Re: [DNG] fvwm

[Alessandro Selli]

On Thu, 24 Aug 2017 at 03:59:17 +0200
Adam Borowski  wrote:

> On Wed, Aug 23, 2017 at 06:13:30PM -0700, Rick Moen wrote:
>> So, anyway, X11 somewhat sucks.  (Will Wayland suck less?  Don't hold
>> your breath waiting.)  
>
> On one hand, X desperately needed a clean rewrite, at least 30 years ago.
> On the other... despite some experienced X people being among Wayland
> developers, there's too much bizarre stuff like:
>
> https://wiki.gnome.org/Initiatives/Wayland/PrimarySelection
>
> So grudgingly the idiots agreed to "consider" bringing back a reduced form
> of mouse paste "to ease the transition for long-term X users".
>
> Because, you know, that's an obscure easter egg.  And "there are few middle
> mouse buttons in the world" (have you seen a mouse without a middle button
> this millenium?).

  I cannot believe what I read.  If they're so concerned about people
mistakingly click their nowhere-to-be-found middle button, why aren't they
just as concerned abut them erroneusly pressing Ctrl+v with the pointer in the
wrong place?


Alessandro
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Re: [DNG] fvwm

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Adam Borowski (kilob...@angband.pl):

> On one hand, X desperately needed a clean rewrite, at least 30 years ago.
> On the other... despite some experienced X people being among Wayland
> developers, there's too much bizarre stuff like:
> 
> https://wiki.gnome.org/Initiatives/Wayland/PrimarySelection
> 
> So grudgingly the idiots agreed to "consider" bringing back a reduced form
> of mouse paste "to ease the transition for long-term X users".
> 
> Because, you know, that's an obscure easter egg.  And "there are few middle
> mouse buttons in the world" (have you seen a mouse without a middle button
> this millenium?).

It really is boggle-worthy, isn't it?  And the GNOME people say these
sorts of thing _all the time_, where you really want to ask 'And what
colour _is_ the sky, on your planet?'

-- 
Cheers,  « On donne des conseils, mais on ne 
Rick Moendonne point la sagesse d'en profiter. »
r...@linuxmafia.com -- La Rochefoucauld
McQ! (4x80)   
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Re: [DNG] fvwm

[Adam Borowski]

On Wed, Aug 23, 2017 at 06:13:30PM -0700, Rick Moen wrote:
> So, anyway, X11 somewhat sucks.  (Will Wayland suck less?  Don't hold
> your breath waiting.)

On one hand, X desperately needed a clean rewrite, at least 30 years ago.
On the other... despite some experienced X people being among Wayland
developers, there's too much bizarre stuff like:

https://wiki.gnome.org/Initiatives/Wayland/PrimarySelection

So grudgingly the idiots agreed to "consider" bringing back a reduced form
of mouse paste "to ease the transition for long-term X users".

Because, you know, that's an obscure easter egg.  And "there are few middle
mouse buttons in the world" (have you seen a mouse without a middle button
this millenium?).


Meow!
-- 
⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ 
⣾⠁⢰⠒⠀⣿⡁ Vat kind uf sufficiently advanced technology iz dis!?
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ -- Genghis Ht'rok'din
⠈⠳⣄ 
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Re: [DNG] fvwm

[Rick Moen]

I meant to include this:

[UNIX-HATER's Handbook:]

> Said volume, a flawed minor classic of the rant genre, has always had
> fans in Unixdom, including yr. present correspondent.  It's a
> compilation of postings to the old (long-gone, I think) mailing list
> UNIX-HATERS, mostly sent by disgruntled devotees of Symbolics, Inc. 
> LISP Machines and a few Mac-heads uncharacteristically able to use their
> keyboards.  ;->  (In other words, the critiques are all rather ancient 
> in 2017.)

Eric Raymond and his blog readership had a retrospective look at this 
book in 2008.  (Like Eric, I have a well-worn copy of the IDG Press
trade paperback.)  http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=538

Eric found that some chapters' critiques still had some currency.  Most
of them took aim at long-irrelevant targets, like the chapter on
sendmail and the chapter on Unix support for physical terminals.  He
views Don Hopkins's chapter about X11 to be mixed bag.  I'm amused to
note that Eric makes the same comment I did, about the missed
opportunity when Sun Microsystems refused to open-source NeWS with the
result that everyone stopped using it.

