Re: [DNG] top posting, was: Re: Debianising my uploaded version of netman.
On Mon, 14 Dec 2015 14:33:17 +0100 Didier Kryn wrote: > Actually it takes more effort to *every* reader to read it > than it would take to the *single* writer to bottom-post. The preceding is the crux of the situation. SteveT Steve Litt November 2015 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] top posting, was: Re: Debianising my uploaded version of netman.
On Mon, 14 Dec 2015 14:33:17 +0100 Didier Kryn wrote: > Actually it takes more effort to *every* reader to read it > than it would take to the *single* writer to bottom-post. The preceding is the crux of the situation. SteveT Steve Litt November 2015 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] top posting, was: Re: Debianising my uploaded version of netman.
On Mon, Dec 14, 2015 at 12:00:35PM +, Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote: [cut] > > >Hence top-post, should be replaced by no citation at all. And > >when citation is usefull, please use bottom-post. > > I do. And I think Katolaz is disingenious and intellecually lazy in > his arguments against top-posting. > Would you really expect anything more than disingenuity and intellectual laziness from a caveman like me? :) HND KatolaZ -- [ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ] [ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ] [ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ] ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] top posting, was: Re: Debianising my uploaded version of netman.
Le 14/12/2015 13:00, Arnt Gulbrandsen a écrit : Didier Kryn writes: Le 13/12/2015 19:26, Arnt Gulbrandsen a écrit : 2) that people generally remember what a thread is about when based on the subject Arnt, let's be consistent. You assume the author doesn't expect the reader to need the citation. This means that the citation is left only because the author is too lazzy to cut it. Not at all. And please don't use "you" in that manner; as you can see I quote like an old unix fart (at least when I'm using a device with a keyboard). In this sentence, I was meaning 'you' as general, not personal. I'm not a native English speaker and, in French, we commonly use 'you' for 'one'. I thought it was the same in English, sorry. The necessary assumption is that the reader is LIKELY to remember the context from the subject field. Or put differently, top-posting optimises for the case where the reader SELDOM needs to read the quoted matter, but not NEVER. The fact is that, if there is more than one level of citation, the whole citation is unreadable. Or it can be read with a lot of effort. Actually it takes more effort to *every* reader to read it than it would take to the *single* writer to bottom-post. If a writer want her/his mail to be read by many, it is up to her/him to make the effort to format it in a reader-friendly format; and the reader-friendly format is bottom-post, as has been acknowledged by the netiquette, and has been well explained by Simon Hobson. Le 14/12/2015 12:29, Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI a écrit : In other words: TRIM YOUR POSTS? YOU LAZY BUGGERS ! I didn't mean to say it with such a tone of rudeness (maybe I failed), but that's exactly the idea :-) Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] top posting, was: Re: Debianising my uploaded version of netman.
Didier Kryn writes: Le 13/12/2015 19:26, Arnt Gulbrandsen a écrit : 2) that people generally remember what a thread is about when based on the subject Arnt, let's be consistent. You assume the author doesn't expect the reader to need the citation. This means that the citation is left only because the author is too lazzy to cut it. Not at all. And please don't use "you" in that manner; as you can see I quote like an old unix fart (at least when I'm using a device with a keyboard). The necessary assumption is that the reader is LIKELY to remember the context from the subject field. Or put differently, top-posting optimises for the case where the reader SELDOM needs to read the quoted matter, but not NEVER. If the author assumes that the reader is certain to remember the context, then not quoting is appropriate. Hence top-post, should be replaced by no citation at all. And when citation is usefull, please use bottom-post. I do. And I think Katolaz is disingenious and intellecually lazy in his arguments against top-posting. Arnt ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] top posting, was: Re: Debianising my uploaded version of netman.
On Mon, 14 Dec 2015 12:13:20 +0100 Didier Kryn wrote: > > 2) that people generally remember what a thread is about when based on > > the subject > > Arnt, let's be consistent. You assume the author doesn't expect the > reader to need the citation. This means that the citation is left only > because the author is too lazzy to cut it. > > Hence top-post, should be replaced by no citation at all. And when > citation is usefull, please use bottom-post. In other words: TRIM YOUR POSTS? YOU LAZY BUGGERS ! Cheers, Ron. -- Windows VISTA : Viruses Infections Spyware Trojans Addware -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org -- ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] top posting, was: Re: Debianising my uploaded version of netman.
