Re: [DNG] state of what's working for modern desktop usage
On 12/02/16 02:58, KatolaZ wrote: My solution: just forget wicd and use wpa_supplicant directly. It works ALWAYS, without delays, without stupid automagicalities, without problems. +1 a little manual intervention, and a couple of keybindings to make that easier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] state of what's working for modern desktop usage
On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 03:41:38PM +, hellekin wrote: > On 02/10/2016 07:20 AM, Didier Kryn wrote: > >>> > Sorry I missed that, does it handle wifi roaming? > > > > It means you can transport your laptop to whichever place there is a > > wifi ap (which you have entered once in your config) and your laptop > > will automatically connect to the network, without you having to even > > care about it. > > > > Which doesn't seem to be reliable with wicd. Did anyone else have this > experience? > I have always had problems with wicd, for a reason or another. wicd might be convenient to set up on-the-fly connections that you don't use all the time (e.g., a wifi access in a public place), but then there is always something that goes wrong, e.g. when an AP goes in and out of sight: in that case wicd will try and retry to find the previous AP, then it could try another AP with the same ESSID (if you checked the right box in the conf panel), then it will jump back and fro choosing the AP with the same ESSID and the best signal. Result: you might be literally bombarded by good-quality 2.4Ghz elecromagnetic waves that you could exploit to access the Internet, but you usually remain stuck for several minutes in a row without being able to use such wealthy abundance of electromagnetic waves just because wicd has to update its bloody list of available APs four or five times in a row, and has to do a round-robin associate-disconnect to check which is the best one among the available ones My solution: just forget wicd and use wpa_supplicant directly. It works ALWAYS, without delays, without stupid automagicalities, without problems. My2Cents KatolaZ -- [ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ] [ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ] [ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ] ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] state of what's working for modern desktop usage
On 02/10/2016 07:20 AM, Didier Kryn wrote: >>> Sorry I missed that, does it handle wifi roaming? > > It means you can transport your laptop to whichever place there is a > wifi ap (which you have entered once in your config) and your laptop > will automatically connect to the network, without you having to even > care about it. > Which doesn't seem to be reliable with wicd. Did anyone else have this experience? == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] state of what's working for modern desktop usage
On Tue, 9 Feb 2016 23:26:52 + KatolaZ wrote: > I have to admit how much I envy you all guys. I have tried dozens of > those automagical tools for wifi connection management, but in the end > I always ended up using wpa_supplicant (with hand-written custom > config files) + dhclient. There is no tool that does just "connect me > to a wifi that I select" without forcing me, sooner or later, to do > more work than needed with wpa_supplicant + dhclient :( > > Life is tough, here in the cave... :D I've been experimenting with a wpa_supplicant daemon and wpa_cli commands for a fair part of the day. I'm thinking perhaps I can someday make one of those automagical tools out of wpa_cli, ip, dialog, grep, cut, and the rest of the usual suspects. And I mean perhaps make something that, from the human interface perspective, looks just like NetworkManager, but is CLI (dialog) and needs no dbus, no window manager, and no "the software that shall not be mentioned". SteveT Steve Litt February 2016 featured book: The Key to Everyday Excellence http://www.troubleshooters.com/key ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] state of what's working for modern desktop usage
Le 10/02/2016 08:10, Steve Litt a écrit : On Tue, 09 Feb 2016 21:11:05 +0300 Mitt Green wrote: Didier Kryn wrote: Sorry I missed that, does it handle wifi roaming? It doesn't do more than wpa_supplicant and dhcpcd. And has its spawn in a notification tray. Exactly what is wifi roaming, anyway? SteveT Steve Litt February 2016 featured book: The Key to Everyday Excellence http://www.troubleshooters.com/key It means you can transport your laptop to whichever place there is a wifi ap (which you have entered once in your config) and your laptop will automatically connect to the network, without you having to even care about it. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] state of what's working for modern desktop usage
On Tue, 09 Feb 2016 21:11:05 +0300 Mitt Green wrote: > Didier Kryn wrote: > > >Sorry I missed that, does it handle wifi roaming? > > It doesn't do more than wpa_supplicant and dhcpcd. > And has its spawn in a notification tray. Exactly what is wifi roaming, anyway? SteveT Steve Litt February 2016 featured book: The Key to Everyday Excellence http://www.troubleshooters.com/key ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] state of what's working for modern desktop usage