The chapter ranting about infelicities of scripting languages fell
victim to the appearance of Perl and Python, likewise the chapter about
programming tools generally.

Anyway, worth reading (both the book and Eric's retrospectie critique).

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Re: [DNG] fvwm

[golinux]

On 2017-08-23 20:13, Rick Moen wrote:


Anyway, you have invented in your mind a problem that (in my considered
view) doesn't exist, tried to present a really terrible solution to the
alleged problem, and (not _just_ in my considered view, but observably)
gotten zero pickup.



Chuckled when I read that.  That could equally be said be said of a 
certain Red Hat developer.  If only HIS idea had gotten zero pickup!  
Sometimes life just isn't fair . . .


golinux
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Re: [DNG] fvwm

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Steve Litt (sl...@troubleshooters.com):

> I looked this up, and the only reference I saw was
> https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/SLiM#Environments, and that didn't
> make it sticky, it just made your .xinitrc DEFAULTSESSION the default
> if you chose something outside of the .xinitrc case statement, when in
> slim.

As a reminder, that page says that it's necessary to edit _both_
/etc/slim.conf and ~/.xinitrc.

> Stickiness isn't the ability to state a preference. It's the ability to
> keep whatever you chose last time, until you deliberately choose
> something else.

SLiM doesn't support that.  The page says so right under subhead
'Configuration'.  

If you want to add that feature, submit a patch.

(I don't have a setup that includes SLiM, preferring as I do something
simpler.)

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Re: [DNG] fvwm

[Steve Litt]

On Wed, 23 Aug 2017 09:10:39 -0700
Rick Moen  wrote:


> Steve may or may not have noticed that I also did answer his other
> question:  For a user to make a system's choice of window manager
> 'sticky' in SLiM, he/she need only edit ~/.xinitrc .  Thus, each user
> gets to declare a preference.

I looked this up, and the only reference I saw was
https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/SLiM#Environments, and that didn't
make it sticky, it just made your .xinitrc DEFAULTSESSION the default
if you chose something outside of the .xinitrc case statement, when in
slim.

Stickiness isn't the ability to state a preference. It's the ability to
keep whatever you chose last time, until you deliberately choose
something else. That's the way every display manager I've ever seen
works. If anybody knows how to do *that*, please let me know.

SteveT
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Re: [DNG] fvwm

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Steve Litt (sl...@troubleshooters.com):

> > Uh-huh.  Seen that.
> > https://xkcd.com/927/
> 
> That's not relevant to this particular discussion, as it discusses a
> standard, not a term to unify two terms that, at least from a certain
> viewpoint, are the same thing.

I believe the application of cartoonist Randall Munroe's concept should
be fully clear.  (If it nonetheless isn't to you, I can easily live with
that.)

Anyway, you have invented in your mind a problem that (in my considered
view) doesn't exist, tried to present a really terrible solution to the
alleged problem, and (not _just_ in my considered view, but observably)
gotten zero pickup.  Which brings us to date.

Some day, you really ought to study the particulars of the X Window
System sufficiently to get to knowthe basic categories (such as the three 
I detailed upthread)  and where the forest of rc files are and what they
do.  The latter is the difficult part, because, frankly, X11 itself is
an infamously baroque design.

For some cheap computerist entertainment on _that_ subject, read veteran
UI coder Don Hopkins's chapter 'The X-Windows Disaster'[1] in _The
UNIX-HATER's Handbook_ (1994).  Co-editor Simson Garfinkel has kindly
put it online in PDF form:  http://simson.net/ref/ugh.pdf

Said volume, a flawed minor classic of the rant genre, has always had
fans in Unixdom, including yr. present correspondent.  It's a
compilation of postings to the old (long-gone, I think) mailing list
UNIX-HATERS, mostly sent by disgruntled devotees of Symbolics, Inc. 
LISP Machines and a few Mac-heads uncharacteristically able to use their
keyboards.  ;->  (In other words, the critiques are all rather ancient 
in 2017.)

So, anyway, X11 somewhat sucks.  (Will Wayland suck less?  Don't hold
your breath waiting.)


