Re: [DNG] Purchasing a new computer/laptop
On Fri, 29 Jan 2016 15:30:13 +0800, Brad wrote in message <56ab1505.7080...@fnarfbargle.com>: > I've snipped the remainder of your reply because personally I could > not make head nor tail of what you were on about and it looked like a > steaming pile of misdirected political ..yeah, quite like groklaw.net and devuan... ;oD -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Purchasing a new computer/laptop
On 28/01/16 11:15, Arnt Karlsen wrote: On Thu, 28 Jan 2016 10:05:08 +0800, Brad wrote in message <56a97754.7050...@fnarfbargle.com>: I'm running an early 2015 Macbook Pro. I have OSX, Windows 7 & Linux installed. I live in Linux, but on the rare occassions I need to boot into OSX or Win 7 I simply s2disk. That way when I re-boot into linux it just wakes up where it was rather than losing any context. Aside from the non-functioning camera, the only other hardware issue I routinely see is the USB SD reader mostly disappears off the bus after a system sleep. ..doesn't your early 2015 Macbook have enough opmh to run all these OS'es off e.g. https://www.qubes-os.org/ (aside from their systemd issue)? Yeah it does, but occasionally when doing things like firmware updates to peripherals it's just a shitload easier to run the native OS on the bare metal rather than fart around with USB re-direction and hardware passthrough. For those reasons, I keep a windows and OSX install on the bare metal. Sure, I *can* do it in Linux via a VM, but I'm old enough now to not want to do time consuming shit like that just because I can. Time is money. Suspend linux, boot windows, update device, resume Linux.. job done. I've snipped the remainder of your reply because personally I could not make head nor tail of what you were on about and it looked like a steaming pile of misdirected political ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Purchasing a new computer/laptop.
On Wed, 27 Jan 2016 21:14:42 +0200, Lars wrote in message <56a91722.2020...@gmail.com>: > On 01/27/2016 08:53 PM, Steve Litt wrote: > [snip] > > True story, I had a bad battery such that the instant I pulled > > out the power supply, the computer turned off. They wouldn't send > > me a new battery until I did a series of Windows tests. > > Which vendor? It would be good to know so as to steer clear of them. ..also, does the warranty policies allow you to pull out the Wintendo drive so you can fit a known good drive with a known good os? (I bought my last brand new computer in 1997. ;o) ) ..that way you can simply buy new gear with the cheapest possible disk and pour your money on good cpu, ram etc. -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Purchasing a new computer/laptop
On Thu, 28 Jan 2016 10:05:08 +0800, Brad wrote in message <56a97754.7050...@fnarfbargle.com>: > I'm running an early 2015 Macbook Pro. I have OSX, Windows 7 & Linux > installed. I live in Linux, but on the rare occassions I need to boot > into OSX or Win 7 I simply s2disk. That way when I re-boot into linux > it just wakes up where it was rather than losing any context. > > Aside from the non-functioning camera, the only other hardware issue > I routinely see is the USB SD reader mostly disappears off the bus > after a system sleep. ..doesn't your early 2015 Macbook have enough opmh to run all these OS'es off e.g. https://www.qubes-os.org/ (aside from their systemd issue)? ..coming from SuSE-5.2 in 1998, I can live with .rpms, but the systemd issue really boils down to either "they are wrong and made a death trap for people like me and Edward Snowdon", or, "we are wrong and should get ready to apologise." ..as a quiet ;o) pacifist in the early 1980ies serving in the RNoAF and our Navy, I had _NO_ idea Boris Yeltsin would climb on top of a Soviet tank in 1991 to cancel WWIII. :o) ..I didn't want any wannabe nazi genocider idiots wasting precious ammo trying to kill Russian etc democrats on my behalf, wounding them is 5 times more effective in war according to the US Army and keeps them alive, tying up personell in hospitals etc. ..on trying to build a language translator in 1994 out of the texts of the 130 language pairs in the 4 Geneva Conventions, I learned a new lesson on my own damned naîvity, I had indeed been trained as a genocider, I heard of the 4 Geneva Conventions exactly 3 times between 1981 and 1984, "common sense" in boot school, the last time, I overheard an AA commander mention "Geneva" explaining the ban on below-40mm grenades on personell to his gun crew as I passed by to pick up an AA target "drone" I had just landed. -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Purchasing a new computer/laptop
On 27/01/16 23:57, Simon Hobson wrote: Wim wrote: I still have my previous model, I suppose I ought to try a native install on it - and perhaps see if I can get OS X running as a VM. I would prefer dual booting personally, since running OSX in a VM isn't always perfect. Fi, access to external hardware over USB, like audio interfaces, doesn't work properly. Harddisks and the usual stuff like HID devices just works. I don't like dual boot. It's OK for something where all OSs are only used intermittently so it's no problem to shut down and boot into something else. It's a real PITA when the main OS is used all day long, and you've a gazilion web pages open, and need access to your mail while booted in the other OS, and ... Obviously that's a matter of personal preference. I'm running an early 2015 Macbook Pro. I have OSX, Windows 7 & Linux installed. I live in Linux, but on the rare occassions I need to boot into OSX or Win 7 I simply s2disk. That way when I re-boot into linux it just wakes up where it was rather than losing any context. Aside from the non-functioning camera, the only other hardware issue I routinely see is the USB SD reader mostly disappears off the bus after a system sleep. -- Dolphins are so intelligent that within a few weeks they can train Americans to stand at the edge of the pool and throw them fish. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Purchasing a new computer/laptop
Le 26/01/2016 23:47, Didier Kryn a écrit : I've seen that few years ago on some machines I bought for my job. I bet it was Dell Poweredge servers. Dell likes to have its own OS installed for maintenance purpose. If you don't care the maintenance, you can overwrite it, but why not dual boot? Maybe they offer that on laptops. Actually, if you buy a Dell computer "without OS", it certainly means "with FreeDOS". I was wrong: the machine which has dual boot with FreeDos is my HP laptop, the one on which I write this mail. It's an EliteBook core i7 bought 2 years ago. And this was the laptop I ordered "without OS". Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Purchasing a new computer/laptop.
