objective html

[keithwong]

Hi everyone,

I'm working on an open source project called "Objective html".
Its a toolkit that aims at making html form development similar to the code you would 
write for something like Java-Swing. The toolkit has some similarities with ECS so I 
was hoping some people on this mailing list might find it useful.

Some advantages of Objective HTML are:
- Form data is much easily handled and much more intuitive
- No need to have 3 pieces of code like MVC (jsp, bean, controller),
instead most of your code lies in one class
- Much more Object-Orientated than typical MVC frameworks
- Supports html and xhtml output types
- Less knowledge of html required, most of the messy html code is
abstracted in the Java objects
- Fully open source

I hope some people can try out this toolkit out and let me know if it is useful to 
them and what I can do to improve it.

Check out the website at http://objectivehtml.sourceforge.net

Cheers,
Keith

Re: objective html

[keithwong]

Hi Martin,


> Hi Keith, that sounds great, I've been looking for that exact thing. There
> was a product call Hammock from OOP that did just that. However, they got
> bought out and it's no longer being marketed. Are you familiar with it? If
> not, you might want to take a look at it. It was a slick solution.
>

I've heard of this product Hammock, but don't know anything about it really.
Is there a link you can send me?

> I've been using ECS and the one thing that 's missing is a Layout
Controller
> ala Swing. I will check out your classes and let you know.
>

Thanks Martin, hope to hear from you soon.

Keith

> Regards
>
> Martin Kultermann
> eStar Communications, Inc.
> Office: (312) 275-0294
> Portable: (847) 372-2381
> Mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: keithwong [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 5:31 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: objective html
>
>
> Hi everyone,
>
> I'm working on an open source project called "Objective html".
> Its a toolkit that aims at making html form development similar to the
> code you would write for something like Java-Swing. The toolkit has some
> similarities with ECS so I was hoping some people on this mailing list
> might find it useful.
>
> Some advantages of Objective HTML are:
> - Form data is much easily handled and much more intuitive
> - No need to have 3 pieces of code like MVC (jsp, bean, controller),
> instead most of your code lies in one class
> - Much more Object-Orientated than typical MVC frameworks
> - Supports html and xhtml output types
> - Less knowledge of html required, most of the messy html code is
> abstracted in the Java objects
> - Fully open source
>
> I hope some people can try out this toolkit out and let me know if it is
> useful to them and what I can do to improve it.
>
> Check out the website at http://objectivehtml.sourceforge.net
>
> Cheers,
> Keith
>
>
>
>
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Re: objective html

[keithwong]

Hi Jon,

> on 12/17/01 3:31 AM, "keithwong" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Some advantages of Objective HTML are:
> > - Form data is much easily handled and much more intuitive
>
> Look at Torque in the Jakarta Turbine project. I just reviewed your
> documentation and your project seems to be a combination of wanting to be
> like Torque (but is limited to hard coded Java classes to describe your
form
> logic) and the old SPFC
> project...<http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/java-spfc/> that never went
> anywhere because it was a terrible idea.
>

Hmm.. I had a look and these projects and they don't really seem anything
like mine?
Maybe you should of looked at my project in more detail before forming this
bias opinion, which is evident in your tone.

> > - No need to have 3 pieces of code like MVC (jsp, bean, controller),
> > instead most of your code lies in one class
>
> This is the first time in about 4 years, I have heard someone say that MVC
> is a bad thing. Hmmm...I'm sure you know better than a well known and
> accepted software engineering model.
>

I really appreciate the sarcasm is your comments. First I never said MVC was
bad! You're right that MVC is well known and well accepted... but I'm more
concerned whether people actually like it!? I've never really heard anyone
say they love MVC. maybe you do..

> > - Much more Object-Orientated than typical MVC frameworks
>
> Suuu

More sarcasm... can you tell me why you think having html/jsp tags/scriplets
in a .jsp file is more OO?

>
> > - Supports html and xhtml output types
>
> What about the DBFRJE output type?

more sarcasm i presume..

>
> > - Less knowledge of html required, most of the messy html code is
> > abstracted in the Java objects
>
> We eventually discovered that hiding HTML in Java is bad and that it is
much
> better over the long term to use a tool like Velocity. That is why this
> project is nearly dead and Velocity is moving along at lightening speed.
> Sorry for the bad pun.
>
> This project is one of those lessons that I personally learned from quite
a
> bit.
>

well then main aim of my project isn't too hide html in java code. it was to
provide an easier way developers could access all the components of their
form.

