[e-gold-list] Re: gold on paper

[Robert B.Z.]

Hello Jim,

I was wondering what kept you :o)

In fact I was not speaking out against shares - or didn't mean to - at
least initialy. I was trying to set the stage for what my latter post was
meant to achieve namely warn about *possible* inflationary tendencies of
e-gold derivatives, for lack of a better word. In private conversations
with several clients of ours I realized that they believed that TGC shares
were good as gold, NOT because of good and sound business practices and
NOT because of dividend payments in gold, BUT because they paid gold for
them and because they are traded in gold.
Essentially many people appeared to be mistaking DBourse for 1MDC and
seemed to think that they could 'outexchange' their shares. I was as
flabbergasted about the thought as you are likely to be when you read my
posts and mistook them for lashing out against stock or comments about
what people should do with their money.

Even some of those who are seemingly aware that outexchanges are not
possible appear to have some weird concept about the mere fact of trading
a share in gold gives the share an inherent value beyond mere bid and ask.
As Danny pointed out, we could decide to trade Microsoft shares in gold
and it would be no different. In fact we could swap shares for eggs or
preused chewing gum if we wanted and found someone to trade with on that
premise.

The second item of concern for me was that because some people equate TGC
shares with e-gold there is an inherent potential of perceived
inflationary tendencies. The more shares are listed on private exchanges
(which I am very much FOR, of course) the higher the volume of instruments
of perceived value without enough 'currency' to support the perception.
In a scenario plan one could envision that the demand for e-gold itself
could be influenced through lively trading in shares on a market that only
allows e-gold to be used as a means of exchange. Imagine there were 20
ventures listed with a combined market cap of USD 2,000,000.00 imagine
further that people are keen on getting their hands on these shares.
First there is a run on e-gold, 2,000,000.00 dollars' worth. Once the
shares are bought and the sellers cash out there is a 2,000,000 dollar
worth of e-gold surplus. Great times for exchangers. But, during the run
and the subsequent oversupply e-gold Ltd would need to ensure enough flow
of first e-gold and later cash.

Of course, there is OmniPay to ensure that flow. But, how long would they
need to add $2,000,000 worth of gold to the storage and later to sell the
same amount?

Points to ponder.

Of course, I still believe that companies, just like partnerships should
have to allow for avenues to let shareholders leave the partnership
without needing a voting majority and winding up the company.
Which by the way is how companies still are obliged to redeem their own
shares, by being wound up and paying out all shareholders their cut from
the sale of the company's assets.

I feel that as the e-gold denominated equity markets are just in their
infancy, the operators of the exchanges could set a new standard (which
would actually be only taking a hint from history) and (re-)introduce a
system where shares can be sold back to the company, with say, three
months notice, based not on the share price, but on the actual value of
the company's assets. This is likely to do wonders for accounting
practices and assets valuations. After all, who would inflate their asset
value if they did risk shareholders showing up calling their bluff?

On a different note, how could you possibly benefit from dividend payments
from TGC a dozen times? I know that we got our share of the loot twice and
I don't believe that they issued unschedule dividends or anything? Or am I
missing something?

Cheers,
Robert.

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[e-gold-list] Re: What is TGC Share?

[Robert B.Z.]

> 
> Which historical period / region are you thinking about there, Robert ??
> 
Up to and just prior to the South Sea Bubble :o)

The times where people still believed that something had to be exchanged
in a fair trade. But as many a reputable business had issued shares and
used the revenue to invest into bubble shares the only way to avoid the
whole economy to revert permanently to  stone age partnerships (you hold
her, I whack her over the head) was to seperate the value base from shares
of stock.

Now, this is not to say that owners of a venture can't cash out by selling
shares. It is however to say that when a company issues shares with a face
value based on the company's assets then shareholders should be treated as
partners rather than as cash cows. And that is how it used to be.

Cheers,
Robert.

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[e-gold-list] Re: Looking for a server

[Robert B.Z.]

Hello Karl,

I am not sure why everyone thinks that the location of the server is
relevant in terms of legalities when courts have clearly decided that the
location of the operator is paramount.

Of course, French courts went as far as saying that the location of buyers
is the most relevant point when it comes to establishing valid
jurisdiction.

As far as I can see, where the server is located is only relevant if you
are outright breaking the law of the land - the land you reside in and
hope to draw your customers from.

That said, your requests sounds awfully as if you were planning to spam,
in which case we can't and won't help you. If however, that is not the
case, then have a look at www.cyberica.net and email us for a more
specific quote.

