[e-gold-list] Widgets at my Door/ was PayPal flaws

2003-03-05 Thread one2know
 
I've been reading this list a long time and see once again a thread
about the difficulties with e-gold. Seems like last time, someone
mentioned an idea of e-gold themselves becoming an escrow agent. What a
great idea! I think that would make for a (really THE) most trustworthy
agent, even for newcomers. 

I thought if I waited, someone else would bring up this idea that came
to me and I wouldn't have to figure out how to post it myself. But here
goes: 
How hard would it be to construct a time delay feature on spends? One
with several choices? I have no e-gold account so this might have to be
worked over by those more familiar with spending, etc., but my vision is
this: You go to the spend page and find several delay choices -
immediate, as is the case now and for those you know and trust; 1
hour, for when you buy a recipe for chile at $1.98 and expect it to
arrive in e-mail right away; 1 week, for when you buy a DVD from
across town and expect it to arrive in a few days; then 15 days, 30
days, 45 and 60 days to conform to whatever is agreeable between
purchaser and merchant, wherever in the world either may be. So it would
go that I want a case of widgets and find a source in a foreign land who
claims to be able to deliver within say, 20 days. I click the e-gold to
his account but, because I don't trust the complete stranger in a far
away place, I click on the 30 day delay. That should cover, comfortably,
the 20 days he said it would take to get the widgets to my door. He, the
merchant, sees the e-gold immediately on some page, with a clock ticking
down to when it will automatically finish the spend to his account. He
knows the e-gold exists, knows it is intended for him and he knows I
can't get it back without some difficulty, so he ships the widgets to
me. In 30 days the e-gold automatically transfers to his account -
everyone's happy and the spend was all done automatically, - but wait!
What if he didn't really have any widgets to ship? In that case I wait
25 days (or even 29) and, with no widgets at my door, I go to the page,
with the deal on it, and click a box that says dispute. At this time I
suppose a human from e-gold would have to get involved, for a fee now
(the delay feature on the spend should be free), and arbitrate the
dispute. It might be as simple as cranking the timer another 30 days so
the merchant can try again, or it could be that the e-gold arbitrator,
having become familiar with the shady merchant from past experience,
reverses the spend, minus a small arbitration fee, back to me. Either
way I expect this to take very little time for the arbitrator in most
cases, (none at all for honest deals) and a fee schedule could be set
up, either a flat fee or a percentage of the spend or perhaps even a
schedule that takes into account certain types of spends that are
notorious for disputes, whatever that may come to mean. I will have
taken a (now more modest) risk by ordering and paying for widgets from a
stranger in Transylvania, but I will have shown him my ability and solid
intent to pay in e-gold, and I will also have a method available to
recover most of my spend should the deal go sour, the merchant be a
fake, or whatever else. 

This is, of course, a rough idea - the $1.98 chile recipe could easily
be left out of the equation, as too small to dispute, limiting the much
greater comfort level to those using e-gold to purchase anything over,
say $10 (or 1 gram), over the web. For the smaller spends, it's that
much less critical anyway. The system could also create, automatically,
a page list of merchants who have lost at arbitration, and should be
approached with suspicion. There could be simple disputes, where an
honest merchant, unable to deliver, simply reverses the timed spend
himself back to the customer. That way, doing away with the problem of a
merchant who admits he can't deliver, but doesn't want to spend his own
e-gold to the customer as a refund, before the clock ticks down. (A
dishonest merchant might tell his customer privately, I'm sorry I can't
deliver but just wait until the e-gold timer winds down and when I get
it, I'll refund right away without having any such intent.) A merchant
only reverse or receiver only reverse button would solve that. - I'm
sorry we can't deliver but we reversed your spend and hope to serve you
better in the future. We should have more widgets in stock this Spring.
 
Of course I suppose this could become overwhelming, what with schemers
everywhere and all, but I believe it would more likely drive away all
the schemers and leave an excellent opportunity for honest buyers and
sellers all over the globe. It might go very well on e-bay for example,
and save on escrow fees for those guys. I might even push dispute just
to lock up the funds while the merchant and I work out some resolution
ourselves, thereby still taking none of an arbitrators time. Perhaps a
button, called Hold five days for possible dispute to give some time
to work things out, 

[e-gold-list] Press Release: The Gold Casino Announces Bullion Prize Draw

2003-03-05 Thread Public Relations - TheGoldCasino
[posting 2 of 2 - [EMAIL PROTECTED]


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[e-gold-list] Re: Widgets at my Door/ was PayPal flaws

2003-03-05 Thread James M. Ray
At 12:09 AM -0800 3/5/03, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

I've been reading this list a long time and see once again a thread
about the difficulties with e-gold. Seems like last time, someone
mentioned an idea of e-gold themselves becoming an escrow agent. What a
great idea! I think that would make for a (really THE) most trustworthy
agent, even for newcomers.