Le 13/12/2015 19:26, Arnt Gulbrandsen a écrit : 2) that people generally remember what a thread is about when based on the subject Arnt, let's be consistent. You assume the author doesn't expect the reader to need the citation. This means that the citation is left only because the author is too lazzy to cut it. Hence top-post, should be replaced by no citation at all. And when citation is usefull, please use bottom-post. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] top posting, was: Re: Debianising my uploaded version of netman.
caveman, simply bother to *manually* delete the unrelated content every single time I reply to an email, and to quote only those bits that I consider necessary to set the context. I have no problem trying this out. I believe there it is also a question of what the mind is used to. For me it is easier to read top-posted emails since that is what I am used to. When I started reading this mailing-list I often missed text further down since I thought the author was done. I remember having the same problems when switching from win to linux. Also at one time I was so accustomed to google search results. I mean the visual representation. I even greasemonkeyed duckduckgo search-results to look like googles. For me it's better to train on staying flexible and have a bit more patience so I will try to not top-post. btw was this email OK? I can report it was a bitch to write using my jolla phone. Just place the cursor is frustrating. also with jolla text disappears so not that easy on smartphone as on a regular comp. /scooby ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] top posting, was: Re: Debianising my uploaded version of netman.
On Sun, Dec 13, 2015 at 11:33:37PM +, dan pridgeon wrote: > Its unfortunate that one cannot highlight the portion that one wishes to > respond to, right click on the selected portion, and click "Respond" and have > the editor do the rest of the work. My email client (mutt) does not have such functionality either. I, the caveman, simply bother to *manually* delete the unrelated content every single time I reply to an email, and to quote only those bits that I consider necessary to set the context. There is no automatic thing that does this for me. Or if it has been invented, I, the caveman, am not aware of it. And BTW, netiquette has never been a matter of tools (most email clients suck, and mine would be consiered at least "vintage" by the vast majority of evolved humans out there, if not antique altogether), but rather a quest for clarity, and it requires some effort on all sides. That's why it is called "communication" and not "soliloquy". HND KatolaZ -- [ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ] [ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ] [ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ] ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] top posting, was: Re: Debianising my uploaded version of netman.
Its unfortunate that one cannot highlight the portion that one wishes to respond to, right click on the selected portion, and click "Respond" and have the editor do the rest of the work. From: Steve Litt To: dng@lists.dyne.org Sent: Sunday, December 13, 2015 2:27 PM Subject: Re: [DNG] top posting, was: Re: Debianising my uploaded version of netman. On Sat, 12 Dec 2015 21:28:06 +0100 Edward Bartolo wrote: > Hi All, > > On gmail threads text is automatically quoted: I have no option about > that, other than selectively quoting parts. Selectively quoting parts is precisely what should be done by every poster, whether they're on gmail, mutt, or systemdmail. SteveT Steve Litt November 2015 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] top posting, was: Re: Debianising my uploaded version of netman.
On Sun, 13 Dec 2015 07:10:42 -0500 Hendrik Boom wrote: > But if I try (hard) to be charitable, what he actually says is that > certain styles of writing *shout* indifference and selfishness. > He could merely warning nice, attentive people that theit writing > styles adversely affect the way their letters are interpreted, and > that they might want to change their ways for this reason. If it were just their own letters getting misinterpreted, I'd say nothing and silently /dev/null most top-posters. But besides obfuscating their own writing, they obfuscate the whole thread tree below their reply. I'm not going to ascribe a motive or personal characteristic to this action and its result, but the action and result I articulated are the stone truth. SteveT Steve Litt November 2015 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] top posting, was: Re: Debianising my uploaded version of netman.
On Sat, 12 Dec 2015 21:28:06 +0100 Edward Bartolo wrote: > Hi All, > > On gmail threads text is automatically quoted: I have no option about > that, other than selectively quoting parts. Selectively quoting parts is precisely what should be done by every poster, whether they're on gmail, mutt, or systemdmail. SteveT Steve Litt November 2015 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] top posting, was: Re: Debianising my uploaded version of netman.
kato...@freaknet.org writes: my nickname is actually KatolaZ, as written at the bottom of all my emails :) On top of that, if you would have bottom-quoted my message, you would have noted that my personal rant was followed by "IMHO", which is short for "In My Humble Opinion". It was labelled humble, but the message didn't sound very humble. It also sounded as if you have never tried to find a rationale for top-posting. If you assume 1) that most people read their mail using clients that show the top part of a message by default and can scroll/page to the rest, 2) that people generally remember what a thread is about when based on the subject and 3) that people are generally disciplined about digressions, then top-posting isn't at all bad. The main content of a message is presented on-screen right away, even on a small screen, and in case the reader doesn't remember the context, then that context is available by scrolling down. Arnt ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] top posting, was: Re: Debianising my uploaded version of netman.