> > - Fully open source
>
> All right!
>
> Anyway, the summary is that what you are creating has already been done
over
> the years by several other people and was discovered to be a very bad
idea.
> It is never a good idea to code that much logic and UI into Java code...it
> is much better to abstract it out into configuration files that make it
easy
> for someone who isn't familiar with the code to figure things out.
>
> It is always sad to see someone work so hard on ideas that have already
been
> hashed over a bunch of times. I'm sure you will learn a lot though. Good
> luck with your project.
>
> -jon

honestly Jon I would of expected a more positive response from you...
obviously you have a lot of resentment in your project not succeeding. If
you honestly had a look at my project you would see that its not really what
you described it to be here.

btw... almost everything in the software would is not a new idea... its
always the implementation that matters.

>
>
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Re: objective html

[keithwong]

>  is there any need to take things *so* personally? 
>

Sorry Rob.. sarcasm doesn't go well with me.

> please take the trouble the find out who you're flaming before starting a
> war that you're going to loose. for example, try www.google.com and search
> for '"jon stevens"+ java'. at the moment, jon's being really pretty
> constructive - if you take the time to discuss things with him in a mature
> way, jon has a huge amount to teach you about writing frameworks.

thanks for google tip.. now i have a picture of Jon, cool..

>
> finally FYI ecs isn't a failed project - just a mature one. there is a
> difference.
>

and these are the words from Jon himself "That is why this project is nearly
dead..." ??




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Re: objective html

[keithwong]

so let me get this right... you guys use some old ideas... its a success...
i use some old ideas.. its a failure
right...

anyway Jon, thanks for you help... you email this time round has been much
more constructive... even though i don't agree with it..

cheers,
Keith

- Original Message -
From: "Jon Scott Stevens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "ecs-user" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 6:24 AM
Subject: Re: objective html


> on 12/18/01 10:46 AM, "robert burrell donkin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
> > in many ways, ecs is a success. ecs is relatively bug-free and is good
at
> > it's job - creating marked up text in code. it's just that this doesn't
> > seem very exciting any more.
> >
> > - robert
>
> No. We found better ways to solve the problem.
>
> When I started out doing java servlets in 1996; Velocity, WebMacro, JSP,
> JHTML, GSP, etc...all these technologies either didn't exist or clearly
> sucked and there was nothing else to use.
>
> After being forced by a client (Novell) to use htmlKona (a commercial
> version of ECS created by weblogic), I did the typical thing and figured
> that weblogic knew what they were doing and htmlKona must be a good
> idea...little did I know... The sad thing is that companies like
> BEA/weblogic and Sun continue to push their ideas on people who don't have
a
> clue...not realizing themselves that they don't have a clue either...EJB
and
> JSP is a perfect example of this...
>
> Eventually, through much trial and even more error, I figured out that ECS
> was the wrong way to go. It is more expensive and more work to hire java
> engineers to convert HTML mockups into Java (ECS code) than it is to hire
> html designers to do it for you. It is even more of a pain in the ass to
go
> through the process of revising that code at a later date. This is why ECS
> as a solution is a failure...there are much better ways now to solve the
> problem that didn't exist before. As a project, it was a great
success...we
> developed a really cool piece of code and built a cool community and I
made
> some good friends (Stephan and Robert). I also learned a lot about how to
> write Java code.
>
> Needless to say, back to the original email...objectivehtml will also be a
> failure. Contrary to what you believe, I DID look at it and I do have an
> understanding of how it works. The failure is not because you don't write
> good code, but because I have already seen people do (and have done
myself)
> exactly what you are trying to do and have watched it fail multiple times.
I
> said this originally, but you didn't get it. I also find it terribly sad
and
> pretty uncool that you came here looking to advertise your product. That
is
> like running into a crowded room and yelling out: "Hey, look at me! I'm
> better than all of you!".
>
> Honestly, there is very little room for innovation in the java webapp
> framework space at this point. We have solved nearly every problem out
> there. Now, it is a matter of polishing those solutions up and packaging
> them for distribution. DVSL will be the next killer thing and is the last
> major piece in the puzzle and then from there, it is just a matter of
> polish.
>
> My suggestion to you is to learn an existing framework and use and
> contribute to that instead of trying to re-invent something that has been
> invented and failed multiple times now.
>
> Good luck.
>
> -jon
>
>
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