Re: [DNG] OT: Degree?

[Hendrik Boom]

On Sat, Nov 14, 2015 at 11:16:22AM +0300, Mitt Green wrote:
> Thank you, Simon.
> 
> I'll probably get my second degree as CS,
> I'm currently in a different (non-tech) university.
> I hope money we'll pay worth it. The good thing
> is that you don't need to pass exams one more time,
> they will only ask for an interview. And also it lasts three years
> instead of four to get the second bachelor degree.

I advise combining practical experience with studies.  Each will help 
you with the other.

There are several ways to go about this.

(1) Enrolling in a university that offers a co-op program.  Here you 
will be spending alternate terms studying and working at various 
internships.  The work experience will help you understand the 
coursework in greater depth, and the coursework will help you with some 
of the work projects.  I once taught at such a university, and the 
co-op students were often the best because of their practical 
experience.

(2) Start programming before you go to university.  This could be a job 
(if you find someone to hire you) or a project of your own (yes, there 
are good books for the autodidact).  Those who taught themselves and 
have a lively curiosity about everything related are oftern the best in 
the field.  Or find an open-source project that interests you and find 
something to do that might help them.

You don't have to finish your first degree to start this.

My oldest son wrote a video game in high school as his personal 
project.  He was pretty well self-taught, though I did give him some 
advice as to what books he should look at.  It wasn't a great game. but 
it actually worked.  The most important advice I gave him was to keep it 
simple.  Get something to work, and work reliably, before you introduce 
*any* complications.  In pther words, Do the simplest thing that could 
possibly work.  There's controversy about whether this is the best way 
to approach an real-world problem, but it is an excellent way to start 
learning a technology.

You might get some inspiration at opengamearg.org, which is a site that 
encourages open-source games.  I submitted a game to their 
Liberated Pixel Cup challenge (http://opengameart.org/lpc-code-entries) 
a few years ago because I wanted to learn something about OpenGL and 
OCaml.  I advise this not because it'll be a great resume item (but it 
won't hurt) but because it will provide you with the source code for 
existing games that you can study, modify, and learn from, and because 
you'll likely find their forums at least fun.  Not to mention that you 
can play the games themselves in idle moments.

And if you havn't already started programming, may I suggest you have a 
look at How To Design Programs 
(http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/matthias/HtDP2e/), which goes with the 
Racket implementation of Scheme.  It's a language which is not the most 
popular, but is good for learning the basics, and is not simplistic.  
Scheme ca take you all the way from beginner's code to cutting-edge 
research into computer science.

You will learn many languages as you progress in your compuuting career.  
Just remember, the first one is the hardest, because you have to learn 
new ways of thinking.  ONce you have those, the others are relatively 
easy. 

> 
> Thank you all,
> 
> Mitt

-- You are truly welcome.

-- hendrik
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Re: [DNG] OT: Degree?

[Simon Hobson]

Mitt Green  wrote:

> I mean, that's something normal, neither years in the field
> nor degree won't make you smart and experienced
> (years are not equal to experience) alone, something
> has to be inside your skull.

That echoes something I wrote off-list to the OP.

Having a degree is good because a lot of large employers require it, and many 
other employers/HR agencies use it as a filter. Doesn't have to be a computer 
related one - mine is in Engineering and it's amazing how many engineering 
students don't go into engineering after graduation by choice, it's taken by 
many employers as a good grounding for many other jobs.

I do feel that a "good" basic education in "computer science" (whatever it's 
called) is good. Having a good understanding of the fundamentals means you can 
pick up and learn whatever language du jour/passing fad is. If you only ever 
learned about data storage, sorting, and so on from the perspective of a single 
high level language, then that may make it difficult to grasp other languages 
(depending on their nature of course) - the old "if all you have is a hammer, 
then every problem is a nail" issue. That doesn't mean you have to be 
proficient with pliers and screwdrivers - but if you at least know how to 
recognise when a hammer isn't the right tool then you are half way to a decent 
job.