This is my first email here, so... Hi all! And thanks Devuan. (And sorry for my bad English.) > Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 19:46:40 +0100 > From: Edward Bartolo > To: dng > Subject: [DNG] Purchasing a new computer/laptop. > > [...] > Call me paranoid but I am noticing big companies like Microsoft making > it very difficult to buy a computer or laptop without Windows > installed. > > Are you experiencing the same difficulty and what do you do when you > need to buy a new machine? My personal experience follow: (1) Computer (desktop/workstation) I assemble my computers by myself. First I prepare a sort of project, listing all the components I need to buy. I select *ALL* the single hardware components checking to have 100% Linux compatibility (have to run in a 100% free software system, with neither kernel binary blobs nor binary firmware modules). More, the motherboard should support BIOS (or UEFI) replacement (coreboot or libreboot). Some useful resources are: https://www.h-node.org/ http://www.coreboot.org/Supported_Motherboards https://libreplanet.org/wiki/Group:Hardware http://hplipopensource.com/hplip-web/index.html http://www.fsfla.org/ikiwiki/selibre/linux-libre/index.en.html https://www.thinkpenguin.com/catalog/desktop-computers-gnu-linux and others... Also I check compatibility between components (product specifications, forums, friends/contacts etc.). Then I bought the hardware I need components (new components or, much better, refurbished or reused components if I could find them), assemble my computer by myself and, finally, install a *100%-libre-GNU/Linux-system*! Yes. Not simple as to buy a pre-build computer coming from a big company... The cost is usually the same (and often is less), but consider the unpayable fun of the hardware+software hacking experience! (2) Laptop Assembling laptops starting from hardware components (where to found them?) is too hard... So my options are: (a) buy a new or (better) refurbished 100% libre/free (in the sense I have written above) laptop... some resources are: https://shop.libiquity.com/product/taurinus-x200 http://minifree.org/product-category/laptops/ http://minifree.org/product/libreboot-t400/ http://minifree.org/product/libreboot-x200/ https://www.thinkpenguin.com/catalog/notebook-computers-gnu-linux-2 (b) buy a new or (better) refurbished or used laptop which could be upgraded to became 100% free i.e. some good ThinkPad models would be 100% libre/free except for the wifi card (requiring a binary firmware)... so it is just to be replaced... some replacement here: https://www.thinkpenguin.com/catalog/wireless-networking-gnulinux Once I have the free hardware, again I install on my laptop a *100%-libre-GNU/Linux-system*! Regards -- al3xu5 / dotcommon Say NO to copyright, patents, trademarks and any industrial design restrictions. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Purchasing a new computer/laptop
Wim wrote: > I would take a look at that SATA cable AGAIN. These break far too often. And > when they break, they often don't break completely. Symptoms vary from weird > boot problems, to the OS going corrupt, to a general slow drive. No, definitely a "hard" fault. While trying to deal with it I swapped drives several times - with the non-Apple drives it was consistently bad, with the Apple drives it was consistently error free. > If by 750G, you mean the Seagate hybrid 750 GB drive No, both plain HDs - one Seagate, one WD. I probably tried with any random drives we had lying around at work. But as you say, getting somewhat OT now. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Purchasing a new computer/laptop.
On 01/27/2016 08:53 PM, Steve Litt wrote: [snip] > True story, I had a bad battery such that the instant I pulled > out the power supply, the computer turned off. They wouldn't send me a > new battery until I did a series of Windows tests. Which vendor? It would be good to know so as to steer clear of them. Regards, Lars ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Purchasing a new computer/laptop.
On Wed, 27 Jan 2016 04:49:59 -0500 Hendrik Boom wrote: > On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 05:57:45PM -0700, Gregory Nowak wrote: > > > > I heard that M$ is forcing the laptop makers to enable TPM, and > > prevent it from being disabled, else they aren't allowed to install > > windows. Having a choice of OS to install is great, but doesn't TPM > > mean that GNU/Linux can't be installed because TPM won't recognize > > its signature, if it is signed in the first place? So, getting a > > machine without windows on it is all well and good, but what about > > the issue of disabling TPM, or is that not an issue? > > Last I heard was that Microsoft, after requiring it to be possible to > disable secure boot to get Windows certifiication, has dropped that > requirement. I haven't heard that they now require it to stay on. This is exactly what I heard. Windows 8 compatibility required there be Secure Boot, and it be disableable. Windows 10 compatibility dropped the requirement that it be disableable. > > But there have been machines sold where you cannot turn it off and > can only install a Linux distros that Microsoft has signed, which I > believe are Redhat and Ubuntu -- for me a reason to avoid those > distros. This is the precise problem. If I were happy with Ubuntu, Redhat and Debian, this would be a non-problem. But as we've all seen in the past 18 months, big distros can go very, very wrong, and in the absence of small distros, this can create a world of hurt for people who want to rule their machines rather than the other way around. Mandatory Secure Boot pretty much forces you into Windows or a big Linux. This is why, before purchasing a machine, the #1 most vital question is: Can I turn off secure boot? If no, the machine's useless. I may start buying used machines to avoid all this stuff. > > The fact that no one that sells computers in retail stores seems to > even understand the question about TPM worried me. Why should they? They're Windows-Weenies. It's not a problem for them. It's just the tiniest bolt in a huge machine. > THe mere > existence of these recalcitrant machines provides an overwhelming > anount ot FUD into computer purchases. Even having Ubuntu > preinstalled doesn't mitigate it. Yeah, I hadn't thought of that. SteveT Steve Litt January 2016 featured book: Twenty Eight Tales of Troubleshooting http://www.troubleshooters.com/28 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Purchasing a new computer/laptop.
