Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Re: Terminology: selecting is not enough!
Hi Marc, On 20/02/2011 11:31, Marc Paré wrote: [...] Thanks Sophie for this information. So, the point here it that there is no central location where we can find this information on our wiki. When people were with OOo, was this information posted publicly on the OOo wiki? Or is it just files that people pass on from one person to the next? It would be interesting to have all that information (from all groups) just available on the wiki for public viewing and reference. It is on the OOo FR site and will be on the LibO FR wiki. The l1on process was not organized yet so I didn't settle this part on the wiki (most of the time I'm alone to work on it, so the need is not under pressure ;-) The central location for native language groups is their site and their wiki, the international things most of the time have no interest for them, this is not where they feel at home. Kind regards Sophie -- Founding member of The Document Foundation -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to documentation+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/documentation/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Re: Terminology: selecting is not enough!
Hi Marc, On 20/02/2011 11:50, Marc Paré wrote: Le 2011-02-20 03:40, Sophie Gautier a écrit : Hi Marc, On 20/02/2011 11:31, Marc Paré wrote: [...] Thanks Sophie for this information. So, the point here it that there is no central location where we can find this information on our wiki. When people were with OOo, was this information posted publicly on the OOo wiki? Or is it just files that people pass on from one person to the next? It would be interesting to have all that information (from all groups) just available on the wiki for public viewing and reference. It is on the OOo FR site and will be on the LibO FR wiki. The l1on process was not organized yet so I didn't settle this part on the wiki (most of the time I'm alone to work on it, so the need is not under pressure ;-) The central location for native language groups is their site and their wiki, the international things most of the time have no interest for them, this is not where they feel at home. Kind regards Sophie Ah. OK. So it will eventually be migrated onto our site. It will be, it's just that the organization of the l10n teams is not finished yet, and the FR part is not set. Thanks for all the work you do. We know that it takes a lot of time and that we are often a little impatient for the things we would like to have at our disposal. I can relate as I am trying to keep the Marketing section organized and it can often get really busy. Thanks for the work you do too :-) Maybe I'll check in on this later and if there is a need for any help in migrating the files from the OOo site I could help out. Ok, thanks for your offer to help. The month is ending next week so I guess it will be online next month ;-) The English guides will be there: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/TipsTricksl10n The French one will be there: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/FR/L10n Kind regards Sophie -- Founding member of The Document Foundation -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to documentation+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/documentation/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Re: Terminology: selecting is not enough!
On 2/17/2011 10:12 PM, Hal Parker wrote: What terms does the LibreOffice Help use? I thought that was our main terminology selection criterion. Hal The things we're discussing here are, I think, too context-sensitive to be readily searchable. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to documentation+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/documentation/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Re: Terminology: selecting is not enough!
Hi, :-) Yes, we had the discussion about what variety of Engish to use a while back. The consensus at the time was US spelling and terminology. IMHO, one of the biggest aids to comprehensibility is careful and thoughtful punctation. But I also try not to be lazy in my English and to be careful about relative pronouns [1] and subordinating conjunctions [2]. One good idea, as suggested by Barbara or Hal, is to build-up a separate and brief glossary of terminology explaining our conventions. It could be useful to end users but it would especially be an aid for translators. As I mentioned previously, activate and deactivate are terms I use a lot, but I do tend to vary my vocabulary so that the style isn't too stilted and wooden. I generally attribute two ha'porth of common sense to the reader. My 2 cents... [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relative_pronoun [2] http://englishplus.com/grammar/0377.htm David Nelson -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to documentation+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/documentation/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Re: Terminology: selecting is not enough!
Hi Marc, On 20/02/2011 06:37, Marc Paré wrote: Le 2011-02-19 22:05, David Nelson a écrit : Hi, :-) Yes, we had the discussion about what variety of Engish to use a while back. The consensus at the time was US spelling and terminology. IMHO, one of the biggest aids to comprehensibility is careful and thoughtful punctation. But I also try not to be lazy in my English and to be careful about relative pronouns [1] and subordinating conjunctions [2]. One good idea, as suggested by Barbara or Hal, is to build-up a separate and brief glossary of terminology explaining our conventions. It could be useful to end users but it would especially be an aid for translators. As I mentioned previously, activate and deactivate are terms I use a lot, but I do tend to vary my vocabulary so that the style isn't too stilted and wooden. I generally attribute two ha'porth of common sense to the reader. My 2 cents... [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relative_pronoun [2] http://englishplus.com/grammar/0377.htm David Nelson Hi David et al: This is somewhat what I was wondering today. I thought that it would be useful if instead there were a LibreOffice Style Manual that we could all share between documentation, website, design and marketing. Such an example is the Google style manual pages[1]. All of the different NL groups could develop their own and these would be a point of reference for users and members when in search of usage, formatting or styling questions. The l10n teams have already style guides, glossaries, terminology and TMX files. I can send you the French ones if you like (l10nFR section is not up so not available for LO currently, only for OOo). They are available to the Documentation and Marketing teams but not used from what I've seen in the FR community, mostly because this is all oriented for localization when they create their own material. There is also the fact that the more you bind people to rules or constraints, the less they are going to participate. The most important is the respect of the UI labels, if the rest is different it's not very important. Several communities have a lot of documentations, developed/written in very different ways and users seems to find what they need with that any way. Kind regards Sophie -- Founding member of The Document Foundation -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to documentation+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/documentation/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Re: Terminology: selecting is not enough!