On 10/02/16 10:26, KatolaZ wrote: On Tue, Feb 09, 2016 at 09:22:15PM +0100, Florian Zieboll wrote: On Tue, 9 Feb 2016 11:24:38 -0500 Steve Litt wrote: For the reasons I enumerated above. I don't use NetworkManager because it's too much baggage, but I have to admit, its human-engineering is spectacular **on a window manager with a panel**. If you just need it for e.g. an occasional mobile connection, stalonetray is perfect. I have to admit how much I envy you all guys. I have tried dozens of those automagical tools for wifi connection management, but in the end I always ended up using wpa_supplicant (with hand-written custom config files) + dhclient. There is no tool that does just "connect me to a wifi that I select" without forcing me, sooner or later, to do more work than needed with wpa_supplicant + dhclient :( Life is tough, here in the cave... :D I'll second that ... I gave up fighting with the GUIs a long time ago, I needed to set up quite specific LAN stuff and this was out of their range of capabilities, they messed horribly with manual stuff and had to be purged.. I had come from OSX and older Apple OSes, this is about 15 years ago, and learnt the manual setups required by simply watching what their GUI did behind the scenes. What OSX had set up automagically was easily transferred to linux as the toolchain is very similar. No linux GUI ever got even remotely close to OSX. Seriously when you want a fully automagical GUI desktop with big corporate backing and the market penetration to compel enough hardware manufacturers and software merchants to jump on the gravy train, and your computer activities are as the user of the common multi-media or office applications ... and you can find the cash ... use OSX, you will save yourself a lot of bother. All my networking is configured in a very small number of files, and some one-line scripts with keybindings make switching to a particular network easy. Ceni has been very useful, to detect hotspots etc and write the config stanza for me, then I can always label and/or modify it if required. Simon ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] state of what's working for modern desktop usage
On Tue, Feb 09, 2016 at 09:20:32AM -0500, Hendrik Boom wrote: > On Tue, Feb 09, 2016 at 09:15:28AM +0100, shraptor wrote: > > >Vdev is still in its final stages of development, as far as I know. > > >Running on developpment asd some test systems, but still being > > >thorougly tested on corner cases before being introduced into Devuan. > > > > It is my belief that vdev should go in some testing or development > > repo. > > Like Debian's 'experimental' repo? Yes please! If you think the code is in good enough shape to be unleashed into the public, even into experimental, I'd be delighted to help on the packaging/uploading front. (I know nothing about the workings of udev, though.) -- A tit a day keeps the vet away. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] state of what's working for modern desktop usage
On Tue, Feb 09, 2016 at 09:22:15PM +0100, Florian Zieboll wrote: > On Tue, 9 Feb 2016 11:24:38 -0500 > Steve Litt wrote: > > > For the reasons I enumerated above. I don't use NetworkManager because > > it's too much baggage, but I have to admit, its human-engineering is > > spectacular **on a window manager with a panel**. > > > If you just need it for e.g. an occasional mobile connection, stalonetray is > perfect. > I have to admit how much I envy you all guys. I have tried dozens of those automagical tools for wifi connection management, but in the end I always ended up using wpa_supplicant (with hand-written custom config files) + dhclient. There is no tool that does just "connect me to a wifi that I select" without forcing me, sooner or later, to do more work than needed with wpa_supplicant + dhclient :( Life is tough, here in the cave... :D HND KatolaZ -- [ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ] [ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ] [ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ] ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] state of what's working for modern desktop usage
Steve Litt writes: > Didier Kryn wrote: [...] >> I always wondered why there existed network-manager at all > > For the reasons I enumerated above. I don't use NetworkManager because > it's too much baggage, but I have to admit, its human-engineering is > spectacular **on a window manager with a panel**. AFAICT, it's exactly (that's from hearsay) the same wild mess of layer 1, 2, and 4 information one gets with Windows (eg, grouping WiFi AP stuff [link layer], IP addresses and routes [internet layer] and DNS server settings [application layer application configuration]) and the only reason why you aren't terribly confused by that is that you've trained yourself to expect this particular mess. NotworkManager may be 'spectacular' at meeting these expectations, that's something I cannot judge. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] state of what's working for modern desktop usage
On Tue, 9 Feb 2016 11:24:38 -0500, Steve wrote in message <20160209112438.3f4c8...@mydesk.domain.cxm>: > On Tue, 9 Feb 2016 12:16:08 +0100 > Didier Kryn wrote: > > > I always wondered why there existed network-manager at all > > For the reasons I enumerated above. I don't use NetworkManager because > it's too much baggage, but I have to admit, its human-engineering is > spectacular **on a window manager with a panel**. ..wicd? Easiest Gui 5 years ago, It Just Works, and It Just Worked when NetworkManager et al Trashed my networking. -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] state of what's working for modern desktop usage
On Tue, 9 Feb 2016 09:20:32 -0500 Hendrik Boom wrote: > On Tue, Feb 09, 2016 at 09:15:28AM +0100, shraptor wrote: > > > > >>I noticed too that no vdev were installed, expected? > > > > > >Vdev is still in its final stages of development, as far as I know. > > >Running on developpment asd some test systems, but still being > > >thorougly tested on corner cases before being introduced into > > >Devuan. > > > > > >-- hendrik > > > > It is my belief that vdev should go in some testing or development > > repo. > > Like Debian's 'experimental' repo? I'd like to see it built for stable, so I wouldn't have to run a whole experimental environment to help testing some packages. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] state of what's working for modern desktop usage
Le 09/02/2016 21:14, Mitt Green a écrit :
Steve Litt wrote:
Are you running wpa_supplicant as a daemon? Excluding passwords,
what does your wpa_supplicant.conf look like?
[...]
Are you running dhcpcd as a daemon? What is the command line?
[...]
I mentioned here once, that I use a simple script for connecting
to our local wireless network.
-
$ cat .wifi
# wpa_supplicant initialisation script
echo "Connecting to the wireless network, please wait..."
