RE: [apache/openoffice-docs] Test Issue (#2)

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

I confirm that Apache/open-office-docs Issues and Project are operating.
 
TAKE-AWAY
 
Users who want to track the details of the GitHub activity, including Issues 
and Project, should “watch” Apache/open-office-docs on GitHub.  This will 
provide email notices to the email used to register on GitHub.  The one I 
received is below.
 
You can see in the attached screen shot that I am watching (the “watch” label 
is changed to “unwatch”) and the pull-down shows I choose to watch all activity.
 
It is heartening to know that 15 people are watching.  It is important to know 
that there is nothing one has to register for to watch and/or contribute to 
Issues, Discussions, and GitHub project Projects.  A single GitHub registration 
is sufficient for all of these optional activities.  These provisions do not 
depend on being an Apache Committer or ASF Member.
 
You can also watch any of the forks that interest you.  At the moment, 
FJCC/openoffice-docs has been setup similarly so you can watch and also see 
Issues and Projects that the FJCC fork might have while Frances has work in the 
open that is not ready to be submitted to the full project.  You can find the 
forks by clicking on the number of Forks on the Apache/openoffice-docs GitHub 
dashboard (visible in the attached screen selection).
 
There are other observations about how this effort is smoothing out to be made 
separately.
 
*   Dennis
*
PS: My fork, orcmid/orcmid-oooDocs is there for testing and demonstrating some 
things about GitHub operation.  I am not working on anything that I would 
submit to oooDocs itself.  Perhaps more about that later also.
 
From: Keith N. McKenna  
Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2021 19:43
To: apache/openoffice-docs 
Cc: Subscribed 
Subject: [apache/openoffice-docs] Test Issue (#2)
 
Testing of issues and projects
—
You are receiving this because you are subscribed to this thread.
Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub 
 , or unsubscribe 

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RE: Error 500 on some wiki pages

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

The 500 status code signifies a server problem.  There is nothing to be done. 
Infra might be able to address it, or someone with administrator access to the 
wiki.

Note that this < 
https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Documentation/DevGuide/Spreadsheets/> might 
or might not be related to the problem.

-Original Message-
From: Léo El Amri 
Sent: Saturday, May 9, 2020 10:27
To: doc@openoffice.apache.org
Subject: Error 500 on some wiki pages

Hello there,

Pages
https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Documentation/DevGuide/Spreadsheets/Spreadsheet_Documents
https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Documentation/DevGuide/Spreadsheets/Working_With_Spreadsheet_Documents
returns a 500 status code.

"Edition mode" works. I guess the error have to do with the rendering of the 
page. I don't have the rights to edit the pages, and anyway I really can't 
think of what could cause the issue. Can someone look it up ?

(I can ask for the creation of an account if nobody is available for
troubleshooting)

Cordially,
Léo

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RE: [DISCUSS] Places for Installation, Startup, Troubleshooting, Caveats, Tips, Workarounds, and maybe FAQ?

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

Two things,

1. I'm retiring from involvement in community open-source work and moving to 
small personal and family projects.  So I don't expect to do anything on doc@ 
after all.  It seems age is catching up with me.  In 2018, it will be my 60th 
anniversary as a software developer.  In 2019 I'll be 80.  I must seriously 
downsize.

2. On what I had in mind here:

I wasn't thinking of a HOWTO that is specific to the 4.1.2-patch1 Hotfix.  I 
was thinking about the prerequisites.  That is, having illustrated 
demonstrations of what it means and how to establish all of these parts:

  * Ability to access and navigate the file system of your computer.

There are several specific things here, including being able to see 
Details, and to see complete file names.  Then there is getting in
and out of folders.  Some users know very little about that, but if
someone wants to troubleshoot, they need to know.  There is also the
file associations business to show folks.  These things vary by 
Windows version, and now within versions and also settings (e.g., 
there are several different views of the start screen/menu on
Windows 10 now).

Since Zip format support is built into Windows to give the appearance
of folders, that needs to be understood a little.
  
One can provide references to other resources about some of these
things.

There are other ways to learn these things and we could point to some. 
The key thing is that, if we want our very-casual Windows users to
thrive with Apache OpenOffice, we need a way to have them get what
they need to do that and in particular to be able to trouble-shoot,
find their own files, etc.

Etc.


  * Downloading distributions and hotfixes to a
location on your Windows PC where it can be used and its content
extracted.

  * Extracting the contents of a Zip package into a folder from which
the Zipped contents can be reviewed and used.
  
  * OPTIONAL: Confirming correctness of downloads by verifying the 
hash-check (.md5, .sha1, and .sha256) files.

  * OPTIONAL: Confirming correctness and authenticity of the downloads
by verifying the digital-signature (.asc) files using PGP software
and the public KEYS file obtained by you from internet location
<https://archive.apache.org/dist/openoffice/>. 

  * OPTIONAL: Disconnecting and reconnecting your computer from the
Internet and any other network while performing the patch procedure.

The Hotfix README has more places were general proficiency with their PC is 
also expected.  

It takes a "beginner's mind" to tease these things out and to illustrate them 
with screen captures, etc.

The idea would be that in future READMEs, there would be links to where someone 
who didn't know about a prerequisite (or even what it meant) there would be a 
link to reusable material on that prerequisite or its parts.

I won't go into that here.



> -Original Message-
> From: Keith N. McKenna [mailto:keith.mcke...@comcast.net]
> Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2016 11:54
> To: doc@openoffice.apache.org
> Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Places for Installation, Startup,
> Troubleshooting, Caveats, Tips, Workarounds, and maybe FAQ?
> 
> Keith N. McKenna wrote:
> > Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
> 
> >
> > As far as the hot-fix it should not be to difficult to put something
> > together based on the readme files released as part of the package.
> > [/knmc]
> >> So I guess the first thing would be enough skeleton to hang those
> >> bits onto so that it can have permalinks when referenced outside of
> >> the Wiki.  Then it can be updated and filled in.
> >>
> > [knmc]
> > I can do that fairly easily. The question is where do we put it.
> Should
> > it be in the HowTo's section or in the cookbook section of the User
> Guide?
> > [/knmc]
> >>
> I have added an outline as a HowTo at the following link:
> https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Documentation/How_Tos/Install_4.1.2-
> Patch1_Hotfix.
> I can also add a link as an FAQ.
> 
> Regards
> Keith
> 
> 



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RE: [DISCUSS] Places for Installation, Startup, Troubleshooting, Caveats, Tips, Workarounds, and maybe FAQ?

