Re: [docbook-apps] using curly quotes for epubs -- best practices?

[Bob Stayton]

Clarification: English is the default default language. That is, the 
fallback language is set in the stylesheet parameter 
l10n.gentext.default.language, which is set to 'en' by default in the 
distribution.


Bob Stayton
Sagehill Enterprises
b...@sagehill.net

On 11/30/2017 9:19 PM, Bob Stayton wrote:
Regarding the XSLT language code, the template for quote eventually 
calls the utility template named l10n.language, which uses the current 
element () as the context and scans ancestor-or-self for the 
closest xml:lang attribute to determine the language, and falling back 
to the default language of English.  So, yes, putting xml:lang on the 
quote element would work.


Bob Stayton
Sagehill Enterprises
b...@sagehill.net

On 11/30/2017 6:39 PM, Robert Nagle wrote:
Thanks to you and Ron for your ideas about how to deal with this 
issue. Wow, I didn't even know that the quote element even existed.  
Both solutions are interesting:


richard: I notice that QUOTE will surround the sentence with span tags 
and then presumably insert the language-appropriate version of quotes. 
Where does Docbook XSLT figure out the appropriate language? It looks 
like the default language is English, but  if I have a passage where 
the language is different and uses different quotation marks, would 
the attribute xml:lang be sufficient?


Robert

On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 6:50 PM, Richard Hamilton 
> wrote:


    Hi Robert,

    I avoid the issue entirely by using the DocBook  element.

    The  element gives you language appropriate quotation marks,
    and it will also handle quotes within quotes, which is a nice touch.

    I don’t know of any automated smart quote processing in the DocBook
    stylesheets (in fact, I’m nearly certain there isn’t any, beyond
    processing ).

    If you have existing text with curly or straight quotes in the
    source, converting them can be a bit tricky. I use emacs macros to
    replace quoted text with …, and that works
    surprisingly well. I match on the opening quote, capture everything
    until the ending quote, then replace with captured
    text. You need to be careful, since misplaced quotes can
    cause some strange results, and you need to handle both curly and
    straight opening and closing quotes, but generally it works well.

    I think you can do something similar in Oxygen, but I haven’t done
    it myself. Check out this page and look for the discussion about
    “capturing groups":

https://www.oxygenxml.com/doc/versions/18/ug-editor/topics/find-replace-dialog.html 


 



    I hope that helps.

    Best regards,
    Dick Hamilton
    ---
    XML Press
    XML for Technical Communicators
    http://xmlpress.net
    hamil...@xmlpress.net 



 > On Nov 30, 2017, at 16:13, Robert Nagle
    > wrote:
 >
 > Up to now I've avoided dealing with the issue of smart quotes
    (curly quotes)  by simply dealing with straight quotes in my docbook
    source.
 >
 > About 75% of my source comes from MS Word, and I then find some
    way to paste or convert into Docbook XML.
 >
 > Another 25% comes from .txt or from content I actually edit in
    Docbook.
 >
 > When I paste from MS Word to HTML, I often would get encoding
    errors. Even when I didn't get encoding errors, the conversion would
    be inconsistent or difficult to proof.
 >
 > Personally I could care less about smart quotes vs. curly quotes,
    and honestly I believe that the reading system should be handling
    the conversion from straight to curly quotes, but if the work
    involved in getting curly quotes was minimal enough, I'd consider
    doing it.
 >
 > I was wondering whether anyone here has created  best practices
    to make sure curly quotes are consistently implemented. (Does
    Docbook have anything to do with it?). I use Oxygen, but I don't see
    any option in Author mode to use only curly quotes.
 >
 > I usually just paste .txt files into a docbook file in  Author
    mode of Oxygen. I don't really know of an easy way to do
    search/replace without requiring a lot of quality control. Does
    anyone have any ideas?
 >
 > Thanks for your input.
 >
 > Robert Nagle
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 > --
 > Robert Nagle
 > 22118 FINCASTLE DR KATY TX 77450-1727
 > (Cell) 832-251-7522 ; (Skype) 
idiotprogrammer;     Carbon Neutral Since Jan 2010

 >




--
Robert Nagle
22118 FINCASTLE DR KATY TX 77450-1727
(Cell) 832-251-7522; (Skype) idiotprogrammer;  Carbon Neutral Since 
Jan 2010




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Re: [docbook-apps] using curly quotes for epubs -- best practices?