On a different note, if you are not spamming, how about adding health
insurance ( see www.cyfrocash.com ) to your product range?

Cheers,
Robert.

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[e-gold-list] OmniPay Out-Exchange Options

[zenbiker]

To which currencies will OmniPay currently out-exhcnage e-gold?  Last time
I used them (prior to the 'makeover' and its attendant hike in fees) they
only used US$ and AU$, but recently I saw a post on another forum to the
effect that OmniPay out-exchanges to EUR, CHF and JPY as well.  Is this
correct, or was the poster merely confusing e-gold's convenient exchange
rate charts and the options inside the suer interface for valuing a given
spend in numerous currencies with actual out-exchange functionality?


Frank




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[e-gold-list] user "security" is hopeless & Halifax bank knows it.

[James M. Ray]

http://theregister.co.uk/content/56/33599.html

and

http://theregister.co.uk/content/55/33602.html

Oh well. The Reg seems to be doing well tonight...
JMR


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[e-gold-list] Re: uncomfortable hammer

[jpm]

So, it looks like we're both going to miss on the gold
price hitting $400/oz for that discussion we've had
over on dgc.chat.  That price might be as much as 45
days from Friday.  Call it 8 December.  It may be as
soon as 36 days from Friday.  30 November.  The Friday
closes nearest those dates are 28 November and 5 December,
but the 28th is the day after Thanksgiving in New York,
so I'll have to check the Comex to see if they are open.
Something to think about.  What's your view, JP?


Well one point of view Mr. JD is, just look at a 60 day chart and you 
can see it looks a bit like it's setting up the second of a 
double-top (ie meaning it will go down over the next few weeks).

FWIW: I did suspect that from yesterday it would go down a bit at 
least for a few days.  I told this to say Dan at Sydney Gold Sales 
and he promtply went out to a disco to see if I was right in a few 
hours!!!  ;-)

BTW Sydney Gold Sales http://www.sydneygoldsales.com seems to be 
doing very well lately, perhaps because of their SIMPLE, SIMPLE, 
SIMPLE methods for selling gold at retail, and since Dan is my 
sometime in-law, I suggest everyone buys gold there immediately !! 
If not from Cambist of course!

Regards,

Jim


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[e-gold-list] Re: What is TGC Share?

[jpm]

Did you know that when stocks of share were first introduced, they were
redeemable at base/face value?
Which historical period / region are you thinking about there, Robert ??

JP



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[e-gold-list] gold on paper

[Jim Davidson]

Dear Robert,

Has it appeared to anyone that we are essentially turning
our gold into paper when we invest in stocks?
Yes, of course.  Or, put another way, gold is money and
you can invest your money in stocks.
therefore the share 'represent' gold.
I would not say so.  I would say the shares should represent
an ownership interest in the income potential of the underlying
company.  In other words, a share of stock in The Gold Casino
http://8715605.thegoldcasino.com/ represents an interest
in the stream of future earnings of the casino.  Its value
is therefore based on the net present value of that future
earnings stream.  Since that ownership interest in that
stream of future earnings is expressed very directly in
terms of dividends (and nice ones, too) it is well that the
dividends are paid in gold.
By the same token, I'd argue that it is essentially a
promissary note twice removed from gold. And that makes it
paper - digital paper if you will.
I disagree with the "promissory note" idea.  A promissory
note is a note to pay the principle invested at some future
date.  It may contain terms for payment of interest, which
both your philosophy and mine refer to as usury.  It is
possible to organize a promissory note for fee.
Shares of stock, however, are something different.  The
dividends paid are not interest.  They are a portion of
the earnings of the company.  Though some stocks have
been issued which do not offer to pay dividends, I
think these are much more speculative in nature.  For
a while, Microsoft didn't pay cash dividends, but seemed
to endlessly split its stock - paying a dividend in more
shares of stock.  While the stock price was consistently
rising, that was acceptable to investors.  More recently,
Microsoft has begun paying dividends, though only a tiny
amount of earnings per share, as I understand it.
Of course, TGC is generating revenue in gold and hence it
is able to pay dividends and redeem shares for gold. That
is if they are (a) profitable and (b) able to pay their way
in gold as well - which they are unlikely to be able to do.
I would expect that at least wages are paid in fiat.
I would expect no such thing.  If I were them, I'd pay
only contractors and denominate all such contracts in gold.
I'd pay out in gold, too, and assist the contractors or
employees in finding exchangers who can assist in converting,
say, e-gold to local currency.
Major areas of cost for the Gold Casino: domain registration,
web hosting, web development, flash programming, other
programming, help desk support, accounting - all of these
are presently available from various contractors who
accept e-gold.
no way of being sure that the shares are in fact redeemable
for e-gold, are we?
Since there is a private market for the exchange of shares,
and since share sales are in grams of gold, yes, I do think
the shares are redeemable for gold.  E-gold and other
currencies are available for bailment and redemption of
dBourse accounts, I think.
(which isn't regulated anywhere and hence there is no
garantee that a sale to anyone but a third party is even
possible),
I think dBourse is regulated by contract, by public
scrutiny of which your message is an example, and by
the management of the Gold Casino.  I don't see any
indication anywhere that TGC offers or plans to buy
back the stock it has made available to the public.
they then would inexchange e-gold to honour their promise.
I suppose you could buy a share, today, wait for the
dividend on 1 November and try to get your dividend
payment out of your dBourse account and into your e-gold
account.  That would indicate something about whether their
promises are any good.
Having done exactly that dozens of times with my TGC
account, I feel very confident that these guys are good
to their word.  I have never heard of anyone who has
been screwed by TGC after placing bets and winning gold.
we have no way of telling, do we?
We don't have a huge amount of information about the exact
behavior of TGC with regards to money.  However, I think
JP May has previously stated that ISL did a bunch of the
programming for TGC.  I have heard from one of the programmers
of the multi-player poker on TGC.  So, these major areas of
expense appear to me to very likely have been paid in gold,
either e-gold or GoldMoney or Pecunix or e-Bullion.  I
think it very likely that the other major identifiable
expense areas can also be paid in e-gold or one of the
other forms of online gold.  I could get you a list of
vendors who accept e-gold for domain registrations, a
list of those who accept e-gold for web and domain hosting
and e-mail hosting, a list of those who accept e-gold for
accounting.  But, I feel confident that you could get
these results for yourself.
Of course, I still think it's all a great idea and all, I
was just pondering the eery similarities of how people with
the best of intentions are creating precedents that other
then abuse to remove the value components from money...
I think you are co

