Re: [Dng] Call for factoids on the Debian fork
On Sat, 4/4/15, Steve Litt sl...@troubleshooters.com wrote: [big cut] In September 2014, Joel Roth had created a mailing list called Modular-Debian, whose archives are at https://www.freelists.org/archive/modular-debian. [cut] If anyone knows where to find the Modular-Debian archives, please post it. [cut] Duh! You already have the link in your post!! golinux ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Call for factoids on the Debian fork
On Sat, Apr 04, 2015 at 04:36:11PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote: [cut] The Dng mailing list started in early November, 2014, and quickly replaced Modular-Debian as the Go To place for former Debianistas. Note the famous and historical Don't panic and keep forking Debian™! post (https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20141127.212941.f55acc3a.en.html) to reassure everyone after Ian Jackson's GR rubber stamped systemd. That was the post that got things rolling! A small correction on this point: I am pretty sure that the DNG mailing list started right after the discussion about the GR started, i.e. around the 20th of October. The mail I got from Mailman is dated October 22nd 2014, but I think that there were already a few people in the ML when I arrived. At that time everybody was just hoping that, in the end, the ML (and the fork) would not be necessary at all... My2Cents KatolaZ -- [ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ] [ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ] [ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ] ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Call for factoids on the Debian fork
On Fri, 03 Apr 2015 19:56:48 -0300 hellekin helle...@dyne.org wrote: Hello dears, one of the current tasks of the Devuan Editors is to gather facts about the Debian fork in order to write a compelling story to be told on debianfork.org. This domain will hopefully be the place to deflect and defuse any troll about the Debian fork and systemd, in order to focus devuan.org on the actual distro work. Any help is welcome to gather original emails, timelines, witness accounts, key people and facts. The objective, I repeat, is to gather facts, not gossip, and not opinions or feelings about systemd. What I want to do is reply to the question: why did Devuan fork Debian? in the most sensible way possible. (Incidentally, how it happened may also be relevant ;o) If you'd like to get involved in the writing process, please idle on #devuan-www on Freenode IRC. Thank you for your attention and for your help. Hi hellekin, Of course, the Debian-User (https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2014/). Here you can see what's often called the Debian systemd wars, from about 7/1/2014 through the rest of the year. You can get a feel for why people continued to try to force Debian to provide choice, and the feeling of helplessness. The Debian-devel list (https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/) shows the systemd discussions from the start. The CTTE deliberations, which I consider the original crime (but you asked for facts, not opinions), is https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=727708 At https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2014/09/msg01367.html , you see Don Armstrong boasting about voting for systemd, and pointing to his vote and explanation. In September 2014, Joel Roth had created a mailing list called Modular-Debian, whose archives are at https://www.freelists.org/archive/modular-debian. Modular-Debian served first as a place where anti-systemd former Debianistas could vent, and then as a design facility for sans-systemd solutions, perhaps a Jessie Without Systemd. By years end Modular-Debian was superceded by Dng, and you'll find a lot of former Modular-Debian people on the Dng list. If anyone knows where to find the Modular-Debian archives, please post it. Throughout late 2014, I (Steve Litt) posted the Manjaro Experiments, proving that systemd could be short circuited by other inits such as runit and Epoch and OpenRC. You can see it at http://www.troubleshooters.com/linux/init/manjaro_experiments.htm . The Dng mailing list started in early November, 2014, and quickly replaced Modular-Debian as the Go To place for former Debianistas. Note the famous and historical Don't panic and keep forking Debian™! post (https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20141127.212941.f55acc3a.en.html) to reassure everyone after Ian Jackson's GR rubber stamped systemd. That was the post that got things rolling! Running parallel to all of this was the activity going on in the various non-traditional init mailing lists: * supervis...@list.skarnet.org * several more These people are moving toward making easy to install and admin inits based on daemontools, such as s6, runit, perp, and nosh. They are moving toward a user-easy init script language across several or all of them. Every one of them has a brain the size of Texas. The preceding is what I know/remember about the evolution of Debian-Fork, sans-systemd Debian, etc. SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Call for factoids on the Debian fork