On Sun, Dec 13, 2015 at 07:10:42AM -0500, Hendrik Boom wrote: > On Sun, Dec 13, 2015 at 12:57:29PM +0100, Edward Bartolo wrote: > > Dear Katola, > > > > Would you please refrain from writing insults as these truly prove > > '"indifference" and "selfishness"'? Why would anyone resort to > > bullying tactics to psychologically manipulate those who see an issue > > differently? > > You are right. It does sound that way. > > But if I try (hard) to be charitable, what he actually says is that > certain styles of writing *shout* indifference and selfishness. > He could merely warning nice, attentive people that theit writing > styles adversely affect the way their letters are interpreted, and that > they might want to change their ways for this reason. > Thank you hendrik for your interpretation. Actually, my rant does not want to change anybody or save any soul, and has to be taken literally. I just wanted to make it clear that, in my humble opinion, top-posting is a sign of indifference and selfishness, or at least it sounds like that to me. Then, you can interpret my personal opinion as you like, but you would admit that a certain leap of imagination is required to go from a personal opinion (admittedly expressed in a direct way) to a "bullying tactics to psicologically manipulate those who see an issue differently"... HND KatolaZ -- [ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ] [ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ] [ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ] ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] top posting, was: Re: Debianising my uploaded version of netman.
On Sun, Dec 13, 2015 at 12:57:29PM +0100, Edward Bartolo wrote: > Dear Katola, > > Would you please refrain from writing insults as these truly prove > '"indifference" and "selfishness"'? Why would anyone resort to > bullying tactics to psychologically manipulate those who see an issue > differently? > Dear Edward, my nickname is actually KatolaZ, as written at the bottom of all my emails :) On top of that, if you would have bottom-quoted my message, you would have noted that my personal rant was followed by "IMHO", which is short for "In My Humble Opinion". Now, I personally don't see any way how a personal, humble opinion about other people's writing styles can be interpreted as "bullying tactics to psychologically manipulate those who see an issue differently", but I accept your comment and, in order to avoid anybody to be bothered by my personal idiosyncrasies concerning quoting, I will force myself to make no effort at all in decyphring your replies to this list, which are usually just a top-post of the form "What do you exactly mean by that?" or "I agree completely", followed by a useless, entire thread of thirty emails, in reverse order. In that way you will be empowered to tell everybody that I am the indifferent, selfish nerd. Fair enough. HND KatolaZ -- [ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ] [ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ] [ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ] ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] top posting, was: Re: Debianising my uploaded version of netman.
On Sun, Dec 13, 2015 at 01:40:30PM +0100, Edward Bartolo wrote: > Hi Hendrik, > > Then, what is wrong with my writing style? Be aware that more often > than not, after many hours struggling with code and compilers, I am > usually too tired to write highly logical and appealing emails. > Furthermore, if I leave writing an email for the next day, I will have > forgotten what I did. This means, I have to write my emails > immediately. > > Edward Just this: if you are replying to something someone said, place your reply after the text you quote. It makes the conversation easier to read. And, occasionally, if the messages are getting ridiculously long with quoted text that's no longer relevant, delete some of that irrelevant quoted text. There are a few situatons where this is difficult to do, but they do arise. When it is difficult, don't sweat it. -- hendrik > > On 13/12/2015, Hendrik Boom wrote: > > On Sun, Dec 13, 2015 at 12:57:29PM +0100, Edward Bartolo wrote: > >> Dear Katola, > >> > >> Would you please refrain from writing insults as these truly prove > >> '"indifference" and "selfishness"'? Why would anyone resort to > >> bullying tactics to psychologically manipulate those who see an issue > >> differently? > > > > You are right. It does sound that way. > > > > But if I try (hard) to be charitable, what he actually says is that > > certain styles of writing *shout* indifference and selfishness. > > He could merely warning nice, attentive people that theit writing > > styles adversely affect the way their letters are interpreted, and that > > they might want to change their ways for this reason. > > > > -- hendrik > > ___ > > Dng mailing list > > Dng@lists.dyne.org > > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] top posting, was: Re: Debianising my uploaded version of netman.