# Start wpa_supplicant
wpa_supplicant -B -iwlan0 -c/etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf
# Provide Dynamic Host Configuration Protocol
dhcpcd wlan0
--
wpa_supplicant.conf is very simple:
ctrl_interface=/var/run/wpa_supplicant
network={
ssid="yourssid"
psk="yourpsk"
}
dhcpcd is a daemon itself, hence the name
(DHCP client daemon).
I saw your message about NetworkManager that modifies
resolv.conf, dhcpcd does it by default, unless you put
"nohook resolv.conf" to /etc/dhcpcd.conf.
Cheers,
Mitt
___
No roaming so :-(
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Re: [DNG] state of what's working for modern desktop usage
Le 09/02/2016 20:49, Steve Litt a écrit :
On Tue, 09 Feb 2016 15:01:44 +0300
Mitt Green wrote:
Didier Kryn wrote:
In the mean time, wpagui is working fine [...]
wpagui uses Qt, there's no need to pull tons of
packages for one programme, as long as dhcpcd-ui
exists for those who prefer graphical interfaces.
As I stated previously, in my case wpa_supplicant
and dhcpcd work fine together.
Some questions:
Are you running wpa_supplicant as a daemon? Excluding passwords, what
does your wpa_supplicant.conf look like?
Are you running dhcpcd as a daemon? What is the command line?
If you're not running dhcpcd as a daemon, what is the command line?
As Someone already pointed out (I think it was Isaac),
wpa-supplicant runs always as a daemon, for the duration of the
connection. I am running it in roaming mode. The whole set or daemons is
launched by the ifupdown scripts, as the effect of
/etc/network/interfaces. Only the first 2 lines of wpa_supplicant.conf
need to be written by hand.
kryn@apcnb98:~$ pgrep -l dhc
8636 dhclient
9689 dhclient
kryn@apcnb98:~$ pgrep -l wpa
2157 wpa_supplicant
2212 wpa_cli
kryn@apcnb98:~$ cat /etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf
ctrl_interface=DIR=/var/run/wpa_supplicant GROUP=dialout
update_config=1
network={
ssid="Livebox-7e98"
psk="1CAFFAD6B5645669A79EE5994A"
proto=RSN
key_mgmt=WPA-PSK
pairwise=TKIP
group=TKIP WEP104 WEP40
}
network={
ssid="LNCA"
psk="lnca:cd:2016!"
proto=RSN
key_mgmt=WPA-PSK
pairwise=CCMP
}
network={
ssid="Fiordigigli"
psk="hotel1972"
proto=RSN
key_mgmt=WPA-PSK
pairwise=TKIP
group=TKIP WEP104 WEP40
auth_alg=OPEN
}
network={
ssid="Brasserie la Tour"
psk="Latour.best75012"
proto=RSN
key_mgmt=WPA-PSK
pairwise=TKIP
auth_alg=OPEN
}
etc...
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Re: [DNG] state of what's working for modern desktop usage
On Tue, 9 Feb 2016 11:24:38 -0500 Steve Litt wrote: > For the reasons I enumerated above. I don't use NetworkManager because > it's too much baggage, but I have to admit, its human-engineering is > spectacular **on a window manager with a panel**. If you just need it for e.g. an occasional mobile connection, stalonetray is perfect. Florian ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] state of what's working for modern desktop usage
Steve Litt wrote:
>Are you running wpa_supplicant as a daemon? Excluding passwords,
>what does your wpa_supplicant.conf look like?
[...]
>Are you running dhcpcd as a daemon? What is the command line?
[...]
I mentioned here once, that I use a simple script for connecting
to our local wireless network.
-
$ cat .wifi
# wpa_supplicant initialisation script
echo "Connecting to the wireless network, please wait..."
# Start wpa_supplicant
wpa_supplicant -B -iwlan0 -c/etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf
# Provide Dynamic Host Configuration Protocol
dhcpcd wlan0
--
wpa_supplicant.conf is very simple:
ctrl_interface=/var/run/wpa_supplicant
network={
ssid="yourssid"
psk="yourpsk"
}
dhcpcd is a daemon itself, hence the name
(DHCP client daemon).
I saw your message about NetworkManager that modifies
resolv.conf, dhcpcd does it by default, unless you put
"nohook resolv.conf" to /etc/dhcpcd.conf.