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

Thanks for the comments, Keith.

I only knew that ODFAuthors was already in full operation when the Apache 
OpenOffice podling was created.  I didn't know what the prior history with 
openoffice.org was.

We shot ourselves in the foot with the ALv2 requirement, especially since the 
existing materials had many contributors and at the time CC-By wasn't thought 
to be so toxic as it is for releases.  We still have tons of stuff under PDL 
and it is not thought to be awful.  I think because it does not appear in our 
source-code releases.  

Life is still intervening.  Yes, in print I would put the installation and 
trouble-shooting material in the back of the book.  We can do something similar 
along the lines you align with in the web context, below.

A minimum case, probably not well organized, would be enough web pages and 
screen captures to back up something like the 4.1.2-patch1 README, so that 
people could be shown how to do all of the prerequisites.  Those come in handy 
for many other cases and it would be great to have something to link to for 
situations like the hotfix and especially things like resetting the user 
profile, etc. 

So I guess the first thing would be enough skeleton to hang those bits onto so 
that it can have permalinks when referenced outside of the Wiki.  Then it can 
be updated and filled in.

 

> -Original Message-
> From: Keith N. McKenna [mailto:keith.mcke...@comcast.net]
> Sent: Sunday, September 4, 2016 19:58
> To: doc@openoffice.apache.org
> Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Places for Installation, Startup,
> Troubleshooting, Caveats, Tips, Workarounds, and maybe FAQ?
> 
> Keith N. McKenna wrote:
> 
> > [knmc]
> > I will try to put something together over the next few days as far as
> > constructive feedback
> >
> Has been a little more than a few days, but as usual life has
> intervened.
> My personal belief is that there was never enough thought put into what
> the overall documentation needs of the project were. The User Guide was
> started because many people believed that we absolutely needed to have
> documentation under the ALV2 license. That necessitated starting from
> scratch as the User Guides, Admin Guide, etc. where all under either the
> PDL or CC-BY and could not be used as a basis for this new
> documentation. I do not believe that it was ever intended to cover all
> possible documentation needs, nor should it.
> 
> That being said I will comment on your points in-line.
> 
> >>> -Original Message- From: Dennis E. Hamilton
> >>> [mailto:dennis.hamil...@acm.org] Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2016 10:34
> >>> To: doc@openoffice.apache.org Subject: [DISCUSS] Places for
> >>> Installation, Startup, Troubleshooting, Caveats, Tips, Workarounds,
> >>> and maybe FAQ?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I notice that the User Guide draft does not provide connection to
> >>> topics around installation, startup, and so on, at least not at the
> >>> top level,
> >>> <https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Documentation/UserGuide>.
> >>>
> [knmc}
> A link to the HowTo on installation has been added. Start-up should be
> handled in the same way. As far as "and so on" I cannot comment on that
> as it is far to vague.
> [/knmc]
> 
> >>> The Apache OpenOffice Documentation Project page is project
> >>> descriptive, rather than documentation descriptive, at
> >>> <https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Documentation>.  This page has a
> >>> mix of old and somewhat recent material and a variety of formats
> >>> and works-in-progress.
> >>>
> [knmc]
> As far as I know that was by design. As far as a hodge-podge of material
> that was also partially by design and partially as a consequence of the
> documentation team leaving the umbrella of OpenOffice.org and setting up
> there own site at what is now the ODFAuthors site.
> [/knmc]
> >>> I am particularly interested, myself, in information about
> >>> installation, start up, ways of starting work with documents,
> >>> saving and locating documents, tips for configuring for careful and
> >>> systematic operation as well as trouble-shooting, working-around
> >>> common problems, and limitations to be known about.  I am also
> >>> interested in that information being well-illustrated.  My
> >>> priority, by the way, is Windows first, since that represents over
> >>> 85% of our user community measured by download statistics.
> >>>
> >>> These don't seem to be part of the User Guide project but there are
> >>> a variety of places where better information could be p

RE: Is it time to shut down this effort?

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

+1

> -Original Message-
> From: Andrea Pescetti [mailto:pesce...@apache.org]
> Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2016 14:58
> To: doc@openoffice.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Is it time to shut down this effort?
> 
> On 23/07/2016 Keith N. McKenna wrote:
> > My answer to the question posed in the tittle of this e-mail
> > unfortunately is yes. We have been moving by fits and starts for
> almost
> > 4 years and have very little to show for it. I would like to hear the
> > opinions of others though.
> 
> (I know this conversation moved to the dev list, but I'm answering here
> since it fits here)
> 
> There is some significant work done and we shouldn't throw it away.
> Everything is on the wiki, so we could just keep what we have and
> dispose of the process.
> 
> I mean: we can link to the (unfinished) new documentation from the wiki
> home page, design some template saying "This page is part of an
> unfinished documentation effort, please e-mail [this list] if you'd like
> to contribute" and put it on all pages that are still unfinished or just
> a title.
> 
> Then the risk is to lose a bit of oversight and consistency, but at
> least we show what we have and we give people the opportunity to help if
> the wish.
> 
> By the way, thanks Keith for your documentation efforts so far. And if I
> were you, I would simply relax the process and be available for creating
> accounts for new volunteers and give advice when needed. This way we
> don't have to close or undo anything.
> 
> Regards,
>Andrea.
> 
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[DISCUSS] Places for Installation, Startup, Troubleshooting, Caveats, Tips, Workarounds, and maybe FAQ?

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

[BCC to dev and users lists - please keep the conversation on doc@ for now, at 
least by BCC, since it pertains to use of the wiki(s).]

I notice that the User Guide draft does not provide connection to topics around 
installation, startup, and so on, at least not at the top level, 
<https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Documentation/UserGuide>.