...

http://www.e-gold.com/unsecure/terms.htm

e-gold does very few things, in order to do them well. IMO their user
agreement would completely forbid your idea, even though I think that
escrow services (honest ones, like I think Arik's is/will-be) are a good
thing. They will cost money, as will arbitration services. A separation
of roles will not only allow market competition to lower prices  improve
the quality of services, it will also allow users to see exactly what their
disputes cost. Separation of roles also avoids nasty reputation issues
that invariably accompany disputes (there's a loser in all disputes, and
sometimes the system gets things wrong, as we all know!).

Finally, if you can revoke my spend, I simply won't be shipping! I'm
not the only eBay merchant with that attitude, and small merchants
like me can afford to take this posture. (I can't afford not-to!!) I don't
want to pay anything extra for things like fraud (or others' insecure
computers!) because it's throwing money down a black hole IMO.
JMR


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[e-gold-list] Re: Let's talk MONEY!

2003-03-05 Thread Arik Schenkler
Shalom,

   The incredibly-interesting Lucrative project, for example, is on-topic
 
  Why is Lucre project so interesting?!

 Please read http://www.philodox.com/modelpaper.html
 And if you have a bit more time: http://www.ibuc.com/pdfs/Geoecon.pdf

I understand and accept the benefits of digital bearers. (I operate a
digital bearer system).
Thanks for the links.

My questions:

There are two digital bearer systems:
1. Lucre - where the issuer do not know the coin code.
2. I$ - where the issuer knows the coin code.

Which one is better? Why?

 Schenkler - Chief Money Maker
Internet Dollar electronic money system - http://InternetDollar.com





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[e-gold-list] Re: Let's talk MONEY! (was: Re: US Diplomat resigns

2003-03-05 Thread Arik Schenkler
Jim shalom,

 Anyway, to the extent that currency is cryptography (which it isn't,
 but ok) there's a theory that an attacker should be able to know
 the source and still not break the system as long as he does not
 have the key, so a bit of that may apply. IMO!

What do you mean - know the source?

In both systems where the issuer knows/don't know the coin code, an attacker
tries to *attack* the coin code.

Thanks for your support of I$.

 Schenkler - Chief Money Maker
Internet Dollar electronic money system - http://InternetDollar.com





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[e-gold-list] Why _anonymous_ digital bearer instruments? (was: Re: Let's talk MONEY!)

2003-03-05 Thread Joris Bontje
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Wed, Mar 05, 2003 at 11:00:42AM +0200, Arik Schenkler wrote:
   Why is Lucre project so interesting?!
 
  Please read http://www.philodox.com/modelpaper.html
  And if you have a bit more time: http://www.ibuc.com/pdfs/Geoecon.pdf

 My questions:
 
 There are two digital bearer systems:
 1. Lucre - where the issuer do not know the coin code.
 2. I$ - where the issuer knows the coin code.

Note: All the blinding in Lucrative is done client-side, the mint is agnostic
if blinding is done.

 Which one is better? Why?

Allow me to rephrase your question into Why anonymous digital bearer
instruments? (Instead of non-anonymous ones)
Also, the quotes below use 'digital cash', but the same applies for all DBI.

Anonymous digital cash can be defined as digital cash--for the purpose of
allowing personal financial privacy-- that is untraceable and transactions made
are unlinkable. 
Briefly, untraceable means a digital cash withdrawal cannot be associated
with its subsequent deposit, while unlinkable means that it is impossible to
associate two different digital cash transactions made by the same person with
each other. [JOG]

If the bank knows what is going on in your account, then potentially so can
anyone else: the records can be seized, or surreptitiously accessed by
computer, or a bank employee can be bribed to make them available. (In this
respect, it is useful to note that the system of Swiss numbered accounts was
created to protect bank customers from bank employees. Bank employees,
observing what occurred in a customer's account, could possibly subject the
customer to blackmail.) Anonymity requires first and foremost protection from
the prying eyes of the bank. [JOG]

Anonymous DBI relies on technology to be anonymous. Not on the believe that
the mint will respect your privacy just because they like you.