Cheers,
Mitt
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Re: [DNG] state of what's working for modern desktop usage
Steve Litt [2016-02-09 17:24]: > I use wpa_gui every time I take one of my laptops on the road, and I > get it to work, but I wouldn't call its functionality "working fine." > First of all, its human interface is ridiculous. Instead of conversing > with the human at human level and translating for wpa_supplicant, it > converses with wpa_supplicant at wpa_supplicant level and makes the > human translate. The thing where you have to go to another tab, press > scan, press scan again, doubleclick, remember the number of the new > network, go back to the first tab, select it, and wait for your IP > address (or not) is ridiculous. Maybe so with Linux (I use wicd with my Linux laptops), but it works out of the box with PC-BSD. -- Hilsen Harald ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] state of what's working for modern desktop usage
On Tue, 09 Feb 2016 15:01:44 +0300 Mitt Green wrote: > Didier Kryn wrote: > > >In the mean time, wpagui is working fine [...] > > wpagui uses Qt, there's no need to pull tons of > packages for one programme, as long as dhcpcd-ui > exists for those who prefer graphical interfaces. > As I stated previously, in my case wpa_supplicant > and dhcpcd work fine together. Some questions: Are you running wpa_supplicant as a daemon? Excluding passwords, what does your wpa_supplicant.conf look like? Are you running dhcpcd as a daemon? What is the command line? If you're not running dhcpcd as a daemon, what is the command line? Thanks, SteveT Steve Litt February 2016 featured book: The Key to Everyday Excellence http://www.troubleshooters.com/key ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] state of what's working for modern desktop usage
On 2016-02-09 15:20, Hendrik Boom wrote: On Tue, Feb 09, 2016 at 09:15:28AM +0100, shraptor wrote: >>I noticed too that no vdev were installed, expected? > >Vdev is still in its final stages of development, as far as I know. >Running on developpment asd some test systems, but still being >thorougly tested on corner cases before being introduced into Devuan. > >-- hendrik It is my belief that vdev should go in some testing or development repo. Like Debian's 'experimental' repo? Yes, something not official but so people on this list could test out. I am on Arch linux derivative and am not familiar with deb-files. Alas I am lost on the initramfs front too since I use busybox->mdev in initramfs I am running vdev with good results though. I know obarun had problem running vdev in initramfs on his Arch-systemd-free distro. Is it possible in devuan to run eudev in initramfs and vdev when booted? As a means to get it to testing more quickly. vdev seems to be stuck in a "which came first, the chicken or the egg?"-dilemma It deserves better. /scooby -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] state of what's working for modern desktop usage
Didier Kryn wrote: >Sorry I missed that, does it handle wifi roaming? It doesn't do more than wpa_supplicant and dhcpcd. And has its spawn in a notification tray. > ...and having Qt installed has never been an issue. I don't see the use of having both as my aim is to have a minimalistic setup. >BTW, is it bigger than GTK? Looking at the ridiculous amount of packages Qt apps pull when I try to install them, I'd say yes. >There seems to be kind of an allergy about Qt out there and >I'd really like to know the true reason. Even more, this allergy goes to C++. There are reasons for it, this is another topic/rant/flamewar. Qt is, in my opinion, slow and bloated (unless it's KDE3 and Qt3 :) ). My two penn'orth, Mitt ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] state of what's working for modern desktop usage
Le 09/02/2016 17:10, Steve Litt a écrit : And we-do-it-all-for-you software makes rolling your own much more difficult, because it epoxys layer after layer of its impenetrable abstractions over what you know as Linux, to the point that stuff that would have been simple in 1998 Red Hat 5.2 becomes a tracking expedition to sniff out the path taken by the abstractions to manipulate the underlying Linux (or do an end run around it). Thanks for this very good explanation. That's all the point. A good UI reflects the underlying infrastructure, it is educative. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] state of what's working for modern desktop usage
Le 09/02/2016 18:17, Didier Kryn a écrit : Le 09/02/2016 17:24, Steve Litt a écrit : On Tue, 9 Feb 2016 12:16:08 +0100 Didier Kryn wrote: > > >> Easynetaid/netbarx is an option, preferably when it is available >> from the repo. In the mean time, wpagui is working fine, as from >> many years - > > I use wpa_gui every time I take one of my laptops on the road, and I > get it to work, but I wouldn't call its functionality "working > fine." First of all, its human interface is ridiculous. Instead of > conversing with the human at human level and translating for > wpa_supplicant, it converses with wpa_supplicant at wpa_supplicant > level and makes the human translate. The thing where you have to go > to another tab, press scan, press scan again, doubleclick, remember > the number of the new network, go back to the first tab, select it, > and wait for your IP address (or not) is ridiculous. > > Then there's the poor documentation of the whole wpa_* line of > software: Few know how it works. Then add in dhcpcd, Ugh! > >> I always wondered why there existed network-manager at all > > For the reasons I enumerated above. I don't use NetworkManager > because it's too much baggage, but I have to admit, its > human-engineering is spectacular **on a window manager with a > panel**. > >> and I used to purge it right after install. wpagui is developped >> by the authors of wpa-supplicant. It takes a little editing of >> wpa-supplicant.conf and interfaces to start, but there are pretty >> good howtos (search for something like "wifi roaming with wpa >> supplicant") > > This is good information. Thank you, I'll search. And if I can't get > wpa_gui to work in a reasonable way, eventually I'll build a state > machine that interacts with wpa_cli correctly, taking its cues and > reporting its info to a GUI I write that looks a heck of a lot like > NetworkManager (but has only dependencies wpa_supplicant, wpa_cli, > and Python Tkinter. > > SteveT > You need little editing after install - it should be done during package installation, but it is not. Then you need to run wpagui only when you connect to a *new* wifi station. You save the config, and then wpa-supplicant automatically connects you the the local wifi station wherever you are. I was thinking of making that UI in ncurses, but the fact is I understand very little of this wifi crypting thechnology which sees a new protocol every year. wpagui fills all the fields of the form for you and you just need to fill what it can't guess: the password. Didier // Well, seems I've been f. up by iceweasel. Probably hit a wrang key. Sorry guys. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] state of what's working for modern desktop usage