[e-gold-list] Xodds Announcement - FIXED-ODDS GROUP LTD PROUDLY ANNOUNCES THAT IT IS CHANGING ITS NAME TO REGENT MARKETS GROUP LTD

[Guido Farrugia]

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SLM 09
Corporate Communications: Parkgreen Communications Ltd.
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Tel +44 20 7898 9024 / +44 20 7898 9148
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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[e-gold-list] Looking for a server

[kl1]

I am looking for a server , details down.

Will be used for advertising for a pharmacies directory. Not sales will be
made just advertising.

Must be located in a country where laws are not very restriced with this
kind of bussiness ( Netherland maybe or other countries)

I need a fast reply

THANK YOU
Karl


min.

Intel P4 2.4 GHz
2 Gb RAM
30ish SCSI HDD
5 Ip's
need 500 Gb





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[e-gold-list] CloudCasino Slots Tournament 5,000+ USD UP FOR GRABS

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[e-gold-list] Re: What is TGC Share?

[Robert B.Z.]

Danny,
Did you know that when stocks of share were first introduced, they were
redeemable at base/face value? Similar to a partnership where one party
wants out, shares could be returned to the company and sold at the base
value which was determined through the actual sale value of the company's
assets divided by the number of shares outstanding. Coicidentially that is
why we use the term of shares outstanding ;o)

Patrick,
I agree that gold in a vault is dead capital and of little use to most of
us. However, as I pointed out in my post, the reason for my pondering was
how such a precedent often leads to the loss of the value base of money.

THE FOLLOWING IS NOT ABOUT DGC, JUST A THOUGHT GAME OF SORTS

Let's assume for the moment that there is 1,000 ounzes of gold in storage
at gold-currency.dom and that an online casino goldslots.dom beginns to
issue shares that are sold for gold-currency.dom units at 1 ounze per
share.
1,000 shares are sold, goldslots.dom outexchanges the 1,000 ounzes to pay
some new software it bought. People now hold 1,000oz worth of shares,
there are 1,000oz in circulation, do you see where I'm heading here?
In theory the number of ounzes in circulation has just doubled. People
hold their shares believing that they are 'good as gold', but in order to
trade all shares one would need to control all 1,000oz in circulation.
If goldslots.dom decided to issue another 500 shares and there are takers
for it, suddely there would be more shares in circulation than ounzes
available to buy them all.

All the while there are people who own 1,500 shares, each 'worth' an ounze
but only 1,000 ounzes to trade them.
Hence the inherent value of the shares even if it did not rise at all,
would still be inflationary.