 
> Back to the current discussion. The slim login screen could easily give
> one a choice between KDE (which everyone would term a Desktop
> Environment) and DWM (which everyone would term a Window Manager).

I'm sure the Devuan Project would gratefully accept your patch.


> And forget "session", because if one needs to, as you put it in a
> different email, slim parses /usr/share/xsessions/. That's an
> implementation detail, not a commonly used terminology.

If you think X Session Managers are not a standard commonly used
terminology, and/or that said directory doesn't exist specifically for
them, then you are mistaken.


[1] As the book explains, Don Hopkins made a point of saying 'X-Windows'
_because_ that term is deprecated by the X authorities (on trademark
grounds, IIRC) and he thereby hoped to annoy X Window System people.
Which is very much in the spirit of pique that informs the book as a
whole.

Hopkins has ample credibility for writing said critique, being a
qualified authority on X _and_ also on Sun NeWS.  It's a tragedy that
NeWS lost the adoption batter to the X Window System, because it was 
head and shoulders better -- but the fact is that Sun refused to licence
that code and related patents on liberal grounds, whereas X lacked those
obstacles, so it won despite its drawbacks.  Unix-family OSes have won
(become ubiquitous) for extremely similar reasons.
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Re: [DNG] fvwm

[Steve Litt]

On Wed, 23 Aug 2017 14:17:58 -0700
Rick Moen  wrote:

> Quoting Stephen Dennison (stephe...@gmail.com):
> 
> > No, I mean, I literally don't understand the use of the words chosen
> > and how they're supposed to modify each other.  Based on your
> > interpretation, my guesswork of his intended usage of the acronym
> > was more or less accurate, but I don't understand the choice of
> > words themselves.  
> 
> Steve wants a word denoting 'either a window manager or a desktop
> environment, and I really don't care which of them it is, or want to
> hear about the distinction'.  Like many a computerist before him, he 
> decided to fill this _alleged_ need by coining a new expression that's
> painfully ungainly and, if anything, anti-mnemonic.
> 
> Remember the misbegotten push for everyone to please adopt the
> goofy initialism 'FLOSS'[1] (or 'FOSS') based on the supposed need to
> bury the (alleged) distinction between 'free software' and 'open
> source' by switching to a third term?  This is the same sort of
> tactical + strategic error, saying to people 'Here, let me simplify
> reality by burying the difference between _two_ things by inventing a
> _third_ thing.'


Pre-cisely! Although Free Software and Open Source are pretty similar
regarding privileges granted and responsibilities required, when you
wanted to ask whether something was free as in liberty, no matter how
you framed the question, and argument would start between those
advocating "Free Software" and those advocating "Open Source". The
creation of the word FOSS buried that problem six feet under.

> 
> Uh-huh.  Seen that.
> https://xkcd.com/927/

That's not relevant to this particular discussion, as it discusses a
standard, not a term to unify two terms that, at least from a certain
viewpoint, are the same thing.

Certain viewpoint? Exactly. Most computer users don't care whether
their GOSFUI *has* a window manager or *is* a window manager, they use
one of the terms to mean the union, and some literal guy forks the
discussion by discussing a different viewpoint, from which the
distinction has import.

Back to the current discussion. The slim login screen could easily give
one a choice between KDE (which everyone would term a Desktop
Environment) and DWM (which everyone would term a Window Manager). What
word or phrase does the screen use to subsume both choices.

And forget "session", because if one needs to, as you put it in a
different email, slim parses /usr/share/xsessions/. That's an
implementation detail, not a commonly used terminology.
 
SteveT
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Re: [DNG] fvwm

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Stephen Dennison (stephe...@gmail.com):

> No, I mean, I literally don't understand the use of the words chosen
> and how they're supposed to modify each other.  Based on your
> interpretation, my guesswork of his intended usage of the acronym was
> more or less accurate, but I don't understand the choice of words
> themselves.

Steve wants a word denoting 'either a window manager or a desktop
environment, and I really don't care which of them it is, or want to
hear about the distinction'.  Like many a computerist before him, he 
decided to fill this _alleged_ need by coining a new expression that's
painfully ungainly and, if anything, anti-mnemonic.