I could go on quoting that whole article, but better read it yourself :)
[JOG] = http://www.orlingrabbe.com/dcfutmo.htm

Looking forward to your comments,
Joris Bontje
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[e-gold-list] Re: Let's talk MONEY! (was: Re: US Diplomat resigns

2003-03-05 Thread Joris Bontje
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Tue, Mar 04, 2003 at 05:23:56PM -0500, James M. Ray wrote:
 Why is Lucre project so interesting?!

[cut]
 This brings up the point that I really want open-source software
 projects to accept e-gold donations, it's a good thing in a number of
 ways.

The Invisible IRC Project does accept e-gold donations!
http://www.invisiblenet.net/iip/
The support/donation page: http://www.invisiblenet.net/supportMain.php

Regards,
Joris Bontje (IIP project member)
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[e-gold-list] Re: Why _anonymous_ digital bearer instruments? (was:Re: Let's talk MONEY!)

2003-03-05 Thread Arik Schenkler
Shalom,

  My questions:
 
  There are two digital bearer systems:
  1. Lucre - where the issuer do not know the coin code.
  2. I$ - where the issuer knows the coin code.

 Note: All the blinding in Lucrative is done client-side, the mint is
agnostic
 if blinding is done.

Are you sure? Can you describe, how you think it works. (don't send me
to the links - I have read Lucre site).


  Which one is better? Why?

 Allow me to rephrase your question into Why anonymous digital bearer
 instruments? (Instead of non-anonymous ones)

So what you suggest is that:
If the issuer don't know the coin code - this is an anonymous digital bearer
(cash).
If the issuer knows the coin code - this is a non-anonymous digital bearer
(cash).

Why?

 Schenkler - Chief Money Maker
Internet Dollar electronic money system - http://InternetDollar.com





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[e-gold-list] Frank's right

2003-03-05 Thread Jim Davidson
Dear David,

You wrote:
BTW should we assume you do not have a bank account
or a credit card since both of these require 'verification'
of an account holder's identity???
Should we assume that your use of three question marks
represents a sneer on your face?
Why should one have a bank account or a credit card?
Neither of these things is especially useful compared
to its costs in privacy and liberty.  Both are very
readily replaced with workable and even superior
substitutes.
The identity culture is a bad thing.  It is a sad
manifestation of the belief that someone else can
tell you who you are, whereas you cannot be trusted
to tell others who you are.  Since we know that the
government lies all the time, why should we place
any trust in the government's identity papers?
Replacing the banking cartel with a customer service
oriented business promoting free market money should
be very easy.  There is no reason to require ID if
one is offered gold or silver, and every reason to
be offended by the request if it is made.
Finally, I'd like to point out that you are badly
mistaken in your assumption that it is necessary
to provide identity papers or even a Social Security
number to obtain access to bank accounts or credit
cards.
Serious participants in the economy shouldn't be
expected to identify themselves.  The whole idea
of passports, both internal and external, comes
from that great Prussian socialist Kaiser Wilhelm.
The world would be a better place if he had been
put against a wall and shot early in his career.
Regards,

Jim
 http://cambist.net/
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[e-gold-list] Re: Why _anonymous_ digital bearer instruments? (was: Re: Let's talk MONEY!)

2003-03-05 Thread Joris Bontje
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Wed, Mar 05, 2003 at 01:45:24PM +0200, Arik Schenkler wrote:
  Note: All the blinding in Lucrative is done client-side, the mint is
  agnostic if blinding is done.
 
 Are you sure? Can you describe, how you think it works. (don't send me
 to the links - I have read Lucre site).

I did want to send the link to the technical paper of Lucre (not Lucrative),
but I won't do it because you told me not to :)

The signing action that the mint does is:

m=(coinrequest)^k (mod p)

It doesn't matter if the coinrequest is (double)blinded or not,
mint-side the signing stays the same. See chapter 2.2 and 6 of the
technical Lucre paper on the Lucre site that you had read :)

  Allow me to rephrase your question into Why anonymous digital bearer
  instruments? (Instead of non-anonymous ones)
 
 So what you suggest is that:
 If the issuer don't know the coin code - this is an anonymous digital bearer
 (cash).
 If the issuer knows the coin code - this is a non-anonymous digital bearer
 (cash).
 
 Why?

(I assume that you mean the coin itself with 'coin code', not the
sourcecode of the system.)

With Lucre the coin is (x,z). x beeing a random ID, z beeing
the signature of oneway(x). If the mint knows the 'coincode' (x,z), it can
track every transaction through the system.