On Tue, 26 Jan 2016 19:46:40 +0100 Edward Bartolo wrote: > Hi All, > > Call me paranoid but I am noticing big companies like Microsoft making > it very difficult to buy a computer or laptop without Windows > installed. > > Are you experiencing the same difficulty and what do you do when you > need to buy a new machine? > > Edward Here's how *I* handle it... For desktops, I just buy the mobo, CPU and RAM from one vendor, to avoid finger pointing. In these days of Windows 10, by hook or by crook, I need to make sure the mobo bios (or whatever it's called these days) allows me to turn off secure boot, otherwise I can only use Ubuntu, Redhat, Debian, and all the other distros I would never use. For laptops, of course, I *could* buy from system76 or penguin-computing and the like, thereby guaranteeing Linux compatibility. But I don't want to pay Apple prices for PC hardware. So what I do instead, and I've done this about eight times, is go to Costco, with their 90 day, no questions asked guarantee (please ask at the counter to determine your exact store's exact policy). Using techniques garnered from the people at the ##windows IRC channel, I shrink the Windows partition, make a new partition out of the free space, and slam Linux on it. DO NOT DELETE ANY OF THE EXISTING PARTITIONS It's absolutely for sure that both wifi and UEFI boot will be a challenge: It will take awhile. But so far I've been able to do it every time except one (and that one was meant to be my child's Windows machine anyway). If you absolutely can't make the machine run Linux, use the restore partition to put the machine back the way you got it, return it to the store for your money back, and when they ask, tell them you can't use it because it can't run Linux. You notice I leave the machine as a dual-boot, which is much harder than wiping and (if the mobo allows) doing a simple MBR style Linux install. Keeping Windows is a necessity during the warranty period, because when you go to RMA the laptop, custy service will walk you through a series of Windows-only tests to determine the hardware problem. True story, I had a bad battery such that the instant I pulled out the power supply, the computer turned off. They wouldn't send me a new battery until I did a series of Windows tests. Personally, once my manufacturers warranty expires, I wipe out Windows and go 100% Linux. But that's a couple years after I buy the box. SteveT Steve Litt January 2016 featured book: Twenty Eight Tales of Troubleshooting http://www.troubleshooters.com/28 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Purchasing a new computer/laptop
2016-01-27 16:57 GMT+01:00 Simon Hobson : > Wim wrote: > > [snip] > > * Yes, the one with the faulty SATA that doesn't like 3gbps drives - you > try finding a drive these days that has a jumper for 1.5gbps operation :-( > > > > You don't need to jumper drives. I've never encountered any drive that > doesn't work with these machines. > > You have been lucky then. I've tried several, and every drive I tried did > not work (I think I must have tried about 3, different makes - including > buying another new 750G that didn't work) - it would appear to connect etc, > but once "in use" would cause constant errors. I did try the local genius > bar, and they were more helpful than I expected (2nd hand machine, out of > warranty). First off he was able to see from the service history that it > had already had a ribbon cable replacement which I gather was the usual > suspect. And he did run some tests - but as it wasn't an Apple drive he > couldn't do much more. > > I would take a look at that SATA cable AGAIN. These break far too often. And when they break, they often don't break completely. Symptoms vary from weird boot problems, to the OS going corrupt, to a general slow drive. If by 750G, you mean the Seagate hybrid 750 GB drive, I have several users with a 2008 Macbook Pro using these. I installed them and they all worked on first try. Could be worse with "revision A" Macbooks. We don't get those here in Europe. That's a US privilege. I only see them from people who bought their machine while in the USA. And I can't recollect if I ever saw an early 2008 rev. A MB Pro. > In the end, I looked at the drive model, looked up the specs, and saw that > there was a 500G version - this machine had 250 in it originally. So I kept > an eye on eBay until an Apple branded one came up and got that - and added > a second one in the optical drive bay. > There used to be a difference between Apple labeled harddisks and "ordinary" HD's. It mattered when doing AV stuff on G4 or older. I can't say there's any difference nowadays. Except for label and price :D > Incidentally it was only one or two models that had this problem - I think > mine was the first. Earlier models only supported 1.5G SATA, later models > fixed the issue. These had a 3G SATA interface which was "flaky" if urn at > 3G, but the drives Apple used were only 1.5G. It was only when people > upgraded with "other" drives that the problem showed up. > There's was fair bit of noise in the forums about it for a while. > I know. I do support for a living, with an estimated 70% of users on OSX. Most of these users are AV professionals, so they can't use Linux. A few of the web devs I support have a Debian Wheezy VM or partition. It's stil a bit better to be able to test stuff on the real thing, as OSX has some differences. > > > OSX even sends UNSAVED documents to the cloud, according to some. > > If you let it ;-) > But yes, it defaults to pressuring you to linking up with your Apple > account so it can automatically sync stuff. Most of the builtin > applications now autosave as they go along - so it's not surprising that > the autosave versions get synced. > It is amazingly hard to stop OSX from sending metadata. I don't have an icloud account, but had to rip out several background services to get Mavericks stable when doing audio recordings. > Safari also defaults to sen ding every URL you edit to Google (via Apple ?) Not via Apple. That's the one thing I"m fairly sure about. Apple is collecting data, but they will never share it with anyone else. I've been using DuckDuckGo for a long while. It's good. I also use Ghostery to block tracking. Amazingly good, if you take into account that it's made by an advertising company. - not just what you type, but the entire URL. It's also irritatingly stupid > in that it will sometimes decide that your url doesn't look like a url and > do a search or it will decide that your search term looks like a url and > fail to load it. I'm of the school where if I type into a search box I > expect it to search, and if I type in a url box I expect it to be treated > as a url - and the two boxes are different things and should be separate. > > > > I don't think legislation to keep hardware "open" will work. Legislators > tend not to understand the matter and hardware manufacturers are way too > clever bypassing laws. > > I agree. Something is only likely to happen "after the fact" if enough > people complain. I suspect that the same law that got the guy (in the link > I posted earlier) a refund and his legal costs paid might go somewhere. If > the hardware won't run an "unapproved" OS, then it might be possible to > argue that it's a form of tying - ie you can't use X unless you buy Y - > which I wasn't actually aware was specifically illegal over here. > > Now, if people go into ${shop} and buy a PC, and specifically mention that > you'll be needing to run other OSs on it, then it doesn't matter if the > sales guy knows w