Remember the misbegotten push for everyone to please adopt the
goofy initialism 'FLOSS'[1] (or 'FOSS') based on the supposed need to
bury the (alleged) distinction between 'free software' and 'open source'
by switching to a third term?  This is the same sort of tactical +
strategic error, saying to people 'Here, let me simplify reality by
burying the difference between _two_ things by inventing a _third_
thing.'

Uh-huh.  Seen that.
https://xkcd.com/927/


> Actually I was basing my description on the session dir, the files,
> and content.  The files contain a command that will get executed.

Indeed.  But the directory location is by convention intended to be
written to and read from X session managers.  Sure, you could also
decide to put things there, but the point is that SLiM is looking there
to find X session manager state.

A more obvious place for -you- to put directives about which X clients
to run at startup time is ~/.xinitrc .  In fact, that's what it's for.

Moreover, when you put them there, that file will get unconditionally
parsed and run at X startup time by the X server, irrespective of any
other considerations such as choice of display manager -- which is
generally what you will want.


> [SLiM] gives you hooks to call setup and teardown to support
> whatever hokey session you might want, but does it really care about
> session in the way you describe?

{shrug}

I'm just inferring based on what wording SLiM uses and what directories it
chooses to parse at startup.  If you are serious about wanting to know
for certain what the coders were thinking, you'll have to ask them.
(FWIW, SLiM is no longer maintained upstream.)

> I played with it long enough to learn how to customize it but
> eventually went back to console login.  I only recently started using
> slim on systems that need to look modern for other people.

FWIW, xdm can look really nice with a custom background image and some
other dressing up.  If you want _just_ a display manager that will 
just accept login credentials, start X11, and obey standard X Window
System controls (meaning its user-specific and system-wide rc files),
look no further.

xdm looking extremely plain is merely a _default_.

Defaults are for experimenting with.  It's *ix.


[1] http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=882
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Re: [DNG] fvwm

[Harald Arnesen]

Steve Litt [2017-08-23 18:03]:

> You just said it in the first sentence of the preceding paragraph: Why
> not substitute the phrase "grapical environment" for "session"? If
> "graphical environment" isn't perfect, it's a hell of a lot better than
> either "session", "window manager" or "desktop environment".

OK, maybe I had a flash of insight :-)

I like the phrase when you point it out.
-- 
Hilsen Harald
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Re: [DNG] fvwm

[Harald Arnesen]

Steve Litt [2017-08-23 18:00]:

>> "Window Manager" would be the best, I think. I agree that "Session"
>> can be misleading. How many users would know what you mean by
>> "GOSFUI", a not at all intuitive and far too long abbreviation almost
>> never used outside of this mailing list?

> Then we should think of a better word to represent the union of window
> managers and desktop environments. I don't have Not Invented Here
> syndrome: I'd be glad to support and publicize such a word.

And how many people will understand yet anotner word?

"Session" is the accepted word, like it or not. I would prefer "Desktop
manager", but I don't think that will happen.
-- 
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Re: [DNG] fvwm

[Stephen Dennison]

On Wed, Aug 23, 2017 at 3:42 PM, Rick Moen  wrote:
> Quoting Stephen Dennison (stephe...@gmail.com):
>
>> A user interface that faces a graphical operating system... I don't
>> understand the choice of words picked here.  I followed the link but
>> it didn't really help.  I'm not sure which words are supposed to be
>> modifying which other words.
>
> Here's how this came about:  A few times over the years, Steve has
> referred to things like XFCE as a 'window manager', and was told

No, I mean, I literally don't understand the use of the words chosen
and how they're supposed to modify each other.  Based on your
interpretation, my guesswork of his intended usage of the acronym was
more or less accurate, but I don't understand the choice of words
themselves.

>> I think I grasp how you want the term to be used, but
>> every time I see the new acronym come up I have to google it again to find
>> out what it is.
>
> Which, along with fundamental pointlessness, is why it won't work.
I suspect this may be so.

> To quibble:  SLiM actually uses the word 'session' to mean 'user state,
> maintained on-disc by an X11 session manager.'  In that context, it
> _doesn't_ mean merely something that runs for a while.  Don't take my
> word for it:  Read /etc/slim.conf, find the sessiondir line, and look up
> what the referenced directory location houses.
Actually I was basing my description on the session dir, the files,
and content.  The files contain a command that will get executed.
Once that command exits you are back at the login.  Yay for XDG?  I
don't think slim cares about a user state or on-disk maintenance of
that.  It gives you hooks to call setup and teardown to support
whatever hokey session you might want, but does it really care about
session in the way you describe?  I haven't read a lot of
documentation for slim because, well, the config file is heavily
commented, so my understanding is probably flawed.  Or perhaps the
distinction just doesn't matter.