But after that, nothing beats experience.
I was lucky in that apart from when I was leaving school, I've never had to 
compete to get any of my jobs. I started as a junior design engineer in a local 
(large, very large) engineering firm, left to set up in business with some 
friends as the local Apple dealer), found out the hard way that we had "more 
enthusiasm than business acumen", started a smaller general computer business 
with one of them, then one day I walked into the MDs office of one of our large 
customers and asked if there was any chance of a full time job. I was there for 
10 years - primarily IT (in a department of 3 1/2 people), but dealing with 
just about anything that used electricity.
When that business got driven down the plughole by the beancounters who took 
over, I was one of the many that "left" - at the time it was very painful, but 
in hindsight it was good for me. I went to see the same person (who had been 
forced out years earlier and how had fingers in many local businesses) and 
before I'd even asked, he'd outlined 3 possibilities. He more or less put me 
where I am now (general IT/Internet/small hosting company), and I've been here 
10 years.
So those two jobs came about because I asked for them, and the person i asked 
knew that I could turn my hand to many things. Sadly he died in an airplane 
accident some years ago.

But you have to get that experience first. that may mean taking any job you can 
get at first. Any junior admin, helldesk, developer, whatever job will get you 
onto the bottom rung. Take the opportunity to look around and see what 
different people do - your first choice of career may not actually be what you 
want. There is no such thing as "IT" - it's a very wide field with many 
different roles.

Watch people closely. Tend to stay away from the brash loudmouths, watch the 
quieter ones who just get one with stuff (and are probably moaning about fixing 
the sh*t left by the loudmouths) as they are probably the more professional 
ones. Take time to talk to people about what they do, why, what's good and what 
isn't.

And when you make a cockup - as you will, more than once - don't just shrug it 
off, look at what went wrong, why, and how you can avoid it again. If you have 
decent colleagues, then they'll be supportive if you're open about asking for 
advice and it will improve your reputation with them. Sadly, you will also find 
environments where openly admitted ot having made a mistake will be used 
against you - if you find yourself in one of these, then the best advice I can 
give is to get out as soon as you can as these are toxic and don't promote 
learning or good practice. In that vein, if you are a witness to someone else 
making a cockup - don't hold it against them (unless they really were stupid 
and don't want to learn from it) - but use the same process - what went wrong 
and what can you learn from it.

Lastly - get your daily Dilbert ! http://dilbert.com



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Re: [DNG] OT: Degree?

[Mitt Green]

‎Wow, this made a big impact! Thank you very much everyone,
Your experience is valuable and appreciated.

Cheers,
                  
                  Mitt 
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Re: [DNG] OT: Degree?

[Mitt Green]

Thanks, that's exactly.

I've met some people at local Linux meet, some of them
have 20 year experience, yet they don't know
that if you have a problem you can write to a mailing list.
The same dude, by the way, said that he doesn't like
sysvinit and systemd is easier and solves these problems.
Which problems, he didn't point out.

I mean, that's something normal, neither years in the field
nor degree won't make you smart and experienced
(years are not equal to experience) alone, something
has to be inside your skull.

I believe that skills should be more important in the industry.
A man at our local gym once approached me (after
an occasional talk about languages) and said that his
small firm (well, not *his* really, he works there) needs
good programmers and added that degree doesn't matter.
He added that it's hard to find *good* developers
and those Bachelors are not always *good*. But, of course,
if a man has a paper with his name on it, saying
"look, I spent four years at the university, I must be
knowing something!" then it's a good thing which
powers-up your portfolio. But alone a paper shouldn't be
*that* important.

My 0.02

Mitt
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Re: [DNG] OT: Degree?

[Jude Nelson]

> 2) Which companies (just for examples) don't require it?

Forgot to mention--my local LUG was often attended by people from local
software development firms, ISPs, and IT departments.  If you're not a
member of a LUG yet (or some other computer-related club), signing up for
one and getting to know these people is a good way to get a professional
network started :)  They can also help guide you on your future career
choices, and even help you get jobs with them.

