Re: [Dovecot] IMAP SPECIAL-USE extension
Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2011 00:49:49 +0200 From: Timo Sirainen t...@iki.fi Subject: Re: [Dovecot] IMAP SPECIAL-USE extension I did this: http://hg.dovecot.org/dovecot-2.1/rev/9b9a206395f7 Just to add to the confusion: Pine/Alpine uses sent-mail :(
Re: [Dovecot] IMAP SPECIAL-USE extension
On 2011-12-06 5:13 PM, Timo Sirainen t...@iki.fi wrote: * Trash is used by all clients Outlook uses 'Deleted Items', not 'Trash'... -- Best regards, Charles
Re: [Dovecot] IMAP SPECIAL-USE extension
On 12/07/2011 02:28 PM Arne K. Haaje wrote: Thunderbird also use a Templates folder. Yes, I also noticed that. But http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6154#section-2 doesn't mention a mailbox for templates. Regards, Pascal -- The trapper recommends today: face1e55.1134...@localdomain.org
Re: [Dovecot] IMAP SPECIAL-USE extension
On 2011-12-07 8:55 AM, Pascal Volk user+dove...@localhost.localdomain.org wrote: On 12/07/2011 02:28 PM Arne K. Haaje wrote: Thunderbird also use a Templates folder. Yes, I also noticed that. But http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6154#section-2 doesn't mention a mailbox for templates. Nevertheless, it is very handy functionality... it isn't just a folder. -- Best regards, Charles
Re: [Dovecot] IMAP SPECIAL-USE extension
On 12/06/2011 03:13 PM, Timo Sirainen wrote:
On Fri, 2011-12-02 at 17:12 +0200, Timo Sirainen wrote:
The mailbox names require a namespace prefix, so if you use e.g. INBOX.
prefix you'll need to use:
I changed these so that they are inside namespace {} section and don't
require namespace prefix in the name. That way I can include common
mailbox definitions in example-config and still allow the namespace
prefix to be easily changed.
I'm anyway now wondering what the defaults should be? Could someone
check what these defaults are for Outlook and any other clients you
have:
* Drafts is used by all clients
* Trash is used by all clients
* Junk is used by all clients? Or is Spam used by some?
* Sent is used by Thunderbird, Evolution
* Sent Messages is used by Apple Mail
So I'm mainly wondering about Sent vs. Sent Messages.
Outlook 2010 lets you select a mailbox for Trash and Sent (version 2007
only lets you select a mailbox for Sent messages).
Outlook default names for Trash is Deleted Items (as someone pointed
out) and for junk is Junk E-mail.
Willie
Re: [Dovecot] IMAP SPECIAL-USE extension
On 7.12.2011, at 17.45, Willie Gillespie wrote: Outlook 2010 lets you select a mailbox for Trash and Sent (version 2007 only lets you select a mailbox for Sent messages). Outlook default names for Trash is Deleted Items (as someone pointed out) and for junk is Junk E-mail. And the default name for Sent is Sent Items? Wonder if I should add those also to the example config..
Re: [Dovecot] IMAP SPECIAL-USE extension
On 12/07/2011 08:56 AM, Timo Sirainen wrote: On 7.12.2011, at 17.45, Willie Gillespie wrote: Outlook 2010 lets you select a mailbox for Trash and Sent (version 2007 only lets you select a mailbox for Sent messages). Outlook default names for Trash is Deleted Items (as someone pointed out) and for junk is Junk E-mail. And the default name for Sent is Sent Items? Yes
Re: [Dovecot] IMAP SPECIAL-USE extension
On 2011-12-02 22:22, dovecot-requ...@dovecot.org wrote:
It's implemented now in dovecot-2.1 hg. It also deprecates autocreate
plugin (but it still works the old way). The idea is that you can now
do e.g.:
mailbox Trash {
auto = no
special_use = \Trash
}
...
This is great Timo.
But for solving the localization problem for special-use folders, it's
only half the way.
Are there any plans to support RFC5464 SETMETADATA, so individual users
can name their \Trash folder Skraldspand in danish or what ever they
prefer?
/Peter
Re: [Dovecot] IMAP SPECIAL-USE extension
Am 06.12.2011 10:39, schrieb Peter Mogensen:
On 2011-12-02 22:22, dovecot-requ...@dovecot.org wrote:
It's implemented now in dovecot-2.1 hg. It also deprecates autocreate
plugin (but it still works the old way). The idea is that you can now
do e.g.:
mailbox Trash {
auto = no
special_use = \Trash
}
...
This is great Timo.
But for solving the localization problem for special-use folders, it's
only half the way.
Are there any plans to support RFC5464 SETMETADATA, so individual
users can name their \Trash folder Skraldspand in danish or what
ever they prefer?