One thing that has always bugged me was that Debian was supposed to be *the* distro that runs on just about anything from an embedded system to a supercomputer, from an old dumb terminal or mainframe to a fairly recent laptop (well kinda, drivers etc). It was even one of the reasons the default installer is text-based: it should run over a serial console, etc. Debian supported the most architectures, not just x86 (unfortunately it dropped a few recently). Does systemd even support all this? And what will happen to the ISS[1]? It's saddening. Oh well, hre's Devuan! [1] http://phys.org/news/2013-05-international-space-station-laptop-migration.html On Sat, Apr 4, 2015 at 9:36 PM, Steve Litt sl...@troubleshooters.com wrote: On Fri, 03 Apr 2015 19:56:48 -0300 hellekin helle...@dyne.org wrote: Hello dears, one of the current tasks of the Devuan Editors is to gather facts about the Debian fork in order to write a compelling story to be told on debianfork.org. This domain will hopefully be the place to deflect and defuse any troll about the Debian fork and systemd, in order to focus devuan.org on the actual distro work. Any help is welcome to gather original emails, timelines, witness accounts, key people and facts. The objective, I repeat, is to gather facts, not gossip, and not opinions or feelings about systemd. What I want to do is reply to the question: why did Devuan fork Debian? in the most sensible way possible. (Incidentally, how it happened may also be relevant ;o) If you'd like to get involved in the writing process, please idle on #devuan-www on Freenode IRC. Thank you for your attention and for your help. Hi hellekin, Of course, the Debian-User (https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2014/). Here you can see what's often called the Debian systemd wars, from about 7/1/2014 through the rest of the year. You can get a feel for why people continued to try to force Debian to provide choice, and the feeling of helplessness. The Debian-devel list (https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/) shows the systemd discussions from the start. The CTTE deliberations, which I consider the original crime (but you asked for facts, not opinions), is https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=727708 At https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2014/09/msg01367.html , you see Don Armstrong boasting about voting for systemd, and pointing to his vote and explanation. In September 2014, Joel Roth had created a mailing list called Modular-Debian, whose archives are at https://www.freelists.org/archive/modular-debian. Modular-Debian served first as a place where anti-systemd former Debianistas could vent, and then as a design facility for sans-systemd solutions, perhaps a Jessie Without Systemd. By years end Modular-Debian was superceded by Dng, and you'll find a lot of former Modular-Debian people on the Dng list. If anyone knows where to find the Modular-Debian archives, please post it. Throughout late 2014, I (Steve Litt) posted the Manjaro Experiments, proving that systemd could be short circuited by other inits such as runit and Epoch and OpenRC. You can see it at http://www.troubleshooters.com/linux/init/manjaro_experiments.htm . The Dng mailing list started in early November, 2014, and quickly replaced Modular-Debian as the Go To place for former Debianistas. Note the famous and historical Don't panic and keep forking Debian™! post (https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20141127.212941.f55acc3a.en.html) to reassure everyone after Ian Jackson's GR rubber stamped systemd. That was the post that got things rolling! Running parallel to all of this was the activity going on in the various non-traditional init mailing lists: * supervis...@list.skarnet.org * several more These people are moving toward making easy to install and admin inits based on daemontools, such as s6, runit, perp, and nosh. They are moving toward a user-easy init script language across several or all of them. Every one of them has a brain the size of Texas. The preceding is what I know/remember about the evolution of Debian-Fork, sans-systemd Debian, etc. SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng -- On the internet, nobody knows you're a dog. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Call for factoids on the Debian fork
On Sat, 4 Apr 2015 23:43:24 +0100 KatolaZ kato...@freaknet.org wrote: On Sat, Apr 04, 2015 at 04:36:11PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote: [cut] The Dng mailing list started in early November, 2014, and quickly replaced Modular-Debian as the Go To place for former Debianistas. Note the famous and historical Don't panic and keep forking Debian™! post (https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20141127.212941.f55acc3a.en.html) to reassure everyone after Ian Jackson's GR rubber stamped systemd. That was the post that got things rolling! A small correction on this point: I am pretty sure that the DNG mailing list started right after the discussion about the GR started, i.e. around the 20th of October. The mail I got from Mailman is dated October 22nd 2014, but I think that there were already a few people in the ML when I arrived. At that time everybody was just hoping that, in the end, the ML (and the fork) would not be necessary at all... My2Cents KatolaZ Thanks KatolaZ, The earliest I could find was https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/mindex/d...@20140901.04..en.html . Probably archives for the first few weeks aren't available for one reason or another, or I don't know where to find them. SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[Dng] Call for factoids on the Debian fork
Hello dears, one of the current tasks of the Devuan Editors is to gather facts about the Debian fork in order to write a compelling story to be told on debianfork.org. This domain will hopefully be the place to deflect and defuse any troll about the Debian fork and systemd, in order to focus devuan.org on the actual distro work. Any help is welcome to gather original emails, timelines, witness accounts, key people and facts. The objective, I repeat, is to gather facts, not gossip, and not opinions or feelings about systemd. What I want to do is reply to the question: why did Devuan fork Debian? in the most sensible way possible. (Incidentally, how it happened may also be relevant ;o) If you'd like to get involved in the writing process, please idle on #devuan-www on Freenode IRC. Thank you for your attention and for your help. == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