Hi Hendrik, Then, what is wrong with my writing style? Be aware that more often than not, after many hours struggling with code and compilers, I am usually too tired to write highly logical and appealing emails. Furthermore, if I leave writing an email for the next day, I will have forgotten what I did. This means, I have to write my emails immediately. Edward On 13/12/2015, Hendrik Boom wrote: > On Sun, Dec 13, 2015 at 12:57:29PM +0100, Edward Bartolo wrote: >> Dear Katola, >> >> Would you please refrain from writing insults as these truly prove >> '"indifference" and "selfishness"'? Why would anyone resort to >> bullying tactics to psychologically manipulate those who see an issue >> differently? > > You are right. It does sound that way. > > But if I try (hard) to be charitable, what he actually says is that > certain styles of writing *shout* indifference and selfishness. > He could merely warning nice, attentive people that theit writing > styles adversely affect the way their letters are interpreted, and that > they might want to change their ways for this reason. > > -- hendrik > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] top posting, was: Re: Debianising my uploaded version of netman.
On Sun, Dec 13, 2015 at 12:57:29PM +0100, Edward Bartolo wrote: > Dear Katola, > > Would you please refrain from writing insults as these truly prove > '"indifference" and "selfishness"'? Why would anyone resort to > bullying tactics to psychologically manipulate those who see an issue > differently? You are right. It does sound that way. But if I try (hard) to be charitable, what he actually says is that certain styles of writing *shout* indifference and selfishness. He could merely warning nice, attentive people that theit writing styles adversely affect the way their letters are interpreted, and that they might want to change their ways for this reason. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] top posting, was: Re: Debianising my uploaded version of netman.
Dear Katola, Would you please refrain from writing insults as these truly prove '"indifference" and "selfishness"'? Why would anyone resort to bullying tactics to psychologically manipulate those who see an issue differently? Edward On 13/12/2015, KatolaZ wrote: > On Sun, Dec 13, 2015 at 09:30:47AM +, Simon Hobson wrote: >> shraptor wrote: >> >> > I must admit I am really clueless to what is considered good practice in >> > mailing-lists. >> ... >> > I am not rude on purpose but I truly don't know mailing-list style of >> > interaction. >> > Should I delete this or keep this? Write here or write there? >> >> In "days of old" it was accepted netiquette that when replying to an >> email, you would quote enough of the original text to give the >> context for what you are writing, and then add your reply after the >> question/statement. The very act of trimming the quoted material is, >> IMO, useful in itself in that it makes the writer think about what >> is and isn't important to set the context - sometimes that may just >> a one liner, sometimes it may need selected bits from several >> pervious quotes. > > [cut] > >> My view is that, especially if asking for help, one should put some >> effort into making your messages easy to read. That ony takes one >> person's time - if it's hard to read then it may take time from >> tens, hundred, or even thousands of people to follow it. If you want >> someone to help you, then it's good practice to make it easy for >> them to do so. If you write in a manner that suggests that you do >> not value that other person's time, then why should they give some >> of it up to help you ? > > Dear Simon, > > yours is a very nice post, which should be quoted verbatim and > entirely (but you know, I deliberately decided to include only what I > considered the most relevant bits, inserting a "[cut]" where deleted > text was placed, just to provide another example of what is normally > meant by "quoting"...) > > Unfortunately, rants of this kind have low probability of resulting in > any tangible effect. The vast majority of people just don't care. The > vast majority of people just want their email to be read, understood, > interpreted, and they want to receive useful feedback, help, advice > responses, without making any effort to convey their message in the > most clear and accessible way. > > If quoting styles say anything about a person, persistent top-quoting > shouts "indifference" and "selfishness", IMHO. > > My2Cents > > KatolaZ > > -- > [ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ] > [ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ] > [ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ] > [ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ] > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] top posting, was: Re: Debianising my uploaded version of netman.
