Re: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: Home repeater no longer exists on the network, what to do?
On 2/28/2010 12:47 PM, Woodrick, Ed wrote: You are correct, and that's what I was referring to . If you stay on a single repeater, call sign forwarding should be immediate, since the local software arbitrates the session. Actually, that should read single gateway. You can bounce between repeaters on a single Gateway and the one copy of D-Plus will arbitrate instead of relying on the much-too-slow national database updates. It's a useful little hack to cover up the design flaw, thanks to Robin AA4RC. And I'd have to say that using different call signs breaks call sign routing even more, because your call sign is going to the last place a radio transmitted, not the last place you transmitted. If I used suffixes for each of my radios, then people would have to try A then B then C then D then E then F then G. I know everyone will be SHOCKED to hear that I agree with Ed on something, but... *Generally* suffixes are not worth using unless you have a regular need to do callsign routing from yourself to yourself. An example might be my home rig sitting on WY0X H and all the rest of the rigs on WY0X... I can callsign route to my home rig and holler (in voice) for my wife, KC0KTI. She can answer, and ID in voice without having to mess with the radio in the slightest. (In that specific scenario, I can even leave the rig in callsign squelch, or group code squelch, and she won't hear anything until I call... all useful features of D-STAR, but heck, my cell phone to her is free, and she actually answers that... so... maybe not all that useful unless the cell is dead, the home phone is dead, and I know she's in earshot of the basement ham shack. It's a stretch to think we'll do it all that often.) Other reasons to use suffixes might be if you're constantly beaconing DPRS data from multiple radios, and trying to keep their data separate after it trickles up to the APRS server network, but how often someone would be doing that -- while not at the rig (no control operator, anyway... so why?) -- would be low... since beaconing such data on a busy repeater would be impolite. And you'd need a repeater or some other infrastructure to gateway the data over to the ARPS servers. A third example of where suffixes might be useful... if you have people calling that know your ID-1 (as mentioned here before I don't have one) and it's in the shack or something, (similar to the home radio scenario above), or maybe it's always a second radio in your mobile, and they want to call you on 1.2 GHz ONLY, and make sure they don't go out on VHF/UHF... AND... if you always use that suffix on the 1.2 GHz radio... that scenario might warrant a suffix also. (I call that last one, the 1.2 GHz secret squirrel society... Yes, there are people out there who think that way... and you can find 'em on the last-heard lists anyway, and callsign route to them from VHF/UHF on any Gateway, so it's really not a very big deal.) So... I do have a suffix or two registered for times like those, but the majority of the time I'll use the stock WY0X callsign from all rigs. KISS principal. Suffixes are worth playing with a bit so you completely understand them (if you have two rigs, it's easy to play around), but for most day-to-day traffic, you won't need them, and they'll just make it harder for someone else to find you, if they don't know what rigs you have, what bands/modules you're typically on, etc. So to re-state the executive summary: Generally, you only need suffixes for operational reasons if you have a need to call from one of your rigs to another of your rigs, or you need to track separate DPRS data simultaneously. In other words... simultaneous operation of more than one rig under your callsign. Which typically, is rare for most hams, but maybe useful once in a while. Nate WY0X
RE: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: Home repeater no longer exists on the network, what to do?
Steve, You are correct, and that's what I was referring to . If you stay on a single repeater, call sign forwarding should be immediate, since the local software arbitrates the session. And I'd have to say that using different call signs breaks call sign routing even more, because your call sign is going to the last place a radio transmitted, not the last place you transmitted. If I used suffixes for each of my radios, then people would have to try A then B then C then D then E then F then G. Ed WA4YIH From: dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dstar_digi...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of bosshardss Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 11:54 AM To: dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com Subject: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: Home repeater no longer exists on the network, what to do? Gary brings up a very good point about the time needed for the system to update call signs when moving between repeater sites using call sign routing. Updates into JA are pretty much done on an hourly basis (so it seems). The patch between G1 in JA and G2 elsewhere may predicate this. This may be inside information. The 1/2 hour thereabouts in the G2 network seems to be correct when moving between repeaters. Now the question for the guru's out there. Wasn't there an update to G2 some time back that made moves between different modules at a site update very quickly (or be handled on site without updating)? On the order of a minute or so ? This would be between modules within K2DIG (example) and not between different repeater sites. If this is true (and I am sure I will find out soon) then you may still have the function you are looking for without having to register different call signs provided you use only one repeater site. Just a thought. Thanks in advance and best luck to you Gary. steve nu5d
RE: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: Home repeater no longer exists on the network, what to do?
