Re: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: The big DStar breakthrough needs to be ...
As a visually impaired user I would advocate against a touch screen based UI. These radios were designed to encode and decode digital voice but accessibility was not designed into them and a touch screen based UI would make the radios less accessible than they are currently and that's strictly speaking not much. Besides price, the most often heard complaint from other blind amateurs is that the radios are not accessible without being tied to a PC and screen reader for programming of settings other than VFO settings. So, lets not just focus on visually pleasing interfaces because there are a large number of amateurs who would be excluded by such narrowly focused design changes. Ray T. Mahorney M0WGA WA4WGA - Original Message - From: Joel Koltner zapwire-gro...@yahoo.com To: dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2008 6:13 PM Subject: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: The big DStar breakthrough needs to be ... Hi John, These are good comments and I generally agree with them. I'll add a few thoughts of my own here...
[DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: The big DStar breakthrough needs to be ...
Hi Bob, I have to seriously question whether D-STAR should ever be used for applications similar to what you've noted one can do with a mobile that is on an EVDO or GSM network or WiFi enabled. Well, people always think up interesting new applications, and while the various parameters of a D*Star network vs. EVDO/GSM network are different both physically as well as in a regulatory manner, I figure plenty of the same applications are attractive on both. Obvious examples would be texting -- SMS vs. D*Chat for instance, are used for quite similar purposes. Also, there are many GPS tracking applications used with cell phones, whereas D*Star has DPRS. Most licensing jurisdictions, including the FCC in the US, limit the use of Amateur Radio to non-commercial purposes. Yep. My interpretation is that if you connected a device (PC, whatever) to a D-STAR device (either the high speed 23 cm digital data or low speed data on other modules) that in turn had Internet connectivity ... you can use it as long as there is no commercial aspects. Yes, although exactly what constitutes commercial aspects is a hotly debated topic these days, and unfortunately not one that the FCC seems that interested in clarifying. Things I would believe are acceptable in the context of either Amateur or emergency use: - sending emails and text messages - uploading/downloadi ng images and graphics - streaming live images from a camera over the D-STAR network Sure. Things that are unacceptable: - booking an airline reservation at a web site As others have mentioned, this isn't much different than ordering a pizza example that the FCC says is OK. (Also note that the FCC says that the once-common on-air swapmeets for ham-related equipment is OK.) - sending/receiving email from your company's servers This one is a bit dicey -- probably better to not do so. - general Internet web browsing (because a lot of it has commercial content) Ah, but if you use something like Firefox and AdBlockPlus, the ads are all but gone... plus it saves bandwidth, which is a significant consideration on a 128kbps system. Certainly one should do some vetting of the web sites they intend to visit over an amateur radio link (D*Star or otherwise) to ensure that they won't be subject to large amounts of commercial content. This whole area of Internet access through D-STAR is a very precarious thing. It is very easy to abuse; it would be equally as easy for a licensing authority to ban Internet connections all together (if abused). Agreed, although personally I don't think the FCC even cares that much about amateur radio anymore. Amateur radio is (and should be) largely self-policing, and the FCC only steps in when things get completely out of control... and often not even then, as evidenced by the almost complete lack of enforcement for, say, businesses using 2m/440 HTs and their complete disinterest in helping to track down and remove the jammers who show up every year in Dayton. Lastly - how many places in the developed world would one expect to find a D-STAR repeater setup that would not have cellular service? Only a few. For instance, not many fixed locations -- even in rural areas, these days satellite Internet and DSL and cable modems (when available) are far better choices for Internet access than D*Star would be. Similarly, for those traveling on major thoroughfares, regular cell phones are a better choice. Hence, the remaining audience is people traveling rurally... off-roaders, hikers, etc. In fact, this should be the same group of folks you see using HT for voice communications, although I've noticed that many hams *like* to use ther HTs even when cell phone coverage is just ducky. :-) And taking that one step further - if there was a D-STAR system in an area (assuming some high ground QTH with some coverage) with no mobile service ... there would probably be issues with getting Internet bandwidth to such a system. Some hams use highly directional WiFi links here -- sometimes with power amplifiers, which (very conveniently) is allowed if you're a ham and are abiding to those non-commercial traffic rules. ---Joel
[DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: The big DStar breakthrough needs to be ...