And that is where one of the problems are when an exchange allows only one
currency to be used for trade. The inherent problem would be removed, if
people could swap 'bearer' shares for anything they want, of course. But
hey, that means we just created an infaltionary fiat currency that started
out as having a gold base and suddenly there is more paper than gold...

Cheers,
Robert.

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[e-gold-list] e-gold scheduled downtime notification

[James M. Ray (e-gold address)]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
see:
Scheduled Downtime link on the e-gold home page
when:
Friday, October 31, 2003 0900 EDT to
Friday, October 31, 2003 1100 EDT
(see web page for links to convert times to your local timezone)
what:
routine system maintenance
during the time listed on the downtime page, the e-gold system
will be unavailable to end users as it undergoes maintenance.
we appreciate your patience during this timeframe.

JMR (substituting for Jay W., who's very busy right now).

-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: PGP 8.0.2 - not licensed for commercial use: www.pgp.com
iQA/AwUBP51off/Y0EyuFBE0EQKdCwCfRFFS/g90tE00ZdERw4INLGkGQgUAoP4R
HUarpOrMrZF0ExxUI7D0e6xu
=Afsc
-END PGP SIGNATURE-


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[e-gold-list] Re: TGC IPO Now Clear!

[James M. Ray]

Danny Van den Berghe wrote:

...
They may have changed their mind seeing that the ipo could fail if unsold
shares keep depressing the price for too long.
I still fail to see how they were failing if shares sold slower than
they've actually sold, or why they'd bother to try to manipulate
share prices.
...
Prices are stable because there is hardly any trading besides the ipo sales.
But the bid/ask spread is very wide (85 / 102), and that is not so great.
It means when you want to sell you have to take a rather big loss..
Or wait a bit. This is not a problem, IMO, just a sign of a
thinly traded market.
...

As for the price stability, that is of course the advantage of the way they
did the ipo.
But the disadvantage of this system is that if the issue receives little
demand it can take years before all the ipo shares are gone, and that means
the price cannot go up.
Many buyers expressed more interest in a gram-denominated
dividend than they did in any particular share price, though. I
think the dividend fans are still quite satisfied.
With the "normal" ipo, there is a limited time period when you can sign up
for the shares, and as soon as that period ends the stock can start trading
freely up and down. The disadvantage is high volatility during the first
days of trading.
Mostly due to distortions caused by favored insiders, yes. This
has certainly been a refreshing IPO from that point of view.
The advantage is that you know beforehand when the stock will start trading
normally.
I'm not sure you've ever admitted anything about DBourse is
normal before (well, normal if insiders didn't buy their own
shares, I guess). This is progress! :)
In the end it means you have to choose for the lesser evil.
Honestly , I prefer the limited time "normal" ipo at the cost of less price
stability in the beginning.
I'd agree, but only if I get to be a favored insider! Quattrone
just got off, stockbrokers, so it's safe to have favorites now. I
am officially available to fill the role.
...
Nobody is sure about this stock.

True.
...
NYSE is not a regulator. 
That's not what the Chairman says (or was "overpaid" for!). The
NYSE *does* claim to be a regulator, according to articles on
(over?)compensation of the NYSE board, it's part of what the
chairman is/was paid for (at the moment he gets a dollar).
...
Well, let all the stocks on NYSE trade on dbourse style self-run exchanges
and scandals might be even more frequent.
It's surely possible (but they'll have to work at it!).

On a self-run exchange the door for abuse of many kinds is wide open.
That doesn't mean every company management would abuse it, but opportunity
makes the thief as it is said.
Exactly why I don't trust NYSE's (self-run) middlemen, Danny!

...
Maybe not TGC, but the possibility to enter fake transactions is wide open.
How many ipo's of this kind would you need before you have some not so
honest management taking advantage of it?
You just "pump" the price of the stock with fake transactions that never
happened inorder to seduce investors to buy up this "hot" stock at ever
higher prices.
Some sharks will not see that as a waste of time.
Maybe this is why they've not allowed other share issues?

...
Nobody forces you to trade your stocks on the NYSE, just go to an eletronic
trading platform where you have no middle man.
Sure, like DBourse.

In my brokergae account I have complete choice whether I want to buy (or
sell) on nyse, instinet, island,...
And nobody forces you to buy mutual funds.
I never said they did, I only commented on scandals involving
(once again...) favored insiders getting a better deal than  the
little guy.
A middle man on the NYSE is just making a market in a few stocks, he may be
honest or not so honest.
He is not in any way different from an exchange provider that sells you
e-gold, pecunix, etc...
...