I couldn't agree more with you. A lot of people are fed up of all the wannabees fighting with each other, and I wasn't that interested in the history lesson either. Wrong group chaps, you could all set up your own group and go off and debate there about which one of you gurus knows more then the other. Anyway, I'm hanging on in there for the occasional DStar related titbit that does manage to filter through all the drivel. Carry on Dex M0TMX From: dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dstar_digi...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Capt Wright Sent: 27 February 2010 15:16 To: dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com Subject: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: Home repeater no longer exists on the network, what to do? Gary, I did think you were asking a simple question needing some help. But this group seems to have some who really think they are the tech guros, hi. Seems a rep of this group. Know some good D-Star Hams who have left for they are interested in the technology rather than a pillow fight, hi. At least one good thing came out was some good history of Linux and other OSs. Was very interesting. The name calling really shows some are not very educated, but know some learn how to turn on a computer and write a little code and then become experts although there seems to be some very knowledgable people here. Do wish we could stick to helping as the main goal. Good luck in your efforts. There seems to be good info here inspite the bickering. 73, ron, n9ee/r --- In dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com mailto:dstar_digital%40yahoogroups.com , Gary g...@... wrote: Too many people have sent me off list email telling me I don't know what I am doing (some were very insulting). I'm no expert, but I have read much of the documentation. Yes, you CAN use your call on all of your radios simultaneously if you don't want call sign routing to work properly (and routing updates take about 36 minutes). For routing to work correctly, you /MUST /differentiate the radios. I want to have my radios individually identifiable plain and simple. Just like I don't want my home phone, cell phone, and work phone to have the same number. I have confirmed that what I am doing is correct, and a documented way to do it. Please see the US trusts Dstar 101 presentation slides 74-77 and 28 at: http://www.k5tit.org/Public/D-Star/Presentations/D-Star%20101%20-%20Main.ppt From the ARRL Alabama Dstar(page 19): http://www.arrl-al.org/Dstar_al_advanced.pdf There are other references as well. It even appears that I am using the A for my ID-1 inappropriately: http://www.dstar.org.au/registration.htm In short, there is a flaw in the system (not a big deal,most systems have flaws). I must either wait to see if my local system ever comes back online, or get the trust to delete my information and re-register. If you disagree with how I am doing this, fine. If you believe I am in need of further education on this matter, fine. There is no reason to insult me, my intelligence, call me a No code tech idiot (check first, I'm an Extra, originally licensed almost 25 years ago in the code days with a csce for 20wpm), etc. Thank You Gary KB2BSL
RE: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: Home repeater no longer exists on the network, what to do?
You can register anywhere, does not have to be the same repeater. Just locate another place to register. 73 Ted W1GRI _ From: dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dstar_digi...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of enjoyit2day Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 10:30 To: dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com Subject: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: Home repeater no longer exists on the network, what to do? Suffixed call signs are not supported and for a very good reason. Only one licensed operator can talk on one radio at a time. There is no reason to have suffixes. If you get multiple radios you program your call sign into those radios. The call sign is for you, not the radio. This does not work like APRS. If you are having difficulty contact me directly and I will see what I can do to help.
Re: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: Home repeater no longer exists on the network, what to do?
From what I have been told YOU don't want to register on two gateways. I think it can cause problems Fran, W1FJM On Fri, Feb 26, 2010 at 11:21 AM, Ted Wrobel twro...@tacticaltech.comwrote: You can register anywhere, does not have to be the same repeater. Just locate another place to register. 73 Ted W1GRI -- *From:* dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com [mailto: dstar_digi...@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of *enjoyit2day *Sent:* Friday, February 26, 2010 10:30 *To:* dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com *Subject:* [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: Home repeater no longer exists on the network, what to do? Suffixed call signs are not supported and for a very good reason. Only one licensed operator can talk on one radio at a time. There is no reason to have suffixes. If you get multiple radios you program your call sign into those radios. The call sign is for you, not the radio. This does not work like APRS. If you are having difficulty contact me directly and I will see what I can do to help.
RE: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: Home repeater no longer exists on the network, what to do?
