Re: objective html

[robert burrell donkin]

On Tuesday, December 18, 2001, at 07:40 AM, keithwong wrote:

>>  is there any need to take things *so* personally? 
>>
>
> Sorry Rob.. sarcasm doesn't go well with me.
>
>> please take the trouble the find out who you're flaming before starting 
>> a
>> war that you're going to loose. for example, try www.google.com and 
>> search
>> for '"jon stevens"+ java'. at the moment, jon's being really pretty
>> constructive - if you take the time to discuss things with him in a 
>> mature
>> way, jon has a huge amount to teach you about writing frameworks.
>
> thanks for google tip.. now i have a picture of Jon, cool..

AFAIK jon was the one who taught me that.

>
>>
>> finally FYI ecs isn't a failed project - just a mature one. there is a
>> difference.
>>
>
> and these are the words from Jon himself "That is why this project is 
> nearly
> dead..." ??

you need to understand that dead != failed. open source lives by 
contributions - users talk on the list, developer submit patches and 
committers commit code. ecs is a mature project. the only real 
improvements would be to make the code run faster and improve some 
elements of the design (this is the ecs2 outline) - but these aren't 
issues for most users. (there was an unexpected and innovative patch 
relatively recently but unfortunately i didn't feel able to take the 
positive design decision and commit it into the core.)

in many ways, ecs is a success. ecs is relatively bug-free and is good at 
it's job - creating marked up text in code. it's just that this doesn't 
seem very exciting any more.

- robert


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Re: objective html

[Jon Scott Stevens]

on 12/18/01 10:46 AM, "robert burrell donkin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> in many ways, ecs is a success. ecs is relatively bug-free and is good at
> it's job - creating marked up text in code. it's just that this doesn't
> seem very exciting any more.
> 
> - robert

No. We found better ways to solve the problem.

When I started out doing java servlets in 1996; Velocity, WebMacro, JSP,
JHTML, GSP, etc...all these technologies either didn't exist or clearly
sucked and there was nothing else to use.

After being forced by a client (Novell) to use htmlKona (a commercial
version of ECS created by weblogic), I did the typical thing and figured
that weblogic knew what they were doing and htmlKona must be a good
idea...little did I know... The sad thing is that companies like
BEA/weblogic and Sun continue to push their ideas on people who don't have a
clue...not realizing themselves that they don't have a clue either...EJB and
JSP is a perfect example of this...

Eventually, through much trial and even more error, I figured out that ECS
was the wrong way to go. It is more expensive and more work to hire java
engineers to convert HTML mockups into Java (ECS code) than it is to hire
html designers to do it for you. It is even more of a pain in the ass to go
through the process of revising that code at a later date. This is why ECS
as a solution is a failure...there are much better ways now to solve the
problem that didn't exist before. As a project, it was a great success...we
developed a really cool piece of code and built a cool community and I made
some good friends (Stephan and Robert). I also learned a lot about how to
write Java code.

Needless to say, back to the original email...objectivehtml will also be a
failure. Contrary to what you believe, I DID look at it and I do have an
understanding of how it works. The failure is not because you don't write
good code, but because I have already seen people do (and have done myself)
exactly what you are trying to do and have watched it fail multiple times. I
said this originally, but you didn't get it. I also find it terribly sad and
pretty uncool that you came here looking to advertise your product. That is
like running into a crowded room and yelling out: "Hey, look at me! I'm
better than all of you!".

Honestly, there is very little room for innovation in the java webapp
framework space at this point. We have solved nearly every problem out
there. Now, it is a matter of polishing those solutions up and packaging
them for distribution. DVSL will be the next killer thing and is the last
major piece in the puzzle and then from there, it is just a matter of
polish.

My suggestion to you is to learn an existing framework and use and
contribute to that instead of trying to re-invent something that has been
invented and failed multiple times now.

Good luck.