On Sun, Dec 13, 2015 at 09:30:47AM +, Simon Hobson wrote: > shraptor wrote: > > > I must admit I am really clueless to what is considered good practice in > > mailing-lists. > ... > > I am not rude on purpose but I truly don't know mailing-list style of > > interaction. > > Should I delete this or keep this? Write here or write there? > > In "days of old" it was accepted netiquette that when replying to an > email, you would quote enough of the original text to give the > context for what you are writing, and then add your reply after the > question/statement. The very act of trimming the quoted material is, > IMO, useful in itself in that it makes the writer think about what > is and isn't important to set the context - sometimes that may just > a one liner, sometimes it may need selected bits from several > pervious quotes. [cut] > My view is that, especially if asking for help, one should put some > effort into making your messages easy to read. That ony takes one > person's time - if it's hard to read then it may take time from > tens, hundred, or even thousands of people to follow it. If you want > someone to help you, then it's good practice to make it easy for > them to do so. If you write in a manner that suggests that you do > not value that other person's time, then why should they give some > of it up to help you ? Dear Simon, yours is a very nice post, which should be quoted verbatim and entirely (but you know, I deliberately decided to include only what I considered the most relevant bits, inserting a "[cut]" where deleted text was placed, just to provide another example of what is normally meant by "quoting"...) Unfortunately, rants of this kind have low probability of resulting in any tangible effect. The vast majority of people just don't care. The vast majority of people just want their email to be read, understood, interpreted, and they want to receive useful feedback, help, advice responses, without making any effort to convey their message in the most clear and accessible way. If quoting styles say anything about a person, persistent top-quoting shouts "indifference" and "selfishness", IMHO. My2Cents KatolaZ -- [ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ] [ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ] [ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ] ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] top posting, was: Re: Debianising my uploaded version of netman.
shraptor wrote: > I must admit I am really clueless to what is considered good practice in > mailing-lists. ... > I am not rude on purpose but I truly don't know mailing-list style of > interaction. > Should I delete this or keep this? Write here or write there? In "days of old" it was accepted netiquette that when replying to an email, you would quote enough of the original text to give the context for what you are writing, and then add your reply after the question/statement. The very act of trimming the quoted material is, IMO, useful in itself in that it makes the writer think about what is and isn't important to set the context - sometimes that may just a one liner, sometimes it may need selected bits from several pervious quotes. Then along came Microsoft and inflicted Outlook on the world. This defaulted to quoting the entire message and leaving the cursor at the top of the window ready to type. This was at a time when the internet as a mass communication tool was taking off, and so there was a mass of new users coming on-line who had a tool that defaulted to "doing it badly" (like a lot of stuff from Microsoft). At least Outlook doesn't actively stop you doing it right - unlike certain other systems (Gmail has been mentioned). "The tool I use doesn't allow ..." is (IMO) a rather poor excuse when there is no compulsion whatsoever to use a specific tool. Even Gmail supports using an IMAP client so if their web client doesn't work properly, you can still use Gmail while doing things right. Complaining loudly and often to Google that their stuff is broken would also be a good idea - but I fear the few of us who care enough to say anything are just noise in the background and will be ignored no matter what we say. Of course, because all the excess quoted material is off the bottom of the screen, it's out of sight and out of mind - so doesn't get trimmed. Hence when you see emails that, after a few rounds, can get to be hundreds of lines long (complete with dozens of quoted signatures) for a one line reply. IMO the reason for not top posting is summed up thus (I didn't write it) : A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? In real life, if someone asks a question, it's natural for an answer to come after it. A non linear timeline isn't something we are used to - that's only for science fiction. The thing is, bottom posting - though really bottom posting is just a specific case of inline posting - suits pretty well any situation. Top posting often doesn't, which is why you'll often see messages in "the top posting world" where someone wants to reply point by point and starts with a top posted line something like "comments in red" (they have to use colour, because the same bit of crapware that brought us top posting is also crap at quoting properly) and then proceed to post inline. > It's like it's only for those initiated in the secret art? It shouldn't feel like that. It's not secret, though good writing is an art. I agree with Rainer Rainer Weikusat wrote: > 'Top posting' vs 'bottom posting' is a false dichotomy (could also be > regarded as strawman) For a lot of users it's simply that no-one ever taught them proper netiquette and they just assume that the default in what ever tool they use must be correct and/or they just follow what everyone else seems to do. But for many I do suspect there's an element of laziness. I accept that for some they are busy doing important stuff, but for many I do simply think it's a "can't be bothered, I'll bash it out and get on with what's important to ME". My view is that, especially if asking for help, one should put some effort into making your messages easy to read. That ony takes one person's time - if it's hard to read then it may take time from tens, hundred, or even thousands of people to follow it. If you want someone to help you, then it's good practice to make it easy for them to do so. If you write in a manner that suggests that you do not value that other person's time, then why should they give some of it up to help you ? ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] top posting, was: Re: Debianising my uploaded version of netman.