Hi :) Most documentation just confuses people so copying what they use probably wont help us. If we are going to look at documentation then a community edited one would be better, such as Ubuntu's but it would need to be regularly edited bynoobs rather than by geeks so perhaps Ubuntu's might be the best one to look at. Documentation for Windows apps tends to be the most confusing documentation for most people. Greyed out is a very geeky term. Admittedly low-level geeks but still not an average user. Check is kinda American. In English it tends to mean a method of payment or to stop and look around or as described. Tick the option might be a good way to say it but UNtick confuses people. Select means to to choose and that seems to make sense to people. Regards from Tom :) From: Barbara Duprey b...@onr.com To: documentation@libreoffice.org Sent: Fri, 18 February, 2011 3:46:02 Subject: Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Re: Terminology: selecting is not enough! On 2/17/2011 8:36 PM, JDługosz wrote: Barbara Duprey wrote: I have another problem with the enabled/disabled terminology -- I think it can easily be misunderstood as modifiable/unmodifiable (available/grayed out). This terminology is not in common use and I think it would be more confusing than helpful. Often click would be a reasonable substitute, but I have no problem with select and definitely prefer it for options in a list, for example. select is a synonym for choose and would be applicable for a drop-down combo-box or a set of radio buttons. But for checking/unchecking a check box, it is simply the wrong word. You are not selecting one option from all of them on the page; you are individually turning each option on or off. I agree, disabled is used for graying out a menu item, at least in the Win32 API. Popular use is just grayed out though. clicking a check box does not mean ensure it is checked. The action of clicking it will probably toggle it. It is correct to click a button, though. How about check? Well, as a verb it means hinder or restrain so un-checking the Foo option will check the operation of Foo. Or it means inspect which will find out what it is; so you want to check your margin settings when setting up the page. So, don't use check to mean mark as a verb, in this context. The text in the document that you indicate by swiping the mouse is The Selection, and you select some text before hitting the bold tool, for example. Selecting a named item from a combo-box is acceptable usage. I think we should focus on explaining what the various options indicate, rather than directing the user to click on them or saying that the effect would happen if the user enabled them. That is to be understood: just state the effect itself! I just went to another program at random: the context help for the Options page on Firefox reads, When this option is enabled, Firefox will... On Notepad++, Check the option to ... On XYplorer, some don't use a state or verb, just lists the meaning without preamble. Others use check/uncheck. 7-zip: on the file manager options, most of the time doesn't use any preamble. E.g. Displays gridlines around items and subitems. Some uses of select. The rest use enabled. Foxit reader: on the printing help, select is followed by from a list. No preamble for options explanations, but they are mostly radio buttons. So, I think there is lots of competition against select to mean mark on. --John Good points, I'll incorporate this into the terminology document for us all to collaborate on. As I said, I don't expect a single answer here, it depends on the type of UI item involved, and sometimes on the behavior resulting from the choice. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to documentation+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/documentation/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity *** -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to documentation+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/documentation/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Re: Terminology: selecting is not enough!
Yeah but it's a bit posh or sci-fi. I like it but then i also liked Defying Gravity and that was so unpopular it only lasted 1 season. There are some great suggestions in this thread so i think they should be in a glossary. Perhaps we shouldn't try to be too consistent because people can always look things up in the glossary. Activate might be good when there is an instant highly visible spectacular result. Regards from Tom :) From: JDługosz d6474gh...@snkmail.com To: documentation@libreoffice.org Sent: Fri, 18 February, 2011 1:58:02 Subject: [libreoffice-documentation] Re: Terminology: selecting is not enough! Activate/Deactivate works for me. -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Terminology-selecting-is-not-enough-tp2507713p2523914.html Sent from the Documentation mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to documentation+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/documentation/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity *** -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to documentation+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/documentation/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Re: Terminology: selecting is not enough!
Hi Hal, On 18/02/2011 07:12, Hal Parker wrote: What terms does the LibreOffice Help use? I thought that was our main terminology selection criterion. I didn't read all the thread, what are the terms you're searching for? - select - mark - check - ?? are there others? Kind regards sophie -- Founding member of The Document Foundation -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to documentation+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/documentation/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