The Apache OpenOffice Documentation Project page is project descriptive, rather 
than documentation descriptive, 
at <https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Documentation>.  This page has a mix of 
old and somewhat recent material and a variety of formats and 
works-in-progress.  

I am particularly interested, myself, in information about installation, start 
up, ways of starting work with documents, saving and locating documents, tips 
for configuring for careful and systematic operation as well as 
trouble-shooting, working-around common problems, and limitations to be known 
about.  I am also interested in that information being well-illustrated.  My 
priority, by the way, is Windows first, since that represents over 85% of our 
user community measured by download statistics.

These don't seem to be part of the User Guide project but there are a variety 
of places where better information could be provided.

It seems to me that there are three ways to have the supporting documentation 
address this.

 1. Add a section to the user guide for covering Installation, Configuration, 
Operation, Troubleshooting, and Removal.  It would need to deal with separation 
of the different platforms (and their versions) in some clean way so that users 
on a particular platform can find what is pertinent to them and requires 
knowing their computer operating-system when it is not the same for all 
platforms.  It would also need to deal with differences in AOO version 
functionality/caveats in some manner.

 2. Use the current structure and update and add the information that seems to 
be important for providing the kind of documentation support I am speaking of, 
employing/expanding HOWTOs and the Frequently Asked Questions to tie into such 
material.

 3. Maybe some combination, although cross-referencing might not serve users 
well unless it is smooth and frictionless (especially around users not losing 
their place based on what they are looking into).

Down the road, I would think it would be good to move The Documentation Project 
to a DocumentationProject wiki topic, and have current relevant documentation 
at the Documentation topic.  Older material about unsupported software could 
move to a separate topic page (PreviousDocumentation ?) and cleaned up, and be 
accessible from the top-level Documentation topic.

Is there some coordination required about this, so that things don't be left in 
a broken, disconnected state?  I think the material could be migrated in a way 
that keeps everything connected even as material is morphed into a new 
structure.

 - Dennis

PS: I notice there were no responses to this question about how inter-version 
changes or specific-version items are identified.

PPS: Something else that needs to be done is cleanup around what is under PDL 
and what is not. I would thing that needs to be attended to in separation of 
Apache Licensed material and anything that must be retained under PDL.

> -Original Message-
> From: Dennis E. Hamilton [mailto:dennis.hamil...@acm.org]
> Sent: Sunday, January 31, 2016 18:17
> To: doc@openoffice.apache.org
> Subject: [QUESTIONS] Dealing with AOO Inter-Version Changes
> 
> I notice that there is checking of documentation against current
> releases of Apache OpenOffice, although that does not seem to be
> reflected in the texts themselves, once User Guide pages are designated
> as stable/"published".
> 
> I know there were a couple of behavioral changes in AOO 4.1.2 although
> that might not show at the current level of documentation detail.
> 
> I wonder how changes to AOO that are user-perceived will be reflected in
> the documentation.  Is not the older form to be maintained so it can be
> found by someone who is looking at such a version?  Also, would we want
> to start marking the first version for which a page or chunk of content
> is current?
> 
> Perhaps that is covered somewhere in the documentation guidance.  I
> would be grateful if someone could point me to where this sort of
> change-accounting and feature-progression has been decided.
> 
>  - Dennis
> 
> PS: Although these questions struck me about the User Guide, if you look
> at the top-level of the MediaWiki documentation section, there are many
> items that are specific to older versions that are (or may be) obsolete
> with respect to newer versions of OpenOffice.
> 
> 
> 
>  -- Dennis E. Hamilton
> orc...@apache.org
> dennis.hamil...@acm.org 

RE: Is it time to shut down this effort?

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

> -Original Message-
> From: Keith N. McKenna [mailto:keith.mcke...@comcast.net]
> Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2016 18:24
> To: d...@openoffice.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Is it time to shut down this effort?
> 
> Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
> > [BCC dev@ (really, this time)]
> >
> >> -Original Message-
> >> From: Keith N. McKenna [mailto:keith.mcke...@comcast.net]
> >> Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2016 10:28
> >> To: doc@openoffice.apache.org
> >> Subject: Re: Is it time to shut down this effort?
> >>
> >> Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
> >>> [BCC dev@]
> >>>
> >>> Please be specific about what you mean by "this effort."
> >>>
> >>> The current documentation approach is to develop materials on the
> >> MediaWiki.  This wiki is typical in that it operates like an open-
> source
> >> project with commit then review (although there is a nice "Discuss"
> >> feature).
> >>>
> >>> If you mean the particular approach to reviewing and approving pages
> >> and having a kind of editor-in-chief, please say so.
> >>>
> >>>  - Dennis
> >>>
> >>>> -Original Message-
> >>>> From: Keith N. McKenna [mailto:keith.mcke...@comcast.net]
> >>>> Sent: Friday, July 22, 2016 20:36
> >>>> To: doc@openoffice.apache.org
> >>>> Subject: Is it time to shut down this effort?
> >>>>
> >>>> My answer to the question posed in the tittle of this e-mail
> >>>> unfortunately is yes. We have been moving by fits and starts for
> >> almost
> >>>> 4 years and have very little to show for it. I would like to hear
> the
> >>>> opinions of others though.
> >>>>
> >>>> Keith
> >>>>
> >> Dennis;
> >>
> >> This mailing list came into existence to coordinate the development
> of
> >> documentation for Version 4 under the Apache License. There never was
> >> and was never intended to be an editor-in-chief. For a lot of reasons
> >> this particular effort has produced a very limited amount of usable
> >> documentation.
> >>
> >> My personal feeling is that it should be recognized that it is not
> doing
> >> what it was intended to and either retired or reconstituted in a
> >> different form.
> >>
> >> I think that my personal position is pretty obvious from my original
> >> message and I wanted to solicit comment from other participants.
> > [orcmid]
> >
> > I am still unclear on what it means to "shut down this effort."
> >
> > Close the doc@ list?
> >
> > What action do you have in mind that would result in a shut down?
> >
> > Also, perhaps a broader request for assistance in documentation is
> called for.  This might go with the adjustments just made to the
> download page.  And there are lists (and the Community Forum) where
> power users might be encouraged to contribute to documentation on the
> wiki.
> >
> > The nice thing about the documentation is that there is always room
> for additions and improvements. Whatever there is at the moment is what
> there is.  Positive effort is not wasted.
> >
> >>
> >> Regards
> >> Keith
> Dennis;
> I specifically did not bring this to the dev list because I wanted to
> illicit responses from the members of the documentation list as to their
> thoughts before I came to the dev list with a concrete proposal. Since
> you insist on bringing it here I will bow to your insistence and express
> my thoughts her.
[orcmid] 

Keith, I think there is a misunderstanding about the purpose of the dev@ list.  
It is the place to work something out in the community that involves all of the 
stakeholders.