I believe setting the name should be a mapping that takes place in the MUA.
p@
/Peter
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Re: [Dovecot] IMAP SPECIAL-USE extension
On 06.12.2011 11:29, Patrick Ben Koetter wrote: Are there any plans to support RFC5464 SETMETADATA, so individual users can name their \Trash folder Skraldspand in danish or what ever they prefer? Now I see in the hg that Timo doesn't implemented this nor CREATE-SPECIAL-USE. So, it's not so nice as I thought ;) There is metadata plugin. Should it be extended to support this? I believe setting the name should be a mapping that takes place in the MUA. We have RFC6154 for this, don't try to be smarter. -- Aleksander 'A.L.E.C' Machniak LAN Management System Developer [http://lms.org.pl] Roundcube Webmail Developer [http://roundcube.net] --- PGP: 19359DC1 @@ GG: 2275252 @@ WWW: http://alec.pl
Re: [Dovecot] IMAP SPECIAL-USE extension
* A.L.E.C a...@alec.pl: On 06.12.2011 11:29, Patrick Ben Koetter wrote: Are there any plans to support RFC5464 SETMETADATA, so individual users can name their \Trash folder Skraldspand in danish or what ever they prefer? Now I see in the hg that Timo doesn't implemented this nor CREATE-SPECIAL-USE. So, it's not so nice as I thought ;) There is metadata plugin. Should it be extended to support this? I believe setting the name should be a mapping that takes place in the MUA. We have RFC6154 for this, don't try to be smarter. From my understanding RFC 6154 serves to flag some IMAP mailboxes in order to indicate they should be used for special use e.g. as trash folder etc. I fail to see how RFC 6154 would help displaying localized mailbox names. Please point out. p@rick -- state of mind () Digitale Kommunikation http://www.state-of-mind.de Franziskanerstraße 15 Telefon +49 89 3090 4664 81669 München Telefax +49 89 3090 4666 Amtsgericht MünchenPartnerschaftsregister PR 563
Re: [Dovecot] IMAP SPECIAL-USE extension
On 06.12.2011 13:43, Patrick Ben Koetter wrote: From my understanding RFC 6154 serves to flag some IMAP mailboxes in order to indicate they should be used for special use e.g. as trash folder etc. I fail to see how RFC 6154 would help displaying localized mailbox names. Ok. It will not help for existing folders, but will allow creation of special-use folders with any name. -- Aleksander 'A.L.E.C' Machniak LAN Management System Developer [http://lms.org.pl] Roundcube Webmail Developer [http://roundcube.net] --- PGP: 19359DC1 @@ GG: 2275252 @@ WWW: http://alec.pl
Re: [Dovecot] IMAP SPECIAL-USE extension
* A.L.E.C a...@alec.pl: On 06.12.2011 13:43, Patrick Ben Koetter wrote: From my understanding RFC 6154 serves to flag some IMAP mailboxes in order to indicate they should be used for special use e.g. as trash folder etc. I fail to see how RFC 6154 would help displaying localized mailbox names. Ok. It will not help for existing folders, but will allow creation of special-use folders with any name. Yes. And on top of that a MUA should detect these SPECIAL-USE folders and automagically map its special folders (trash, archive, sent, drafts, etc.) to the servers SPECIAL-USE mailboxes. This should take place transparently and the special folders should carry localized mailbox names e.g. Sent or Gesendet or ... At least that was my motivation to initiate that RFC about two years ago and getting closer to that goal was the reason to sponsor this feature in Dovecot 2.1. p@rick -- state of mind () Digitale Kommunikation http://www.state-of-mind.de Franziskanerstraße 15 Telefon +49 89 3090 4664 81669 München Telefax +49 89 3090 4666 Amtsgericht MünchenPartnerschaftsregister PR 563
Re: [Dovecot] IMAP SPECIAL-USE extension
Yep, I only meant it in the crudest of forms. I'm sure defining the correct syntax will be the hard part. Quoting Stephan Bosch step...@rename-it.nl: Op 6-12-2011 16:00, Patrick Domack schreef: Guess the next nice step would be to get sieve scripts to be able to use the aliased special use folders. So you can just say, fileinto \Spam; Hmm, yeah. This will require some standardization efforts though. Your example is a bit problematic: - First, syntax-wise, the argument should be enclosed in double quotes; the grammar of the Sieve language is a bit sacred. :) - From what I've read, those SPECIAL-USE flags are not guaranteed to be unique, so the delivery may become ambiguous. So, it is not really an alias. - Making the bare fileinto command accept a SPECIAL-USE flag as an alternative to a regular folder name may be unwise (potentially causing naming conflicts, albeit unlikely). Some sort of :special_use tag would be in order. The ability to query which folder(s) are used for special purposes could be an alternative, although that is not ideal either. I am not sure how to approach this right now. Regards, Stephan.
