Re: [Dng] Debian Dev: anti-systemd people hate women; thus respectable people should not support anti-systemd stance.
My response to Coker's ill-conceived rant is still awaiting moderation on his blog. I'm posting it here verbatim: Philip Lacroix Your comment is awaiting moderation. May 3, 2015 at 23:31 Dear Mr Coker If your intention was to honestly analize the social issue related to SystemD, then you trashed a good opportunity with your own hands, by posting an ambiguous, childish, superficial and offensive statement about users who dislike SystemD and allegedly hate women. That was not a very intelligent move on your part. It doesn't make sense, now, to talk about correlations and try to say that people have misunderstood you. If you want to be involved in a constructive conversation, then please don't post stupid things like this in the first place, don't spread FUD, stop calling hater everyone who doesn't agree with your opinion, and don't play the victim when people respond to you accordingly. I've seen quite a bit of this on the Internet, and it's always the same pattern. Now what's next? Are we going to be informed that there's a correlation between people who dislike SystemD and those who eat children, dance with the Devil and drink turnip juice? Support your SystemD init if you like it, but please refrain from writing manipulative rants and insults about people who don't, especially if they are doing something useful and constructive on their own. Who are you to tell people what they should do? Who are you, for instance, to denigrate the Devuan project, its volunteers, and everything else that doesn't match your personal opinion about init systems and project forks? The Debian technical committee decided? OK, then let other people make *their own* decisions, as the Debian committee is not the axis mundi. Best regards, Philip Lacroix Am 02.05.2015 18:03 schrieb DLL Hell: etbe.coker.com.au/2015/04/26/anti-systemd-people/ [... rant ...] ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Debian Dev: anti-systemd people hate women; thus respectable people should not support anti-systemd stance.
On 03/05/2015 06:44, Steve Litt wrote: What is the motivation for a person to join the mailing list of an anti-systemd, pro-choice distro, and start spouting pro-systemd stuff? What kind of a use of time is that? Why do several people keep doing this? What could they possibly gain? Be fair. There are also people who go and troll pro-systemd mailing-lists. Not as many, but the ratio to the total amount of anti-systemd or pro-systemd people is about the same in both camps. Trolling isn't a matter of opinion, but of immaturity, which is shared equally and cannot be fought with rationality, so don't devote too much brain time to wondering about its reasons. :) -- Laurent ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Debian Dev: anti-systemd people hate women; thus respectable people should not support anti-systemd stance.
dear Steve, On Sun, 03 May 2015, Steve Litt wrote: = # Anti-systemd people hate women intellectual DLL Hell :0: * From.*trillodllh...@nativeweb.net * ^(To|Cc).*dng@lists.dyne.org $GARBAGE = thanks. Besides, Dyne.org policy for participation is not just against any discrimination on gender, but queer-friendly. As long as Devuan is bound to our organization, this will be a necessary condition. To this add that Devuan's community has already a certain gender diversity among its leaders which we expect only to grow in the future. we will not tollerate any aggression of this sort to the communities we host, all what has been posted here has to be regarded as an aggression and will be acted upon, within reasonable time considering the weekend. we are still not applying a moderation filter on all emails coming in. ciao signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Debian Dev: anti-systemd people hate women; thus respectable people should not support anti-systemd stance.
On Sat, 2 May 2015 09:03:30 -0700 DLL Hell trillodllh...@nativeweb.net wrote: anti-systemd people hate women; thus respectable people should not support anti-systemd stance. You forgot to say that anti-systemd people also love to hurt small animals, that they claim the holocaust of 12 million killed by the Nazi did not happen, and that they are all G.W.Bush-hating Democrats... Cheers, Ron. -- Puella Rigensis ridebat Quam tigris in tergo vehebat; Exsterna profecta, Interna revecta, Risusque cum tigre manebat. -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org -- ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Debian Dev: anti-systemd people hate women; thus respectable people should not support anti-systemd stance.