No, he has a monopoly on that stock (Muriel Siebert, to  her
everlasting credit, wants there to be competition, but right now
there is not).
...
So, if you are in favor of independant market makers for e-gold, then I
don't understand why you have problems with the middle man on NYSE
Apples & Oranges, see above.


...
No, if you've got the grams and the offer is out there and you make
a bid, things tend to happen instantly on DBourse, trust me...


How it can go instantly if there is no automatic funding/refunding as you
say?
Funding takes time, but once you've got grams in their system a
trade is instant when you request it, if a bid & ask match.
JMR






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[e-gold-list] Re: What is TGC Share?

[Patrick Chkoreff]

On Monday, October 27, 2003, at 12:42 AM, Robert B.Z. wrote:

Has it appeared to anyone that we are essentially turning our gold into
paper when we invest in stocks? Just wondering.
I know, people will now argue that shares are traded in gold and
exchangeable only for gold and that therefore the share 'represent' 
gold.
By the same token, I'd argue that it is essentially a promissary note
twice removed from gold. And that makes it paper - digital paper if you
will.
But of course, Robert, that is the nature of any investment.  You 
invest capital and get a piece of paper in return.  That's the nature 
of stocks, loans, Islamic installment payment plans, whatever.  The 
value of the paper is the value of the promise written on it.

Are you suggesting we should just hold onto any gold that we don't 
spend for immediate needs like food, water, shelter, and clothing?  You 
really want all gold not used for immediate consumption to sit around 
collecting dust  in vaults or just take up disk space in digital 
accounts?

As Goto Dengo says in Neal Stephenson's "Cryptonomicon," gold is merely 
the CORPSE of wealth.  True wealth is action, happiness, love, fun, 
health, well-being -- things which are facilitated by gold, not 
embodied in it.

-- Patrick
http://fexl.com
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[e-gold-list] Re: TGC IPO Now Clear!

[Danny Van den Berghe]

> >> So you're saying the new buyers are TGC themselves? How do you know?
> >> Why couldn't the new buyers be, say, new buyers?!?
>
> Just for the record Gold-Price.net submitted the buy orders for 15 of
> the shares
> in TGC IPO (3.75% of the total IPO).  With two of those shares being
> certificate numbers
> 398 and 399. So you can rule out TGC taking away these shares from the
> IPO!


Oh, perhaps they were clever enough to remove certifcates 250 till 350, or
whatever numbers you want.
TGC people are probably not idiots.
Does it prove anything that you have nrs 398 and 399

I wonder if you bought 15 shares, why do you say that two of those shares
have nrs 398 and 399?
Don't you have an entire sequence of 15 subsequent numbers?
If that is the case you have another indication that they did actually
remove some stocks as I suspect.
Would you bother to tell us the certificate nrs of the other 13 shares in
that buy order of yours?




> I also happen to personally know the owners of at least 60 other shares!
>
> You can view 11 of the shares we have purchased and currently manage
> on our publicly viewable balance page at Dbourse here:
>
> https://www.dbourse.com/viewpublicinfo/?goldprice
>
> What evidence do you have to support your claim Danny?


Just as much evidence as you have to claim that all shares are sold. None.
With such an intransparent stock all we say about it is inevitably
speculation and belief, no matter whether we defend the issue or criticise
it.



Danny









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[e-gold-list] Re: What is TGC Share?

[Danny Van den Berghe]

> Has it appeared to anyone that we are essentially turning our gold into
> paper when we invest in stocks? Just wondering.
>
> I know, people will now argue that shares are traded in gold and
> exchangeable only for gold and that therefore the share 'represent' gold.
> By the same token, I'd argue that it is essentially a promissary note
> twice removed from gold. And that makes it paper - digital paper if you
> will.


Yes, Robert, stocks are paper (or digits), even if they trade for gold.
Stock are paper money.
They are a promis, a promis for a share in the eventual future profits of
the company.

Conversely it would be quite correct to say that the paper currency is
actually the stock of a country.
The US dollar is a stock.

One could start trading the Microsoft shares for gold tomorrow, but that
would not change anything to the nature of Microsoft stocks.




> Of course, TGC is generating revenue in gold and hence it is able to pay
> dividends and redeem shares for gold. That is if they are (a) profitable
> and (b) able to pay their way in gold as well - which they are unlikely to
> be able to do. I would expect that at least wages are paid in fiat.