[Bob Stayton]

Regarding the XSLT language code, the template for quote eventually 
calls the utility template named l10n.language, which uses the current 
element () as the context and scans ancestor-or-self for the 
closest xml:lang attribute to determine the language, and falling back 
to the default language of English.  So, yes, putting xml:lang on the 
quote element would work.


Bob Stayton
Sagehill Enterprises
b...@sagehill.net

On 11/30/2017 6:39 PM, Robert Nagle wrote:
Thanks to you and Ron for your ideas about how to deal with this issue. 
Wow, I didn't even know that the quote element even existed.  Both 
solutions are interesting:


richard: I notice that QUOTE will surround the sentence with span tags 
and then presumably insert the language-appropriate version of quotes. 
Where does Docbook XSLT figure out the appropriate language? It looks 
like the default language is English, but  if I have a passage where the 
language is different and uses different quotation marks, would the 
attribute xml:lang be sufficient?


Robert

On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 6:50 PM, Richard Hamilton > wrote:


Hi Robert,

I avoid the issue entirely by using the DocBook  element.

The  element gives you language appropriate quotation marks,
and it will also handle quotes within quotes, which is a nice touch.

I don’t know of any automated smart quote processing in the DocBook
stylesheets (in fact, I’m nearly certain there isn’t any, beyond
processing ).

If you have existing text with curly or straight quotes in the
source, converting them can be a bit tricky. I use emacs macros to
replace quoted text with …, and that works
surprisingly well. I match on the opening quote, capture everything
until the ending quote, then replace with captured
text. You need to be careful, since misplaced quotes can
cause some strange results, and you need to handle both curly and
straight opening and closing quotes, but generally it works well.

I think you can do something similar in Oxygen, but I haven’t done
it myself. Check out this page and look for the discussion about
“capturing groups":

https://www.oxygenxml.com/doc/versions/18/ug-editor/topics/find-replace-dialog.html



I hope that helps.

Best regards,
Dick Hamilton
---
XML Press
XML for Technical Communicators
http://xmlpress.net
hamil...@xmlpress.net 



 > On Nov 30, 2017, at 16:13, Robert Nagle
> wrote:
 >
 > Up to now I've avoided dealing with the issue of smart quotes
(curly quotes)  by simply dealing with straight quotes in my docbook
source.
 >
 > About 75% of my source comes from MS Word, and I then find some
way to paste or convert into Docbook XML.
 >
 > Another 25% comes from .txt or from content I actually edit in
Docbook.
 >
 > When I paste from MS Word to HTML, I often would get encoding
errors. Even when I didn't get encoding errors, the conversion would
be inconsistent or difficult to proof.
 >
 > Personally I could care less about smart quotes vs. curly quotes,
and honestly I believe that the reading system should be handling
the conversion from straight to curly quotes, but if the work
involved in getting curly quotes was minimal enough, I'd consider
doing it.
 >
 > I was wondering whether anyone here has created  best practices
to make sure curly quotes are consistently implemented. (Does
Docbook have anything to do with it?). I use Oxygen, but I don't see
any option in Author mode to use only curly quotes.
 >
 > I usually just paste .txt files into a docbook file in  Author
mode of Oxygen. I don't really know of an easy way to do
search/replace without requiring a lot of quality control. Does
anyone have any ideas?
 >
 > Thanks for your input.
 >
 > Robert Nagle
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 > --
 > Robert Nagle
 > 22118 FINCASTLE DR KATY TX 77450-1727
 > (Cell) 832-251-7522 ; (Skype) idiotprogrammer; 
Carbon Neutral Since Jan 2010

 >




--
Robert Nagle
22118 FINCASTLE DR KATY TX 77450-1727
(Cell) 832-251-7522; (Skype) idiotprogrammer;  Carbon Neutral Since Jan 2010



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Re: [docbook-apps] using curly quotes for epubs -- best practices?

[Robert Nagle]

Thanks to you and Ron for your ideas about how to deal with this issue.
Wow, I didn't even know that the quote element even existed.  Both
solutions are interesting:

richard: I notice that QUOTE will surround the sentence with span tags and
then presumably insert the language-appropriate version of quotes. Where
does Docbook XSLT figure out the appropriate language? It looks like the
default language is English, but  if I have a passage where the language is
different and uses different quotation marks, would the attribute xml:lang
be sufficient?