I must admit I am really clueless to what is considered good practice in mailing-lists. I started coding on abc-80 but I only really know bulletin board style interaction(same as git, right?) or personal email. Not everybody was there at the start. I am lost in mailing-lists but feel like I have something to enrich devuan namespace anyway. As a user with roots in Window$ I feel an emotional distrust of local running email clients. Using webmail with little thread or mailing-list support right now. I am not rude on purpose but I truly don't know mailing-list style of interaction. Should I delete this or keep this? Write here or write there? It's like it's only for those initiated in the secret art? Better to just top-post then, ehhh??? Better to keep my input to minimum as to not enrage the old authorative giants, huh!? Is there no compiler for mailing-list emails? maybe there should be? best regards Scooby On 2015-12-12 20:46, Rainer Weikusat wrote: Jaromil writes: On Fri, 11 Dec 2015, Gregory Nowak wrote: I have to throw in my $0.01 here. First, like Edward, I too prefer top posting. I have noticed also that top posting seems to be an overwhelming convention on blindness-related lists. I have seen instances of bottom posters getting flamed on a blindness-related list for doing so. this sounds strange. since its very inception we have struggled to keep Dyne.org infrastructure and practices as friendly as possible for people with low or even no vision, since some of our funding members had such conditions. In my experience bottom posting is fine, as screen readers should be recognizing and signaling the quote prefix '>' and offer to skip over it. 'Top posting' vs 'bottom posting' is a false dichotomy (could also be regarded as strawman): It's really "unredacted full-quote with some text attached", possibly even "unredacted full-quote of something completely unrelated" vs "reply to the text you're replying to and keep enough of the context that readers can understand what you are writing about". There are also people who put their own text below an unredacted full-quote but that's not really different from putting it at the top: Both are examples of an "can't be bothered to express myself clearly" mentality (Reader can figure that out! If not, screw him!). ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] top posting, was: Re: Debianising my uploaded version of netman.
On Sat, Dec 12, 2015 at 12:07:49PM +0100, Jaromil wrote: > this sounds strange. since its very inception we have struggled to keep > Dyne.org infrastructure and practices as friendly as possible for people > with low or even no vision, since some of our funding members had such > conditions. Thank you for doing so, it's much appreciated. > In my experience bottom posting is fine, as screen readers > should be recognizing and signaling the quote prefix '>' and offer to > skip over it. Yes, screen readers can indicate the > at the beginning of the line if the spoken punctuation level is raised high enough. I am however not aware of any screen reader which has the ability to skip the speaking of a line of text based on what characters are at the beginning of a line. There is an option in nearly every screen reader that I'm aware of which can skip reading blank lines instead of saying "blank" but that's all. If you know of screen readers which can skip speaking lines based on what character that line starts with, I'd like to know which screen readers those are. The way I deal with quoting in mutt is by using shift+s. I am not aware though of any other e-mail clients with such functionality. Greg -- web site: http://www.gregn.net gpg public key: http://www.gregn.net/pubkey.asc skype: gregn1 (authorization required, add me to your contacts list first) If we haven't been in touch before, e-mail me before adding me to your contacts. -- Free domains: http://www.eu.org/ or mail dns-mana...@eu.org ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] top posting, was: Re: Debianising my uploaded version of netman.
Hi All, On gmail threads text is automatically quoted: I have no option about that, other than selectively quoting parts. I always make an effort to write clearly, but more often than not, I am exhausted. I am making a huge effort to complete netman, notwithstanding I never earned a penny working as a programmer in my life. Today has been a day of manual work, and I am here, struggling in vain to get dpkg-buildpackage do its job. However, I am stuck, and due to other work totally unrelated to computers and programming, I don't enjoy the full concentration that I would have had, had I been continually working on computers. I would want to finish netman, but that depends on others wanting to direct me. In this regard, it important to note, that like many people, I do not use a fixed style to communicate. Even if I wanted to, I wouldn't stick to it, as I am made in a way not to memorize such things. I don't rely on memory, and actually have to continually reason out things to do what I want to do. Sorry, but not every human mind functions in the same way. The mind, like anything, adapts to whatever abilities a person may have. If for instance, a person has a powerful memory, that person will certainly rely on memory, but if, like my case, a person cannot rely much on memory, that person has to rely on logic. Sorry, but my ability to concentrate, my energy and time are limited, and I have more pressing errands that I cannot ignore. Edward On 12/12/2015, Rainer Weikusat wrote: > Jaromil writes: >> On Fri, 11 Dec 2015, Gregory Nowak wrote: >>> I have to throw in my $0.01 here. First, like Edward, I too prefer top >>> posting. I have noticed also that top posting seems to be an >>> overwhelming convention on blindness-related lists. I have seen >>> instances of bottom posters getting flamed on a blindness-related list >>> for doing so. >> >> this sounds strange. since its very inception we have struggled to keep >> Dyne.org infrastructure and practices as friendly as possible for people >> with low or even no vision, since some of our funding members had such >> conditions. In my experience bottom posting is fine, as screen readers >> should be recognizing and signaling the quote prefix '>' and offer to >> skip over it. > > 'Top posting' vs 'bottom posting' is a false dichotomy (could also be > regarded as strawman): It's really "unredacted full-quote with some text > attached", possibly even "unredacted full-quote of something completely > unrelated" vs "reply to the text you're replying to and keep enough of > the context that readers can understand what you are writing > about". There are also people who put their own text below an unredacted > full-quote but that's not really different from putting it at the top: > Both are examples of an "can't be bothered to express myself clearly" > mentality (Reader can figure that out! If not, screw him!). > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] top posting, was: Re: Debianising my uploaded version of netman.