Yes, and also most of their customer are earning in fiat currencies.
How much gold they can buy and use for gambling depends on the purchasing
power of their dollar, euros, yens.
If the price of gold goes down, 1% percent of their monthly wages will buy
more ounces of gold that can be lost in the casino.
That's the currency effect I described a while back.




> That
> in turn means that gold is being exchanged and as we do not know how much
> gold TGC keeps in stock and how much is being exchanged into fiat, we have
> no way of being sure that the shares are in fact redeemable for e-gold,
> are we?


I don't know of any stocks that are redeemable.
A company issues shares and receives dollars or e-gold in return.
Basically these dollars or gold remain theirs forever unless they decide to
buy back their own shares.
You cannot go to the company and ask to redeem your shares for whatever was
the ipo issue price.

If you want your money back to only way is to find somebody else who wants
to buy your shares.
When a company becomes known to be in trouble, that really becomes a game of
passing on the hot coal to any taker.

The company has no obligation to buy back shares.
But sometimes a company will decide to buy back its own shares on the
market, especially when they are trading below fair value.



> It may well be that if it came to the crunch and TGC would have to buy
> back their shares (which isn't regulated anywhere and hence there is no
> garantee that a sale to anyone but a third party is even possible), that
> they then would inexchange e-gold to honour their promise. And that, makes
> the shares paper. If the revenue fro the sale of the shares is kept in
> e-gold, then of course, the shares are not paper. But we have no way of
> telling, do we?


That's why normally companies regularly publish their books and verified by
a third party.
That provides the shareholders with a reasonably reliable information about
what's going on in the company and what value is left in their bank
accounts.
Investors are willing to pay a premium for shares of companies that are
transparent.



Danny





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[e-gold-list] Re: TGC IPO Now Clear!

[Danny Van den Berghe]

> But every single prediction you've made has been completely and
> totally wrong, Danny.


So what?

I don't care WHO is right, my only interest is WHAT is right

If "saying" TOTALLY WRONG things works to bring out correct information then
I won't hesitate a moment.
Just look how many people now speak up that they were behind this or that
buy order.
I am sure it makes a few TGC stockholders more comfortable to know that.

I also got a private message from the person who bought the 35 shares
(including the 3 at 98gr)
That's good to know. He also thanked me for the criticising I do, he
realises it is useful to be prepared for the worst too.

As an outsider we have almost no real information about TGC.
I am pointing out some not so rosy scenarios and loopholes with this way of
issueing and trading stocks.

You seem to be the only one who is always pissed off when I do that. Why?
Is there any harm to consider the possibility that it might rain tomorrow?



> No-one will buy a share .. shares sold.  Shares will never sell!
> Shares sell promtply.  Shares will never sell out!  They sell out in
> a few months.  And now - there will never be any more sales.  OK.
>
> Your posts on the matter should start off, "I'm sorry I was
> staggeringly wrong last time, but ..."   I know, I know, they Weren't
> Predictions.  You were Just Saying Something.


I don't care about being wrong, so there is no need to say sorry for that.

My grandfather told me: "If you want to become wiser, be wrong more often"

But so far I was not proven wrong on anything I said about TGC, I am
waiting...
Until we have verifiable information about TGC and this ipo, nothing is
proven or disproven




> >It appears to me that TGC has done the only thing they could do to save
this
> >IPO, by taking away the oversupply of stocks that hung over the market.
>
> Amazing!  In fact, NOT Jim Ray, but DANNY is actually the Man Behind
> tgc. He knows.


You could be right. Even George Bush could be the man behing tgc.
We simply don't know.

And if you are really honest , your statements about tgc should also start
with "It appears to me..."
The subject should read: "It appears that TGC IPO is now clear"
It is shown on their site, but not verified or verifiable.



> >As I had pointed out, with 150 shares hanging over the market and sales
> >apparently drying up in August,
>
> Here's a fantastic new approach --- simply Make Things Up!
>
> Totally awesome!


Yes, that's a very good approach indeed.
Consider all possibilities, even the remote ones.

People who refuse to do that are simply austriches, putting their heads in
the sand...



> So when you're completely wrong, you won't really be wrong, and you
> can go on to something else, and you won't have to start your email
> "I'm sorry I was staggeringly wrong last time, but ..."


Are you scared of being wrong, or what?

What a discourse about being wrong and having to say so when you start your
next email.

Really, it makes more sense to say sorry when one was right. Think about
that.



> But wait!  You've been caight out, making an Actual Factual
> Statement.  You weren't Just Saying:  You were actually making a
> Claim:
>
> >But everybody can manipulate the price of TGC shares, at least if you own
> >some shares.