Le 09/02/2016 17:24, Steve Litt a écrit : On Tue, 9 Feb 2016 12:16:08 +0100 Didier Kryn wrote: > > >> Easynetaid/netbarx is an option, preferably when it is available >> from the repo. In the mean time, wpagui is working fine, as from >> many years - > > I use wpa_gui every time I take one of my laptops on the road, and I > get it to work, but I wouldn't call its functionality "working > fine." First of all, its human interface is ridiculous. Instead of > conversing with the human at human level and translating for > wpa_supplicant, it converses with wpa_supplicant at wpa_supplicant > level and makes the human translate. The thing where you have to go > to another tab, press scan, press scan again, doubleclick, remember > the number of the new network, go back to the first tab, select it, > and wait for your IP address (or not) is ridiculous. > > Then there's the poor documentation of the whole wpa_* line of > software: Few know how it works. Then add in dhcpcd, Ugh! > >> I always wondered why there existed network-manager at all > > For the reasons I enumerated above. I don't use NetworkManager > because it's too much baggage, but I have to admit, its > human-engineering is spectacular **on a window manager with a > panel**. > >> and I used to purge it right after install. wpagui is developped >> by the authors of wpa-supplicant. It takes a little editing of >> wpa-supplicant.conf and interfaces to start, but there are pretty >> good howtos (search for something like "wifi roaming with wpa >> supplicant") > > This is good information. Thank you, I'll search. And if I can't get > wpa_gui to work in a reasonable way, eventually I'll build a state > machine that interacts with wpa_cli correctly, taking its cues and > reporting its info to a GUI I write that looks a heck of a lot like > NetworkManager (but has only dependencies wpa_supplicant, wpa_cli, > and Python Tkinter. > > SteveT > You need little editing after install - it should be done during package installation, but it is not. Then you need to run wpagui only when you connect to a *new* wifi station. You save the config, and then wpa-supplicant automatically connects you the the local wifi station wherever you are. I was thinking of making that UI in ncurses, but the fact is I understand very little of this wifi crypting thechnology which sees a new protocol every year. wpagui fills all the fields of the form for you and you just need to fill what it can't guess: the password. Didier // ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] state of what's working for modern desktop usage
That's about right, mate is nearly free of systemd barring the libsystemd0 dendency in some cases if you really like that sort of setup it could be an option. Cheers, chillfan On Tuesday, February 9, 2016 4:10 PM, Steve Litt wrote: > On Tue, 9 Feb 2016 11:04:44 +1100 > Sylvain BERTRAND wrote: > > >> Then from a desktop perspective, what should I expect to work? I'm >> targetting usage level similar to gnome regarding network >> configuration, mounting of removal medias and digital camera, etc >> etc... > > Hi Sylvain, > > It's true. Gnome was good at networking, media mounting and removal, > digital cameras, etc. My personal opinion: You'll never reach that > state of "automatic" again, and that's not a bad thing. > > Let me explain... > > From 2000 through 2013 I consistently used "We do it all for you" > distros: Mandrake, Mandriva, and then Ubuntu (later Xubuntu and > Lubuntu). Most of the time, when I plugged in a thumb drive, BANG, its > mounted-self appeared on the desktop (or whatever). Plug in a camera, > and some program pops up with all the photos, ready to crop, enhance, > whatever. Networking, it just works, and if you go to a place you've > never been before, you click the little icon on the panel (taskbar), > choose your ESSID, enter the password, and you're connected. > > Most of the time. > > But man, when these distros didn't fulfill their function, they left > you in a whole lot of pain. NetworkManager fails: Now what do you do, > with NetworkManager having usurped all the Linux networking you ever > knew and replacing it with opaque layers. You change > your /etc/resolv.conf to resolve at 8.8.8.8 and 8.8.4.4, and whoomp, > Network Manager replaces it some time later. That wonderful, beautiful, > just-how-you-want-it Kmail frequently throws off dbus-daemon instances > consuming 98% of CPU, to the point where I had to run a daemon to > detect and kill these. That auto camera program: Turns out I wanted to > edit my pics in Gimp, not in its half-assed editor. > > We-do-it-all-for-you software is tempting, enticing, embracing. Your > software handles all the tech, and you just do your work. But implicit > in this is that you do your work the way your software demands. You > become very slick at the points, clicks, drags and keystrokes of your > software, but you're doing it the software's way, and over time you've > been so seduced by your software that your roll-your-own chops are > rusty and many times you just don't bother making the interface *you* > want. > > And we-do-it-all-for-you software makes rolling your own much more > difficult, because it epoxys layer after layer of its impenetrable > abstractions over what you know as Linux, to the point that stuff that > would have been simple in 1998 Red Hat 5.2 becomes a tracking > expedition to sniff out the path