Jaromil writes: > On Fri, 11 Dec 2015, Gregory Nowak wrote: >> I have to throw in my $0.01 here. First, like Edward, I too prefer top >> posting. I have noticed also that top posting seems to be an >> overwhelming convention on blindness-related lists. I have seen >> instances of bottom posters getting flamed on a blindness-related list >> for doing so. > > this sounds strange. since its very inception we have struggled to keep > Dyne.org infrastructure and practices as friendly as possible for people > with low or even no vision, since some of our funding members had such > conditions. In my experience bottom posting is fine, as screen readers > should be recognizing and signaling the quote prefix '>' and offer to > skip over it. 'Top posting' vs 'bottom posting' is a false dichotomy (could also be regarded as strawman): It's really "unredacted full-quote with some text attached", possibly even "unredacted full-quote of something completely unrelated" vs "reply to the text you're replying to and keep enough of the context that readers can understand what you are writing about". There are also people who put their own text below an unredacted full-quote but that's not really different from putting it at the top: Both are examples of an "can't be bothered to express myself clearly" mentality (Reader can figure that out! If not, screw him!). ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] top posting, was: Re: Debianising my uploaded version of netman.
>> Maybe the VUA's aren't the ones doing the top-posting, and maybe they >> are tired of the issue, which comes up over and over again on the web >> without much effect. >> Short of moderating the list and rejecting every message that top-posts, >> I see no hope of stamping it out. But the moderation overhead would >> take valuable manpower, and would likely slow down important discussions. I reckon a couple of things will not be allowed, like HTML messages and messages from non-subscribers; as it is in Majordomo lists. But these methods prevent spam of course, which is seldsome here I believe (also it saves bandwidth once you send plain text instead of hypertext). Banning mates for top posting is at least obscure. My two-penn'orth, Mitt ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] top posting, was: Re: Debianising my uploaded version of netman.
> > Short of moderating the list and rejecting every message that top-posts, > I see no hope of stamping it out. But the moderation overhead would > take valuale manpower, and would likely slow down important discussions. > > I rarely top-post, even when replying to deeply-nested top-posted > messages. When I do it's usually because I have something to say about > the message as a whole, rather than about its contents. > > -- hendrik I agree. Now, can we please be a bit more tolerant. It would be a shame to drive people away from this list and the Devuan project over something as trivial as 'top posting'. Regards, Daniel. -- Daniel Reurich Centurion Computer Technology (2005) Ltd. 021 797 722 signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] top posting, was: Re: Debianising my uploaded version of netman.
On Sat, Dec 12, 2015 at 10:40:08AM +0100, Rainer H. Rauschenberg wrote: > On Fri, 11 Dec 2015, Rainer Weikusat wrote: > > > This suggests that another 'default behaviour' is "client can't do > > threading based on References" > > I think this is (together with non-text-only-mails) the main reason also > for sensible people to top-post and fully quote in typical > Outlook-/Exchange-environments. > > But for me it seems really weird to have this kind of problems/discussion > also in this environment (where are those "Veteran Unix Admins" and do > they really use Outlook/Exchange these days?). Maybe the VUA's aren't the ones doing the top-posting, and maybe they are tired of the issue, which comes up over and over again on the web wihout much effect. Short of moderating the list and rejecting every message that top-posts, I see no hope of stamping it out. But the moderation overhead would take valuale manpower, and would likely slow down important discussions. I rarely top-post, even when replying to deeply-nested top-posted messages. When I do it's usually because I have something to say about the message as a whole, rather than about its contents. -- hendrik > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] top posting, was: Re: Debianising my uploaded version of netman.