Re: [Dovecot] IMAP SPECIAL-USE extension
On Fri, 2011-12-02 at 17:12 +0200, Timo Sirainen wrote:
The mailbox names require a namespace prefix, so if you use e.g. INBOX.
prefix you'll need to use:
I changed these so that they are inside namespace {} section and don't
require namespace prefix in the name. That way I can include common
mailbox definitions in example-config and still allow the namespace
prefix to be easily changed.
I'm anyway now wondering what the defaults should be? Could someone
check what these defaults are for Outlook and any other clients you
have:
* Drafts is used by all clients
* Trash is used by all clients
* Junk is used by all clients? Or is Spam used by some?
* Sent is used by Thunderbird, Evolution
* Sent Messages is used by Apple Mail
So I'm mainly wondering about Sent vs. Sent Messages.
Re: [Dovecot] IMAP SPECIAL-USE extension
* Timo Sirainen dovecot@dovecot.org:
On Fri, 2011-12-02 at 17:12 +0200, Timo Sirainen wrote:
The mailbox names require a namespace prefix, so if you use e.g. INBOX.
prefix you'll need to use:
I changed these so that they are inside namespace {} section and don't
require namespace prefix in the name. That way I can include common
mailbox definitions in example-config and still allow the namespace
prefix to be easily changed.
I'm anyway now wondering what the defaults should be? Could someone
check what these defaults are for Outlook and any other clients you
have:
* Drafts is used by all clients
* Trash is used by all clients
* Junk is used by all clients? Or is Spam used by some?
* Sent is used by Thunderbird, Evolution
* Sent Messages is used by Apple Mail
So I'm mainly wondering about Sent vs. Sent Messages.
Are you looking for US-English mailbox names only?
p@rick
--
state of mind ()
http://www.state-of-mind.de
Franziskanerstraße 15 Telefon +49 89 3090 4664
81669 München Telefax +49 89 3090 4666
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Re: [Dovecot] IMAP SPECIAL-USE extension
Quoting Patrick Ben Koetter p...@state-of-mind.de: * A.L.E.C a...@alec.pl: On 06.12.2011 13:43, Patrick Ben Koetter wrote: From my understanding RFC 6154 serves to flag some IMAP mailboxes in order to indicate they should be used for special use e.g. as trash folder etc. I fail to see how RFC 6154 would help displaying localized mailbox names. Ok. It will not help for existing folders, but will allow creation of special-use folders with any name. Yes. And on top of that a MUA should detect these SPECIAL-USE folders and automagically map its special folders (trash, archive, sent, drafts, etc.) to the servers SPECIAL-USE mailboxes. This should take place transparently and the special folders should carry localized mailbox names e.g. Sent or Gesendet or ... Except the localization conversions should be done on the MUA level, not the mailstore level (see, e.g., INBOX). As Timo noted in another message in this thread, for the most part there has been a informal standardization of special mailbox names to their English equivalents. There is really no reason to move away from this standardization, especially for MUAs that do not yet support RFC 6154 but may support a form auto-detection of common special mailbox names. michael
Re: [Dovecot] IMAP SPECIAL-USE extension
* Michael M Slusarz slus...@curecanti.org: Quoting Patrick Ben Koetter p...@state-of-mind.de: * A.L.E.C a...@alec.pl: On 06.12.2011 13:43, Patrick Ben Koetter wrote: From my understanding RFC 6154 serves to flag some IMAP mailboxes in order to indicate they should be used for special use e.g. as trash folder etc. I fail to see how RFC 6154 would help displaying localized mailbox names. Ok. It will not help for existing folders, but will allow creation of special-use folders with any name. Yes. And on top of that a MUA should detect these SPECIAL-USE folders and automagically map its special folders (trash, archive, sent, drafts, etc.) to the servers SPECIAL-USE mailboxes. This should take place transparently and the special folders should carry localized mailbox names e.g. Sent or Gesendet or ... Except the localization conversions should be done on the MUA level, not the mailstore level (see, e.g., INBOX). I believe that is exactly what I said in my lines above. As Timo noted in another message in this thread, for the most part there has been a informal standardization of special mailbox names to their English equivalents. There is really no reason to move away from this standardization, especially for MUAs that do not yet Where in my posting did I say I want to move away from that standard? support RFC 6154 but may support a form auto-detection of common special mailbox names. p@rick -- state of mind () http://www.state-of-mind.de Franziskanerstraße 15 Telefon +49 89 3090 4664 81669 München Telefax +49 89 3090 4666 Amtsgericht MünchenPartnerschaftsregister PR 563
Re: [Dovecot] IMAP SPECIAL-USE extension
On Tue, 2011-12-06 at 23:26 +0100, Patrick Ben Koetter wrote:
I'm anyway now wondering what the defaults should be? Could someone
check what these defaults are for Outlook and any other clients you
have:
* Drafts is used by all clients
* Trash is used by all clients
* Junk is used by all clients? Or is Spam used by some?