Ted, I am already registered. I wish to modify my existing registration to add additional terminals. I have always been under the assumption that this needs to be done from your home. I'll try another gateway and see if I can access my information. Thanks Gary KB2BSL From: dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dstar_digi...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ted Wrobel Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 11:22 AM To: dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: Home repeater no longer exists on the network, what to do? You can register anywhere, does not have to be the same repeater. Just locate another place to register. 73 Ted W1GRI
Re: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: Home repeater no longer exists on the network, what to do?
You cannot change your info via another gateway. it must be done on the gateway you registered on. Also, new people are suppose to register on the gateway closest to them within their own state Fran, W1FJM On Fri, Feb 26, 2010 at 12:14 PM, Gary g...@garyandevie.com wrote: Ted, I am already registered. I wish to modify my existing registration to add additional terminals. I have always been under the assumption that this needs to be done from your “home”. I’ll try another gateway and see if I can access my information. Thanks Gary KB2BSL *From:* dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com [mailto: dstar_digi...@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Ted Wrobel *Sent:* Friday, February 26, 2010 11:22 AM *To:* dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com *Subject:* RE: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: Home repeater no longer exists on the network, what to do? You can register anywhere, does not have to be the same repeater. Just locate another place to register. 73 Ted W1GRI
Re: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: Home repeater no longer exists on the network, what to do?
Aside from the stupidity of RF based callsign registration (it's a bad design), you do have to update your multiple terminals from the gateway that you are registered on (also a bad design). The only way to effectively solve this is to have your registration deleted, which if the K2DIG people can't do it can only be accomplished by the Trust Server team, and then reregister with another system. It further points to the responsibility that goes with operating a gateway with registration -- you can't just turn things off, you must go through the process of de-registering everyone on your gateway (after notifying them that you are doing so and giving them instructions on how to re-register). We also need the Trust Admins to be responsive to cleanup needs. REMEMBER EVERYONE INVOLVED ARE VOLUNTEERS, IT MAY TAKE A WHILE. Now to the basic question. If you are going to be operating multiple radios at the same time, they still can have the same callsign, unless you are doing something that requires callsign routing (while using them at the same time): if you are using DPLUS linking, it just doesn't matter, if they are listening to the same repeater, it just doesn't matter, if you are doing cross module repeating, it just doesn't matter, only if you need to address the radio does it matter. On Feb 26, 2010, at 9:14 AM, Gary wrote: Ted, I am already registered. I wish to modify my existing registration to add additional terminals. I have always been under the assumption that this needs to be done from your “home”. I’ll try another gateway and see if I can access my information. Thanks Gary KB2BSL John D. Hays Amateur Radio Station K7VE PO Box 1223 Edmonds, WA 98020-1223 VOIP/SIP: j...@hays.org Email: j...@hays.org
RE: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: Home repeater no longer exists on the network, what to do?
This sounds like a flaw in Dstar. Repeaters do come and go, there should be something to accommodate this. Im not saying K2DIG is gone, it just dropped of the Gateway a month ago (http://dsyncg2.dstarusers.org/index.php?gw_status=K2DIG) Im not sure this is the forum for this, but shouldnt user registration data be a bit more redundantly accessible? Gary KB2BSL From: dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dstar_digi...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Francis Miele Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 1:00 PM To: dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: Home repeater no longer exists on the network, what to do? You cannot change your info via another gateway. it must be done on the gateway you registered on. Also, new people are suppose to register on the gateway closest to them within their own state Fran, W1FJM On Fri, Feb 26, 2010 at 12:14 PM, Gary g...@garyandevie.com wrote: Ted, I am already registered. I wish to modify my existing registration to add additional terminals. I have always been under the assumption that this needs to be done from your home. Ill try another gateway and see if I can access my information. Thanks Gary KB2BSL From: dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dstar_digi...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ted Wrobel Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 11:22 AM To: dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: Home repeater no longer exists on the network, what to do? You can register anywhere, does not have to be the same repeater. Just locate another place to register. 73 Ted W1GRI
Re: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: Home repeater no longer exists on the network, what to do?
On 2/26/2010 12:21 PM, Gary wrote: I'm not sure this is the forum for this, but shouldn't user registration data be a bit more redundantly accessible? Would love to see Icom just drop the whole requirement for registration altogether in version 4 of their Gateway software if they ever create such a thing. The whole concept of registering a callsign, when the callsign can be forged by anyone else with a radio world-wide, is stupid because it's a completely broken design from the very start. Nate WY0X
RE: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: Home repeater no longer exists on the network, what to do?