On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 2:49 PM, Jude Nelson  wrote:

> Hi Mitt,
>
> Questions:
>> 1) Are there many people without degrees in the industry?
>>
>
> Most software engineers I know have at least a minor in computer science,
> but have at least a BS or BA in some engineering discipline if they don't
> have a BS/BA in computer science.  I have met a few really proficient
> self-taught developers, but they are the exception, and they almost always
> had a leg-up from someone else.  Every large company I have worked for
> required a degree from its software engineers.
>
>
>> 2) Which companies (just for examples) don't require it?
>>
>
> Anyone you can convince to hire you :)  I'd go for start-ups and smaller
> shops, since the hiring processes there probably won't be so impersonal as
> to automatically ignore your application simply for lack of a degree.
> Smaller shops will ask to see a portfolio of previous work (like the stuff
> on your github), or ask you to do a small week-long project with some of
> the other employees in order to judge how proficient you are when you're in
> your element.
>
>
>> 3) Are there any hobbyists around here, that earn some money from
>> coding?
>>
>> From what I've heard, universities here teach something that is
>> obsolete and is not used anymore, or simply don't teach what we do
>> here (Unix, administration, hardware...).
>>
>
> I've had experiences writing software both with and without a formal
> education.  I'm of the opinion that if you go to university in order to
> acquire a formal background in computer science, then it's worth every
> penny.  This is because a formal background helps you understand both
> theory and practice from first principles.  Once you can understand it from
> first principles, it becomes a lot easier to pick up new skills, and makes
> it possible to design long-lasting low-maintenance software that won't need
> to be rewritten from scratch every few years.  It also gives you the
> ability to look at trends in the industry and tell the difference between
> what's fundamentally new, what's a passing fad, and what's snake-oil.  Of
> course, the mileage you get out of it depends on how thorough you were in
> making sure you understand all the material.
>
> If you instead want to focus more on learning specific skills, you might
> want to consider going to a community college and getting your associate
> degree.  It's a lot less expensive than university, and faculty usually
> come from an industrial background and can share their real-world
> experiences with you.  There will almost always be more hands-on courses
> available than at university, such as on things like systems
> administration, Unix, mobile app development, game development, and
> preparation classes for particular certifications.  One nice thing about
> community college is that if you decide later that you want to go on to
> university, most universities will accept some/all of the credits you
> earned at your community college (but double-check this first!).  For
> example, both of my parents and my brother got their bachelor degrees by
> doing two years at community college and two years at university.
>
> If you do go the university route, you should go to a non-profit,
> regionally-accredited one [1], and if at all possible, you should
> physically attend (even if it means a long commute).  Also, you'd be amazed
> at how many scholarships go unclaimed each year.
>
> -Jude
>
> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regional_accreditation
>
>
>> Thanks for any kind of information,
>>
>> Mitt
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Re: [DNG] OT: Degree?

[Dima Krasner]

On Thu, 12 Nov 2015 15:02:28 + (UTC)
Mitt Green  wrote:

> Let's imagine: a guy is writing some open-source software, places it on 
> GitHub or somewhere else,
> a firm then comes up and say "hmm, we need a specialist like that, let's 
> write an email to him".
> 
> Or the same guy writes the same stuff and one day he starts thinking "hmm, 
> let me send
> the stuff I do to $company_name". And they then hire him.

Exactly what I did.

I receive job offers all the time, based on my online (personal homepage, 
GitHub, LinkedIn, etc') portfolio, although I don't have any certificates 
hanging nicely on the wall. There's a shortage of developers in my country, the 
so-called startup nation, mainly because of the cyber security startup 
companies that emerged in the last 5 years or so. Moreover, for some cultural 
reason, it's rare to see free software/open source software/Linux developers 
here, especially experienced ones, so it's a strong point.

I do software development (without any academic certifications, I'm a strict 
autodidact - a "hobbyist") for living and study for BA in philosophy and 
education in my spare time and during my daily commute. My areas of expertise 
are low-level/system programming (C, mostly) across *nix platforms, porting and 
distro development, things I got involved with at a young age, without any 
knowledge and out of sheer curiosity. When I grew older, I realized I did the 
right thing, because university does not teach those things.

