Re: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Automatic Operation - Control Point Definition
I think it's pretty clear that the FCC is applying Repeater and Auxillary rules -- John D. Hays Phone: 206-801-0820 801-790-0950 Fax: 866-309-6077 Email: j...@hays.org VOIP/SIP: j...@hays.org
[DSTAR_DIGITAL] Automatic Operation - Control Point Definition
With the popularity of hotspots, cross-band repeaters and other devices, I got to thinking about the legal classification of these devices and what it means to their operation. I don't really want to start a 400 message discussion, but to allow each of you to contemplate what you believe to be in accordance to the law where you live. I know for a fact that this can be debated until, well, forever, let's not do it here. I'm going to express my statements from US FCC Part 97, other countries may be different. Consult your local rules and regulations for details. When is a hotspot a repeater? Is it when it operates on two different frequencies? Just what is it? From Part 97.3 (a) (39) (39) Repeater. An amateur station that simultaneously retransmits the transmission of another amateur station on a different channel or channels. Okay, different channels. But what happens if two simplex nodes are connected together? Aren't they transmitting on different channels? Does that make it a repeater? Or is it the fact that they are different stations that make them not a repeater? But then again, it also sounds a lot like an auxiliary station (7) Auxiliary station. An amateur station, other than in a message forwarding system, that is transmitting communications point-to-point within a system of cooperating amateur stations. Well, that sounds a little closer. But why wouldn't we just call it a standard ham radio station? And then that's 97.113 (f) (f) No amateur station, except an auxiliary, repeater or space station, may automatically retransmit the radio signals of other amateur stations. Whoops, that automatically retransmit becomes a problem. So what does automatic mean Which Automatic Control is defined in 97.3 (6) as (6) Automatic control. The use of devices and procedures for control of a station when it is transmitting so that compliance with the FCC Rules is achieved without the control operator being present at a control point. So it boils down to control operator at a control point. This one has been debated for many years. Does it mean that the control operator has to push the microphone? Do they have to be in the room and watch every action that occurs? Can they be 100 miles away, but always monitoring and able to send a command turn off the transmitter? But what probably defines automatic control is when a control operator is not listening and a transmission occurs. Why does it matter? A few reasons: * A repeater or auxiliary station is limited to they frequencies that they may operate at * A repeater may require coordination * A system that is not a repeater, nor auxiliary station may always have to be under positive control So think about this as you deploy things such as cross-band repeaters or access points. Are they correctly operated? Are they correctly identified? Are they on an appropriate frequency? We've already had one ruling by the FCC about D-STAR repeaters and that didn't go the way that many organizations had hoped. Let's not force another ruling. Ed WA4YIH
Re: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Automatic Operation - Control Point Definition
We've already had one ruling by the FCC about D-STAR repeaters and that didn't go the way that many organizations had hoped. Let's not force another ruling. Ed WA4YIH Hi Ed, What was that ruling, for those of us unaware please? 73 vk4tux
Re: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Automatic Operation - Control Point Definition
On 2/9/2010 11:24 AM, Woodrick, Ed wrote: With the popularity of hotspots, cross-band repeaters and other devices, I got to thinking about the legal classification of these devices and what it means to their operation. I don't really want to start a 400 message discussion, but to allow each of you to contemplate what you believe to be in accordance to the law where you live. No debate necessary. Easier to base the answer on facts. :-) ARRL's Legal Counsel (Chris Imlay) made it clear that simplex EchoLink and IRLP stations were Auxiliary Stations many years ago after consultation with various FCC folks. FCC never published a written opinion. Logically then, a D-STAR HotSpot is the same, with digital modulation instead of analog. The usual problem that comes up when discussing this is that people don't READ in these mailing lists, and someone assuredly will think you're talking about REPEATERS, miss that you're talking about the HotSpot, and freak out. We'll see if this thread triggers that. ;-) The reason this all came up heavily back then: Auxiliary Stations used to be banned in low VHF spectrum, and only allowable at 222.15 MHz and above. A rules change a number of years ago fixed that, probably because by then, there were hundreds and hundreds of illegally operating simplex EchoLink and IRLP nodes at the time. Part 97 has been changed. IRLP and EchoLink went through this what is it legally process for the U.S.rules for simplex linked stations, ten years ago... ARRL published the answer far and wide, including in the magazine. I've got the PDF somewhere... on a hard drive... somewhere... copyrighted by ARRL so I can't post it anywhere anyway... (I asked.) Other people have it posted on the web, and feel they'll go ahead and risk infringement of the Copyright. :-) Nate WY0X
Re: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Automatic Operation - Control Point Definition
On 2/9/2010 11:42 AM, Adrian wrote: We've already had one ruling by the FCC about D-STAR repeaters and that didn't go the way that many organizations had hoped. Let's not force another ruling. Ed WA4YIH Hi Ed, What was that ruling, for those of us unaware please? Adrian, He's referring to the FCC's published opinion that D-STAR repeaters are repeaters and must be operated in our repeater sub-band. Folks early on were asserting that since they're digital, they're data and could be operated lower than our repeater sub-band in our data segment. FCC didn't agree. In general, the problem only came up on immensely overpopulated areas of the country that any sane person would move away from. (GRIN! Poke, poke, Californians... LOL! Just kidding.) In other areas, we managed to find open repeater pairs and wedge D-STAR into the existing band-plans and repeater spectrum. Today, the problem is somewhat alleviating itself in *most* areas because *finally* coordinators have gotten around to clearing paper repeaters and opening up spectrum that wasn't adequately utilized in VHF. In *most* areas UHF was not a problem. 1.2 Ghz, ditto of course... plenty of spectrum there to play in. Nate WY0X
RE: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Automatic Operation - Control Point Definition
That D-STAR repeaters were indeed a repeater. There was a contingent that was trying to portray a D-STAR system as not a repeater. Because the signal is time delayed, it is a lot more like a packet node than a repeater. This would allow for a lot more frequencies to be used in the US. But the FCC ruled that if it receives on one and retransmits on another, even though there was a time delay, then it was a repeater. It might sound obvious, but when you are trying to find 2M frequencies, you'll sometimes try really hard to stretch the rules the way you want them to be. Ed WA4YIH From: dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dstar_digi...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Adrian Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 1:43 PM To: dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Automatic Operation - Control Point Definition We've already had one ruling by the FCC about D-STAR repeaters and that didn't go the way that many organizations had hoped. Let's not force another ruling. Ed WA4YIH Hi Ed, What was that ruling, for those of us unaware please? 73 vk4tux