taken by the abstractions to > manipulate the underlying Linux (or do an end run around it). > > The post I've written so far is a long way of saying that > we-do-it-all-for-you and roll-your-own are a tradeoff. Gnome is almost > completely we-do-it-all-for-you. Linux From Scratch is almost entirely > roll-your-own. Most power users (non-newbies who use the computer for > more than surfing porn and interacting with Facebook) want to be > somewhere inside the extremes. And since Gnome demands systemd and we > won't have systemd on our systems, this means saying goodbye to > complete and utter we-do-it-all-for-you, which is a good thing. > > Finally, I submit my opinion that if a person really wants > we-do-it-all-for-you, he should forget about Gnome, forget about Linux, > and buy a Mac. Mac does we-do-it-all-for-you right. > > SteveT > > Steve Litt > February 2016 featured book: The Key to Everyday Excellence > http://www.troubleshooters.com/key > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng -- Take back your privacy. Switch to www.StartMail.com ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] state of what's working for modern desktop usage
Le 09/02/2016 13:01, Mitt Green a écrit : wpagui uses Qt, there's no need to pull tons of packages for one programme, as long as dhcpcd-ui exists for those who prefer graphical interfaces. As I stated previously, in my case wpa_supplicant and dhcpcd work fine together. Sorry I missed that, does it handle wifi roaming? Nevertheless, a laptop isn't a handheld device. I'm a random laptop user and having Qt installed has never been an issue. BTW, is it bigger than GTK? There seems to be kind of an allergy about Qt out there and I'd really like to know the true reason. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] state of what's working for modern desktop usage
Steve Litt writes: [...] >>From 2000 through 2013 I consistently used "We do it all for you" > distros: Mandrake, Mandriva, and then Ubuntu (later Xubuntu and > Lubuntu). Most of the time, when I plugged in a thumb drive, BANG, its > mounted-self appeared on the desktop (or whatever). That's one of these 'feature' I consistently have serious troubles with understanding why it's considered a feature at all. The last time I 'plugged in a thumb drive', I wanted to replace the Linux system stored on it with a VFAT partition I could put some mp3 into in order to play them with a CD player. This meant I had to delete the existing Linux parition, create a new VFAT paritition, create a VFAT filesystem on that, mount that somewhere, copy the files over, umount/ wait until the data was really copied. "Plug it in and BANG, some piece of obnoxious software mounts it in some idiotic place, say, /dev/dsk/u56yttt6w/lo/behold/foo/bar and I have to get rid of this mount and prevent the software from doing that again before *I* can use *my* thumbdrive" doesn't sound appealing to me. Even if I just want to access the files, how's the computer going to know where I want to mount it this time? ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] state of what's working for modern desktop usage
On Tue, 9 Feb 2016 12:16:08 +0100 Didier Kryn wrote: > Easynetaid/netbarx is an option, preferably when it is available > from the repo. In the mean time, wpagui is working fine, as from many > years - I use wpa_gui every time I take one of my laptops on the road, and I get it to work, but I wouldn't call its functionality "working fine." First of all, its human interface is ridiculous. Instead of conversing with the human at human level and translating for wpa_supplicant, it converses with wpa_supplicant at wpa_supplicant level and makes the human translate. The thing where you have to go to another tab, press scan, press scan again, doubleclick, remember the number of the new network, go back to the first tab, select it, and wait for your IP address (or not) is ridiculous. Then there's the poor documentation of the whole wpa_* line of software: Few know how it works. Then add in dhcpcd, Ugh! > I always wondered why there existed network-manager at all For the reasons I enumerated above. I don't use NetworkManager because it's too much baggage, but I have to admit, its human-engineering is spectacular **on a window manager with a panel**. > and I used to purge it right after install. wpagui is developped by > the authors of wpa-supplicant. It takes a little editing of > wpa-supplicant.conf and interfaces to start, but there are pretty > good howtos (search for something like "wifi roaming with wpa > supplicant") This is good information. Thank you, I'll search. And if I can't get wpa_gui to work in a reasonable way, eventually I'll build a state machine that interacts with wpa_cli correctly, taking its cues and reporting its info to a GUI I write that looks a heck of a lot like NetworkManager (but has only dependencies wpa_supplicant, wpa_cli, and Python Tkinter. SteveT Steve Litt February 2016 featured book: The Key to Everyday Excellence http://www.troubleshooters.com/key ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] state of what's working for modern desktop usage
On Tue, 9 Feb 2016 11:04:44 +1100 Sylvain BERTRAND wrote: > Then from a desktop perspective, what should I expect to work? I'm > targetting usage level similar to gnome regarding network > configuration, mounting of removal medias and digital camera, etc > etc... Hi Sylvain, It's true. Gnome was good at networking, media mounting and removal, digital cameras, etc. My personal opinion: You'll never reach that state of "automatic" again, and that's not a bad thing. Let me explain... From 2000 through 2013 I consistently used "We do it all for you" distros: Mandrake, Mandriva, and then Ubuntu (later Xubuntu and Lubuntu). Most of the time, when I plugged in a thumb drive, BANG, its mounted-self appeared on the desktop (or whatever). Plug in a camera, and some program pops up with all the photos, ready to crop, enhance, whatever. Networking, it just works, and if you go to a place you've never been before, you click the little icon on the panel (taskbar), choose your ESSID, enter the password, and you're connected. Most of the time. But man, when these distros didn't fulfill their function, they left you in a whole lot of pain. NetworkManager