Re: [Dorset] Cloud Computing - Stallman's take
Hi Terry, Who can swear that Google or Amazon might not have a similar catastrophe as the years go by? I don't see a problem with web apps as long as the user's aware that they need their own copy of the data in a usable format, and that the site may fold tomorrow with no notice. For instance, if I used Gmail as my mail email client, then I'd look into doing reguarly syncs of the emails over IMAP back to my storage where they'd be backed up. But that's not really any different to running a webmail server myself; I'd still be backing up the data to different places and media, e.g. Amazon S3 over tarsnap. http://www.tarsnap.com/ WRT RAID, it seems the mantra RAID isn't backup is becoming more common now. Cheers, Ralph. -- Next meeting: Bournemouth, Wed 2010-02-03 20:00 http://dorset.lug.org.uk/ http://www.linkedin.com/groups?gid=2645413 Chat: http://www.mibbit.com/?server=irc.blitzed.orgchannel=%23dorset List info: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/dorset
Re: [Dorset] Cloud Computing - Stallman's take
On 05/02/10 10:56, Ralph Corderoy wrote: Hi Terry, Who can swear that Google or Amazon might not have a similar catastrophe as the years go by? I don't see a problem with web apps as long as the user's aware that they need their own copy of the data in a usable format, and that the site may fold tomorrow with no notice. For instance, if I used Gmail as my mail email client, then I'd look into doing reguarly syncs of the emails over IMAP back to my storage where they'd be backed up. But that's not really any different to running a webmail server myself; I'd still be backing up the data to different places and media, e.g. Amazon S3 over tarsnap. http://www.tarsnap.com/ WRT RAID, it seems the mantra RAID isn't backup is becoming more common now. Cheers, Ralph. We live in the real world and nothing is generally free as companies need to make money. So if you use any companies service, just try to ensure you don't lock your self in. Sometimes you don't have a choice or the alternative is too expensive. It is all common sense, so I use Google because they offer superb web tools for free and it runs on Linux. I accept they use my data/usage to make money in return for a free service. Stallman is increasingly behind the times and lives in a idealists world. Like Communism, sounds great but the actual reality doesn't work. That is why Linux is so successful as Linus Torvalds lives in the real world. If you use Thunderbird email client and IMAP, just ensure you have the synchronising setting on so your messages are stored locally. To check :- Edit/Account Settings (Tools/Account Settings for Windows version) For each IMAP email you have set up check the Synchronization Storage/Message Synchronizing is ticked. Backing up you home directory will ensure all your emails are backed up too. Moving to another email account is a simple drag and drop all you emails from one account to another (or select copy for backups). Thunderbird has the ability to export you emails in most formats to allow migration. Just install the ImportExportTools (Mboximport enhanced) add-on. Local server RAID is not backup, at best is just protects against disk failure. Someone hacking in to your server will have all the damage replicated! However, what is it good for is being able to keep disk backups when RAID1 mirroring is used, especially hot swappable disks. It needs user intervention and a regular swap overs. Any problems, you can have the whole server up and running very quickly. The combination of this and file backups give the most flexibility. -- -- Discover Linux - Open Source Solutions to Business and Schools http://discoverlinux.co.uk -- -- Next meeting: Bournemouth, Wed 2010-02-03 20:00 http://dorset.lug.org.uk/ http://www.linkedin.com/groups?gid=2645413 Chat: http://www.mibbit.com/?server=irc.blitzed.orgchannel=%23dorset List info: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/dorset
Re: [Dorset] Cloud Computing - Stallman's take