On Fri, 11 Dec 2015, Gregory Nowak wrote: > I have to throw in my $0.01 here. First, like Edward, I too prefer top > posting. I have noticed also that top posting seems to be an > overwhelming convention on blindness-related lists. I have seen > instances of bottom posters getting flamed on a blindness-related list > for doing so. this sounds strange. since its very inception we have struggled to keep Dyne.org infrastructure and practices as friendly as possible for people with low or even no vision, since some of our funding members had such conditions. In my experience bottom posting is fine, as screen readers should be recognizing and signaling the quote prefix '>' and offer to skip over it. Therefore the proper formatting and quoting is crucial and top-quoting may be seen as a workaround when that cannot be done by screen readers, I wonder which ones lack such a functionality. However, my knowledge on the matter is pretty much outdated as our dear member Otello Urso, who was a blind and avid user of our mailinglists, sadly passed away years ago. I'm grateful to anyone sharing more insights on this specific matter. ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] top posting, was: Re: Debianising my uploaded version of netman.
On Fri, 11 Dec 2015, Rainer Weikusat wrote: > This suggests that another 'default behaviour' is "client can't do > threading based on References" I think this is (together with non-text-only-mails) the main reason also for sensible people to top-post and fully quote in typical Outlook-/Exchange-environments. But for me it seems really weird to have this kind of problems/discussion also in this environment (where are those "Veteran Unix Admins" and do they really use Outlook/Exchange these days?). ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] top posting, was: Re: Debianising my uploaded, version of netman.
Dear Rainer, The code of Herbert Schildt is more understandable :) Aitor. El 11/12/15 20:13, Rainer Weikusat escribió: It's the default behaviour of certain e-mail clients and was already (at that time) directly opposed to established conventions for communicating via e-mail. Had Microsoft chosen to split the replied-to text in half and position the cursor in the middle of it by default, you'd now be rationalizing that. I've just accidentally read another of Edward's mails which seemed to be reply to something I wrote but was actually a comment on something Aitor wrote god-knows-where. This suggests that another 'default behaviour' is "client can't do threading based on References" and since "it doesn't make a difference", people just pick a random text for the list address. There's a reason why people like to "rant and rave" about how useless/ overly time consuming e-mail conversation happens to be for them and that's their 'default' refusal to format their messages sensibly. I decidedly don't want to read all DNG mails of the last - how many days? 30 enough? - just to determine what Aitor wrote so that I understand Edward's reply to that_without_ already knowing what the referenced text was. I specifically gave up on trying to write something sensible to the 'realloc' issue because locating the original message about that without 'reading the entire threads of the last 16 years' was impossible. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] top posting, was: Re: Debianising my uploaded version of netman.
Gregory Nowak writes: > On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 07:26:50PM +0100, Edward Bartolo wrote: >> I think, it is irritating to first having to scroll down text others >> have written rather than the text the latest poster has written. If >> the latest poster wants his readers to refer to ealier posts, he can >> state that in his reply. > > I have to throw in my $0.01 here. First, like Edward, I too prefer top > posting. I have noticed also that top posting seems to be an > overwhelming convention on blindness-related lists. [more of this] It's the default behaviour of certain e-mail clients and was already (at that time) directly opposed to established conventions for communicating via e-mail. Had Microsoft chosen to split the replied-to text in half and position the cursor in the middle of it by default, you'd now be rationalizing that. I've just accidentally read another of Edward's mails which seemed to be reply to something I wrote but was actually a comment on something Aitor wrote god-knows-where. This suggests that another 'default behaviour' is "client can't do threading based on References" and since "it doesn't make a difference", people just pick a random text for the list address. There's a reason why people like to "rant and rave" about how useless/ overly time consuming e-mail conversation happens to be for them and that's their 'default' refusal to format their messages sensibly. I decidedly don't want to read all DNG mails of the last - how many days? 30 enough? - just to determine what Aitor wrote so that I understand Edward's reply to that _without_ already knowing what the referenced text was. I specifically gave up on trying to write something sensible to the 'realloc' issue because locating the original message about that without 'reading the entire threads of the last 16 years' was impossible. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