Robert

On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 6:50 PM, Richard Hamilton 
wrote:

> Hi Robert,
>
> I avoid the issue entirely by using the DocBook  element.
>
> The  element gives you language appropriate quotation marks, and it
> will also handle quotes within quotes, which is a nice touch.
>
> I don’t know of any automated smart quote processing in the DocBook
> stylesheets (in fact, I’m nearly certain there isn’t any, beyond processing
> ).
>
> If you have existing text with curly or straight quotes in the source,
> converting them can be a bit tricky. I use emacs macros to replace quoted
> text with …, and that works surprisingly well. I match on
> the opening quote, capture everything until the ending quote, then replace
> with captured text. You need to be careful, since misplaced
> quotes can cause some strange results, and you need to handle both curly
> and straight opening and closing quotes, but generally it works well.
>
> I think you can do something similar in Oxygen, but I haven’t done it
> myself. Check out this page and look for the discussion about “capturing
> groups": https://www.oxygenxml.com/doc/versions/18/ug-editor/topics/
> find-replace-dialog.html
>
> I hope that helps.
>
> Best regards,
> Dick Hamilton
> ---
> XML Press
> XML for Technical Communicators
> http://xmlpress.net
> hamil...@xmlpress.net
>
>
>
> > On Nov 30, 2017, at 16:13, Robert Nagle 
> wrote:
> >
> > Up to now I've avoided dealing with the issue of smart quotes (curly
> quotes)  by simply dealing with straight quotes in my docbook source.
> >
> > About 75% of my source comes from MS Word, and I then find some way to
> paste or convert into Docbook XML.
> >
> > Another 25% comes from .txt or from content I actually edit in Docbook.
> >
> > When I paste from MS Word to HTML, I often would get encoding errors.
> Even when I didn't get encoding errors, the conversion would be
> inconsistent or difficult to proof.
> >
> > Personally I could care less about smart quotes vs. curly quotes, and
> honestly I believe that the reading system should be handling the
> conversion from straight to curly quotes, but if the work involved in
> getting curly quotes was minimal enough, I'd consider doing it.
> >
> > I was wondering whether anyone here has created  best practices to make
> sure curly quotes are consistently implemented. (Does Docbook have anything
> to do with it?). I use Oxygen, but I don't see any option in Author mode to
> use only curly quotes.
> >
> > I usually just paste .txt files into a docbook file in  Author mode of
> Oxygen. I don't really know of an easy way to do search/replace without
> requiring a lot of quality control. Does anyone have any ideas?
> >
> > Thanks for your input.
> >
> > Robert Nagle
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Robert Nagle
> > 22118 FINCASTLE DR KATY TX 77450-1727
> > (Cell) 832-251-7522; (Skype) idiotprogrammer;  Carbon Neutral Since Jan
> 2010
> >
>
>


-- 
Robert Nagle
22118 FINCASTLE DR KATY TX 77450-1727
(Cell) 832-251-7522; (Skype) idiotprogrammer;  Carbon Neutral Since Jan 2010

Re: [docbook-apps] using curly quotes for epubs -- best practices?

[Ron Catterall]

I use entities to separate open an close single and double quotes, 's
etc.  Conversion can be of 'straight' quotes can done to about the 90%
level by looking at the environment of 'straight' quotes in a regex
search throughout a set of files.

e.g.

   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   


On 11/30/2017 06:13 PM, Robert Nagle wrote:

Up to now I've avoided dealing with the issue of smart quotes (curly
quotes)  by simply dealing with straight quotes in my docbook source.

About 75% of my source comes from MS Word, and I then find some way to
paste or convert into Docbook XML.

Another 25% comes from .txt or from content I actually edit in Docbook.

When I paste from MS Word to HTML, I often would get encoding errors.
Even when I didn't get encoding errors, the conversion would be
inconsistent or difficult to proof.

Personally I could care less about smart quotes vs. curly quotes, and
honestly I believe that the reading system should be handling the
conversion from straight to curly quotes, but if the work involved in
getting curly quotes was minimal enough, I'd consider doing it.

I was wondering whether anyone here has created  best practices to
make sure curly quotes are consistently implemented. (Does Docbook
have anything to do with it?). I use Oxygen, but I don't see any
option in Author mode to use only curly quotes.

I usually just paste .txt files into a docbook file in Author mode of
Oxygen. I don't really know of an easy way to do search/replace
without requiring a lot of quality control. Does anyone have any ideas?