-jon


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Re: objective html

[keithwong]

so let me get this right... you guys use some old ideas... its a success...
i use some old ideas.. its a failure
right...

anyway Jon, thanks for you help... you email this time round has been much
more constructive... even though i don't agree with it..

cheers,
Keith

- Original Message -
From: "Jon Scott Stevens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "ecs-user" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 6:24 AM
Subject: Re: objective html


> on 12/18/01 10:46 AM, "robert burrell donkin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
> > in many ways, ecs is a success. ecs is relatively bug-free and is good
at
> > it's job - creating marked up text in code. it's just that this doesn't
> > seem very exciting any more.
> >
> > - robert
>
> No. We found better ways to solve the problem.
>
> When I started out doing java servlets in 1996; Velocity, WebMacro, JSP,
> JHTML, GSP, etc...all these technologies either didn't exist or clearly
> sucked and there was nothing else to use.
>
> After being forced by a client (Novell) to use htmlKona (a commercial
> version of ECS created by weblogic), I did the typical thing and figured
> that weblogic knew what they were doing and htmlKona must be a good
> idea...little did I know... The sad thing is that companies like
> BEA/weblogic and Sun continue to push their ideas on people who don't have
a
> clue...not realizing themselves that they don't have a clue either...EJB
and
> JSP is a perfect example of this...
>
> Eventually, through much trial and even more error, I figured out that ECS
> was the wrong way to go. It is more expensive and more work to hire java
> engineers to convert HTML mockups into Java (ECS code) than it is to hire
> html designers to do it for you. It is even more of a pain in the ass to
go
> through the process of revising that code at a later date. This is why ECS
> as a solution is a failure...there are much better ways now to solve the
> problem that didn't exist before. As a project, it was a great
success...we
> developed a really cool piece of code and built a cool community and I
made
> some good friends (Stephan and Robert). I also learned a lot about how to
> write Java code.
>
> Needless to say, back to the original email...objectivehtml will also be a
> failure. Contrary to what you believe, I DID look at it and I do have an
> understanding of how it works. The failure is not because you don't write
> good code, but because I have already seen people do (and have done
myself)
> exactly what you are trying to do and have watched it fail multiple times.
I
> said this originally, but you didn't get it. I also find it terribly sad
and
> pretty uncool that you came here looking to advertise your product. That
is
> like running into a crowded room and yelling out: "Hey, look at me! I'm
> better than all of you!".
>
> Honestly, there is very little room for innovation in the java webapp
> framework space at this point. We have solved nearly every problem out
> there. Now, it is a matter of polishing those solutions up and packaging
> them for distribution. DVSL will be the next killer thing and is the last
> major piece in the puzzle and then from there, it is just a matter of
> polish.
>
> My suggestion to you is to learn an existing framework and use and
> contribute to that instead of trying to re-invent something that has been
> invented and failed multiple times now.
>
> Good luck.
>
> -jon
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> For additional commands, e-mail: 
>


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Re: objective html

[Jon Scott Stevens]

on 12/19/00 1:31 PM, "keithwong" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> anyway Jon, thanks for you help... you email this time round has been much
> more constructive... even though i don't agree with it..

If you don't agree with me, then prove that you are right and I am wrong.

-jon


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RE: objective html

[David Ethell]

I think you're still missing the point. They aren't saying ECS is a
success as a platform and objectivehtml won't be. They are saying ECS is
a success as far as an open source project, but not as a platform for
developing web apps. I think Jon would say that objectivehtml may be
every bit as successful of an open-source project as ECS has been and
maybe more so, but that doesn't change the fact the method of using Java
objects to code HTML is out and MVC templatized approaches are in. The
project may be a great implementation of a bad model.

Of course, as Jon and others may remember, I'm one of those ones still
using the bad model even though I know it's the bad model so there will
likely be some folks who will use objectivehtml. But those folks will be
the minority compared to an approach like Turbine/Velocity/etc.