* On 2015 02 May 23:47 -0500, Steve Litt wrote: On Sat, 2 May 2015 09:03:30 -0700 DLL Hell trillodllh...@nativeweb.net wrote: For some reason the men in the Linux community who hate women the most seem to have taken a dislike to systemd. I understand that being “conservative” might mean not wanting changes to software as well as not wanting changes to inequality in society but even so this surprised me. First, the general, rhetorical question, for everybody (not for DLL-Hell): What is the motivation for a person to join the mailing list of an anti-systemd, pro-choice distro, and start spouting pro-systemd stuff? What kind of a use of time is that? Why do several people keep doing this? What could they possibly gain? These are rhetorical questions, of course: I hope this thread dies quickly, and that Mr. Hell is left to experience the silence of a breezeless rural Wisconsin summer afternoon. Steve, DLL-Hell was quoting a blog post of Russell Coker and his reply comments. The URL was ill formed but included at the top of his message to this list: http://etbe.coker.com.au/2015/04/26/anti-systemd-people/ As I still read Planet Debian from to time, I saw Russell's post in Liferea and read about half before I lost interest. I didn't read far enough to encounter his intellectual non sequitur equating a technical objection to a piece of software to a social/legal/economic issue championed by all manner of SJWs these days. Apparently anyone can jump to a conclusion and be comfortable with it while pointing fingers at the other side for doing the same. Everything in the email to this list that shows etb: was written by Russell not DLL Hell as comparing the URL above to the OP of this thread shows. But speaking of uses of time, to maximize mine, I did this: = # Anti-systemd people hate women intellectual DLL Hell :0: * From.*trillodllh...@nativeweb.net * ^(To|Cc).*dng@lists.dyne.org $GARBAGE = I don't know who DLL Hell is, although I have suspicions. From that post I really don't know his agenda as all but one or two sentences were originally written by Russell Coker, a prominent Debian Developer. Your recipe, although instructive (after 16 years of using it I really need to get a better handle on Procmail), is, IMO, unfair to DLL Hell at this time. Also, I doubt Russell will be posting here. - Nate -- The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true. Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[Dng] Debian Dev: anti-systemd people hate women; thus respectable people should not support anti-systemd stance.
etbe.coker.com.au/2015/04/26/anti-systemd-people/ Anti-Systemd People For the Technical People This post isn’t really about technology, I’ll cover the technology briefly skip to the next section if you aren’t interested in Linux programming or system administration. I’ve been using the Systemd init system for a long time, I first tested it in 2010 [1]. I use Systemd on most of my systems that run Debian/Wheezy (which means most of the Linux systems I run which aren’t embedded systems). Currently the only systems where I’m not running Systemd are some systems on which I don’t have console access, while Systemd works reasonably well it wasn’t a standard init system for Debian/Wheezy so I don’t run it everywhere. That said I haven’t had any problems with Systemd in Wheezy, so I might have been too paranoid. I recently wrote a blog post about systemd, just some basic information on how to use it and why it’s not a big deal [2]. I’ve been playing with Systemd for almost 5 years and using it in production for almost 2 years and it’s performed well. The most serious bug I’ve found in systemd is Bug #774153 which causes a Wheezy-Jessie upgrade to hang until you run “systemctl daemon-reexec” [3]. I know that some people have had problems with systemd, but any piece of significant software will cause problems for some people, there are bugs in all software that is complex enough to be useful. However the fact that it has worked so well for me on so many systems suggests that it’s not going to cause huge problems, it should be covered in the routine testing that is needed for a significant deployment of any new version of a distribution. I’ve been using Debian for a long time. The transitions from libc4 to libc5 and then libc6 were complex but didn’t break much. The use of devfs in Debian caused some issues and then the removal of devfs caused other issues. The introduction of udev probably caused problems for some people too. Doing major updates to Debian systems isn’t something that is new or which will necessarily cause significant problems, I don’t think that the change to systemd by default compares to changing from a.out binaries to ELF binaries (which required replacing all shared objects and executables). The Social Issue of the Default Init Recently the Debian technical committee determined that Systemd was the best choice for the default init system in Debian/Jessie (the next release of Debian which will come out soon). Decisions about which programs should be in the default install are made periodically and it’s usually not a big deal. Even when the choice is between options that directly involve the user (such as the KDE and GNOME desktop environments) it’s not really a big deal because you can just install a non-default option. One of the strengths of Debian has always been the fact that any Debian Developer (DD) can just add any new package to the archive if they maintain it to a suitable technical standard and if copyright and all other relevant laws are respected. Any DD who doesn’t like any of the current init systems can just package a new one and upload it. Obviously the default option will get more testing, so the non-default options will need more testing by the maintainer. This is particularly difficult for programs that have significant interaction with other parts of the system, I’ve had difficulties with this over the course of 14 years of SE Linux development but I’ve also found that it’s not an impossible problem to solve. It’s generally accepted that making demands of other people’s volunteer work is a bad thing, which to some extent is a reasonable position. There is a problem when this is taken to extremes, Debian has over 1000 developers who have to work together so sometimes it’s a question of who gets to do the extra work to make the parts of the distribution fit together. The issue of who gets to do the work is often based on what parts are the defaults or most commonly used options. For my work on SE Linux I often have to do a lot of extra work because it’s not part of the default install and I have to make my requests for changes to other packages be as small and simple as possible. So part of the decision to make Systemd be the default init is essentially a decision to impose slightly more development effort on the people who maintain SysVInit if they are to provide the same level of support – of course given the lack of overall development on SysVInit the level of support provided may decrease. It also means slightly less development effort for the people who maintain Systemd as developers of daemon packages MUST make them work with it. Another part of this issue is the fact that DDs who maintain daemon packages need to maintain init.d scripts (for SysVInit) and systemd scripts, presumably most DDs will have a preference for one init system and do less testing for the other one. Therefore the choice of systemd as
Re: [Dng] Debian Dev: anti-systemd people hate women; thus respectable people should not support anti-systemd stance.