John, I agree it seems like a bad design. I fully understand that everyone is a volunteer, I've waited patiently for three weeks to see if they come back up. And tried to contact them first. I do indeed wish to do call sign routing (including demonstrations to non Dstar users). I also wish to register them separately due to the closed nature of the repeaters and reflector choice (I have no problems with repeaters restricting this feature) and the amount of time it takes to update a call sign location. For example, I currently run my ID80 (KB2BSL) and ID1 (KB2BSL A) at the same time. The different ports (A,B,C) of local repeaters are connected to different reflectors. If I were to use the same call sign, each transmission would trigger an update showing me bounce between systems and ports. This has the potential to have my last heard and where I really am go out of synch very easily, and it creates unnecessary traffic and resource allocation of the servers. I believe this is why you are allowed to register up to eight terminals, so one may do things such as I wish. This has been working fine for me for about a year on two radios, and I would like to add an 880 to the mix in the same way. I know this all may sound a bit silly, but I hope people understand what I am trying to accomplish. Thanks Gary KB2BSL From: dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dstar_digi...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Hays Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 1:48 PM To: dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com Cc: trust-server-adm...@dstarusers.org Subject: Re: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: Home repeater no longer exists on the network, what to do? Aside from the stupidity of RF based callsign registration (it's a bad design), you do have to update your multiple terminals from the gateway that you are registered on (also a bad design). The only way to effectively solve this is to have your registration deleted, which if the K2DIG people can't do it can only be accomplished by the Trust Server team, and then reregister with another system. It further points to the responsibility that goes with operating a gateway with registration -- you can't just turn things off, you must go through the process of de-registering everyone on your gateway (after notifying them that you are doing so and giving them instructions on how to re-register). We also need the Trust Admins to be responsive to cleanup needs. REMEMBER EVERYONE INVOLVED ARE VOLUNTEERS, IT MAY TAKE A WHILE. Now to the basic question. If you are going to be operating multiple radios at the same time, they still can have the same callsign, unless you are doing something that requires callsign routing (while using them at the same time): if you are using DPLUS linking, it just doesn't matter, if they are listening to the same repeater, it just doesn't matter, if you are doing cross module repeating, it just doesn't matter, only if you need to address the radio does it matter. On Feb 26, 2010, at 9:14 AM, Gary wrote: Ted, I am already registered. I wish to modify my existing registration to add additional terminals. I have always been under the assumption that this needs to be done from your home. I'll try another gateway and see if I can access my information. Thanks Gary KB2BSL John D. Hays Amateur Radio Station K7VE http://k7ve.org PO Box 1223 Edmonds, WA 98020-1223 VOIP/SIP: j...@hays.org Email: j...@hays.org
Re: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: Home repeater no longer exists on the network, what to do?
Too many people have sent me off list email telling me I don't know what I am doing (some were very insulting). I'm no expert, but I have read much of the documentation. Yes, you CAN use your call on all of your radios simultaneously if you don't want call sign routing to work properly (and routing updates take about 36 minutes). For routing to work correctly, you /MUST /differentiate the radios. I want to have my radios individually identifiable plain and simple. Just like I don't want my home phone, cell phone, and work phone to have the same number. I have confirmed that what I am doing is correct, and a documented way to do it. Please see the US trusts Dstar 101 presentation slides 74-77 and 28 at: http://www.k5tit.org/Public/D-Star/Presentations/D-Star%20101%20-%20Main.ppt From the ARRL Alabama Dstar(page 19): http://www.arrl-al.org/Dstar_al_advanced.pdf There are other references as well. It even appears that I am using the A for my ID-1 inappropriately: http://www.dstar.org.au/registration.htm In short, there is a flaw in the system (not a big deal,most systems have flaws). I must either wait to see if my local system ever comes back online, or get the trust to delete my information and re-register. If you disagree with how I am doing this, fine. If you believe I am in need of further education on this matter, fine. There is no reason to insult me, my intelligence, call me a No code tech idiot (check first, I'm an Extra, originally licensed almost 25 years ago in the code days with a csce for 20wpm), etc. Thank You Gary KB2BSL