fails: Now what do you do, with NetworkManager having usurped all the Linux networking you ever knew and replacing it with opaque layers. You change your /etc/resolv.conf to resolve at 8.8.8.8 and 8.8.4.4, and whoomp, Network Manager replaces it some time later. That wonderful, beautiful, just-how-you-want-it Kmail frequently throws off dbus-daemon instances consuming 98% of CPU, to the point where I had to run a daemon to detect and kill these. That auto camera program: Turns out I wanted to edit my pics in Gimp, not in its half-assed editor. We-do-it-all-for-you software is tempting, enticing, embracing. Your software handles all the tech, and you just do your work. But implicit in this is that you do your work the way your software demands. You become very slick at the points, clicks, drags and keystrokes of your software, but you're doing it the software's way, and over time you've been so seduced by your software that your roll-your-own chops are rusty and many times you just don't bother making the interface *you* want. And we-do-it-all-for-you software makes rolling your own much more difficult, because it epoxys layer after layer of its impenetrable abstractions over what you know as Linux, to the point that stuff that would have been simple in 1998 Red Hat 5.2 becomes a tracking expedition to sniff out the path taken by the abstractions to manipulate the underlying Linux (or do an end run around it). The post I've written so far is a long way of saying that we-do-it-all-for-you and roll-your-own are a tradeoff. Gnome is almost completely we-do-it-all-for-you. Linux From Scratch is almost entirely roll-your-own. Most power users (non-newbies who use the computer for more than surfing porn and interacting with Facebook) want to be somewhere inside the extremes. And since Gnome demands systemd and we won't have systemd on our systems, this means saying goodbye to complete and utter we-do-it-all-for-you, which is a good thing. Finally, I submit my opinion that if a person really wants we-do-it-all-for-you, he should forget about Gnome, forget about Linux, and buy a Mac. Mac does we-do-it-all-for-you right. SteveT Steve Litt February 2016 featured book: The Key to Everyday Excellence http://www.troubleshooters.com/key ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] state of what's working for modern desktop usage
On Tue, Feb 09, 2016 at 09:15:28AM +0100, shraptor wrote: > > >>I noticed too that no vdev were installed, expected? > > > >Vdev is still in its final stages of development, as far as I know. > >Running on developpment asd some test systems, but still being > >thorougly tested on corner cases before being introduced into Devuan. > > > >-- hendrik > > It is my belief that vdev should go in some testing or development > repo. Like Debian's 'experimental' repo? -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] state of what's working for modern desktop usage
On Tue, 09 Feb 2016 09:15:28 +0100 shraptor wrote: > It is my belief that vdev should go in some testing or development > repo. If there are free capacities on the build infrastructure, it would make testing much more appealing to have an unofficial (pre)alpha or "lab" repository for Jessie. I just don't feel like recompiling short-lived testing stuff on my ancient machines here every few time units, when I know that there are binaries around anyway. Some notes on a possibly necessary migration from the traditional setup and a list of interesting / untested / critical scenarios would be nice, too. Perhaps as "release notes" - that would be very handy in combination with apt-listchanges. BTW, I don't have a fancy setup here, but can offer to play with debs for amd64. Some headless testing on x86, armhf and perhaps armel is possible as well. Florian ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] state of what's working for modern desktop usage
Didier Kryn wrote: >In the mean time, wpagui is working fine [...] wpagui uses Qt, there's no need to pull tons of packages for one programme, as long as dhcpcd-ui exists for those who prefer graphical interfaces. As I stated previously, in my case wpa_supplicant and dhcpcd work fine together. My two pennies, Mitt ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] state of what's working for modern desktop usage
Gnome is still very much tied to systemd, I'd say go with xfce4 with wicd and iceweasel. Also you want gvfs and thunar-volman for automounting.I use jmtpfs for mounting mtp devices, you might want to something though and there might be other packages useful for working with cameras too. The right way to use auto-mounting is: apt-get install thunar-volman gvfs policykit-1 Cheers, chillfan On Tuesday, February 9, 2016 12:04 AM, Sylvain BERTRAND wrote: > Hi, > > From a debian jessie 8.3 with gnome I did an upgrade to devuan, but I got > many issues: > - I had to remove manually systemd once rebooted > - An apt autoremove actually did remove all gnome. > > Then from a desktop perspective, what should I expect to work? I'm > targetting > usage level similar to gnome regarding network configuration, mounting of > removal medias and digital camera, etc etc... > > (Since I saw that gnome was basically removed, I did install xfce, but > without > network since networkmanager is gone along with gnome) > > I noticed too that no vdev were installed, expected? > > regards, > > -- > Sylvain > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng -- Take back your privacy. Switch to www.StartMail.com ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] state of what's working for modern desktop usage
Le 09/02/2016 01:04, Sylvain BERTRAND a écrit : Hi, From a debian jessie 8.3 with gnome I did an upgrade to devuan, but I got many issues: - I had to remove manually systemd once rebooted - An apt autoremove actually did remove all gnome. Then from a desktop perspective, what should I expect to work? I'm targetting usage level similar to gnome regarding network configuration, mounting of removal medias and digital camera, etc etc... (Since I saw that gnome was basically removed, I did install xfce, but without network since networkmanager is gone along with gnome) I noticed too that no vdev were installed, expected? regards, Easynetaid/netbarx is an option, preferably when it is available from the repo. In the mean time, wpagui is working fine, as from many years - I always wondered why there existed network-manager at all and I used to purge it right after install. wpagui is developped by the authors of wpa-supplicant. It takes a little editing of wpa-supplicant.conf and interfaces to start, but there are pretty good howtos (search for something like "wifi roaming with wpa supplicant") Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] state of what's working for modern desktop usage