Well, I'll comment on a couple points, since the material you quoted is rather misleading at best. Full disclosure: My only associations with the VUA are (1) subscribing to this list; (2) using the devuan repositories, and (3) having an account on the devuan gitlab, which I have only used to mirror a single repository containing packaging for mdev. I have used Debian and Ubuntu in the past, but I was only active in the Debian User Forums, the Ubuntu Forums, and on Launchpad (I have not been involved in Debian development beyond commenting on/filing a very few bug reports, but would be technically capable, as I've had a couple PPAs). I am also involved in multiple unrelated projects where the community is decidedly opposed to systemd (musl, busybox, toybox, puppy), and in one where there are multiple technical barriers to using systemd (Alpine Linux: grsec is the default kernel, musl is the libc). * The laptop for a developer (pieced together from personal knowledge and comments here): Dima Krasner (Iguleder on the Puppy Linux forums) describes himself as an independent RD freelancer; he has done a lot of work related to Puppy Linux, including Debian-based editions of Puppy. He was *not* one of the original VUAs or other participants in the fork process. His latest project before Devuan was announced was a vaguely Puppy-like independent distro, built from source for i486/32 megabyte systems (it may have been 20 megabytes minimum): in other words, aimed at *bare minimum* hardware. I can't tell for sure what hardware he had, but I would be rather surprised if it was significantly over 1.6 GHz (based on the minimal specs he was aiming at). As soon as the Devuan fork announcement was out, he started working on a stub library, then came up with a shim to use software compiled for logind with consolekit2 (loginkitd) The most productive approach for testing system software is to fire up a vm, which can be *extrememly* slow with limited hardware. Possibly for this reason, the VUAs agreed to get him a new laptop for testing and development of loginkitd. * MikeeeUSA: There have been occasional posts from some individuals which resembled MikeeeUSA's rants. Said individuals have been flamed, banned, or possibly ignored; the first such poster accused the list in general of being SJWs, and tried to flame me when I requested that he moderate his language, saying that the New Testament was feminist. (In case you don't see the irony, I'm a Pentecostal/Fundamentalist Christian, and am generally disgusted with most feminists...and all MRAs.) There have also been some posts in technical threads directing vulgarities at systemd and its supporters as such; the reaction to these has varied from ignoring or *lightly* criticizing them to full agreement. Personally, I wish that this would stop: obscenity says litle beyond who the speaker is, especially about the target, though perhaps it's excusable to acknowledge the stupidity that some code has. (Insult the *code* if needed; not the coder, and even more certainly not the users.) I try to delete mails and threads that end up like this. Thanks, Isaac Dunham ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Debian Dev: anti-systemd people hate women; thus respectable people should not support anti-systemd stance.