The reason for my BCC (and not CC: cross-posting) was so the conversation could 
remain on doc@ but dev@ could participate, appreciating that there are 
participants on doc@ that are not on dev@. 
 
So I failed at that, since the conversation has moved completely to dev@.  It's 
a weekend, so we perhaps should not make too much about the fact of complete 
silence on doc@ so far [;<). As you've seen already, there is discussion energy 
on dev@.  That there is a diversity of opinion and there are differences is not 
a bad thing.  And remember, "don't feed the trolls."

It may well be that the doc@ list is not needed.  Perhaps the way for writers 
to communicate is in the wiki structure itself.  We have the community wiki and 
we have the MediaWiki as avenues 

RE: Is it time to shut down this effort?

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

[BCC dev@ (really, this time)]

> -Original Message-
> From: Keith N. McKenna [mailto:keith.mcke...@comcast.net]
> Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2016 10:28
> To: doc@openoffice.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Is it time to shut down this effort?
> 
> Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
> > [BCC dev@]
> >
> > Please be specific about what you mean by "this effort."
> >
> > The current documentation approach is to develop materials on the
> MediaWiki.  This wiki is typical in that it operates like an open-source
> project with commit then review (although there is a nice "Discuss"
> feature).
> >
> > If you mean the particular approach to reviewing and approving pages
> and having a kind of editor-in-chief, please say so.
> >
> >  - Dennis
> >
> >> -Original Message-
> >> From: Keith N. McKenna [mailto:keith.mcke...@comcast.net]
> >> Sent: Friday, July 22, 2016 20:36
> >> To: doc@openoffice.apache.org
> >> Subject: Is it time to shut down this effort?
> >>
> >> My answer to the question posed in the tittle of this e-mail
> >> unfortunately is yes. We have been moving by fits and starts for
> almost
> >> 4 years and have very little to show for it. I would like to hear the
> >> opinions of others though.
> >>
> >> Keith
> >>
> Dennis;
> 
> This mailing list came into existence to coordinate the development of
> documentation for Version 4 under the Apache License. There never was
> and was never intended to be an editor-in-chief. For a lot of reasons
> this particular effort has produced a very limited amount of usable
> documentation.
> 
> My personal feeling is that it should be recognized that it is not doing
> what it was intended to and either retired or reconstituted in a
> different form.
> 
> I think that my personal position is pretty obvious from my original
> message and I wanted to solicit comment from other participants.
[orcmid] 

I am still unclear on what it means to "shut down this effort."  

Close the doc@ list?

What action do you have in mind that would result in a shut down?

Also, perhaps a broader request for assistance in documentation is called for.  
This might go with the adjustments just made to the download page.  And there 
are lists (and the Community Forum) where power users might be encouraged to 
contribute to documentation on the wiki.

The nice thing about the documentation is that there is always room for 
additions and improvements. Whatever there is at the moment is what there is.  
Positive effort is not wasted.

> 
> Regards
> Keith



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RE: New Doc Volunteer

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

Hello, Rishabha Singh,

The doc@openoffice.apache.org list is for those who want to work on 
documentation for Apache OpenOffice.  The current documentation work is at 
 under "What's New".  The main 
documentation is all in English.

With your Java experience, you might be interested in the UnoTools work.  To 
find out about that, please introduce yourself on  
where development is discussed.

 - Dennis

> -Original Message-
> From: RISHABHA SINGH [mailto:rishabha.sing...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Monday, March 14, 2016 23:25
> To: doc@openoffice.apache.org
> Subject: New Doc Volunteer
> 
> Hi Sir
> I try to introduce in clear manner. I am Rishabha Singh. I am from UP ,
> India . I am a quite java programmer .
> And also I am interested in java Developing . Currently I am working in
> Vstacks InfoTech Noida, India as a java junior developer . I like solve
> difficulties in a opposite environment .  that’s all about me sir .
> Regards & thanks
> Rishabha Singh


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RE: nowhere to point people

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

+1

There are too many old pages.  Meanwhile,

.

I concur that the top-level wiki pages and the documentation-related ones tied 
in there are in need of curation.  It is all right to keep older materials but 
they need to be differentiated somehow and maybe nested where their archival 
status is clear.

 - Dennis


> -Original Message-
> From: Jean Weber [mailto:jeanwe...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2016 22:40
> To: doc@openoffice.apache.org
> Subject: nowhere to point people
> 
> I just fielded a question about where to find AOO user guides that
> came to the ODFAuthors webmaster. I had to tell the person that there
> was nothing up to date and that I couldn't even find the material that
> the AOO Docs group is working on. I was distressed to note that any
> links from the AOO website (such as the Support page) point to the
> very old, out of date documentation from OOo days, with no indication
> of where to get more up to date info. I pointed the person to the AOO
> users list, the AOO forum, and the LO documentation.
> 
> OTOH, it was rather nice to see my book listed on the Books page.
> 
> --Jean
> 
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FW: Food for Thought

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

This was posted on the dev@ openoffice.apache.org, a list some of you should be 
on even though documentation-related discussions are not that often.  The dev@ 
list is the list of record for certain matters.