-David

> -Original Message-
> From: keithwong [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
> Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2000 4:32 PM
> To: ECS Users List
> Subject: Re: objective html
> 
> 
> so let me get this right... you guys use some old ideas... 
> its a success... i use some old ideas.. its a failure right...
> 
> anyway Jon, thanks for you help... you email this time round 
> has been much more constructive... even though i don't agree with it..
> 
> cheers,
> Keith
> 
> - Original Message -
> From: "Jon Scott Stevens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "ecs-user" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 6:24 AM
> Subject: Re: objective html
> 
> 
> > on 12/18/01 10:46 AM, "robert burrell donkin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> >
> > > in many ways, ecs is a success. ecs is relatively bug-free and is 
> > > good
> at
> > > it's job - creating marked up text in code. it's just that this 
> > > doesn't seem very exciting any more.
> > >
> > > - robert
> >
> > No. We found better ways to solve the problem.
> >
> > When I started out doing java servlets in 1996; Velocity, WebMacro, 
> > JSP, JHTML, GSP, etc...all these technologies either didn't 
> exist or 
> > clearly sucked and there was nothing else to use.
> >
> > After being forced by a client (Novell) to use htmlKona (a 
> commercial 
> > version of ECS created by weblogic), I did the typical thing and 
> > figured that weblogic knew what they were doing and 
> htmlKona must be a 
> > good idea...little did I know... The sad thing is that 
> companies like 
> > BEA/weblogic and Sun continue to push their ideas on people 
> who don't 
> > have
> a
> > clue...not realizing themselves that they don't have a clue 
> > either...EJB
> and
> > JSP is a perfect example of this...
> >
> > Eventually, through much trial and even more error, I 
> figured out that 
> > ECS was the wrong way to go. It is more expensive and more work to 
> > hire java engineers to convert HTML mockups into Java (ECS 
> code) than 
> > it is to hire html designers to do it for you. It is even more of a 
> > pain in the ass to
> go
> > through the process of revising that code at a later date. 
> This is why 
> > ECS as a solution is a failure...there are much better ways now to 
> > solve the problem that didn't exist before. As a project, it was a 
> > great
> success...we
> > developed a really cool piece of code and built a cool 
> community and I
> made
> > some good friends (Stephan and Robert). I also learned a 
> lot about how 
> > to write Java code.
> >
> > Needless to say, back to the original email...objectivehtml 
> will also 
> > be a failure. Contrary to what you believe, I DID look at 
> it and I do 
> > have an understanding of how it works. The failure is not 
> because you 
> > don't write good code, but because I have already seen 
> people do (and 
> > have done
> myself)
> > exactly what you are trying to do and have watched it fail multiple 
> > times.
> I
> > said this originally, but you didn't get it. I also find it 
> terribly 
> > sad
> and
> > pretty uncool that you came here looking to advertise your product. 
> > That
> is
> > like running into a crowded room and yelling out: "Hey, look at me! 
> > I'm better than all of you!".
> >
> > Honestly, there is very little room for innovation in the 
> java webapp 
> > framework space at this point. We have solved nearly every 
> problem out 
> > there. Now, it is a matter of polishing those solutions up and 
> > packaging them for distribution. DVSL will be the next killer thing 
> > and is the last major piece in the puzzle and then from 
> there, it is 
> > just a matter of polish.
> >
> > My suggestion to you is to learn an existing framework and use and 
> > contribute to that instead of trying to re-invent something 
> that has 
> > been invented and failed multiple times now.
> >
> > Good luck.
> >
> > -jon
> >
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
>  [EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > For 
> additional commands, 
> e-mail: 
> > 
> >
> 
> 
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> For 
> additional comma

Re: objective html

[robert burrell donkin]

On Tuesday, December 18, 2001, at 09:45 PM, David Ethell wrote:

> I think you're still missing the point. They aren't saying ECS is a
> success as a platform and objectivehtml won't be. They are saying ECS is
> a success as far as an open source project, but not as a platform for
> developing web apps. I think Jon would say that objectivehtml may be
> every bit as successful of an open-source project as ECS has been and
> maybe more so, but that doesn't change the fact the method of using Java
> objects to code HTML is out and MVC templatized approaches are in. The
> project may be a great implementation of a bad model.

very well put david. i wish that i could have said it that well :)

> Of course, as Jon and others may remember, I'm one of those ones still
> using the bad model even though I know it's the bad model so there will
> likely be some folks who will use objectivehtml. But those folks will be
> the minority compared to an approach like Turbine/Velocity/etc.

- robert


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Re: objective html

[Ka-Hing Cheung]

>
>
>
>Honestly, there is very little room for innovation in the java webapp
>framework space at this point. We have solved nearly every problem out
>there. Now, it is a matter of polishing those solutions up and packaging
>them for distribution. DVSL will be the next killer thing and is the last
>major piece in the puzzle and then from there, it is just a matter of
>polish.
>
what is DVSL??

>


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Re: objective html

[Jon Scott Stevens]

on 12/18/01 3:34 PM, "Ka-Hing Cheung" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> what is DVSL??



-jon

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