>> I would be curious to hear how others handle this when they wish to
>> customize their session.
>
> Don't look at me.  ;->  I prefer xdm from the Stone Age as my X display
> manager.  Because it's bog-simple.
I used that for a while.  I played with it long enough to learn how to
customize it but eventually went back to console login.  I only
recently started using slim on systems that need to look modern for
other people.
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Re: [DNG] fvwm

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Stephen Dennison (stephe...@gmail.com):

> A user interface that faces a graphical operating system... I don't
> understand the choice of words picked here.  I followed the link but
> it didn't really help.  I'm not sure which words are supposed to be
> modifying which other words.

Here's how this came about:  A few times over the years, Steve has
referred to things like XFCE as a 'window manager', and was told 
(paraphrasing) 'Technically, that's a DE that characteristically uses
_xfwm_ as its window manager but has also hooks to instead use the
awesome WM or any other WM, preferably one compliant with the XFCE
suite's hinting interface for alternate WMs'.

After this occurred a few times, Steve's response was _not_ 'I guess I 
ought to learn more accurately what a window manager is'[1], but rather
concocting a new, opaque, difficult to remember, and somewhat hideous
jargon item and continually ask everyone else to adopt it & cease
talking about WMs and DEs.

Which obviously isn't working, and won't work -- but everyone needs a
hobby.


> I think I grasp how you want the term to be used, but
> every time I see the new acronym come up I have to google it again to find
> out what it is.

Which, along with fundamental pointlessness, is why it won't work.


> > A session is something that runs for awhile, and usually the
> > implication is it's already running.
> 
> Yeah, a session is certainly something that runs for a while, but no,
> it does not imply that it's already running.

To quibble:  SLiM actually uses the word 'session' to mean 'user state,
maintained on-disc by an X11 session manager.'  In that context, it
_doesn't_ mean merely something that runs for a while.  Don't take my
word for it:  Read /etc/slim.conf, find the sessiondir line, and look up
what the referenced directory location houses.


> I would be curious to hear how others handle this when they wish to
> customize their session.

Don't look at me.  ;->  I prefer xdm from the Stone Age as my X display
manager.  Because it's bog-simple.


[1] In a better world, Steve might also have expressed gratitude to his
interlocutors for letting him know that different WMs could be swapped
in, and maybe finding one he likes better.  Steve's helpers were, after
all, trying to tell him something useful he might not have known -- not
just quibbling for quibbling's sake.

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Re: [DNG] fvwm

[Stephen Dennison]

On Tue, Aug 22, 2017 at 5:59 PM, Steve Litt 
wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Fvwm is a lightweight GOSFUI
> (Graphical Operating System Facing User
> Interface (http://www.troubleshooters.com/linux/gosfui.htm)) that is
>
A user interface that faces a graphical operating system... I don't
understand the choice of words picked here.  I followed the link but it
didn't really help.  I'm not sure which words are supposed to be modifying
which other words.  I think I grasp how you want the term to be used, but
every time I see the new acronym come up I have to google it again to find
out what it is.

Anyway, I dont think a new term is needed.  Then again, I've never had a
conversation where someone disagreed with the use of KDE in response to a
question about the window manager being used except when they disagreed
with the use of KDE in general.

extremely configurable and extensible. Not many people use it, but
> those who do love it. The trouble is, it's very difficult to configure,
>
I suppose the people that *continue* to use it do love it.  I certainly
can't find anything better.


> and configuration tips and instructions are handed down from mentor to
> mentee with secret handshakes and incantations. There's almost no web
> documentation suitable for someone not already an expert.
>
Yeah, there are lots of configs you can borrow from, and these are on the
web, but I'm not sure what you mean by web documentation.  The man page is
pretty good and the forums are pretty good.  There's a sort of wiki hosted
on the forum site, too.  That has some smaller more digestible pieces to it
but it's still somewhat intimidating.  There are a bunch of user pages that
talk about how to configure it, too.  I suppose it's a victim of its own
incredibly configurable nature.  The language is simple, but it can do so
many things that expressing it becomes complex very quickly.