I study mainly for fun, because I'm curious and generally, a nonconforming 
person. I think you don't *need* an academic degree to work in the software 
industry (although it's definitely something I recommend, because you don't 
want to get fired just because you're the only worker in your team without 
one), for three main reasons:
1) Many parts of the software engineering/computer sciences curriculum are 
(boring,) completely outdated and irrelevant. Most people don't actually use 
their academic knowledge in algebra, compiler theory and Lisp, while proper use 
of data structure and basic understanding of efficiency (even without the 
mathematical background) are extremely useful. Having a degree in CS is a 
strict requirement in many companies in my country, but most security startups 
are more than willing to hire those who have nothing but prior experience. In 
fact, some companies even encourage people to quit their studies, so they can 
work more, but that's a different story.
2) Sometimes, gaining a deeper insight into some subject may harm your 
practical skills in that field, because of the way the subject is taught 
(top-to-bottom, bottom-to-top, etc') and experienced. I've worked with many 
(bright) people with a master's degree in CS, who had trouble in day-to-day 
situations. Instead of googling "general purpose compression library" or doing 
man -k compress, they would prefer to implement trivial RLE, Deflate or another 
algorithm they know by name only, through university (leveraging their 
amazingly limited experience in C, of course). I was surprised to see that 
their problem solving skills, horizontal knowledge (i.e confusion and 
embarrassment when someone else used terms like "GCC", "Clang", "JIT", "inline" 
or "strip" in a conversation about compilers), familiarity with geek/hacker 
culture (i.e even trivial things being aware of Distrowatch, LWN or glibc) and 
ability to think creatively were *so* limited compared to those of my 
autodidact colleagues. I'm not saying that's the norm - this could be only a 
local problem, but it proves my point: some people with great potential that 
enter the academia lose something along the way.
3) Of course, getting that degree requires time, money, hard work, dedication 
and sacrifice, especially if you intend to work (even in a part-time job) 
during these years. Also, you'll need motivation. Many friends of mine decided 
to quit their studies because they realized they *already have* a good salary 
in a nice company, a nice car, somewhere to live, etc'. That's the best way to 
lose motivation, so I decided not to suffer: just study the subject that 
interests me the most, even if won't bring good any job opportunities in the 
future.

I hope you find my point of view interesting.

Dima

-- 
Dima Krasner 

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Re: [DNG] OT: Degree?

[Jude Nelson]

Hi Mitt,

Questions:
> 1) Are there many people without degrees in the industry?
>

Most software engineers I know have at least a minor in computer science,
but have at least a BS or BA in some engineering discipline if they don't
have a BS/BA in computer science.  I have met a few really proficient
self-taught developers, but they are the exception, and they almost always
had a leg-up from someone else.  Every large company I have worked for
required a degree from its software engineers.


> 2) Which companies (just for examples) don't require it?
>

Anyone you can convince to hire you :)  I'd go for start-ups and smaller
shops, since the hiring processes there probably won't be so impersonal as
to automatically ignore your application simply for lack of a degree.
Smaller shops will ask to see a portfolio of previous work (like the stuff
on your github), or ask you to do a small week-long project with some of
the other employees in order to judge how proficient you are when you're in
your element.


> 3) Are there any hobbyists around here, that earn some money from
> coding?
>
> From what I've heard, universities here teach something that is
> obsolete and is not used anymore, or simply don't teach what we do
> here (Unix, administration, hardware...).
>

I've had experiences writing software both with and without a formal
education.  I'm of the opinion that if you go to university in order to
acquire a formal background in computer science, then it's worth every
penny.  This is because a formal background helps you understand both
theory and practice from first principles.  Once you can understand it from
first principles, it becomes a lot easier to pick up new skills, and makes
it possible to design long-lasting low-maintenance software that won't need
to be rewritten from scratch every few years.  It also gives you the
ability to look at trends in the industry and tell the difference between
what's fundamentally new, what's a passing fad, and what's snake-oil.  Of
course, the mileage you get out of it depends on how thorough you were in
making sure you understand all the material.

If you instead want to focus more on learning specific skills, you might
want to consider going to a community college and getting your associate
degree.  It's a lot less expensive than university, and faculty usually
come from an industrial background and can share their real-world
experiences with you.  There will almost always be more hands-on courses
available than at university, such as on things like systems
administration, Unix, mobile app development, game development, and
preparation classes for particular certifications.  One nice thing about
community college is that if you decide later that you want to go on to
university, most universities will accept some/all of the credits you
earned at your community college (but double-check this first!).  For
example, both of my parents and my brother got their bachelor degrees by
doing two years at community college and two years at university.

If you do go the university route, you should go to a non-profit,
regionally-accredited one [1], and if at all possible, you should
physically attend (even if it means a long commute).  Also, you'd be amazed
at how many scholarships go unclaimed each year.

-Jude

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regional_accreditation


> Thanks for any kind of information,
>
> Mitt
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Re: [DNG] OT: Degree?