The list post is something for our specialized lists to understand about how 
work gets done on the Apache OpenOffice project,

 - Dennis

 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Food for thought: <https://communitywiki.org/DoOcracy>

The Apache OpenOffice project, and other Apache projects, are more like 
do-ocracies than any other form of project governance.  The distinct karma for 
committers and also PMC members is fundamentally related to the Foundation 
requirements concerning IP provenance of project code bases and other 
artifacts, although that is often referred to as a meritocracy arrangement.  

For example, no one on the Apache OpenOffice project has executive authority, 
although there are particular accountabilities for committers, PMC members, and 
the PMC Chair (who is an officer of the Foundation).

For another example, there are no assignments to give out or ways other than 
suggestion and recommendation to direct effort.  This is probably what is most 
confusing to outsiders and also to the many advocates for AOO who would like to 
see particular expressed needs met.  

 -- Dennis E. Hamilton
orc...@apache.org
dennis.hamil...@acm.org+1-206-779-9430
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RE: openoffice writer guide 2.0 (column)

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

Sajjad,

My understanding is that OpenOffice Writer Guide 2.0 is an obsolete document 
and we have no means to republish or correct it.

If there is more to do to clarify documentation, please refer to the latest 
Guide and check with documentation now being developed and maintained at 
.

Also, please have this conversation at one place.  Here at doc@ is best.  
Having conversations both here, at qa@ and on other lists simply fragments the 
discussion and loses important observations of others.

Your contribution to clarifying how column balancing works and what control 
there is for it is important.  We want to get maximum value from your 
contributions.

Regards,

 - Dennis

> -Original Message-
> From: sajjad sheikh [mailto:sajjadsheik...@outlook.com]
> Sent: Saturday, February 13, 2016 23:19
> To: doc@openoffice.apache.org
> Subject: Re: openoffice writer guide 2.0 (column)
> 
> Keith,
> 
> This is how it works and this how it should work but was not
> explained properly in guide.
> 
> 
> From: Keith N. McKenna 
> Sent: Friday, February 12, 2016 7:36 PM
> To: doc@openoffice.apache.org
> Subject: Re: openoffice writer guide 2.0 (column)
> 
> sajjad sheikh wrote:
> >
> > sorry for using ur personal mail.
> >
> >
> > but if this were the case as you wrote whats the point of using
> > columns with even distribution as the text will flow across columns
> > without regard to column space or ruling and one can even use a
> > single column instead .
> >
> >
> > And the first line of second column does move to first column as
> > second line in my writer  :/
> >
> 
> sajjad;
> 
> No problem the personal mail. You were not showing as subscribed to
> the list from your first mail so I cc'd you as well as sending tot the
> list.
> 
> On further investigation with AOO 4.1.2 it appears that the evenly
> spaced option does work as you you were asking about. As to why it does
> I am not really sure.
> 
> Regards
> Keith
> 
> > From: Keith N. McKenna  Sent: Friday,
> > February 12, 2016 11:33:38 AM To: doc@openoffice.apache.org Subject:
> > Re: openoffice writer guide 2.0 (column)
> >
> > sajjad sheikh wrote:
> >> Basically i am asking is that after filling first line of second
> >> column, won't that first line of second column move to first
> >> column as its second line and writer will start filling first line
> >> of second column again till both lines of second column are
> >> filled?
> >
> > Sajjad;
> >
> > No. When the first line on the second column fills, text will flow
> > to the second line of the first column then from there to the second
> > line of the second column, ad infinitum.
> >
> > Also please ply only to the list and not to my personal account.
> >
> > Regards Keith
> >
> >
> >> From: Keith N. McKenna  Sent: Thursday,
> >> February 11, 2016 4:59 AM To: doc@openoffice.apache.org Subject:
> >> Re: openoffice writer guide 2.0 (column)
> >>
> >> sajjad sheikh wrote:
> >>> Hi,
> >>>
> >>> can anybody please explain the explanation which is given in the
> >>> writer guide about "equally distribute contents to all columns"
> >>> in columns of section in which it states in distributing text
> >>> evenly "the writer fills first lines of each column followed by
> >>> second lines of each column and so on". this description is hell
> >>> confusing.
> >>>
> >> Sajjad;
> >>
> >>
> >> The explanation is fairly simple. When the box to equally
> >> distribute cont is checked it does just that. Rather than a
> >> newspaper style column arrangement where text flows to fill the
> >> first column then fills the second column, text flows between
> >> columns such that when the first line of the first column is full
> >> the text flows to the first line of the second column and so on.
> >>
> >> I hope the explanation is clear if not perhaps this link to the
> >> new version 4 guide will help.
> >>
> https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Documentation/UserGuide/Writer/Page#Col
> umns_tab_2
> >>
> >>
> >>
> Regards Keith
> >>
> 
> 



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[QUESTIONS] Dealing with AOO Inter-Version Changes

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

I notice that there is checking of documentation against current releases of 
Apache OpenOffice, although that does not seem to be reflected in the texts 
themselves, once User Guide pages are designated as stable/"published".

I know there were a couple of behavioral changes in AOO 4.1.2 although that 
might not show at the current level of documentation detail.

I wonder how changes to AOO that are user-perceived will be reflected in the 
documentation.  Is not the older form to be maintained so it can be found by 
someone who is looking at such a version?  Also, would we want to start marking 
the first version for which a page or chunk of content is current?

Perhaps that is covered somewhere in the documentation guidance.  I would be 
grateful if someone could point me to where this sort of change-accounting and 
feature-progression has been decided.

 - Dennis

PS: Although these questions struck me about the User Guide, if you look at the 
top-level of the MediaWiki documentation section, there are many items that are 
specific to older versions that are (or may be) obsolete with respect to newer 
versions of OpenOffice.



 -- Dennis E. Hamilton
orc...@apache.org
dennis.hamil...@acm.org+1-206-779-9430
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RE: Is the Help Helpful?

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

Wikis provide a structure for creating hypertext documents by cross linking, 
organization, etc.  They were designed for that.  You can think of Wikipedia as 
one giant organized hypertext with collaborative, crowd-sourced authoring and 
editing (and curation by some official editors).