Nevertheless, Devuan has a very nice fvwm package that doesn't work
> until one copies a file, and then works great.

What?  It works without copying any files.  It worked out of the box on the
different devuan systems where I installed it.  Some were beta installs,
some were debian jessie to devuan jessie migrations, and some were ...err
normal? installs.


> Today I managed to
> integrate dmenu in with fvwm, creating a highly productive interface.
>
Could I see your configuration file?  Other than adding a key to launch
dmenu I'm curious to see what you've added.  I'm always looking for cool
features to add to my own config.


> I found a couple issues with Devuan Jessie's Display Manager screen
> that make using fvwm (or anything but the default) just a little more
> difficult:
>
> 1) "Press F1 to select session"
>
> 2) Choice of GOSFUI is not sticky
>
> As far as #1, what the hell does "session" mean?

As pointed out in other replies, the session is a session in the context of
X.  Or more simply, it's the thing that when it exits you'll be sitting at
the login again.


> A session is something that runs for awhile, and usually the implication
> is it's already
> running.

Yeah, a session is certainly something that runs for a while, but no, it
does not imply that it's already running.

I think the word "session" needs to be changed to "GOSFUI".

No, session is more appropriate here.  Your new term is more restrictive
than what can actually be launched.


> If
> you'd rather not use a word directly created to handle the exact
> concept, you could substitute "window manager or desktop environment".
>
No, this wouldn't be correct.  You can launch something other than a window
manager or a desktop environment as your session.  For example, a kiosk, or
single full screen application instead of a window manager.


> To articulate just "window manager" or just "desktop environment" is to
> create arguments, and also could lead to errors in very literal
> thinking people.
>
That doesn't apply here.  It's also a good argument for not changing it
from session.


> #2 is bad because:
>
> a) Most other display managers default to the last GOSFUI that was run,
>not to the distro's default.
>
This isn't necessarily bad, just different.  Perhaps it's unexpected, but
it is a somewhat sane default.


> b) People preferring not to use the distro's default are going to get
>mighty tired of F1-ing around the GOSFUI loop in order to pick their
>choice.
>
I generally edit the /etc/slim.conf file to just execute the .xinitrc file
from the user's home directory.  When you edit the file it actually does a
decent job of explaining how to change it.  Then my .xinitrc file does a
bunch of customization (xmodmap, xrdb, xset...) and finally calls fvwm.

I would be curious to hear how others handle this when they wish to
customize their session.
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Re: [DNG] fvwm

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Steve Litt (sl...@troubleshooters.com):

> Then we should think of a better word to represent the union of window
> managers and desktop environments. 

No, you have completely misdefined the problem, and this is why you
continually just raise noise on the matter and not help anything.

An X11 window manager, just like an X11 display manager and an X11
session manager -- and for the love of Ghod I hope you bothered
consulting those pages I provided about the concepts -- are real,
clearly defined things.

A 'Desktop Environment' is just a suite of a bunch of X11 things,
typically including one each, or in some cases a choice of several, in
each of those three categories, plus a bunch of X11 apps that all happen
to use the same graphics toolkit.

Really.  That's all it is.

What you've said, above, is analogous to saying 'We should think of a
better word to represent the union of malls and Sears stores', just
because you cannot be bothered to understand the difference between a
mall and a Sears store.  So:

> Seriously: 

Seriously, you should learn the X Window System.


> What I *do* know is...

...based on a fundamental error compounded by you then leading an
invisible marching band.

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Re: [DNG] fvwm

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Steve Litt (sl...@troubleshooters.com):

> You just said it in the first sentence of the preceding paragraph: Why
> not substitute the phrase "grapical environment" for "session"? 

Um, how about because that would be factually mistaken?

It would be an excellent idea if you were to poke around SLiM and some
of the Web pages and documentation about it.  