[Mitt Green]

Papers that show you are experienced? What about certifications? You pay the 
fee and here you are!


Let's imagine: a guy is writing some open-source software, places it on GitHub 
or somewhere else,
a firm then comes up and say "hmm, we need a specialist like that, let's write 
an email to him".

Or the same guy writes the same stuff and one day he starts thinking "hmm, let 
me send
the stuff I do to $company_name". And they then hire him.

There are some links I've found in the internet:
http://www.businessinsider.com/google-hiring-non-graduates-2013-6
http://www.businessinsider.com/how-google-hires-people-2013-6
https://www.quora.com/Is-it-true-that-Google-doesnt-hire-people-without-a-Masters-degree
http://venturebeat.com/2014/04/25/why-google-doesnt-care-about-college-degrees-in-5-quotes/
http://www.google.com/about/careers/lifeatgoogle/hiringprocess/

It's only in Google.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7688226

Some opinions from FB guys.

I personally believe you don't need it, I simply would like to know how true is 
that.
Companies, as far as I see, nowadays look at what you can do. not where you've 
been
studying. Then it comes, you have a degree but know pretty much nothing and thus
you clean toilets, but that guy with seven years of school knows everything and 
he's
a developer.

My two cents
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Re: [DNG] OT: Degree?

[Nuno Magalhães]

Gee i'm glad the world is united and there are no country-borders. Oh, wait...

On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 12:51 PM, Mitt Green  wrote:
> This is offtopic. I'm interested in whether college or university degree
> is necessary to work in IT industry (of any kind: admin, embedded systems
> developer, driver developer, mobile systems, consulting, hardware etc).

It depends on the country, the culture, the specific job and the
company. Here, you can do without a degree if you a) have a few years'
experience (although quantity is never quality but i'm not the one
hiring) or b) you have an interesting portfolio of some kind (you
commit a lot to an open source project, you have your own github
projects, etc). Or both.

If you have none, then a degree is almost mandatory.

>
> Questions:
> 1) Are there many people without degrees in the industry?
Mostly older folks i guess. Or helpdesk people.

> 2) Which companies (just for examples) don't require it?
I'd say government companies do require it, everything else is
per-company per-job basis.

> 3) Are there any hobbyists around here, that earn some money from coding?
Not i.

Cheers,
Nuno
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Re: [DNG] OT: Degree?

[Linux O'Beardly]

When it comes to the IT field, it's more about experience and production
than formal education.  Let's remember that many of the visionaries in the
tech industry have little formal education.  (i.e. Gates, Jobs,
Zuckerberg)  I, personally, was trained as a systems engineer at the US
Marine Corps Computer Science School; which ironically, taught us no
Computer Science, only operations oriented training.  However, I will say a
milestone in getting jobs today, and one that I now personally struggle
with after having been in the top echelon of my industry for the last 15
years, is that as a Systems Admin, Systems Engineer, Network Admin, or any
IT Operations professional, you now have to be able to code.  With the
proliferation of config mgmt tools like Ansible, Salt Stack, Puppet, and
Chef, if you can't write code, there is no place for you in the industry.
I'm limping along relying on knowing enough Ruby to use Chef and using a
lot of Ansible since it will basically uses shell script wrapped in what I
believe is a Python backend.  Nonetheless, the IT industry is the last
bastion in which what you can do matters more than the fact you were able
to completely what is going to an almost completely useless degree.  The
exception to the "useless degree" statement would be if your degree was in
some hard science that either focuses on CS, like CS, CE, or EE, or
requires an ample amounts of coding, like most physics programs do now; but
I digress.  Nonetheless, bottom line, a degree is a inconsequential as long
as you have the skills and the work history to back it up.