Alice funds the system with $100 and gets coin C1 from the mint.
... some time passes...
Bob reissues coin C1 for C2 on the mint.
The mint thus knows that Alice paid coin C1 to Bob.
... some time passes...
Carol wants to transfer $100 out of the system by depositing coin C2.
The mint thus knows that Bob gave C2 to Carol.

Doing this kind of analysis the mint can exactly know who pays whom, how
people are related etc. And it can reject C2 if at some point it decides
not to like Bob. Doesn't that sound like repudiable transactions?

Regards,
Joris Bontje
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[e-gold-list] Re: Let's talk MONEY! (was: Re: US Diplomat resigns

2003-03-05 Thread Arik Schenkler
Jim shalom,

 How would you (or the other anonymous currencies) keep
 criminals or terrorists from using your product if it's truly
 anonymous?

We won't. We allow everyone to use the system. We do not know who you are.
As a matter of fact - we do not care who you are!!!
How does the Federal Reserve protect against criminals, terrorists and
others the use of the US$?! They don't!

 Schenkler - Chief Money Maker
Internet Dollar electronic money system - http://InternetDollar.com










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[e-gold-list] Re: Let's talk MONEY! (was: Re: US Diplomat resigns

2003-03-05 Thread James M. Ray
At 5:13 PM +0200 3/5/03, Arik Schenkler wrote:
...
We won't. We allow everyone to use the system. We do not know who you are.
As a matter of fact - we do not care who you are!!!

I'm amazed that the HYIP folks seem to disdain your currency, then,
when other currencies do various things to drive them away. (I'd think
your government would object if terrorists started using Internetdollar
for transfers, but the only terrorist use of privately-issued currencies
so far has been 100% hypothetical AFAIK!) 

How does the Federal Reserve protect against criminals, terrorists and
others the use of the US$?! They don't!

(I guess I've gotten used to double-standards these days!)

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against anonymity (like the question, out
of context, might make one believe) I'm just curious about policies.
JMR




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[e-gold-list] For Sale: Internet Cash Machines EBook

2003-03-05 Thread Gerry
This Ebook shows the simple four-step procedure on how one can really make
money using the internet. Purchase includes resell rights, thus being a
source of income in itself.

For your copy, send US$10 worth of EGold to 113854.

IMPORTANT: In the memo field, put the email address where I would be
sending this EBook!

To further income,
Gerry



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[e-gold-list] PayPal replacement!

2003-03-05 Thread Graham Kelly
Guys,

We had many customers who would crank e-gold to us, in return for PayPal
credits. This worked well for a number of years, until PP decided they
didn't like the color of my $$$! Bless 'em!

Most of my e-goldPP customers have now opened HyperWallet.com
accounts, and we are running the *same* type of service now via
HyperWallet. Of course, one of the major benefits to my customers is that
HW is a whole lot cheaper @ $1 maximum charge, per transaction, which is
a LOT cheaper than the crazy PP charges.

GoldNow fee for e-goldHW? Zero, zip, zilch, nought, nothing!

Graham Kelly CEO

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Primary Customer Service +61 3 9415-7750
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[e-gold-list] e-gold raffle script.

2003-03-05 Thread Anthony Merrigan


ASP (access 2000) e-gold raffle script for sale only 15. Available on ebay
(http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemcategory=184item=340420181
6rd=1)

Please review...

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[e-gold-list] Re: [dgc.chat] CADAL

2003-03-05 Thread Craig Spencer
Freedom Lovers,

Liberty is in peril in the world.  But in Latin America it currently
is in peril not so much from the depredations of governments or the
conscious rejection of people as from true ignorance and
misinformation.  This is something that can be fought.  And in Latin
America there are good prospects that education can yield real change.
 I'd like to bring to your attention an organization aimed at doing
just this: CADAL (CENTRO PARA LA APERTURA Y EL DESARROLLO DE AMERICA
LATINA or Center for the Opening and Development of Latin America).

http://www.cadal.org

CADAL has been a major site for the dissemination of pro-free market
information and analysis of Latin American affairs.  Gabriel Salvia

[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

has just become its new director.  Gabriel is the former director of
the tremendous Fundacion Atlas.

http://www.atlas.org.ar/

Here is what Gabriel has to say about his mission.

My objective is nothing less than to convert this brilliant 
institution into one of the most influential in Latin America for
the promotion individual liberties in the region.  

You well know my work and my ideals, so I hope arouse your interest
in this my new undertaking.