It appears that the project to make User Guides as wiki documents is similar to 
that.  I was using jargon from the Hypertext world, rather than what we may be 
accustomed to here is all.  

I am assuming that the wiki result is intended to be the documentation of 
record.  Isn't that so?

 - Dennis

> -Original Message-
> From: Kay Schenk [mailto:kay.sch...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2016 13:38
> To: doc@openoffice.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Is the Help Helpful?
> 
> 
> 
> On 01/23/2016 03:28 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
> > I was doing some haphazard curation of obsolete material on the Wiki
> and the Community Wiki.
> >
> > In following my nose through various links, I encountered this gem:
> > <http://www.jeanweber.com/newsite/?page_id=92>
> > Aka ITHH.
> >
> > Also, this one,
> > <http://www.jeanweber.com/newsite/?p=373>
> >
> > and this one too,
> > < http://www.taming-libreoffice.com/>.
> >
> > Mostly FYI, although I wonder if there is some gold in ITHH that might
> inform what we do here in creating a wikified hypertext for AOO
> documentation?
> >
> >  - Dennis
> 
> I don't understand what you mean by "creating a wikified hypertext
> for AOO documentation". Can you elaborate?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> 
> MzK
> 
> "Though no one can go back and make a brand new start,
>  anyone can start from now and make a brand new ending."
> -- Carl Bard
> 
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RE: How to Work with Templates Version 0.2 PDF

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

Thanks, Doug.

Concerning exported PDFs, I agree that setting up a Navigation Pane is a good 
idea. I don't know whether that was a limitation when the PDF version 1.4 
document was produced via OpenOffice.org 1.1 in 2004.  

Good luck using the PDF export provisions of current Apache OpenOffice.  There 
are many options to choose among when exporting a PDF and I trust you will find 
ones that work for you.

The document you found, 

 is not maintained as part of the Apache OpenOffice project.  It is preserved 
on the web site for archival purposes only. It is interesting how much 
prominence it receives with Internet search engines [;<).  

Apache OpenOffice How Tos are at 
, along with other 
documentation on the Wiki.  These are now Wiki pages, part of a migration begun 
in 2007.

Based on your experience, I think it would be useful to add a "How to Work with 
Templates" topic on the Wiki as an umbrella for the individual HowTo parts.  I 
also think the  
page could usefully link to the material on the Wiki.  (The parent page does 
already.)

Finally, this list did not preserve your attachment.  You do not need to resend 
it.  We are not maintaining that document.  It might be time to replace it with 
a tombstone document that indicates where this topic is now addressed though.  
What do you think?

And maybe a HowTo on exporting to PDF might be handy also.  Do you have any 
interest in that area?

Regards

 - Dennis Hamilton





> -Original Message-
> From: Doug Baird [mailto:dpba...@fastmail.fm]
> Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2016 07:04
> To: doc@openoffice.apache.org
> Subject: Fwd: How to Work with Templates Version 0.2 PDF
> 
> I got the email address used in the original message from the subject
> document but it was returned.
> 
> Hopefully, this is now the appropriate address or that you can forward
> it if it should have been sent elsewhere.
> 
> - Original message -
> From: Doug Baird  >
> To: d...@documentation.openoffice.org
> 
> Subject: How to Work with Templates Version 0.2 PDF
> Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2016 16:57:14 -0500
> 
> I have found it convenient when I have a PDF that I use as a reference
> documents to add bookmarks that provide an interactive table of contents
> and when page labels rather than page numbers are used in the navigation
> bar.  In the subject document, the first two pages are unlabeled, the
> next 4 pages are labeled i-iv and the final eight pages are labeled 1-8.
> 
> Attached is copy of this document that I edited with Nuance Power PDF to
> add these navigation aids.  I know there is an Export PDF option in
> Writer to create bookmarks for any heading in the document.  I'm still
> learning Writer so I haven't learned how to define sections with
> different page label formats.
> 
> I find the bookmarks especially useful when I save a PDF to my tablet.
> --
> Doug Baird
> dpba...@fastmail.fm 
> --
> Doug Baird
> dpba...@fastmail.fm 


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Is the Help Helpful?

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

I was doing some haphazard curation of obsolete material on the Wiki and the 
Community Wiki.

In following my nose through various links, I encountered this gem:

Aka ITHH.

Also, this one,


and this one too,
< http://www.taming-libreoffice.com/>.

Mostly FYI, although I wonder if there is some gold in ITHH that might inform 
what we do here in creating a wikified hypertext for AOO documentation?

 - Dennis




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FW: About ODFAuthors (was RE: Can we get this started again?)

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

Jean Weber had an after-thought that might be useful to know.

I am forwarding it to the list with her permission.

 - Dennis

> -Original Message-
> From: Jean Weber [mailto:jeanwe...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Friday, January 22, 2016 17:10
> To: orc...@apache.org
> Subject: Re: Can we get this started again?
> 
> Dennis,
> More info, which may be relevant to any discussions on the AOO-Docs
> list, which I am not following. You may forward this message if you
> wish. I'm sure I've made these points on the list before, but people
> may need reminding.
> 
> Many people have the mistaken impression that "ODFAuthors" is a group
> of people who produce documentation. It is not, although its
> predecessor OOoAuthors was a group of people. ODFAuthors is a
> *website* that provides space for groups of people to store files
> during the documentation production process. The only group that has
> been using the ODFAuthors website for several years is the LibreOffice
> Documentation team. However, there is no reason why AOO docs people
> can't use it too, if they wish; in fact, there has been a folder for
> AOO set up there from the beginning.
> 
> However, when talking about sharing files, there are licensing issues
> that get in the way. I'm not going to go into the details, which are
> fairly well known. But that is a separate matter from the possible or
> potential use of the website.
> 
> Lastly, the ODFAuthors website is not intended to be a distribution
> point for published documentation. LibreOffice docs, for example, are
> distributed through the TDF wiki and the LO website.
> 
> Regards, Jean


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FW: Can we get this started again?

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

OK, I understand.  Forwarding.

Thank you for the reply.

 - Dennis

PS: I finally did get my hands on a LibreOffice T-Shirt at OSCON 2014.  I still 
admire your plain one best.