Linux O'Beardly
@LinuxOBeardly
http://o.beard.ly
linux.obear...@gmail.com

On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 11:05 AM, Jason Taylor 
wrote:

> Starting now, it's probably more necessary than it was 10, 15, 20 years
> ago.  In my entire time in IT, I can count all the people I've ever meet
> that were born and raised in the U.S.* and with an IT degree on one hand.
> I've meet plenty with all sorts of other degrees: geology, philosophy,
> medical, you name it.  In nearly 20 years I've only ever had one company
> tell me that a degree was an absolute requirement for working there.  That
> was this year, so things may be changing.
>
> I don't have any experience with it, but I'd imagine that if you're
> looking to do something like actually design new hardware, you'd have to
> have a degree unless you're going to go entrepreneurial.
>
> * If you're looking to work on an H1B or similar, I suspect a degree is a
> hard requirement.
>
> On 11/12/2015 7:51 AM, Mitt Green wrote:
>
>> Hi everyone‎,
>>
>> This is offtopic. I'm interested in whether college or university degree
>> is necessary to work in IT industry (of any kind: admin, embedded systems
>> developer, driver developer, mobile systems, consulting, hardware etc).
>>
>> Questions:
>> 1) Are there many people without degrees in the industry?
>> 2) Which companies (just for examples) don't require it?
>> 3) Are there any hobbyists around here, that earn some money from
>> coding?
>>
>>  From what I've heard, universities here teach something that is
>> obsolete and is not used anymore, or simply don't teach what we do
>> here (Unix, administration, hardware...).
>>
>> Thanks for any kind of information,
>>
>> Mitt
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>
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Re: [DNG] OT: Degree?

[Jason Taylor]

Starting now, it's probably more necessary than it was 10, 15, 20 years 
ago.  In my entire time in IT, I can count all the people I've ever meet 
that were born and raised in the U.S.* and with an IT degree on one 
hand.  I've meet plenty with all sorts of other degrees: geology, 
philosophy, medical, you name it.  In nearly 20 years I've only ever had 
one company tell me that a degree was an absolute requirement for 
working there.  That was this year, so things may be changing.


I don't have any experience with it, but I'd imagine that if you're 
looking to do something like actually design new hardware, you'd have to 
have a degree unless you're going to go entrepreneurial.


* If you're looking to work on an H1B or similar, I suspect a degree is 
a hard requirement.


On 11/12/2015 7:51 AM, Mitt Green wrote:

Hi everyone‎,

This is offtopic. I'm interested in whether college or university degree
is necessary to work in IT industry (of any kind: admin, embedded systems
developer, driver developer, mobile systems, consulting, hardware etc).

Questions:
1) Are there many people without degrees in the industry?
2) Which companies (just for examples) don't require it?
3) Are there any hobbyists around here, that earn some money from
coding?

 From what I've heard, universities here teach something that is
obsolete and is not used anymore, or simply don't teach what we do
here (Unix, administration, hardware...).

Thanks for any kind of information,

Mitt
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Re: [DNG] OT: Degree?

[Steve Litt]

On Thu, 12 Nov 2015 15:51:23 +0300
Mitt Green  wrote:

> 
> Hi everyone‎,
> 
> This is offtopic. I'm interested in whether college or university
> degree is necessary to work in IT industry (of any kind: admin,
> embedded systems developer, driver developer, mobile systems,
> consulting, hardware etc).
> 
> Questions:
> 1) Are there many people without degrees in the industry?
Yes.


> 2) Which companies (just for examples) don't require it?
My experience is small companies whose HR departments are overshadowed
by the owner who writes the checks either don't require it, or you can
see the right person to get it waived. Big organizations: If they have
a degree requirement and your resume says you don't have a degree, it
goes right in the trash can, and you have zero percent chance of
getting the job.

A couple more things. My guess is that if you don't get a degree, this
will limit your prospects for the rest of your life. There will be some
jobs where you get instantly deleted, even if you just wrote the latest
and greatest mobile app.

On the other hand, unless you're very rich, the debt incurred getting
the degree will limit your prospects for the next decade or so, and may
lead to lower salaries and higher workloads because you're too desperate
during salary negotiation. 

If you're willing to work for small companies, I think there's always a
place for a non-degreed person. And of course, you can always go into
business for yourself.

You know when I'd start looking to go to college? When you start seeing
gaps in your foundational skillset --- not the language de-jour, but
your foundational software knowledge. Basic algorithms, data structures
and object principles. When you need to be able to predict the
performance of various sort routines. That kind of thing. I mean, when
you're really into it, when you really love it. When you're like that,
you'll be the top student in the class, you'll do extra credit
projects, you'll rub elbows with the top students and faculty in your
school, and you'll get your money's worth.

Obviously, all of this is my opinion.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
November 2015 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques
 of the Successful Technologist
http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques
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