Re: [DNG] Purchasing a new computer/laptop
Wim wrote: > I still have my previous model, I suppose I ought to try a native install on > it - and perhaps see if I can get OS X running as a VM. > > I would prefer dual booting personally, since running OSX in a VM isn't > always perfect. Fi, access to external hardware over USB, like audio > interfaces, doesn't work properly. Harddisks and the usual stuff like HID > devices just works. I don't like dual boot. It's OK for something where all OSs are only used intermittently so it's no problem to shut down and boot into something else. It's a real PITA when the main OS is used all day long, and you've a gazilion web pages open, and need access to your mail while booted in the other OS, and ... Obviously that's a matter of personal preference. > * Yes, the one with the faulty SATA that doesn't like 3gbps drives - you try > finding a drive these days that has a jumper for 1.5gbps operation :-( > > You don't need to jumper drives. I've never encountered any drive that > doesn't work with these machines. You have been lucky then. I've tried several, and every drive I tried did not work (I think I must have tried about 3, different makes - including buying another new 750G that didn't work) - it would appear to connect etc, but once "in use" would cause constant errors. I did try the local genius bar, and they were more helpful than I expected (2nd hand machine, out of warranty). First off he was able to see from the service history that it had already had a ribbon cable replacement which I gather was the usual suspect. And he did run some tests - but as it wasn't an Apple drive he couldn't do much more. In the end, I looked at the drive model, looked up the specs, and saw that there was a 500G version - this machine had 250 in it originally. So I kept an eye on eBay until an Apple branded one came up and got that - and added a second one in the optical drive bay. Incidentally it was only one or two models that had this problem - I think mine was the first. Earlier models only supported 1.5G SATA, later models fixed the issue. These had a 3G SATA interface which was "flaky" if urn at 3G, but the drives Apple used were only 1.5G. It was only when people upgraded with "other" drives that the problem showed up. There's was fair bit of noise in the forums about it for a while. > OSX even sends UNSAVED documents to the cloud, according to some. If you let it ;-) But yes, it defaults to pressuring you to linking up with your Apple account so it can automatically sync stuff. Most of the builtin applications now autosave as they go along - so it's not surprising that the autosave versions get synced. Safari also defaults to sending every URL you edit to Google (via Apple ?) - not just what you type, but the entire URL. It's also irritatingly stupid in that it will sometimes decide that your url doesn't look like a url and do a search or it will decide that your search term looks like a url and fail to load it. I'm of the school where if I type into a search box I expect it to search, and if I type in a url box I expect it to be treated as a url - and the two boxes are different things and should be separate. > I don't think legislation to keep hardware "open" will work. Legislators tend > not to understand the matter and hardware manufacturers are way too clever > bypassing laws. I agree. Something is only likely to happen "after the fact" if enough people complain. I suspect that the same law that got the guy (in the link I posted earlier) a refund and his legal costs paid might go somewhere. If the hardware won't run an "unapproved" OS, then it might be possible to argue that it's a form of tying - ie you can't use X unless you buy Y - which I wasn't actually aware was specifically illegal over here. Now, if people go into ${shop} and buy a PC, and specifically mention that you'll be needing to run other OSs on it, then it doesn't matter if the sales guy knows what EFI is or whether secure boot can be turned off or not - if it can't boot your OS then it's not fit for the purpose you stated when you bought it and you are entitled to a refund. Getting a full refund is really expensive for the retailer - they get a product back that they can't sell as new (and if it's mail.online they legally have to pay carriage both ways), so they will make a loss even if they eventually sell it as "grade B". So there is an opportunity to hit the retailers of such crap with costs and influence what they stock. We have no clout with manufacturers, but if (big) retailers decide not to stock things that cost them money then that will get noticed. I wouldn't want to do this to "the little guys", but IMO the big chains are fair game - and if they have a statistically significant quantity of returns then they are likely to be asking questions of the manufacturer. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.o
Re: [DNG] Purchasing a new computer/laptop
Just to clear up a few things: - The TPM chip on some Mac has never been used. It's my guess that marketing decided against it, purely for imago problems. There were a lot of reactions from ordinary users in the style of "I don't want anything on my Mac that might check if I'm running pirated software". The plan was to sign all software, something they have implemented without hardware now. 2016-01-27 12:16 GMT+01:00 Simon Hobson : > Robert Storey wrote: > > > So maybe I should ask: Have you tried installing Linux on your MacBook? > If so, how was the experience? Any advice about that? Any nonsense to deal > with similar to Microsoft's "secure boot"? (if you answered those questions > already in another post, I"m sorry, I missed it). > > > I have installed Debian, up to Wheezy on some Macs. In general, it's not a problem. Everything works, except the camera. There is NO driver for it that I'm aware of. EFI isn't a problem, even if there are no docs. Several utilities exist (DarwinDumper, fi) to read an modify it. When it comes to dual or even triple booting, RefIt works perfectly. > > Anyway, expensive though it might be, I'd consider a MacBook in the > future, especially if I could dual-boot it with Linux. > I last tried native Linux back in the G4 MacBook days - I can't say I've > tried it lately. For Linux and Windows, I either remotely access a server, > or I run a VM (I use parallels, other virt options available). Biggest > problem I have is that my current machine (Mid 2008*) is maxed out at 8G > RAM and that just isn't enough - I can get to 4 or 5G swap space used 8-O I > really need a newer one but usual problem - no money ! > > I still have my previous model, I suppose I ought to try a native install > on it - and perhaps see if I can get OS X running as a VM. > I would prefer dual booting personally, since running OSX in a VM isn't always perfect. Fi, access to external hardware over USB, like audio interfaces, doesn't work properly. Harddisks and the usual stuff like HID devices just works. > > * Yes, the one with the faulty SATA that doesn't like 