> -Original Message-
> From: Jean Weber [mailto:jeanwe...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2016 02:55
> To: orc...@apache.org
> Subject: Re: Can we get this started again?
> 
> I was not suggesting working on a common shared product. I have no
> interest in attempting to produce docs that could be used by both
> projects. I know how to do files that could work, but my experience with
> volunteers suggests they would not cope with them.
> 
> 
> TDF will soon be announcing a new mentor/lead for the documentation
> team. I don't know what direction the team will choose to take: whether
> it will include user guides in their current form or not.
> 
> 
> I am no longer subscribed to the AOO Docs list. You may forward this
> note there if you wish.
> 
> Regards, Jean
> 
> On Thursday, January 21, 2016, Dennis E. Hamilton <orc...@apache.org
> <mailto:orc...@apache.org> > wrote:
> 
> 
>   Hello Jean,
> 
>   I recently noticed your 2015-12-08 comment to doc@ oo.a.o,
> 
>   If it's any consolation, work on user documentation at
> LibreOffice
>   is also stalled, due to lack of participants, ... .
> 
>   I'd like to see everyone interested in user docs coming over to
>   LibreOffice and working there with a larger community.
> 
>   It would certainly be useful to avoid redundant effort.  I'm not
> clear how the results of shared work could be employed with ease by both
> projects though.
> 
>   There are book-form guides to LibreOffice (and I have a set), that
> strike me as an outgrowth of what was originally the ODF Authors work.
> Is that still the thrust?
> 
>   As you know, there has been no traction to continue the equivalent
> for AOO on ODF Authors.  The current AOO effort seems focused on an on-
> line, wiki-form approach using a structure begun in January 2013 and
> worked on piecemeal since.
> 
>   What would you see as a common shared product repurposed for the
> two products?  Or would you attempt to cover the common parts in a way
> that worked for both?
> 
>   I am curious what your thinking might be.
> 
>   And Happy New Year!
> 
>-- Dennis E. Hamilton
>   orc...@apache.org <javascript:;>
>   dennis.hamil...@acm.org <javascript:;> +1-206-779-9430
>   https://keybase.io/orcmid  PGP F96E 89FF D456 628A
>   X.509 certs used and requested for signed e-mail
> 
> 
> 



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RE: Rebooting the Documentation Effort

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

Response below,

> -Original Message-
> From: Keith N. McKenna [mailto:keith.mcke...@comcast.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2016 18:39
> To: doc@openoffice.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Rebooting the Documentation Effort
[ ... ]
> 
> It is all well and good to talk about having the more experienced
> project people take a role in assigning tasks et. al. However we are in
> the position we are in because we do not have the experienced people. We
> were told on the dev list to go ahead and create a doc mailing list and
> make the decisions on how the documentation should be structured and all
> that. Now we are being told that we should be making those decisions on
> the dev list. Personally I had enough political and turf battles when I
> worked in the corporate world; I certainly do not need them now that I
> am retired and doing this on a volunteer basis.
> 
> I have done what I am able to do and I will step back and others more
> qualified battle it out. I hope that you can find a solution but I am
> not sanguine on that score. As is often the case on large and small
> projects alike, Documentation is the bastard child that nobody likes
> admit exists.
> 
> Regards
> Keith
[orcmid] 

Keith,

Please.  I am saying that things like voting aren't part of how ASF projects 
work on a routine basis, nor is assigning tasks something that is done.  We can 
discuss separately how one operates instead while still having a coordinated 
effort.

The idea is to operate by consensus.  And people are permitted to act.  On the 
wiki, as for other tools, nothing is irreversible, and mistakes are easily 
corrected.  If disagreements arise, let's worry about that whenever something 
like that happens.

I assume a lot of silent consensus is the case with those who operate here.

But for major things, that do require deliberation, the only mechanism is at 
dev@ where the whole community is involved.  I have no idea what one of those 
might be for work on the documentation.  So far, I know of no need.

Voluntary activity is just that and it should continue where it fits best.  
None of this suggests the contributors to the wiki need to change anything.

I only want to point out to Dave that we don't operate by creating leadership 
structures, voting on who those are, etc.  I was agreeing, as I expect you do 
also, that having some seasoned writers and people who know the product well 
would be very helpful in advancing the documentation.

No one voted for you, you rolled up your sleeves and you are making this 
amazing effort.  People respect what you are doing and participate.  You are 
supporting the wiki roster and authorization of editors as a volunteer task.  I 
don't recall there being any high ceremony involved.

That is how it is meant to work.

Take a breath, please.

 - Dennis







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RE: Rebooting the Documentation Effort

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

Dave, I think that having a structure for contributors finding work and also 
finding any guidance they need is a great idea.  Finding some experienced hands 
to contribute that sort of guidance and help organize effort to some degree 
would be valuable.

We need a way for that to be self-organizing without any kind of hierarchy or 
leadership roles.  For ASF projects, we seek a way for leadership to emerge 
where needed but not that there are positions or titles.  

It looks like there are structures on the Wiki itself that can be used to help 
folks channel contributions and have it be coordinated among them.  That needs 
to be used in an organic way, with everything operating by consensus to the max.

It may be that there is a bit more-than-usual process structure here for 
producing documentation on the Wiki and elsewhere.  I think some of this is 
historical, preceding the migration to Apache OpenOffice.  Some parts are 
important aids for coordination and also providing an account for effort, 
changes, etc.

 - Dennis

A little background:

ASF Projects have flat organization and depend on volunteer contribution.  The 
idea is to build communities that are consensus-focused in their operation.  
Voting is considered a last resort although it is required for certain 
activities (such as approving a release).  Formal deliberations must be on the 
dev@ list, not here on doc@, and the binding votes are from the Project 
Management Committee members, although all votes are considered. There's not 
supposed to be any other formal process than that.  There are legal and ASF 
Charter reasons that there is even that much structure, such as every project 
having a Chair that is an Officer of the Foundation.