Yes that's a claim.
Just open two accounts. Put in a bid @86 and sell a share to yourself.
You have now manipulated the price down to 86
Anyone with shares can do it.



> So, we can all now watch the price being manipulated.  Outstanding.


Indeed.


> Sigh


You take your stocks too serious, my friend.


> The only overall question is why your Agenda -- I'm guessing you had
> something to do with some online stock market project that totally
> failed - am I right?  So now you're bitter?


No, you got it wrong there.
I am too lazy for online stock market projects.



> I'm all for the "loyal opposition" in your constant stream of
> endlessly changed stories and ever shifting rationales, can you at
> least try to make sense??


Sometimes not making sense brings more results.
I rather keep myself the freedom to make sense or not make sense whatever I
deem more fruitful in a particular situation.
People who always try to make sense are simply slaves of ratio, robots..

And what doesn't make sense to you perhaps makes sense to others, so who
will be the judge on it?
Soon you'll also require me to come out saying sorry when I didn't make
sense (to you?)
Not with me.
I will change and shift whatever story I want to, make sense whenever I want
to, say sorry whenever I want to.
You are not the person to tell me what to do, when and how.
I am not accepting your chains.
Nobody is forcing you to read my mails.

The other readers on the list are old enough to decide for themselves
whether I make sense or not.


That is laissez-faire, my friend.


You are very defensive about TGC stocks.
Other people on the list are more open to different points of view.
You only want to see the "great honest guys at TGC"

[e-gold-list] Re: TGC IPO Now Clear!

[Danny Van den Berghe]

> > Notice I started with: "It appears to me..."
> >
>
> Ah, my bad. Ok, it appears to *me* that nobody knows much of
> anything about the last sale, or about many of the sales!


That's exactly my point.
Those who say that all the TGC shares are sold now are speculating just as
much as me saying that perhaps TGC took away the oversupply themselves.
Nobody (except the insiders) has verifiable information.
You either believe what they put on the site or you don't believe it.
I am just pointing out a few possibilities other than what you see posted on
their site.

What is really going on at TGC, I am just as blind as everybody else.
That's why I think it's useful to consider all the possibilities.
There is no harm in discussing other than the "TGC are very honest guys"
scenarios



> > It is not dificult for the TGC people to set up their own account at
dbourse
> > and transfer the unsold TGC shares into it (without paying for them).
> > That removes the 100+ block of shares on the offer side and allows the
stock
> > price to
> > go up.
>
> Yeah, but it also removes ten kilos of e-gold from the pot! I
> can't see how this would be in their interest. In private email
> to me they predicted it would take even longer than this to
> clear, so I don't think they were in a hurry.


They may have changed their mind seeing that the ipo could fail if unsold
shares keep depressing the price for too long.
And it doesn't really remove e-gold from the pot.
As the oversupply is taken from the offer, people might become more
interested to buy because now the stock can go up.
That will allow them to slowly sell the shares they took away in their own
account, perhaps even at prices higher than 100 gr.

What I described is nothing new.
A company doing an ipo can only estimate the demand for the shares.
Sometimes the demand is weak and in that case the underwriter usually takes
up the unsold shares and tries to sell them on the market later on. It is
common practice.


> ...
> >
> > It didn't happen because the 150 shares hanging over the market are gone
> > now.
> >
>
> And prices are still stable. Discounting the humorous bids
> and asks I think all trades have been within a range of 11
> grams or so (and the 90 gram shares were an anomaly -- if
> we disregard those the price has been INCREDIBLY stable).

Prices are stable because there is hardly any trading besides the ipo sales.
But the bid/ask spread is very wide (85 / 102), and that is not so great.
It means when you want to sell you have to take a rather big loss..




> ...
> >
> > A "healthy" order book will show more bids than offers. That's why I say
the
> > stock is very poorly bid.
> >
>
> I think it's poorly-bid but widely-watched.


That could be.
And I am taking care that it remains widely watched :-)



> > The argument that people don't want to tie up e-gold doesn't quite
convince
> > me.
> > If you are interested to buy TGC shares it is with gold you are not
going to
> > need tomorrow.
> > And if you don't trust TGC for keeping your e-gold tied up, then you'll
also
> > not bother to buy their shares..
> > I also suppose you can get your e-gold back when you withdraw your bid?
> >
>
> You can, but there's as yet no automated interface, so while your
> arguments make sense, it *does* tie up you gold until DBourse
> gets your request to spend, and some people just don't like that.