3gbps drives - you > try finding a drive these days that has a jumper for 1.5gbps operation :-( > > You don't need to jumper drives. I've never encountered any drive that doesn't work with these machines. > > TBH, I'm one of a growing band who's used Apple stuff for decades > (before Mac), but getting increasingly "irritated" by their move to ever > more closed systems - not to mention their tendency to drop stuff with > little fanfare if they think it's of benefit to them. E.g., in 10.9 they > dropped Sync Services in favour of "you *WILL* sync your i[Phone|Pod|Pad] > via our cloud" (rather than just plugging in a USB cable). That backfired, > and enough iThing users kicked up enough fuss that they actually > backtracked and re-instated the service. Unfortunately, they only > re-instated what they needed for the iThings, not the whole service so 3rd > party software that relies on it (like the Missing Sync I use for my > Android phone) is broken after 10.8. > Yep. The golden cage is slowly losing it's shine, but not it's lock. OSX even sends UNSAVED documents to the cloud, according to some. > > So I have been seriously considering whether "some other make" of > hardware, running Linux native, and OS X in a VM might be better. But > comparing real specs, the hardware isn't that much cheaper - and I don't > have the cash nor the time to do it. In reality, comparing actual specs, I > don't think their hardware is all that pricey - it's more that they don't > do "cheap, low spec" machines which is what many people compare with. > AFAIK they don't provide Linux drivers (but I suspect they don't need to), > but for those wanting to run Windows, there's a utility to generate a > Windows driver disk for the machine. So they aren't really that closed in > terms of what they'll let you run. > > My latest experiment was with an older Toshiba laptop, a Pentium M 1.5 GHz with only 512 MB ram and no HD. The Toshiba harddisk adapter is missing, as the previous owner pulled the harddisks. This isn't a problem, you can find those for a couple of € on ebay, I just haven't ordered them yet. As I have a pile of those machines, it seemed interesting to do something with them. There wasn't one Linux distro that installed from CD to a USB or FW attached disk on this machine. I've tried a dozen or so, starting with Debian Wheezy. The only thing that worked with the standard installer and supported all hardware out of the box, except wireless, was FreeBSD. Unfortunately, the white sticker with the precise model is blank on all of them and Toshiba has a habit of making lots of similar models. > My biggest beef is their "closed maintenance" attitude. They only sell > spares to authorised service centres, and they impose a "no resale" > condition to stop those service centres selling on new parts - that wasn't > too bad back in the days when I part o
Re: [DNG] Purchasing a new computer/laptop.
On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 05:57:45PM -0700, Gregory Nowak wrote: > > I heard that M$ is forcing the laptop makers to enable TPM, and > prevent it from being disabled, else they aren't allowed to install > windows. Having a choice of OS to install is great, but doesn't TPM > mean that GNU/Linux can't be installed because TPM won't recognize its > signature, if it is signed in the first place? So, getting a machine > without windows on it is all well and good, but what about the issue > of disabling TPM, or is that not an issue? Last I heard was that Microsoft, after requiring it to be possible to disable secure boot to get Windows certifiication, has dropped that requirement. I haven't heard that they now require it to stay on. But there have been machines sold where you cannot turn it off and can only install a Linux distros that Microsoft has signed, which I believe are Redhat and Ubuntu -- for me a reason to avoid those distros. The fact that no one that sells computers in retail stores seems to even understand the question about TPM worried me. THe mere existence of these recalcitrant machines provides an overwhelming anount ot FUD into computer purchases. Even having Ubuntu preinstalled doesn't mitigate it. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Purchasing a new computer/laptop
Robert Storey wrote: > So maybe I should ask: Have you tried installing Linux on your MacBook? If > so, how was the experience? Any advice about that? Any nonsense to deal with > similar to Microsoft's "secure boot"? (if you answered those questions > already in another post, I"m sorry, I missed it). > > Anyway, expensive though it might be, I'd consider a MacBook in the future, > especially if I could dual-boot it with Linux. I last tried native Linux back in the G4 MacBook days - I can't say I've tried it lately. For Linux and Windows, I either remotely access a server, or I run a VM (I use parallels, other virt options available). Biggest problem I have is that my current machine (Mid 2008*) is maxed out at 8G RAM and that just isn't enough - I can get to 4 or 5G swap space used 8-O I really need a newer one but usual problem - no money ! I still have my previous model, I suppose I ought to try a native install on it - and perhaps see if I can get OS X running as a VM. * Yes, the one with the faulty SATA that doesn't like 3gbps drives - you try finding a drive these days that has a jumper for 1.5gbps operation :-( TBH, I'm one of a growing band who's used Apple stuff for decades (before Mac), but getting increasingly "irritated" by their move to ever more closed systems - not to mention their tendency to drop stuff with little fanfare if they think it's of benefit to them. E.g., in 10.9 they dropped Sync Services in favour of "you *WILL* sync your i[Phone|Pod|Pad] via our cloud" (rather than just plugging in a USB cable). That backfired, and enough iThing users kicked up enough fuss that they actually backtracked and re-instated the service. Unfortunately, they only re-instated what they needed for the iThings, not the whole service so 3rd party software that relies on it (like the Missing Sync I use for my Android phone) is broken after 10.8. So I have been seriously considering whether "some other make" of hardware, running Linux native, and OS X in a VM might be better. But comparing real specs, the hardware isn't that much cheaper - and I don't have the cash nor the time to do it. In reality, comparing actual specs, I don't think their hardware is all that pricey - it's more that they don't do "cheap, low spec" machines which is what many people compare with. AFAIK they don't provide Linux drivers (but I suspect they don't need to), but for those wanting to run Windows, there's a utility to generate a Windows driver disk for the machine. So they aren't really that closed in terms of what they'll let you run. My biggest beef is their "closed maintenance" attitude. They only sell spares to authorised service centres, and they impose a "no resale" condition to stop those service centres selling on new parts - that wasn't too bad back in the days when I part owned a dealership and our margins off list price was 32% :-), sucks now I'm an end user :-(. Not too bad if you have an older model - then there's usually supplies of cannibalised spares available. Edward Bartolo wrote: > The purpose of this mail thread