Thanks for your input.

Robert Nagle





--
Robert Nagle
22118 FINCASTLE DR KATY TX 77450-1727
(Cell) 832-251-7522; (Skype) idiotprogrammer;  Carbon Neutral Since
Jan 2010



--
Ron Catterall
r...@catterall.net

Re: [docbook-apps] using curly quotes for epubs -- best practices?

[Richard Hamilton]

Hi Robert,

I avoid the issue entirely by using the DocBook  element.

The  element gives you language appropriate quotation marks, and it will 
also handle quotes within quotes, which is a nice touch.

I don’t know of any automated smart quote processing in the DocBook stylesheets 
(in fact, I’m nearly certain there isn’t any, beyond processing ).

If you have existing text with curly or straight quotes in the source, 
converting them can be a bit tricky. I use emacs macros to replace quoted text 
with …, and that works surprisingly well. I match on the opening 
quote, capture everything until the ending quote, then replace with 
captured text. You need to be careful, since misplaced quotes 
can cause some strange results, and you need to handle both curly and straight 
opening and closing quotes, but generally it works well.

I think you can do something similar in Oxygen, but I haven’t done it myself. 
Check out this page and look for the discussion about “capturing groups": 
https://www.oxygenxml.com/doc/versions/18/ug-editor/topics/find-replace-dialog.html

I hope that helps.

Best regards,
Dick Hamilton
---
XML Press
XML for Technical Communicators
http://xmlpress.net
hamil...@xmlpress.net



> On Nov 30, 2017, at 16:13, Robert Nagle  wrote:
> 
> Up to now I've avoided dealing with the issue of smart quotes (curly quotes)  
> by simply dealing with straight quotes in my docbook source. 
> 
> About 75% of my source comes from MS Word, and I then find some way to paste 
> or convert into Docbook XML. 
> 
> Another 25% comes from .txt or from content I actually edit in Docbook. 
> 
> When I paste from MS Word to HTML, I often would get encoding errors. Even 
> when I didn't get encoding errors, the conversion would be inconsistent or 
> difficult to proof. 
> 
> Personally I could care less about smart quotes vs. curly quotes, and 
> honestly I believe that the reading system should be handling the conversion 
> from straight to curly quotes, but if the work involved in getting curly 
> quotes was minimal enough, I'd consider doing it. 
> 
> I was wondering whether anyone here has created  best practices to make sure 
> curly quotes are consistently implemented. (Does Docbook have anything to do 
> with it?). I use Oxygen, but I don't see any option in Author mode to use 
> only curly quotes. 
> 
> I usually just paste .txt files into a docbook file in  Author mode of 
> Oxygen. I don't really know of an easy way to do search/replace without 
> requiring a lot of quality control. Does anyone have any ideas? 
> 
> Thanks for your input. 
> 
> Robert Nagle
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Robert Nagle
> 22118 FINCASTLE DR KATY TX 77450-1727
> (Cell) 832-251-7522; (Skype) idiotprogrammer;  Carbon Neutral Since Jan 2010
> 


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[docbook-apps] using curly quotes for epubs -- best practices?

[Robert Nagle]

Up to now I've avoided dealing with the issue of smart quotes (curly
quotes)  by simply dealing with straight quotes in my docbook source.

About 75% of my source comes from MS Word, and I then find some way to
paste or convert into Docbook XML.

Another 25% comes from .txt or from content I actually edit in Docbook.

When I paste from MS Word to HTML, I often would get encoding errors. Even
when I didn't get encoding errors, the conversion would be inconsistent or
difficult to proof.

Personally I could care less about smart quotes vs. curly quotes, and
honestly I believe that the reading system should be handling the
conversion from straight to curly quotes, but if the work involved in
getting curly quotes was minimal enough, I'd consider doing it.

I was wondering whether anyone here has created  best practices to make
sure curly quotes are consistently implemented. (Does Docbook have anything
to do with it?). I use Oxygen, but I don't see any option in Author mode to
use only curly quotes.

I usually just paste .txt files into a docbook file in  Author mode of
Oxygen. I don't really know of an easy way to do search/replace without
requiring a lot of quality control. Does anyone have any ideas?

Thanks for your input.

Robert Nagle





-- 
Robert Nagle
22118 FINCASTLE DR KATY TX 77450-1727
(Cell) 832-251-7522; (Skype) idiotprogrammer;  Carbon Neutral Since Jan 2010