CADAL, situated in Buenos Aires, has as its goal the observance and
promotion for civil, political and economic liberty in the countries
of Latin America.  CADAL originally arose about 2000 as an internet
site, developing informative content, producing TV spots and
organizing events.  

As of February 26, 2003 it has become a foundation.  The launching
of CADAL as an institute arose now as a response to the anti-
capitalist network which operates in the region and at the same time
because of the material and institutional retrogression that the
various countries of Latin America are suffering.

Consequently, as a strategy in the defense and the promotion of
individual liberty and economic progress for the peoples of Latin
America, CADAL offers a special dedication to supporting civil
society, freedom of expresssion, the rule of law and political
reforms that guarantee open democracy and economic policies that
permit free enterprise.

I have gotten Gabriel to arrange with his affiliate, the Atlas
Economic Research Foundation, 

http://www.atlasusa.org/

to open an e-gold account (#767583) so that they can receive 
donations in e-gold for the express purpose of assisting CADAL. 

I am going to donate 10 grams.  I urge everyone to consider doing
likewise.  Finally you have an opportunity to put your gold where your
mouth is.  Please put for CADAL in the memo field.

Best,

CCS






--
- Virtual Phonecards - Instant Pin by Email  -
-   Large Selection - Great Rates-
-  http://speedypin.com/phonecard/start.html?af=743  -
--

  **
  * Craig  Spencer *
  * [EMAIL PROTECTED] *
  **

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[e-gold-list] Awesome!! Freenet takes e-gold donations

2003-03-05 Thread James M. Ray
http://freenetproject.org/

one of the most-amazing free software projects ever! If
you want free speech in the future, you'll support them.
JMR



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[e-gold-list] e-gold raffle script for 15 - repost with working url

2003-03-05 Thread Anthony Merrigan


Hi,
I have set up a quick link to my ebay auction regarding the e-gold
raffle script for 15. The quick link is: (http://kickme.to/goldmembers/) as
the e-gold list seems not to display my ebay url correctly. Please review
the script and live sites from there.

Tony

---

Requirements:

  a.. ASP compatible host (get a free Brinkster account here!).
  b.. Access 2000 compatible host (Brinkster is fine).
  c.. e-gold account(s) (sign up for free/read more) for receiving payments.
  d.. !!!NO RESELL RIGHTS!!!
  e.. You may alter the script, but it remains copyright Anthony Merrigan
2003.
  f.. Copyright Anthony Merrigan footer must remain on every page.
Demo:

  a.. Live Version (Weekly e-gold Raffle)
  b.. Sites using this script:
a.. Weekly e-gold Raffle
b.. Golden Raffle
c.. Flashgold
d.. EzCashFlowExchange.com Weekly e-gold Raffle
  c.. Demo (Click Here).
  d.. Admin Demo (Click Here).
a.. Username = username
b.. Password = password
Features:

  a.. One screen easy setup after install.
  b.. Secure payment processing via e-gold CGI (incoming and outgoing).
  c.. Automatic ticket generation and database logging after payment
confirmation.
  d.. Real time display of prize totals based on percentages and ticket
price set by admin.
  e.. Pay winner and referrer of winner.
  f.. Referral Tracking.
Admin Features (Demo):

  a.. Secure password protected admin area.
  b.. Easily switch sites mode (Stop-Run). For preventing ticket sales
during winning ticket draw.
  c.. Easily pick random winning ticket and save to winners database.
  d.. Easily edit/delete ticket and winning ticket details.
  e.. Easily pay winner and referrer via e-gold.
How It Works:

  1.. Visitors buy a ticket for a set amount (e.g. $0.50) and pay via
e-gold. The prize is a set percentage of the total pot (takings).
  2.. Their details are logged in the tickets database automatically after
purchase is confirmed.
  3.. Both winner and referral prize pots are updated automatically and show
the new amounts that can be won this draw (you set the percentages during
setup!).
  4.. After a period of sales, you chose the winning ticket using the random
ticket selector and save it to the winners database.
  5.. Pay the winner and referrer their prize amounts via e-gold (built in
function). Then keep the rest for yourself.
  6.. Delete old tickets and start again.

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[e-gold-list] Fraud Report

2003-03-05 Thread bank
This fraud report is intended to offer a heads up to other exchange
providers and currency traders.

The following People have been confirmed for illegal activity and
fraudulent funds via E-Gold, PayPal and Brightpay

1) Walter Cavanaugh - E-Gold # 756547
2) Tove Morris - E-Gold # 717260
3) James Anderson - E-Gold # 713430

Thanks,
GetGoldNow



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