do that. > In much the same way, you (I assume) and I are happy to edit text > files etc to configure our systems, but we are not typical users who > cannot do that. Again, they _can_. They just aren't likely to. E.g., at one point, the Vice-President of Silicon Valley Linux User group asked on a mailing list how to solve a technical problem, and I replied back stating a complete solution using basic command-line tools. He said he wasn't willing to do that, and insisted on a graphical-tool equivalent. I cheerily replied that I had no problem with him imposing that additional requirement, wished him the very best of luck, and moved on to other priorities. Somehow, he found this dissatisfying. I, on the other hand, appreciated him warning me that I was better off lavishing my available time and energy elsewhere, so at least *I* got something out of the encounter. > So it comes down to a) try to kill the chatty discovery protocols and > perpetuate the "geeks vs users" divide Was there a particular part of 'not on _my_ network' that was unclear? ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] who is working for who (was Avahi (was Weird network issue))
Rick Moen wrote: > I respect that. For the sake of community knowledge, I'll also tell you > what I do as an alternative: ... > One morning, I walked in, and Ms. Arun was very vexed, because she said that > printing was not working anywhere around the firm. Notably, she said there > had been a power outage right at the beginning of the business day. ... > I politely asked 'Why aren't people printing directly to the executive > LaserJet?' -- and, predictably, heard 'How do you do that?' Rick Moen wrote: > Quoting Alessandro Selli (alessandrose...@linux.com): > >> "Go to 'Settings', 'Network' and 'Search the local network', when you >> see the icon with the printer double click on it and accept the download >> of the driver and install it if you don't have it". >> >> This is the answer I get 99% of the times when I ask. > > Yeah, well, if I got that, I'd pretend to be really grateful, say 'Thank > you _so_ very much!', and then go quietly figure out the real answer for > myself. IMO you've demonstrated why such things as DNS-SD and mDNS are a good idea. You and I have the skills to go and find the printer's IP address, but we are not typical users who cannot do that. In much the same way, you (I assume) and I are happy to edit text files etc to configure our systems, but we are not typical users who cannot do that. So it comes down to a) try to kill the chatty discovery protocols and perpetuate the "geeks vs users" divide, or b) allow them and allow people to use technology for themselves. Don't forget that it's not all that long ago when people who owned cars employed a driver to operate it for them - now we are (mostly) all our own drivers now. Didier Kryn wrote: > I don't want to waste time figuring out printer properties and maintaining a > printer list on my laptop. There are already too many reasons to waste time. Exactly. Computers are supposed to do stuff for us, not have us do stuff for them. I was already using computers when the Mac came along (yes I know there were earlier examples, but it was really the Mac that made it out of the lab and onto people's desks), and I recall many complaints from software developers that it was hard to write programs for it. Back then, software was written on the basis of making the user do much of the hard work ... Where I used to work at the time, their standard word processor was Display Write from IBM. With this, you entered edit mode to work on your document but could not print from there. To print, you had to save the document and go into a different menu. From the developer's PoV it made things easy - the user can only do things that are allowed in the mode they are in. Then the Mac came along, now the user could just choose to print any time they liked. So the developer had to write their program to deal with user events *when the user wants to do them* rather than when the program allows. This made the developer's life harder - but now the computer did more and the user did less - ie the computer was doing more of the work instead of the user. Lots of overhead, more code, more memory required, etc, etc. But easier for the user. Sound familiar ? As an aside, I had to take the MIS people to task over document standards - which were all written on the basis that a word processor is just a glorified typewriter with fixed pitch fonts (eg "the left margin with be 12 spaces"). ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