is to stimulate discussion about the > subject, as it is becoming increasingly harder to purchase Linux > friendly hardware. I don't know whether the following is paranoia or > fact, but I get an uncomfortable itch when I enter a shop boasting of > having a Microsoft deal or anything similar. > > I think, the time has come for Linux users to unite, so that as a > group, they would seek some form of aggreement with hardware > manufactures, so that their OS, would not be erased from existence by > virtue of having no one producing Linux friendly hardware. "no one" is a bit wide of the mark. One thing I have noticed lately is that there is far wider availability of cross-platform drivers for stuff. While once over you'd find that the vast majority of hardware would have "support for all OSs" which actually means all versions of Windows from 95 to whatever is current for the day, I've noticed over the last few years that more and more manufacturers have Mac (OS X) and/or Linux support. IMO the only way to ensure continued support for non-Windows OSs is to support those who provide it, and query those who don't. As long as there is a market, then manufacturers will support it - as long as they know it's there. So perhaps if people actually sent feedback to manufacturers along the lines of "thank you for supporting Linux, I bought your ${product} because of this" or "I was considering ${product} but as you don't support Linux I bought something else" it might influence their priorities. Going up against MS is a non-starter. If it's a choice between selling (being generous) another 1% though Linux support, or losing some more significant amount of "marketing support" by not toeing the line with MS - that's a no brainer for any business. As to getting all Linux users to unite, ha, fat chance ! We can't even (dons fire suit and ducks) unite
Re: [DNG] Purchasing a new computer/laptop
On 01/27/2016 04:07 AM, Robert Storey wrote: > Anyway, expensive though it might be, I'd consider a MacBook in the future, > especially if I could dual-boot it with Linux. The ones from a few years ago do ok. I don't know about the newer ones, but I'd assume they'd still run ok. However, I and others I know have had problems a few years ago with the hardware failing, specifically the graphics. That on top of two bad keyboards has caused me to be looking elsewhere. I know someone that special ordered a Dell with Ubuntu pre-installed. I'm not sure if that is still possible, it was a few months ago, and historically that kind of thing comes and goes. Regards, Lars ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Purchasing a new computer/laptop
Hi Everyone, The purpose of this mail thread is to stimulate discussion about the subject, as it is becoming increasingly harder to purchase Linux friendly hardware. I don't know whether the following is paranoia or fact, but I get an uncomfortable itch when I enter a shop boasting of having a Microsoft deal or anything similar. I think, the time has come for Linux users to unite, so that as a group, they would seek some form of aggreement with hardware manufactures, so that their OS, would not be erased from existence by virtue of having no one producing Linux friendly hardware. Edward On 27/01/2016, Robert Storey wrote: > Simon Hobson > To: dng@lists.dyne.org > Subject: Re: [DNG] Purchasing a new computer/laptop > Message-ID: <319f6090-0a9b-47d4-84b3-1d1a8b297...@thehobsons.co.uk> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Robert Storey wrote: > >>> Since the Mac doesn't have a ctrl key, the following was a particularly > relevant post: > >> Really ? >> Mine does, there between the fn and alt keys - standard UK keyboard on a > MacBook >> Pro. I think it will be model/keyboard specific. You can always plug in a > different >> keyboard. > > Hi Simon. You're right, at least newer Macs have a ctrl key. Older ones > didn't, but it's been many years since I had one. I guess now the cmd key > is equivalent to the unused "Windows" key I see staring me in the face > right now. > > So maybe I should ask: Have you tried installing Linux on your MacBook? If > so, how was the experience? Any advice about that? Any nonsense to deal > with similar to Microsoft's "secure boot"? (if you answered those questions > already in another post, I"m sorry, I missed it). > > Anyway, expensive though it might be, I'd consider a MacBook in the future, > especially if I could dual-boot it with Linux. > > cheers, > Robert > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Purchasing a new computer/laptop.
On Tue, 26 Jan 2016 22:48:50 +, Simon wrote in message <42725396-018e-4453-9f90-31c2877c1...@thehobsons.co.uk>: > Mitt Green wrote: > > > They can request a refund before activating the > > license, but will actually receive a smaller amount of > > money than they spent, if some at all at all. > > I recall reading how one person, after a fight to get anything, got > much more ! This isn't the case I was thinking of, but came up while > searching : > http://www.techworld.com.au/article/414500/lenovo_ordered_pay_1920_making_french_laptop_buyer_pay_windows_too/ > > In the case I was thinking of, the guy got back the cost of a retail > copy of Windows from the same shop - on the basis that they didn't > have any lower priced option, and refused to reveal/provide any > evidence of what the actual cost of the OEM version was. IIRC it was > something like $195 or $295 ! > > So play your cards right, and be prepared to fight your corner rather > than accept what the shop tells you, and you could get more back than > you expected. ..sweet. ;o) ..the one problem with Stéphane's approach, is you risk creating case law in Microsoft et al's favor by running out of money for appeals, litigation against these bad boy billionaires is very expensive because they will appeal anything they don't like "just because" they can, and if you do not appeal a bad judgment in time, it will be left standing and form part of case law. -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Purchasing a new computer/laptop
Simon Hobson To: dng@lists.dyne.org Subject: Re: [DNG] Purchasing a new computer/laptop Message-ID: <319f6090-0a9b-47d4-84b3-1d1a8b297...@thehobsons.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Robert Storey wrote: >> Since the Mac doesn't have a ctrl key, the following was a particularly relevant post: > Really ? > Mine does, there between the fn and alt keys - standard UK keyboard on a MacBook > Pro. I think it will be model/keyboard specific. You can always plug in a different > keyboard. Hi Simon. You're right, at least newer Macs have a ctrl key. Older ones didn't, but it's been many years since I had one. I guess now the cmd key is equivalent to the unused "Windows" key I see staring me in the face right now. So maybe I should ask: Have you tried installing Linux on your MacBook? If so, how was the experience? Any advice about that? Any nonsense to deal with similar to Microsoft's "secure boot"? (if you answered those questions already in another post, I"m sorry, I missed it). Anyway, expensive though it might be, I'd consider a MacBook in the future, especially if I could dual-boot it with Linux. cheers, Robert ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Purchasing a new computer/laptop.