* Sent is used by Thunderbird, Evolution
* Sent Messages is used by Apple Mail
So I'm mainly wondering about Sent vs. Sent Messages.
Are you looking for US-English mailbox names only?
Yeah, just some defaults that most people could use without changes.
Although maybe if all of them were set with autocreate=no there could be
alternatives added. Like:
mailbox Sent {
special_use = \Sent
}
mailbox Sent Messages {
special_use = \Sent
}
This way whichever mailbox the first client creates would be used as
\Sent. Although if different clients create both of them there would
then be two \Sent mailboxes. But the user would probably delete one of
them and all would be good again.
Re: [Dovecot] IMAP SPECIAL-USE extension
On 6 December 2011 17:48, Michael M Slusarz slus...@curecanti.org wrote: Quoting Timo Sirainen t...@iki.fi: On Tue, 2011-12-06 at 23:26 +0100, Patrick Ben Koetter wrote: I'm anyway now wondering what the defaults should be? Could someone check what these defaults are for Outlook and any other clients you have: * Drafts is used by all clients * Trash is used by all clients * Junk is used by all clients? Or is Spam used by some? 'Spam' is also used. This one is probably a bit more site-specific. * Sent is used by Thunderbird, Evolution * Sent Messages is used by Apple Mail So I'm mainly wondering about Sent vs. Sent Messages. IIRC, at least some versions of Exchange use(d) Sent Items. Certainly mine does, although I couldn't tell you which version. But then I've never seen an Exchange server that doesn't use that. Simon
Re: [Dovecot] IMAP SPECIAL-USE extension
On Tue, 2011-12-06 at 18:02 -0500, Simon Brereton wrote: * Sent is used by Thunderbird, Evolution * Sent Messages is used by Apple Mail So I'm mainly wondering about Sent vs. Sent Messages. IIRC, at least some versions of Exchange use(d) Sent Items. Certainly mine does, although I couldn't tell you which version. But then I've never seen an Exchange server that doesn't use that. Exchange doesn't matter, but Outlook does. Does Outlook with IMAP also use Sent Items by default?
Re: [Dovecot] IMAP SPECIAL-USE extension
On 6 December 2011 18:14, Timo Sirainen t...@iki.fi wrote: On Tue, 2011-12-06 at 18:02 -0500, Simon Brereton wrote: * Sent is used by Thunderbird, Evolution * Sent Messages is used by Apple Mail So I'm mainly wondering about Sent vs. Sent Messages. IIRC, at least some versions of Exchange use(d) Sent Items. Certainly mine does, although I couldn't tell you which version. But then I've never seen an Exchange server that doesn't use that. Exchange doesn't matter, but Outlook does. Does Outlook with IMAP also use Sent Items by default? It would appear to. But then I have a weird set-up, so may be it doesn't. On the Outlook I use at Work with Gmail a Sent Items is present. At home, with dovecot, it is not. Simon
Re: [Dovecot] IMAP SPECIAL-USE extension
Am 06.12.2011 23:48, schrieb Michael M Slusarz: Quoting Timo Sirainen t...@iki.fi: On Tue, 2011-12-06 at 23:26 +0100, Patrick Ben Koetter wrote: I'm anyway now wondering what the defaults should be? Could someone check what these defaults are for Outlook and any other clients you have: * Drafts is used by all clients * Trash is used by all clients * Junk is used by all clients? Or is Spam used by some? 'Spam' is also used. This one is probably a bit more site-specific. * Sent is used by Thunderbird, Evolution * Sent Messages is used by Apple Mail So I'm mainly wondering about Sent vs. Sent Messages. IIRC, at least some versions of Exchange use(d) Sent Items. at last , at now there is no way at outlook 2010 to configure default imap junk folder ( only with reg patches, or filters ) cause this folder is special used by some antispam detection internal outlook,i guess, hope this may change by MS someday This way whichever mailbox the first client creates would be used as \Sent. Although if different clients create both of them there would then be two \Sent mailboxes. But the user would probably delete one of them and all would be good again. This will continue to be an issue until more clients support the RFC. michael -- Best Regards MfG Robert Schetterer Germany/Munich/Bavaria
Re: [Dovecot] IMAP SPECIAL-USE extension
On 2011-12-02 16:12, Timo Sirainen wrote:
It's implemented now in dovecot-2.1 hg. It also deprecates autocreate plugin
(but it still works the old way). The idea is that you can now do e.g.:
mailbox Spam {
auto = create # autocreate, but don't autosubscribe
special_use = \Junk
This looks very nice. Thanks Timo.
--
Aleksander 'A.L.E.C' Machniak
LAN Management System Developer [http://lms.org.pl]
Roundcube Webmail Developer [http://roundcube.net]
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