Sorry, for my input here, but the title says nothing but laughable bullshit. There is no evidence anywhere scientific or not that being anti-systemd makes you a woman hater. I'm anti-systemd and have been happily married for 12 years. This seems more of a spin mastering by radicals wanting to push systemd and make the opposition seem to be the bad guys. This actually sounds like the same Lennart brown-noser who publishes a FreeBSD hate blog called The Truth about BSD. The only thing we do hate is the constant pandering of bullshit coming from the pro-systemd crowd and the constant rhetoric we face regarding sound and sane projects being cancelled, forcibly deprecated without merit or reason, and continual parading of hipsterisms and low brow tactics coming from the systemd cabal, while the rest of the community is being forced to fork deprecated projects to revive them for our own usage. In short... nobody wants, likes, or is willing to tolerate cheap hipster fadware. We all know still how bad certain software has been and still continues to be from the systemd authors. Udev still has a host of problems with rules and duplication issues of auto-generated rules conflicting each other, and systemd still has it's hiccups and crashes, especially with journalled file systems like JFS, EXT4, BTRFS, etc. where the system hangs during halt phases and the system is still executing code while the shutdown sequence is trying to move on resulting is an improperly dismounted file system during shutdown that causes massive corruption to systemd-journald's binary logs. Plus, on top of that Lennart and crew have been reluctant to admit there is a problem and been willing to fix it. (To be perfectly honest we actually found a fix on Slackware and LFS both to correct journalled file systems improperly shutting down (such as JFS) during writebacks using sysvinit, runit, etc. by using procps-ng's pkill application in conjunction with sv, killall5, etc. by executing killall5 or sv (in the kill mode) first, then turning around and running pkill to collapse the remainder of the process tree exiting all processes before the /(root) file system is remounted in read-only mode. If this was available to systemd it would fix everything, but Lennart keeps his fingers in his ears going La-la-la!!! when he's been told of the issue numerous times and a plethora of patches and fixes submitted and expunged and banned from the tree.) My 2 cents, but this stupidity has gone on for far too long. I am getting to the point that we need a full split of the Linux community, possibly even the kernel, or have people who want a Microsoft-like GNU OS (which seems to be the ultimate goal of systemd to mimic svchost) to go help develop and promote ReactOS more. Enough seriously, is getting to be enough with these people. Sorry for the rant, but damn, Jim Date: Sat, 2 May 2015 15:49:51 -0700 From: ibid...@gmail.com To: trillodllh...@nativeweb.net CC: dng@lists.dyne.org; linux-ker...@vger.kernel.org Subject: Re: [Dng] Debian Dev: anti-systemd people hate women; thus respectable people should not support anti-systemd stance. Well, I'll comment on a couple points, since the material you quoted is rather misleading at best. Full disclosure: My only associations with the VUA are (1) subscribing to this list; (2) using the devuan repositories, and (3) having an account on the devuan gitlab, which I have only used to mirror a single repository containing packaging for mdev. I have used Debian and Ubuntu in the past, but I was only active in the Debian User Forums, the Ubuntu Forums, and on Launchpad (I have not been involved in Debian development beyond commenting on/filing a very few bug reports, but would be technically capable, as I've had a couple PPAs). I am also involved in multiple unrelated projects where the community is decidedly opposed to systemd (musl, busybox, toybox, puppy), and in one where there are multiple technical barriers to using systemd (Alpine Linux: grsec is the default kernel, musl is the libc). * The laptop for a developer (pieced together from personal knowledge and comments here): Dima Krasner (Iguleder on the Puppy Linux forums) describes himself as an independent RD freelancer; he has done a lot of work related to Puppy Linux, including Debian-based editions of Puppy. He was *not* one of the original VUAs or other participants in the fork process. His latest project before Devuan was announced was a vaguely Puppy-like independent distro, built from source for i486/32 megabyte systems (it may have been 20 megabytes minimum): in other words, aimed at *bare minimum* hardware. I can't tell for sure what hardware he had, but I would be rather surprised if it was significantly over 1.6 GHz (based on the minimal specs he was aiming at). As soon as the Devuan fork announcement was out, he started working on a stub library, then came up
Re: [Dng] Debian Dev: anti-systemd people hate women; thus respectable people should not support anti-systemd stance.
On Sat, 2 May 2015 09:03:30 -0700 DLL Hell trillodllh...@nativeweb.net wrote: For some reason the men in the Linux community who hate women the most seem to have taken a dislike to systemd. I understand that being “conservative” might mean not wanting changes to software as well as not wanting changes to inequality in society but even so this surprised me. First, the general, rhetorical question, for everybody (not for DLL-Hell): What is the motivation for a person to join the mailing list of an anti-systemd, pro-choice distro, and start spouting pro-systemd stuff? What kind of a use of time is that? Why do several people keep doing this? What could they possibly gain? These are rhetorical questions, of course: I hope this thread dies quickly, and that Mr. Hell is left to experience the silence of a breezeless rural Wisconsin summer afternoon. But speaking of uses of time, to maximize mine, I did this: = # Anti-systemd people hate women intellectual DLL Hell :0: * From.*trillodllh...@nativeweb.net * ^(To|Cc).*dng@lists.dyne.org $GARBAGE = SteveT Steve Litt April 2015 featured book: Twenty Eight Tales of Troubleshooting http://www.troubleshooters.com/28 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