Hi John, These are good comments and I generally agree with them. I'll add a few thoughts of my own here... 1) a 'glass cockpit' style of interface - an LCD that is either itself touch sensitive or is surrounded by softkeys, or both. Note that the IC-2820 already has a large, dot-matrix LCD and softkeys. I was a bit disappointed when I purchased my 2820 to see that, unfortunately, they don't make better use of it. Still, it indicates that at least someone at Icom is thinking about UI design, even if -- to date -- the execution still leaves a lot to be desired. This is against the trend of physicially smaller and smaller radios, but look at some of the current smart phones. HT's don't have to fit in a shirt pocket Also keep in mind that most mobile rigs today still have segment-style displays; it's only the higher end radios with dot-matrix LCDs. On something like an ID-800, the *size* of the display is still plenty big (for most people) -- most since it's not dot-matrix, the information available on it is quite limited. Additionally, the information you might need while setting up/programing a radio is different than that needed while just operating it, so it's reasonable to use big fonts with limited information for typical usage modes and then shift to small fonts with more information for setup/programming... where the user is presumably stopped, can get up nice and close the radio, etc. 2) a repeater/gateway database that is EASILY downloaded and updated via the internet - wifi too so you can do this in your driveway; Agreed... I've often thought the same think just for regular old 2m/440 repeaters. In fact, I suspect you could even sell a standalone widget for something like the IC-2820 that contains a repeater database, monitors the GPS feed, and then (at the touch of a button or something) can be set to re-program, say, a particular bank of memories to the 10 (or whatever) nearest repeaters geographically. Such a widget is very straightforward and reasonably inexpensive to build -- it's just your typical microcontroller plus glue logic and an SD card slot, but of course writing the software and then entering the databse itself is time consuming. There's more, but this is enough to be food for thought. I suspect the main problem here is the relatively low numbers of D*Star users vs., say, Windows Mobile users -- most of what you're looking to do here is readily done with a Windows Mobile-based smart phone, which typically have a 320x240 or 640x480 touch screen display, Bluetooth, WiFi, and GPS built in, and cost less than $500 (often half that...). So long as you stay within range of cell towers (which is nintey-something-percent of all U.S. interstates), you can run instant messaging programs, play back podcasts, surf the Internet, read RSS things, etc. -- very, very powerful. Hence, where D*Star can really shine is for those small percentage of people who want voice and data communications outside of cell service areas, and I suspect that percentage is probably well under 1% of the population. ---Joel
Re: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: The big DStar breakthrough needs to be ...
My response is in relation to U.S. regulations, other countries may have stricter or looser regulations. I don't believe D-STAR should be limited to the lowest common denominator. Each radio operator should be responsible for operating his/her station under the regulations that govern their station. The regulations lag technology, so sometimes we have to look at the intent and apply it to the new technology until it is clarified. Several of these Internet activities probably fall under the content rules that were established for packet radio. On Sun, Dec 28, 2008 at 12:55 PM, Bob McCormick W1QA ya...@w1qa.com wrote: Things that are unacceptable: - booking an airline reservation at a web site How is this different than ordering a pizza over an autopatch (which the FCC has specifically allowed)? - sending/receiving email from your company's servers This is a touchy one, but you can call your office over an autopatch to invite a co-worker to lunch, as long as you don't facilitate your business in the process. So reading email, of a non-business nature would probably be OK, you certainly couldn't email your boss to report on a project or a subordinate giving them tasks to perform. - general Internet web browsing (because a lot of it has commercial content) Again, it all depends but I think most people are more comfortable with only access to a limited number of sites. -- John - K7VE
RE: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: The big DStar breakthrough needs to be ...
John Hays K7VE replied to my recent posting: John: I neither want to hijack this thread ... or get too deep into this as there is most certainly a lot of grey (or is it gray?!) area. Probably a good discussion but one that will in the immediate term probably never reach a solid conclusion as so much is open to interpretation. In the end - it is certainly up to each licensee, control operator, etc. to interpret what regulations apply, enforce them and be held accountable. I certainly didn't want to imply that D-STAR should be limited to the universal lowest common denominator for world-wide regulations! Elaborating on this: Things that are unacceptable: - booking an airline reservation at a web site How is this different than ordering a pizza over an autopatch (which the FCC has specifically allowed)? I don't know / have not heard about the FCC specifically allowing ordering a pizza over an auto patch or similar activities. If that is the case (acceptable) ... OK ... still - as a control op I would frown on it. I would consider booking an airline ticket a business transaction and something that shouldn't be done over Amateur radio. (If the FCC regs in the US actually allow then OK - I need to get a cite so I can be up-to-date with the rules.) But maybe more importantly - that airline reservation over the Internet would probably make use of HTTPS (SSL) encryption ... and my personal opinion would be HTTPS traffic probably shouldn't be allowed (as its encrypted). What do you / others think on that one (SSL)? - sending/receiving email from your company's servers This is a touchy one, but you can call your office over an autopatch to invite a co-worker to lunch, as long as you don't facilitate your business in the process. So reading email, of a non-business nature would probably be OK, you certainly couldn't email your boss to report on a project or a subordinate giving them tasks to perform. Ayup. Agreed. And then there is the question about even sending information over the Internet (and D-STAR) in clear text. Let's say you have a POP3 account (whether work or otherwise). And you use the POP3 protocol which will send your username and password to the POP3 server in clear text. Anyone listening as the man in the middle now has your access info ... FWIW - at the $dayjob the only way to access the mail server externally is via SSL. (No IMAP or POP3, etc.) - general Internet web browsing (because a lot of it has commercial content) Again, it all depends but I think most people are more comfortable with only access to a limited number of sites. What I didn't include in my original reply ... but I was thinking: This problem: limited number of sites is much like the issues libraries and other public places that provide Internet access have. Many want to limit the reach of what sites folks can access. (Here I am thinking of blocking sites that would be considered socially unacceptable.) In any event - we have a 23cm DV + DD on one of our local D-STAR systems but the gateway is not yet connected to the Internet. Once it is ... there is less than a handful of people that have the requisite rig to use D-STAR DD. I think for the time being, in our area, the minimal interest and high entry cost for the ID-1 radio really diminishes any concerns I have about Internet access over D-STAR. Bob W1QA