On Tuesday 02 Feb 2010, Peter Merchant wrote: I'm Interested in your take. Is he spouting nonsense again? http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2008/sep/29/cloud.computing.richard.st allman RMS has been accused of spouting nonsense ever since the first draft of the GPL. I will acknowledge that he 'has a way with him' that tends to generate hostility towards his point of view. However, he has been proved right more often than he has been proved wrong, so I always think hard when he makes a pronouncement. Personally, I've been somewhat concerned about cloud computing ever since the idea was first mooted. On the one hand you've got convenient and flexible storage. On the other: 1. You've got to use software running on someone else's computer over which you have no control whether it's open source or not. 2. There is the potential to lose your data, either legally (all your bases are belong to us) or in reality, as with the recent loss of data by Sidekick (http://www.intomobile.com/2009/10/12/t-mobile-sidekick-user-data-lost-in- microsoft-server-crash.html). Admittedly the data loss case was by a company owned by Microsoft (Need I say more?). The cause was reported by some sources to be because MS were monkeying around with the server code (ie trying to replace it with their own buggy crap) and by others that they simply had no backup (the mind boggles). Who can swear that Google or Amazon might not have a similar catastrophe as the years go by? -- Terry Coles 64 bit computing with Kubuntu Linux -- Next meeting: Bournemouth, Wed 2010-02-03 20:00 http://dorset.lug.org.uk/ http://www.linkedin.com/groups?gid=2645413 Chat: http://www.mibbit.com/?server=irc.blitzed.orgchannel=%23dorset List info: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/dorset
Re: [Dorset] Cloud Computing - Stallman's take
On Wednesday 03 Feb 2010, Dan Dart wrote: But remember the AGPL is to fix the cloud loophole. That might fix the software problem, assuming that the provider takes any notice of your bug reports and patches, but it won't fix the potential for data loss. -- Terry Coles 64 bit computing with Kubuntu Linux -- Next meeting: Bournemouth, Wed 2010-02-03 20:00 http://dorset.lug.org.uk/ http://www.linkedin.com/groups?gid=2645413 Chat: http://www.mibbit.com/?server=irc.blitzed.orgchannel=%23dorset List info: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/dorset
Re: [Dorset] Cloud Computing - Stallman's take
I don't suppose assuring the users they have RAID arrays will help? Thought not. Yes, if anything can't afford to be lost it should be backed up 5 times. Once on CD, once on RAID, once on USB, once in the cloud, once at your friend's house 8 miles down the road, And probably more so. On 3 February 2010 17:24, Terry Coles d-...@hadrian-way.co.uk wrote: On Wednesday 03 Feb 2010, Dan Dart wrote: But remember the AGPL is to fix the cloud loophole. That might fix the software problem, assuming that the provider takes any notice of your bug reports and patches, but it won't fix the potential for data loss. -- Terry Coles 64 bit computing with Kubuntu Linux -- Next meeting: Bournemouth, Wed 2010-02-03 20:00 http://dorset.lug.org.uk/ http://www.linkedin.com/groups?gid=2645413 Chat: http://www.mibbit.com/?server=irc.blitzed.orgchannel=%23dorset List info: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/dorset -- Dan Dart _ Need a website? Want some music tailored to you? Visit http://www.dandart.co.uk -- Next meeting: Bournemouth, Wed 2010-02-03 20:00 http://dorset.lug.org.uk/ http://www.linkedin.com/groups?gid=2645413 Chat: http://www.mibbit.com/?server=irc.blitzed.orgchannel=%23dorset List info: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/dorset
Re: [Dorset] Cloud Computing - Stallman's take
On Wednesday 03 Feb 2010, Dan Dart wrote: I don't suppose assuring the users they have RAID arrays will help? Thought not. Yes, if anything can't afford to be lost it should be backed up 5 times. Once on CD, once on RAID, once on USB, once in the cloud, once at your friend's house 8 miles down the road, And probably more so. I appreciate that you are a bit tongue in cheek with this comment, but the fact is that that the average user will do none of those things; just as most of the T-Mobile customers had no personal backups. They thought that the provider would deal with it. Also, I suspect that Sidekick *were* using RAID. The trouble is that a dumb admin or some software that goes wild can trash everything because they (it) thinks that the data being overwritten is the right data. Do you remember the big Internet outage some years ago when the DNS records were accidentally overwritten by an out-of-date backup? I accept that things *shouldn't* go wrong. The problem is that they do, even in the best maintained systems. If your data is in the cloud, then there is no point complaining if the provider loses it, because his licence will almost certainly absolve him from responsibility. On the other hand, if you are going to do as you suggest, and take your own backups, then you might as well run your own server and be responsible for the whole stack; OS, Apps and data. -- Terry Coles 64 bit computing with Kubuntu Linux -- Next meeting: Bournemouth, Wed 2010-02-03 20:00 http://dorset.lug.org.uk/ http://www.linkedin.com/groups?gid=2645413 Chat: http://www.mibbit.com/?server=irc.blitzed.orgchannel=%23dorset List info: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/dorset