Or, alternatively, you might prefer a different X11 Display Manager 
whose design you prefer.  There have always been a lot of them.  Even 
then, though, I would strongly recommend spending some time getting to
better know X11's admittedly labyrynthine design and file layout. 
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Re: [DNG] fvwm

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Michael Siegel (mi...@malbolge.net):

> What is being chosen there, is actually a profile for the graphical
> environment. So, neither "window manager" nor "desktop environment"
> really fit. You could say "profile", but "session" seems to be the
> (de-facto) standard term. Also, it makes some sense if you think about
> what session management is.

In this case, SLiM _literally means_ sessions, because (by default
configuration of /etc/slim.conf, it is parsing /usr/share/xsessions/ ,
which by convention is where X11 session managers store their state
data.

It's not that 'session' is a _standard_ term; it's that it's what SLiM
happens to be talking about in, in its default configuration.

Luckily, if you aren't running X11 session managers and/or prefer
more-direct control over what SLiM offers users at login, you can edit
/etc/slim.conf to do that (commenting out the 'sessiondir' line, for
starters).

Steve may or may not have noticed that I also did answer his other
question:  For a user to make a system's choice of window manager
'sticky' in SLiM, he/she need only edit ~/.xinitrc .  Thus, each user
gets to declare a preference.

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Re: [DNG] fvwm

[Steve Litt]

On Wed, 23 Aug 2017 10:53:43 +0200
Michael Siegel  wrote:

> Am 23.08.2017 um 09:31 schrieb Harald Arnesen:
> > Steve Litt [2017-08-22 23:59]:
> >   
> >> As far as #1, what the hell does "session" mean? A session is
> >> something that runs for awhile, and usually the implication is
> >> it's already running. I think the word "session" needs to be
> >> changed to "GOSFUI". If you'd rather not use a word directly
> >> created to handle the exact concept, you could substitute "window
> >> manager or desktop environment".  
> > 
> > "Window Manager" would be the best, I think. I agree that "Session"
> > can be misleading. How many users would know what you mean by
> > "GOSFUI", a not at all intuitive and far too long abbreviation
> > almost never used outside of this mailing list?  
> 
> What is being chosen there, is actually a profile for the graphical
> environment. So, neither "window manager" nor "desktop environment"
> really fit. You could say "profile", but "session" seems to be the
> (de-facto) standard term. Also, it makes some sense if you think about
> what session management is.

You just said it in the first sentence of the preceding paragraph: Why
not substitute the phrase "grapical environment" for "session"? If
"graphical environment" isn't perfect, it's a hell of a lot better than
either "session", "window manager" or "desktop environment".

SteveT
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Re: [DNG] fvwm

[Steve Litt]

On Wed, 23 Aug 2017 09:31:45 +0200
Harald Arnesen  wrote:

> Steve Litt [2017-08-22 23:59]:
> 
> > As far as #1, what the hell does "session" mean? A session is
> > something that runs for awhile, and usually the implication is it's
> > already running. I think the word "session" needs to be changed to
> > "GOSFUI". If you'd rather not use a word directly created to handle
> > the exact concept, you could substitute "window manager or desktop
> > environment".  
> 
> "Window Manager" would be the best, I think. I agree that "Session"
> can be misleading. How many users would know what you mean by
> "GOSFUI", a not at all intuitive and far too long abbreviation almost
> never used outside of this mailing list?

Then we should think of a better word to represent the union of window
managers and desktop environments. I don't have Not Invented Here
syndrome: I'd be glad to support and publicize such a word.

What I *do* know is that as long as we use "window manager" or "desktop
environment" or "desktop" to represent what's really a specific
graphical user interface, there will be thread-hijacking arguments and
nothing will get solved. It's been this way for 15 years.

Seriously: If you don't like GOSFUI, come up with something better:
Something that currently doesn't have a definition. We'll publicize the
hell out of the word and the definition so no definition weenies can
come in and obfuscate it, and bang, we're done.

SteveT
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Re: [DNG] fvwm

[Michael Siegel]

Am 23.08.2017 um 09:31 schrieb Harald Arnesen:
> Steve Litt [2017-08-22 23:59]:
> 
>> As far as #1, what the hell does "session" mean? A session is something
>> that runs for awhile, and usually the implication is it's already
>> running. I think the word "session" needs to be changed to "GOSFUI". If
>> you'd rather not use a word directly created to handle the exact
>> concept, you could substitute "window manager or desktop environment".
> 
> "Window Manager" would be the best, I think. I agree that "Session" can
> be misleading. How many users would know what you mean by "GOSFUI", a
> not at all intuitive and far too long abbreviation almost never used
> outside of this mailing list?