I noticed too that no vdev were installed, expected? Vdev is still in its final stages of development, as far as I know. Running on developpment asd some test systems, but still being thorougly tested on corner cases before being introduced into Devuan. -- hendrik It is my belief that vdev should go in some testing or development repo. I am running out of errors to report and fix with Jude's help on my hardware and my very small userbase for alphaOS. It's a bit like arnt said in another thread: if everybody is waiting nothing happens. Maybe there is still issues regarding vdev and initramfs for devuan? Anyway I think vdev could use a bit more users for it to mature. best regards Scooby ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] state of what's working for modern desktop usage
On 02/09/2016 06:21 AM, Go Linux wrote: easynetaid was renamed this afternoon as per edbarx's post to #devuan: As suggested by Jaromil netman was renamed to simple-netaid. Changes pushed. golinux I was waiting for some possible last-minute changes. So now, i will replace netman-gtk by simple-netaid-gtk. Shortly i will push the latest commits to gitlab. Aitor. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] state of what's working for modern desktop usage
On 09/02/16 16:20, Go Linux wrote: On Mon, 2/8/16, Hendrik Boom wrote: Subject: Re: [DNG] state of what's working for modern desktop usage To: dng@lists.dyne.org Date: Monday, February 8, 2016, 10:47 PM On Tue, Feb 09, 2016 at 11:04:44AM +1100, Sylvain BERTRAND wrote: Hi, From a debian jessie 8.3 with gnome I did an upgrade to devuan, but I got many issues: - I had to remove manually systemd once rebooted - An apt autoremove actually did remove all gnome. Then from a desktop perspective, what should I expect to work? I'm targetting usage level similar to gnome regarding network configuration, mounting of removal medias and digital camera, etc etc... (Since I saw that gnome was basically removed, I did install xfce, but without network since networkmanager is gone along with gnome) You could try easynetaid as soon as it's ready for devuan (conceived as netman a few months ago, and sopn to appear as a devuan package). At the moment you probably still need to compile it from source. It does not use systemd. I'm still using xfce on my devuan system, with wicd for my wifi manager. I noticed too that no vdev were installed, expected? Vdev is still in its final stages of development, as far as I know. Running on developpment asd some test systems, but still being thorougly tested on corner cases before being introduced into Devuan. -- hendrik easynetaid was renamed this afternoon as per edbarx's post to #devuan: As suggested by Jaromil netman was renamed to simple-netaid. Changes pushed. that is a really good choice, for jaromils reasons. simon ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] state of what's working for modern desktop usage
On Mon, 2/8/16, Hendrik Boom wrote: Subject: Re: [DNG] state of what's working for modern desktop usage To: dng@lists.dyne.org Date: Monday, February 8, 2016, 10:47 PM On Tue, Feb 09, 2016 at 11:04:44AM +1100, Sylvain BERTRAND wrote: > Hi, > > From a debian jessie 8.3 with gnome I did an upgrade to devuan, but I got > many issues: > - I had to remove manually systemd once rebooted > - An apt autoremove actually did remove all gnome. > > Then from a desktop perspective, what should I expect to work? I'm targetting > usage level similar to gnome regarding network configuration, mounting of > removal medias and digital camera, etc etc... > > (Since I saw that gnome was basically removed, I did install xfce, but without > network since networkmanager is gone along with gnome) You could try easynetaid as soon as it's ready for devuan (conceived as netman a few months ago, and sopn to appear as a devuan package). At the moment you probably still need to compile it from source. It does not use systemd. I'm still using xfce on my devuan system, with wicd for my wifi manager. > I noticed too that no vdev were installed, expected? Vdev is still in its final stages of development, as far as I know. Running on developpment asd some test systems, but still being thorougly tested on corner cases before being introduced into Devuan. -- hendrik easynetaid was renamed this afternoon as per edbarx's post to #devuan: As suggested by Jaromil netman was renamed to simple-netaid. Changes pushed. golinux ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] state of what's working for modern desktop usage
On Tue, Feb 09, 2016 at 11:04:44AM +1100, Sylvain BERTRAND wrote: > Hi, > > From a debian jessie 8.3 with gnome I did an upgrade to devuan, but I got > many issues: > - I had to remove manually systemd once rebooted > - An apt autoremove actually did remove all gnome. > > Then from a desktop perspective, what should I expect to work? I'm targetting > usage level similar to gnome regarding network configuration, mounting of > removal medias and digital camera, etc etc... > > (Since I saw that gnome was basically removed, I did install xfce, but without > network since networkmanager is gone along with gnome) You could try easynetaid as soon as it's ready for devuan (conceived as netman a few months ago, and sopn to appear as a devuan package). At the moment you probably still need to compile it from source. It does not use systemd. I'm still using xfce on my devuan system, with wicd for my wifi manager. > I noticed too that no vdev were installed, expected? Vdev is still in its final stages of development, as far as I know. Running on developpment asd some test systems, but still being thorougly tested on corner cases before being introduced into Devuan. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