Re: [Dorset] Cloud Computing - Stallman's take
True, but for businesses, they need to do that. Our Xenon server backs everything up every day along with a few more computers along to BackupPC through wi-fi which keeps everything for a year. On 3 February 2010 17:43, Terry Coles d-...@hadrian-way.co.uk wrote: On Wednesday 03 Feb 2010, Dan Dart wrote: I don't suppose assuring the users they have RAID arrays will help? Thought not. Yes, if anything can't afford to be lost it should be backed up 5 times. Once on CD, once on RAID, once on USB, once in the cloud, once at your friend's house 8 miles down the road, And probably more so. I appreciate that you are a bit tongue in cheek with this comment, but the fact is that that the average user will do none of those things; just as most of the T-Mobile customers had no personal backups. They thought that the provider would deal with it. Also, I suspect that Sidekick *were* using RAID. The trouble is that a dumb admin or some software that goes wild can trash everything because they (it) thinks that the data being overwritten is the right data. Do you remember the big Internet outage some years ago when the DNS records were accidentally overwritten by an out-of-date backup? I accept that things *shouldn't* go wrong. The problem is that they do, even in the best maintained systems. If your data is in the cloud, then there is no point complaining if the provider loses it, because his licence will almost certainly absolve him from responsibility. On the other hand, if you are going to do as you suggest, and take your own backups, then you might as well run your own server and be responsible for the whole stack; OS, Apps and data. -- Terry Coles 64 bit computing with Kubuntu Linux -- Next meeting: Bournemouth, Wed 2010-02-03 20:00 http://dorset.lug.org.uk/ http://www.linkedin.com/groups?gid=2645413 Chat: http://www.mibbit.com/?server=irc.blitzed.orgchannel=%23dorset List info: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/dorset -- Dan Dart _ Need a website? Want some music tailored to you? Visit http://www.dandart.co.uk -- Next meeting: Bournemouth, Wed 2010-02-03 20:00 http://dorset.lug.org.uk/ http://www.linkedin.com/groups?gid=2645413 Chat: http://www.mibbit.com/?server=irc.blitzed.orgchannel=%23dorset List info: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/dorset
Re: [Dorset] Cloud Computing - Stallman's take
On 2 February 2010 21:18, Peter Merchant mercha...@onetel.com wrote: I'm Interested in your take. Is he spouting nonsense again? http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2008/sep/29/cloud.computing.richard.stallman I did think that It's just as bad as using a proprietary program was a little extreme. Being as the service is 'free' and provides open APIs. But you sort of expect that from RMS. And he is not the first to caution about potential lock-in, or lock-out, if/when the TCs change. Meanwhile, I find GoogleDocs a handy facility just so I can work on refer to the same stuff from different places. -- Next meeting: Bournemouth, Wed 2010-02-03 20:00 http://dorset.lug.org.uk/ http://www.linkedin.com/groups?gid=2645413 Chat: http://www.mibbit.com/?server=irc.blitzed.orgchannel=%23dorset List info: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/dorset
Re: [Dorset] Cloud Computing - Stallman's take
On Tue, 02 Feb 2010 22:25:03 -, Victor Churchill victorchurch...@gmail.com wrote: Being as the service is 'free' I don't think cost has ever been his problem. I can see his point, your not locking yourself into 'their' technology but your also giving them your data. At least opening your business accounts in MS Excel your not handing your accounts to MS. The open API allows you better access to your data - but there is no way to guarantee your data is deleted or any real way to protect it - using say google docs. And yeah - I use google docs (my work does) and most of my emails are run through gmail. -- Using Opera M2: http://www.opera.com/mail/ -- Next meeting: Bournemouth, Wed 2010-02-03 20:00 http://dorset.lug.org.uk/ http://www.linkedin.com/groups?gid=2645413 Chat: http://www.mibbit.com/?server=irc.blitzed.orgchannel=%23dorset List info: https://mailman.lug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/dorset