What is being chosen there, is actually a profile for the graphical
environment. So, neither "window manager" nor "desktop environment"
really fit. You could say "profile", but "session" seems to be the
(de-facto) standard term. Also, it makes some sense if you think about
what session management is.


msi
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Re: [DNG] fvwm

[Harald Arnesen]

Steve Litt [2017-08-22 23:59]:

> As far as #1, what the hell does "session" mean? A session is something
> that runs for awhile, and usually the implication is it's already
> running. I think the word "session" needs to be changed to "GOSFUI". If
> you'd rather not use a word directly created to handle the exact
> concept, you could substitute "window manager or desktop environment".

"Window Manager" would be the best, I think. I agree that "Session" can
be misleading. How many users would know what you mean by "GOSFUI", a
not at all intuitive and far too long abbreviation almost never used
outside of this mailing list?
-- 
Hilsen Harald

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Re: [DNG] fvwm

[Joel Roth]

I usually fire up fvwm for the rare instances that an
app is awkward using tiles under i3. 


-- 
Joel Roth
  

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Re: [DNG] fvwm

[Steve Litt]

On Tue, 22 Aug 2017 16:17:37 -0700
Rick Moen  wrote:


> But the question you really wanted to ask is:  How do you add fvwm to
> the things SLiM offers the user at login?

No, that happened automatically once I installed the fvwm package with
apt-get.

SteveT
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Re: [DNG] fvwm

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Steve Litt (sl...@troubleshooters.com):

> Hi all,
> 
> Fvwm is a lightweight window manager

Fixed it for you. ;->

> I found a couple issues with Devuan Jessie's Display Manager screen

For reference, the default X11 Display Manager in Devuan is 'SLiM', as
you guessed.
https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/SLiM 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SLiM
http://www.archlinuxuser.com/2013/02/how-to-install-configure-slim-login.html
The default window manager is xfwm starting with xfce4-session as an X11
Session Manager and the rest of the XFCE4 suite (xfm file manager, etc.)

If it's unclear what a display manager (DM) is:
https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Display_manager
(Provides graphical login, some allow user to choose wm.)

If it's unclear what a session manager (SM) is:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X_session_manager
(Keeps track of what processes you're running and, if you suddenly
logout and log back in, restarts them.)

If it's unclear what a window manager (WM) is:
https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Window_manager
(Special type of X11 client that controls the placing and organisation
of all other X11 clients.)

> ...that make using fvwm (or anything but the default) just a little more
> difficult:
> 
> 1) "Press F1 to select session"
> As far as #1, what the hell does "session" mean?


ITYM, what does 'session' mean as used in the 'SLiM' X11 Display Manager 
UI?  In this context, it seems to mean state maintained by an X11
session manager such as xfce4-session.  The ArchLinux wiki page says 
the SLiM DM parses these from /usr/share/xsessions/ by default.

But the question you really wanted to ask is:  How do you add fvwm to
the things SLiM offers the user at login?

On https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/SLiM, it looks like they say you
need to edit both /etc/slim.conf and ~/.xinitrc, and hash out the line 
'sessiondir /usr/share/xsessions/' in /etc/slim.conf in order to 'disable 
automatic detection of installed environments'.

I gather that SLiM has a bias in favour of assuming that _naturally_ you
are running a session manager.  fvwm being blessedly unencumbered with 
extraneous baggage does not start up a session manager -- though I
suppose you might be able to tack one on, in theory.





> 2) Choice of session is not sticky

Fixed it for you.  ;->

It appears that each user can configure a default session by adding a
DEFAULT_SESSION=[$THING] line in ~/xinitrc .  The $THING would be the
session manager or its wrapper script if you're running a session
manager, e.g., 'startxfce4' wrapper for the XFC4 suite that starts up
xfce4-session, xfwm, and probably a bunch of related junk, or 'fvwm2' to
start just the fvwm WM (which as mentioned isn't bundled with a session
manager), or the 'startfluxbox' wrapper for the Fluxbox WM, etc.

Details are on
http://www.archlinuxuser.com/2013/02/how-to-install-configure-slim-login.html


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