On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 10:43:40AM -1000, Joel Roth wrote: > On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 07:46:40PM +0100, Edward Bartolo wrote: > > Hi All, > > > > Call me paranoid but I am noticing big companies like Microsoft making > > it very difficult to buy a computer or laptop without Windows > > installed. > > > > Are you experiencing the same difficulty and what do you do when you > > need to buy a new machine? > > I generally go through a laborious, and somewhat painful > process to install my own choice of OS. I heard that M$ is forcing the laptop makers to enable TPM, and prevent it from being disabled, else they aren't allowed to install windows. Having a choice of OS to install is great, but doesn't TPM mean that GNU/Linux can't be installed because TPM won't recognize its signature, if it is signed in the first place? So, getting a machine without windows on it is all well and good, but what about the issue of disabling TPM, or is that not an issue? Greg -- web site: http://www.gregn.net gpg public key: http://www.gregn.net/pubkey.asc skype: gregn1 (authorization required, add me to your contacts list first) If we haven't been in touch before, e-mail me before adding me to your contacts. -- Free domains: http://www.eu.org/ or mail dns-mana...@eu.org ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Purchasing a new computer/laptop
Robert Storey wrote: > Since the Mac doesn't have a ctrl key, the following was a particularly > relevant post: Really ? Mine does, there between the fn and alt keys - standard UK keyboard on a MacBook Pro. I think it will be model/keyboard specific. You can always plug in a different keyboard. Didier Kryn wrote: > Dell likes to have its own OS installed for maintenance purpose. Thats' something to be aware of - a lot of vendors will simply refuse to provide any support (and even warranty) unless you can run Windows and/or their diagnostics. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Purchasing a new computer/laptop.
Mitt Green wrote: > They can request a refund before activating the > license, but will actually receive a smaller amount of > money than they spent, if some at all at all. I recall reading how one person, after a fight to get anything, got much more ! This isn't the case I was thinking of, but came up while searching : http://www.techworld.com.au/article/414500/lenovo_ordered_pay_1920_making_french_laptop_buyer_pay_windows_too/ In the case I was thinking of, the guy got back the cost of a retail copy of Windows from the same shop - on the basis that they didn't have any lower priced option, and refused to reveal/provide any evidence of what the actual cost of the OEM version was. IIRC it was something like $195 or $295 ! So play your cards right, and be prepared to fight your corner rather than accept what the shop tells you, and you could get more back than you expected. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Purchasing a new computer/laptop
Le 26/01/2016 23:40, Robert Storey a écrit : With desktop computers, it's not too hard to find one with FreeDos installed by default, or no OS. Linux usually works fine on these machines. I've seen that few years ago on some machines I bought for my job. I bet it was Dell Poweredge servers. Dell likes to have its own OS installed for maintenance purpose. If you don't care the maintenance, you can overwrite it, but why not dual boot? Maybe they offer that on laptops. Actually, if you buy a Dell computer "without OS", it certainly means "with FreeDOS". Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Purchasing a new computer/laptop
With desktop computers, it's not too hard to find one with FreeDos installed by default, or no OS. Linux usually works fine on these machines. A few years ago I bought a Toshiba Satellite laptop with FreeDos installed by default, and it was cheap. No money to Microsoft, and Linux worked like a charm. But I don't know if Toshiba still sells these Windows-free models now. With Microsoft screwing things up with SecureBoot, I've wondered if a Mac might be less risky. I found a good thread about this on reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/2sm5yk/more_and_more_people_at_my_uni_are_running_linux/ Since the Mac doesn't have a ctrl key, the following was a particularly relevant post: > I've mapped the left Cmd key on my MacBook Pro to Ctrl like so: > xmodmap -e "remove mod4 = Super_L" xmodmap -e "add control = Super_L" > Put that in the startup script for your X session, and you should be fine! This little article also seems very relevant to this topic: http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/choose-best-laptop-linuxubuntu/ cheers, Robert ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Purchasing a new computer/laptop.
Hendrik Boom writes: [...] > There seem to be viable ARM processors, and I've even heard mention of > an ARM laptop; I've had no luck tracking it down. Does anyone else > know of a source? Not really a laptop but something I was seriously tempted to buy a couple of times although I'm decidedly not a gadget-minded person (I must be the only living being on this planet who has two iPhones I exclusively use for VPN testing & other work stuff): http://www.compulab.co.il/utilite-computer/web/home ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Purchasing a new computer/laptop.
Le 26/01/2016 19:18, Hendrik Boom a écrit : There seem to be viable ARM processors, and I've even heard mention of an ARM laptop; I've got a Pi-Top, a laptop built around a Raspberry Pi. It's the first model, crowd-funded. I wouldn't recommend it. I had very little time to devote to it but noticed the keyboard and the touchpad are of poor quality. Another aspect is that it is more a test bench than a true laptop. The USB sockets are on the raspberry Pi and not easily accessible from outside; you must open a sliding door between the keyboard and the lid to reach the Raspberry Pi, a door meant for hardware hacking in some sense. OTOH, it is supposed to have an autonomy of 10h on battery... Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Purchasing a new computer/laptop.
On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 07:46:40PM +0100, Edward Bartolo wrote: > Hi All, > > Call me paranoid but I am noticing big companies like Microsoft making > it very difficult to buy a computer or laptop without Windows > installed. > > Are you experiencing the same difficulty and what do you do when you > need to buy a new machine? The thing to watch out for is whether there are free drivers for *all* of the hardware. I have an old ASUS EEEPC that I use for a laptop. Even though all the early EEEPC's came with Linux installed, it tool at least a year before they released one that did not require proprietary drivers. And some irony, it came with Windows XP preinstalled. I just installed Debian and stopped worrying about the Windows, which I used once a year or so to buy copy-pretected ebooks (which I promptly decrypted so I could still read them into the far future (yes, this was legal in Canada)). Lat year I doubled its RAM and replaced its approx 160G hard drive with a 1T drive with an SSD cache. It is suddenly much faster as long as I don't run Chrome. I'd be happy doubling the size of the screen, except that it I did that it wouldn't fit in my backpack any more, and that's *important*. I got my hardware and installation info from the Linuxlaptop site. Is that still in operation? If I were buying a laprop now, I'd have to do research into what's available, check out the availablility of free drivers, make sure I can use it without secure boot, try to find out if I can make it work with a free BIOS, and so forth. I probably would consider one of the Linux computer vendors, possibly ThinnkPenguin (one I haven't seen mentioned here yet). There was a discussion on soylent news a month or two back about getting a free laptop.n There were a lot of alternatives mentioned to the obsolete laptops approved by the FSF and to the Librem. In particular, there were serous questions whether it was possible to get a secure computer running free software if you were to use INtel of AMD CPUs. There seem to be viable ARM processors, and I've even heard mention of an ARM laptop; I've had no luck tracking it down. Does anyone else know of a source? Some Chromebooks apparently can be made to install Linux instead (though their boot process leaves something to be desired). But the ones with ARM processors all seem to lack adequate size hard drives. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Purchasing a new computer/laptop.