Well, if you are interested to buy stocks on the ordinary stock market, you
will need to put money with a broker.
So, things are not really any different on the known stock exchanges.
If you are really interested to buy and sell stocks you don't mind tying up
some capital for it.



> ...
> >
> > Yes, but more than 100 shares sold quickly in blocks of 10 and more
> > would indicate that there are people out there interested to buy TGC at
100.
> > Have they suddenly lost interest now the ipo shares are gone?
>
> I don't know, but no more shares were available for 100 when
> I last looked.


Sure, but you can still bid 100



>
> > Normally you would now see bids for at least 20 or 30 shares @100 or
@99,
> > that would be congruent with the pace of sales shown for the last weeks.
> > Instead we see one meagre bid for 1 share @85
> >
>
> But that was only a few people, who all already got shares. I
> don't think this makes sense, because the pace of sales has
> been so erratic as to be meaningless. I find meaning in the
> stability of share prices that is so atypical of a "normal" IPO.


It is true that because this stock issue is so small we will likely see big
statistical abberations, and the bid/offer book will be only a very rough
indication for the real supply and demand. But it is an indication
nevertheless.

As for the price stability, that is of course the advantage of the way they
did the ipo.
But the disadvantage of this system is that if the issue receives little
demand it can take years before all the ipo shares are gone, and that means
the price cannot go up.
With the "nor

[e-gold-list] Press Release: DBourse Introduces Publicly Viewable Accounts

[Public Relations - TheGoldCasino]

  FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE


  DBOURSE INTRODUCES PUBLICLY VIEWABLE ACCOUNTS

  Optional Account Feature Permits Visible Holdings


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today unveiled a publicly-viewable accounts feature on DBourse, the online
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"Although many users will not need this feature, which is inactive by
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"Since DBourse is founded on the principle of transparency, we are happy
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Public accounts can be viewed at the URL
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question.

Any shareholder who wishes their account to be publicly viewable in this
manner may write to the DBourse service desk requesting public account
status.

The casino issued 400 shares in a well-received public offering on June
17, 2003, at an initial price of 100 grams per share and an initial
dividend of 0.60 grams per month. Each share currently pays a dividend of
0.62 grams per month. The public offering has recently sold out, and
shares have since traded at a high of 100.5 grams.



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platform support, and unparalleled customer service.  The Gold Casino is
hosted from the island nation of Sealand (http://www.sealandgov.com) and
its shares trade under the symbol 'TGC' on DBourse
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Dividend-paying shares in TGC can be purchased immediately on DBourse, an
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Nick Pavlovich
Public Relations, The Gold Casino
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.thegoldcasino.com/docs/


  # # #



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[e-gold-list] Re: uncomfortable hammer

[Jim Davidson]

Dear JP,

JimD, purely FWIW, that was just ANOTHER hammer.  (Perhaps
signalling another [temporary?] change in direction?)
There was definitely a hammer on Friday 24 October near the
close in New York.  The price went up to $392.50 or so
intra-day and closed at $388.20.
My response was to close out some of my positions and make
sure that any gold coming in at $388.20 went out before
I stopped operations for the sabbath on Saturday at
sundown.  I don't mind buying near the top if I can sell
there, too.
Based on my technical analysis, which has met with a great
deal of criticism by others, and which is nothing compared
to "It's All in the Charts" of yore, I think the peak on
Friday touched the upper lines of two of several apparent
trading channels.  The recent low of around $366.60 or so
(again, intra-day) is the bottom of the narrower of these
two channels.  This narrower channel has a steeper slope.
It is also a more recent "turn" of events.  So, I think,
yes, we have a short-term change of direction.
If the newer narrower channel represents the expected
trading range, then gold should drift to $378 in the
next few days, or $380 by next week.  If the wider and
older and less steep trading channel is the expected
trading range, gold would drop as low as the $365 range
in the next three or four weeks, $370 if it takes its
time coming down.  I note that the wider range seems
less likely since there is a good deal of support
showing at $375 on the 60-day chart.  Volatility also
seems to be increasing, so the shifts should follow a
narrower channel; the identifiable narrower channel is
steeper, so that's better for higher prices sooner.
So, it looks like we're both going to miss on the gold
price hitting $400/oz for that discussion we've had
over on dgc.chat.  That price might be as much as 45
days from Friday.  Call it 8 December.  It may be as
soon as 36 days from Friday.  30 November.  The Friday
closes nearest those dates are 28 November and 5 December,
but the 28th is the day after Thanksgiving in New York,
so I'll have to check the Comex to see if they are open.
Something to think about.  What's your view, JP?

Regards,

Jim

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