> -Original Message-
> From: Dave [mailto:davepo...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2016 14:21
> To: doc@openoffice.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Rebooting the Documentation Effort
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> I think we do need a group of half a dozen people with a lot of
> experience
> of the project to distribute the work amongst the others. This group
> would
> need to decide collectively what needs to be done and in what order of
> priority. They would have to be democratically elected by the rest of
> us...
> 
> Regards, Dave
> 
> 2016-01-20 21:57 GMT+01:00 Keith N. McKenna <keith.mcke...@comcast.net>:
> 
> > Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
> > > [bcc: dev@]
> > >
> > > Hi Keith,
> > >
> > > I have belatedly noticed your efforts to reboot the documentation
> > > effort, first in April and again in December, 2015.
> > >
> > > I commend you on this.
> >
> > Thank You Dennis, I appreciate it.
> > >
> > > While people raise their hands, we don't seem to achieve traction.
> > >
> > > I would like to know from those who did not persevere,
> > >
> > > What got in the way?
> > >
> > > Is it all a matter of life intervening?
> > >
> > > Are there technical and communication matters that can be addressed
> > > to remove any barriers that were encountered?
> > >
> > > Is there missing information?
> > >
> > > - Dennis
> > >
> > I cannot speak for others, but  I will add my own observations for
> > whatever use they may be.
> >
> > I think a lot of people raise their hand to volunteer with the
> > expectation that there will be a lot of mentoring, task assignments
> and
> > that sort of thing. We do not have experienced people to do mentoring
> to
> > that level. I am not a tech writer. I am a Manufacturing Engineer that
> > has written some technical documentation as a part of my job. As far
> as
> > task assignments I believe that each contributor knows best there
> > strengths and are better able to know what they might be best at. If
> > someone wants to take on the task of handing out assignments for new
> > volunteers I think that could be a help.
> >
> > Given the recent level of activity, I am cautiously optimistic that we
> > may see some more forward momentum.
> >
> > Regards
> > Keith
> >
> >
> >
> >


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Rebooting the Documentation Effort

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

[bcc: dev@]

Hi Keith,

I have belatedly noticed your efforts to reboot the documentation effort, first 
in April and again in December, 2015.  

I commend you on this.

While people raise their hands, we don't seem to achieve traction.

I would like to know from those who did not persevere, 

What got in the way?  

Is it all a matter of life intervening?

Are there technical and communication matters that can be addressed to remove 
any barriers that were encountered?

Is there missing information?

 - Dennis




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RE: Response to follow-up e-mails Was Re: Use of Ricardo's Status page.

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

+1

I think gentle mentoring will be very useful for newcomers, since there is 
considerable tacit lore that needs to be grasped before taking bigger steps.  
This seems to apply for documentation as well as for working on the code, since 
there are toolcraft requirements as well as practices to become fluent with.

 - Dennis

-Original Message-
From: Rob Weir [mailto:robw...@apache.org] 
Sent: Thursday, May 09, 2013 08:11
To: doc@openoffice.apache.org
Subject: Re: Response to follow-up e-mails Was Re: Use of Ricardo's Status page.

On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 9:48 PM, Keith N. McKenna
[ ... ]
 We definitely need more hand holding, but where are the people with the
 time, inclination and knowledge to do it?


I think even a little would help.  For example, with QA we found it
valuable to give new volunteers assignments when they started, until
they were more familiar with the tools and process, and then they were
able to select their own items to work on.  We could do something
similar.  For example, a new volunteer joins the list and we say,
We're working on AOO 4.0 documentation on the wiki now.  We have
plenty of editing and review work available.  Would you be able to do
a technical review of this chapter here or copyediting of these
chapters or some other well-defined task?

I know this seems a little odd, and I resisted it at first.  We're
talking about a corporate way of working, where someone assigns you
items.  But that is how almost every charity works.  If I show up at a
homeless shelter and offer to volunteer, they don't just let me roam
the building, trying to find stuff that needs to be done.  They have a
volunteer coordinator who talks to me initially, figures out what
skills I have, and then assigns me some items to work on.  I don't
mind, because my goal is help.  I'm looking for a meaningful way to
contribute.  The volunteer coordinator does not impose by giving me an
assignment.  She helps me achieve my goals of contributing.

So it is great that we have the wiki to track the work that needs to
be done.  I wonder if we just need to take the next step, and suggest
specific items for new volunteers from that list?

Regards,

-Rob


[ ... ]


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RE: [Discuss][User Guide]Screenshots

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

I think the 3rd party content exception is listed because Microsoft can't give 
permission to show 3rd party content.  They mention that case generally at the 
top of the page with regard to what Microsoft is unable to do.  (Note that the 
same situation arises whether it is Ubuntu or some other GUI.  There's nothing 
in the GPL about screen captures from an installed GPL-licensed product.)

Since there is no problem with having permission for Apache OpenOffice content 
in Microsoft screen captures, I doubt there is a problem, any more than there 
is in anyone else's install and getting-started guides.

Note, however, that if the Apache OpenOffice screen shot includes 3rd party 
content from someone else, it needs to be clear that AOO has permission to 
display that.

 - Dennis

-Original Message-
From: Mike Tuma [mailto:mtuma5...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2013 14:36
To: doc@openoffice.apache.org
Subject: Re: [Discuss][User Guide]Screenshots

Please ignore my grammatical errors :-)

On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 4:33 PM, Mike Tuma mtuma5...@gmail.com wrote:

 I concur that using Ubuntu for the screenshots, however I find it very
 curios that 87% of downloads are Windows Server users (or does 2012
 encapsulate Win8 also?). To put everyone at ease I looked up the legalese
 from Microsoft, and according to them, we can use their screenshots as long
 as we conform to their rules. The sticky one is number 4, and it is not
 well defined...back to Ubuntu?


 http://www.microsoft.com/About/Legal/EN/US/IntellectualProperty/Permissions/Default.aspx#ERG

 Cheers,
 Mike





 Hi all;


 If there is lack of consensus on whether there is legal risk or not then
 the best way to go is to use a Linux variant. We can put a Note in the
 Introduction that the appearance of some elements will differ from what
 they see in the documentation.

 Regards
 Keith