On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 07:46:40PM +0100, Edward Bartolo wrote: > Hi All, > > Call me paranoid but I am noticing big companies like Microsoft making > it very difficult to buy a computer or laptop without Windows > installed. > > Are you experiencing the same difficulty and what do you do when you > need to buy a new machine? I generally go through a laborious, and somewhat painful process to install my own choice of OS. -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Purchasing a new computer/laptop.
Hi. [My first post to this list] I recently bought a used Dell laptop that had Windows 7 pre-installed and just completely formatted the hard drive and installed Debian 7 on it (Before I became aware of this list). It, Debian 7, recognized all of the hardware without any problems. I haven't tried it with Windows 10. Scott R. On 1/26/16 11:46 AM, Edward Bartolo wrote: Hi All, Call me paranoid but I am noticing big companies like Microsoft making it very difficult to buy a computer or laptop without Windows installed. Are you experiencing the same difficulty and what do you do when you need to buy a new machine? Edward ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Purchasing a new computer/laptop.
Dave Turner wrote: >You buy the laptop with Windows 10 installed When buying a machine with Windows pre-installed, a customer pays for Windows as well. They can request a refund before activating the license, but will actually receive a smaller amount of money than they spent, if some at all at all. Mitt ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Purchasing a new computer/laptop.
You buy the laptop with Windows 10 installed, make sure everything works then install the distro of your choice. No dual-booting. VeryPC in the UK make small eco-friendly desktops that they are happy to sell without an OS. I might get one when the iMac finally breaks. You could always have a nice hefty server in the loft and go thin-client... DaveT On 26/01/16 18:46, Edward Bartolo wrote: Hi All, Call me paranoid but I am noticing big companies like Microsoft making it very difficult to buy a computer or laptop without Windows installed. Are you experiencing the same difficulty and what do you do when you need to buy a new machine? Edward ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Purchasing a new computer/laptop.
2016-01-26 19:46 GMT+01:00, Edward Bartolo : > Hi All, > > Call me paranoid but I am noticing big companies like Microsoft making > it very difficult to buy a computer or laptop without Windows > installed. > > Are you experiencing the same difficulty and what do you do when you > need to buy a new machine? I see corporate pressure mostly on big retail deals, e.g. the pc you buy at the supermarket. A pc which is probably going to break in hilarious and mysterious ways in a year. The big players in selling pcs for the workplace don't care really that much into coercing you to install Win, as long as you install an equally spyware-compatible OS like Ubuntu or Fedora. Some open source education and a lot of smugglers, cheaters and good people like that in the management group make it easy for little retailers in Italy to thrive and sell good pcs without any OS preinstalled. For personal use I hadn't bought a pc in 8 years IIRC, but a week ago I had to for work purposes. For laptops there is some choice even at an affordable price on the net, without any OS. Check Amazon. If I were you I won't trust so much known sellers for foss laptops like System76 or Librem, just because they sell overpriced HW :) ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Purchasing a new computer/laptop.
I wrote: >they offer cheap low-end laptops (well, having 4GB of RAM is low-end these days). They have Linux pre-installed, forgot to mention. I've seen maybe a couple only high-end laptops with Linux, and they are made by Dell. So, looking through the market, chances are, you'll see galore, but mostly cheap and too slow to run Windows. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Purchasing a new computer/laptop.
On Tue, 1/26/16, Edward Bartolo wrote: Subject: [DNG] Purchasing a new computer/laptop. To: "dng" Date: Tuesday, January 26, 2016, 12:46 PM Hi All, Call me paranoid but I am noticing big companies like Microsoft making it very difficult to buy a computer or laptop without Windows installed. Are you experiencing the same difficulty and what do you do when you need to buy a new machine? Edward Both my current boxes are custom builds. I don't do hardware. So I research what's available, buy it and have the local computer shop put it together at a cost of @$20. Both boxes have gigabyte boards and they have served me well. I've never had a lappy so don't know anything about that. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Purchasing a new computer/laptop.
We actually have a lot of shops, mostly small, that do their business in Internet, they offer cheap low-end laptops (well, having 4GB of RAM is low-end these days). Dell has own line with Ubuntu pre-installed. There is also an option to buy one of those Pis, especially Pi Zero, which is €4/£4/$5. And, of course, as long as they don't bundle Windows right into the SSD/HDD (or do they?), assembling own machine is the best way to get it working. My £0.02, Mitt ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Purchasing a new computer/laptop.
I mostly build my own computers, as far as my laptop goes I went for good specs and yes that meant I had to sacrifice and get it preinstalled with windows. This might be on me, I did notice freedos installations available on slightly lower spec laptops. It's one of those cost of freedom issues. Thinkpads can still be found on ebay if you just need a reasonable work computer (they look very solid), and a second user install doesn't really put money in microshafts pocket. On Tuesday, January 26, 2016 6:46 PM, Edward Bartolo wrote: > Hi All, > > Call me paranoid but I am noticing big companies like Microsoft making > it very difficult to buy a computer or laptop without Windows > installed. > > Are you experiencing the same difficulty and what do you do when you > need to buy a new machine? > > Edward > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng -- Take back your privacy. Switch to www.StartMail.com ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng