Re: [Dovecot] Folder Aliases - Revisited Yet Again Four Years Later
On 8/13/2010 6:07 AM, Timo Sirainen wrote: On Thu, 2010-08-12 at 17:04 -0700, Daniel L. Miller wrote: If we can't get clients to agree on a standard set of folders (probably reasonably safe assumption) [...] I'm kind of annoyed with listescape though. Hopefully for v2.1 I can figure out some API changes to make it much easier to modify mailbox names, and I guess also make such aliasing plugin much easier to implement. Did you happen to look into this in your spare time? -- Daniel
Re: [Dovecot] Folder Aliases - Revisited Yet Again Four Years Later
On 11.4.2012, at 8.06, Daniel L. Miller wrote: On 8/13/2010 6:07 AM, Timo Sirainen wrote: On Thu, 2010-08-12 at 17:04 -0700, Daniel L. Miller wrote: If we can't get clients to agree on a standard set of folders (probably reasonably safe assumption) [...] I'm kind of annoyed with listescape though. Hopefully for v2.1 I can figure out some API changes to make it much easier to modify mailbox names, and I guess also make such aliasing plugin much easier to implement. Did you happen to look into this in your spare time? Yes, this is much easier with v2.1 I think. The new listescape plugin is just a tiny wrapper that will probably just be replaced by a setting some day in future. I haven't actually tried to write such alias plugin though.
Re: [Dovecot] Folder Aliases - Revisited Yet Again Four Years Later
On 11.4.2012, at 8.12, Timo Sirainen wrote: Yes, this is much easier with v2.1 I think. The new listescape plugin is just a tiny wrapper that will probably just be replaced by a setting some day in future. I haven't actually tried to write such alias plugin though. Here: http://dovecot.org/patches/2.1/mailbox-alias-plugin.c But as it is, it doesn't really work in a useful way, since e.g.: x create real x OK Create completed. x list real x OK List completed. x list alias * LIST (\HasNoChildren) / alias x OK List completed. x create real x NO [ALREADYEXISTS] Mailbox already exists x status real (messages) * STATUS real (MESSAGES 0) x OK Status completed. Perhaps a more useful feature would be if LIST showed both alias and real? That would need a bit more code.
Re: [Dovecot] Folder Aliases - Revisited Yet Again
On Thu, 2010-08-12 at 17:04 -0700, Daniel L. Miller wrote: If we can't get clients to agree on a standard set of folders (probably reasonably safe assumption) Actually that assumption might go away :) Google implemented XLIST extension for GMail that flags the special mailboxes. iPhone at least supports that, possibly some others too. Now morg group is trying to get that standardized, and Google has promised to implement it also: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-morg-list-specialuse-02 and if protocol implementations of variations of *LIST* are too far in the future...what about having alternative folder names presented based on login name - maybe by an extension? So where my usual login might be u...@domain.com, and that would continue to be supported as the default login, I could now have u...@domain.com+thunderbird, u...@domain.com+mobile, etc.? This part can already be done with some passdbs and userdbs. You just need to have the userdb return some client=thunderbird/mobile/etc extra field. And each of those extensions would then have a system-wide map defining folder name relationships, like Sent=Sent Items. Does this seem doable? This is more troublesome.. You could probably hack something horrible by having each client use a different maildir and use symlinks. Or I guess you could also create listescape-like plugin that changes some mailbox names. Hmm. Yeah, that might work. I'm kind of annoyed with listescape though. Hopefully for v2.1 I can figure out some API changes to make it much easier to modify mailbox names, and I guess also make such aliasing plugin much easier to implement.
[Dovecot] Folder Aliases - Revisited Yet Again
I just did a search through my archives - seems this topic has been requested a few times since my posting two years ago. I asked about a specific implementation - which Mr. Sirainen never commented on. He was probably focused on something more important at the time - like a paying job. So I'll ask again... Calling Timo! If we can't get clients to agree on a standard set of folders (probably reasonably safe assumption) and if protocol implementations of variations of *LIST* are too far in the future...what about having alternative folder names presented based on login name - maybe by an extension? So where my usual login might be u...@domain.com, and that would continue to be supported as the default login, I could now have u...@domain.com+thunderbird, u...@domain.com+mobile, etc.? And each of those extensions would then have a system-wide map defining folder name relationships, like Sent=Sent Items. Does this seem doable? -- Daniel
Re: [Dovecot] Folder aliases
Daniel L. Miller wrote: It would also be nice to show a different set of folders based on the client - or if that's not possible (if the client doesn't identify itself as part of the login sequence) then somehow via login name - maybe by an extension? So where my usual login might be [EMAIL PROTECTED], and that would continue to be supported as the default login, I could now have [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], etc.? Different clients can normally have different sets of folder subscriptions, would that not do what you want? - Christian
Re: [Dovecot] Folder aliases
Steffen Kaiser wrote: On Thu, 13 Nov 2008, Christian Lange wrote: Different clients can normally have different sets of folder subscriptions, would that not do what you want? If you use different devices, e.g. a mobile phone or PDA and Outlook or Thunderbird, you get in troubles, because both may have a very specific view on the folders on IMAP, but the user wants to have all sent mails in one folder, not to mention all deleted mail. This goes on, if you want to do server-side stuff, e.g. clean the trash-folder now and then etc. Even the trash folder is _not_ fixed by standard. Elder versions of Mozilla and Outlook used localized names for their folders, so even the native language effected the names. The alias-feature alone will not overcome the problems, because the admin (or user) still needs to configure the aliases for a specific set of mail clients. I am aware of that, but I don't see how that is related to Daniel's second suggestion to show a different set of folders to different clients based on client ID or different login names if that is not possible. - Christian
Re: [Dovecot] Folder aliases
Charles Marcus dovecot@dovecot.org wrote on 13 Nov 2008 6:28: Maybe a better way would be to use namespaces? Have an Outlook specific namespace (since it and OE are apparently the buggiest clients in this regard)... then you'd just need to: 1. Have a way to define which folder to use in the namespace, and 2. make sure all of your Outlook clients use the proper namespace. I *certainly* don't want to be forced to use 'sent-mail' in my Tbird... May be Outlook is buggy, but your mentioned Thunderbird has it's own issue: When I want to use german names for a user I setup his mail account with a folder named Papierkorb as trash folder (german translation). This can be used with many email clients without problems. But a german Thunderbird wants to create a new folder Trash and displays it as Papierkorb. So what is the result? In Thunderbird I have two folders named as Papierkorb where I see in other clients a folder Trash and a folder Papierkorb. (The same applies to sent, draft and templates folders.) Frank -- Frank Behrens, Osterwieck, Germany PGP-key 0x5B7C47ED on public servers available.
Re: [Dovecot] Folder aliases
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Thu, 13 Nov 2008, Christian Lange wrote: Different clients can normally have different sets of folder subscriptions, would that not do what you want? If you use different devices, e.g. a mobile phone or PDA and Outlook or Thunderbird, you get in troubles, because both may have a very specific view on the folders on IMAP, but the user wants to have all sent mails in one folder, not to mention all deleted mail. This goes on, if you want to do server-side stuff, e.g. clean the trash-folder now and then etc. Even the trash folder is _not_ fixed by standard. Elder versions of Mozilla and Outlook used localized names for their folders, so even the native language effected the names. The alias-feature alone will not overcome the problems, because the admin (or user) still needs to configure the aliases for a specific set of mail clients. Bye, - -- Steffen Kaiser -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFJG/9+VJMDrex4hCIRAo2YAKCgo8rHYe8T40eTbDt/jZDWhF8xEgCg0Leq ZiIsT4XyMmw7JDa1b8oaSp4= =Z5Fz -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Dovecot] Folder aliases
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Thu, 13 Nov 2008, Christian Lange wrote: I am aware of that, but I don't see how that is related to Daniel's second suggestion to show a different set of folders to different clients based on client ID or different login names if that is not possible. Because this is a client-based configuration. If people get one conf right, cool; but a configuration based upon brand and version of mail client sounds like crying for support calls, IMHO. Somebody suggested name spaces, well, I remember the IMAP prefix directory. Once we used UW-imap serving mails located in the normal home directory of the users. Without the prefix configured right it was just nightmare to answer the support calls like all my mail folders are gone. Well, I do understand that it would be most useful if the client would request the best view for it. Bye, - -- Steffen Kaiser -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFJHCzuVJMDrex4hCIRAph3AKC+92XZjXXByigsAMjlwRkr0u0ghwCeOddX rS/KnUGMxklG/1F2eHv/31o= =Vx79 -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Dovecot] Folder aliases
May be Outlook is buggy, but your mentioned Thunderbird has it's own issue: When I want to use german names for a user I setup his mail account with a folder named Papierkorb as trash folder (german translation). This can be used with many email clients without problems. But a german Thunderbird wants to create a new folder Trash and displays it as Papierkorb. So what is the result? In Thunderbird I have two folders named as Papierkorb where I see in other clients a folder Trash and a folder Papierkorb. (The same applies to sent, draft and templates folders.) It's 'simply' a translation issue and one of the problems with translating folder names. The same happens with roundcube, and I removed the folder translation code from the source. It's just too confusing for people when they end up with 2 folders that seem to have the same name. Cor
Re: [Dovecot] Folder aliases
On 11/13/2008 7:13 AM, Frank Behrens wrote: May be Outlook is buggy, but your mentioned Thunderbird has it's own issue: When I want to use german names for a user I setup his mail account with a folder named Papierkorb as trash folder (german translation). This can be used with many email clients without problems. But a german Thunderbird wants to create a new folder Trash and displays it as Papierkorb. So what is the result? In Thunderbird I have two folders named as Papierkorb where I see in other clients a folder Trash and a folder Papierkorb. (The same applies to sent, draft and templates folders.) Sorry to hear it, but I never claimed it was perfect. Did you open up a bug with them? Its much more likely to get fixed in TBird than if you tried to report it to Microsoft... Luckily I'm english speaking and that language does seem to get more attention... -- Best regards, Charles
Re: [Dovecot] Folder aliases
Steffen Kaiser wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Wed, 12 Nov 2008, Daniel L. Miller wrote: I don't if this has been discussed before - or already implemented - but it would be great if I could define one or more aliases for a folder. A particular example might be Sent where different (badly-written) clients might have hard-coded Sent folder locations like Sent, Sent Items, Sent Mail, Mail Delivered, etc. - and I'd love to get those consolidated. It would also be nice to show a different set of folders based on the client - or if that's not possible (if the client doesn't identify itself as part of the login sequence) then somehow via login name - maybe by an extension? So where my usual login might be [EMAIL PROTECTED], and that would continue to be supported as the default login, I could now have [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], etc.? Because the IMAP client does not identify itself, the server does not know, which alias to return to the client. I'm not convinced that the extension method you describe will be widely accepted. Widely accepted? Not sure what you meant - or I guess I didn't express myself well. In my own case, for a particular reason that seemed justified at the time, my mail user names are the complete mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] (even though I'm really only doing one domain). My intent was that whatever the user name as defined in the database used by Dovecot - could then have appended or inserted or whatever some identifier flag that Dovecot would use in selecting the folders to share with the client. So I'm asking for a Dovecot-specific modification to be made to Dovecot - followed by implementation instructions for the clients. I wasn't aware of any particular limitations on mail usernames imposed by clients - but if there are, we should certainly that into account. I definitely would like a solution for this problem as well. But if the server would return all aliases, most recent clients will at least download all headers from all of them (not knowing about that they are all equal); if the server would return just one alias, the client would assume that its folder has been deleted and redownload the sent message as soon as the folder re-appears. At a very simple level - so it's system wide, not per-user, would include a database similar to the following: Default Extension: TBird TBird: -Sent-Items, -Composing, -Posted Mobile: Sent-Items=Sent, Composing=Drafts Mutt: Posted=Sent, Writing=Drafts PMail: Flown=Sent, Droppings=Trash Now when a client connects, Dovecot parses the username. If no extension is present, Dovecot applies the filters defined as the default. Otherwise, based on the extension, perform the appropriate folder name conversion. The first line I showed goes beyond translation and would allow for specific folder hiding based on the client - perhaps if there was a dedicated-purpose folder for a particular client that there is no translation for in other clients (perhaps a special-function junk folder or something). -- Daniel
[Dovecot] Folder aliases
I don't if this has been discussed before - or already implemented - but it would be great if I could define one or more aliases for a folder. A particular example might be Sent where different (badly-written) clients might have hard-coded Sent folder locations like Sent, Sent Items, Sent Mail, Mail Delivered, etc. - and I'd love to get those consolidated. It would also be nice to show a different set of folders based on the client - or if that's not possible (if the client doesn't identify itself as part of the login sequence) then somehow via login name - maybe by an extension? So where my usual login might be [EMAIL PROTECTED], and that would continue to be supported as the default login, I could now have [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], etc.? -- Daniel
Re: [Dovecot] Folder aliases
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Wed, 12 Nov 2008, Daniel L. Miller wrote: I don't if this has been discussed before - or already implemented - but it would be great if I could define one or more aliases for a folder. A particular example might be Sent where different (badly-written) clients might have hard-coded Sent folder locations like Sent, Sent Items, Sent Mail, Mail Delivered, etc. - and I'd love to get those consolidated. It would also be nice to show a different set of folders based on the client - or if that's not possible (if the client doesn't identify itself as part of the login sequence) then somehow via login name - maybe by an extension? So where my usual login might be [EMAIL PROTECTED], and that would continue to be supported as the default login, I could now have [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], etc.? Because the IMAP client does not identify itself, the server does not know, which alias to return to the client. I'm not convinced that the extension method you describe will be widely accepted. I definitely would like a solution for this problem as well. But if the server would return all aliases, most recent clients will at least download all headers from all of them (not knowing about that they are all equal); if the server would return just one alias, the client would assume that its folder has been deleted and redownload the sent message as soon as the folder re-appears. I wonder whether the users would accept, if the sent items are located in one specified folder (say sent-mail), but the other aliases are virtual folders, which are always empty and when a message is placed there, it is placed into the main folder actually. The users (of such badly written IMAP clients, in which you cannot select the actual name of the Sent-Folder) can not use the built-in sent-folder anymore, but need to select one normal-looking folder named sent-mail explicitly. Bye, - -- Steffen Kaiser -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFJG9z5VJMDrex4hCIRApCdAJ4xoW01wkoHCdRyTqDjegtiOMxS8QCfaRu8 t5Lj6BCmXnjKXbt8YOOZo1E= =iLGu -END PGP SIGNATURE-
