Re: grading on the curve
Warren wrote: > > > > > : >One year, I tried letting the homework weigh into the grade (something > > : >like 25-33%) because the previous year's class said there was so much > > : >effort involved that it should be formally rewarded. The TAs spent more > > : >time arguing over grades than they did grading homwork (I > > : >exaggerate...slightly) and it was stressful for student, TAs, and > > : >instructor alike. > > To cut down on time grading but make sure students are attempting homework, I use a > method one of my old professors used...works great. Each class meeting give a "quiz" > at the beginning of class by asking students to turn in a specific homework problem. > I usually pick one that is fairly far along in the homework set...students know this, > but they usually must do the "easy" ones in order to work up to the harder ones. > Sure, some do cheat but they usually fail the inclass tests anyway. > Warren. It depends on the course. I like to have all of my homework graded so that my TAs can inform me of issues that apply to the entire assignment as well as specific questions.
Re: grading on the curve
> > : >One year, I tried letting the homework weigh into the grade (something > : >like 25-33%) because the previous year's class said there was so much > : >effort involved that it should be formally rewarded. The TAs spent more > : >time arguing over grades than they did grading homwork (I > : >exaggerate...slightly) and it was stressful for student, TAs, and > : >instructor alike. To cut down on time grading but make sure students are attempting homework, I use a method one of my old professors used...works great. Each class meeting give a "quiz" at the beginning of class by asking students to turn in a specific homework problem. I usually pick one that is fairly far along in the homework set...students know this, but they usually must do the "easy" ones in order to work up to the harder ones. Sure, some do cheat but they usually fail the inclass tests anyway. Warren.
Re: grading on the curve
On 23 Dec 1999 20:01:02 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Herman Rubin) wrote: > In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, > Rich Ulrich <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: RU> ... > >Actually, I see where I might want to be more arbitrary that just > >changing a cutoff. How do you reward someone who is really trying > >hard, vs. someone who is smart but is blowing it off? HR> > Why should you? The grade should be on knowledge and the ability > to use it, not on effort. If somebody is born with the knowledge, > he deserves the grade and credit. If someone works full time and > cannot do it, he deserves to fail. - okay, that was not very thoughtful, on my part. For math-stats, I agree that "can-or-can't do it" is apt to be the case. There are other courses of study where people have to practice, or cover a lot of details, and not just know how to think. But you should be able to design your tests accordingly. Most of the time. RU> Or, to get > >concrete in another fashion -- the football ratings reward/punish > >teams more for the most recent games, the final games. But I think > >more of my courses (as a student) used equal weighting across a term, > >by halves or thirds, than used a highly weighted Final. Suddenly, I > >see a virtue in having a heavy Final. And in having some subjective > >grading of it (essay questions always gave room to fudge). HR> > I always use a non-linear grading scheme, with the course grade > rarely lower than the grade on the final. This is the best I can > do; we really should be giving comprehensive exams on many courses > well after the end of the courses. - I like that. Again, that may be only a fraction of all courses, but I like it. -- Rich Ulrich, [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pitt.edu/~wpilib/index.html
Re: grading on the curve
From: pbern10 > When I was an undergraduate at Georgia Tech in the late 1970s, an > instructor for an upper level engineering class in which I was enroled > raised cut offs if necessary to attain a normal distribution. We were > *very* annoyed, but at GT in those days, no student would dare complain. I'm curious - did that instructor _call_ it a "normal distribution"? (As cutoffs imply a discrete distribution, it was clearly nothing of the kind. What (s)he was attaining was some specified discrete distribution.) -Robert Dawson
Re: grading on the curve
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Jim Clark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >Hi >On Sat, 25 Dec 1999, Jerry Dallal wrote: >> Herman Rubin ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: >> : What is the purpose of homework? It should be to help learning, >> : and this cannot be combined with being used for a grade. Those >> : problems which do not contribute to learning are a waste of time. >Herman's assertion just seems too strong to me. What is it that >makes it impossible for a task to contribute to both grades and >learning? Does this mean that studying for a test never produces >learning? There is a difference. Nobody grades the studying. However, it is also true that studying for a test often does not produce learning; memorization is the least important part of learning. Doing weak problems to improve technique does little, if anything, to produce learning, and can even detract from it. Doing a problem which one knows how to do never produces learning, but it does contribute heavily to a grade; students should spend no time on such problems. >In teaching honours statistics to psychology students, Why should there be honors (or any other kind) of statistics courses for psychology students? Mathematics and statistics are universal; a decent statistics course, at a given level of mathematical knowledge and ability, does not depend on the major of the student. One can have courses on the application of statistics to psychology, but these should not teach statistics. One reason for this is Rubin's fifth commandment, for people who are both clients and consultants. The implications of this are that the assumptions to be made should come solely from the subject field, and not from statistical convenience. Much of current statistical practice violates this, including converting data to normality. -- This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University. Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558
Re: grading on the curve
Hi On Sat, 25 Dec 1999, Jerry Dallal wrote: > Herman Rubin ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > : What is the purpose of homework? It should be to help learning, > : and this cannot be combined with being used for a grade. Those > : problems which do not contribute to learning are a waste of time. Herman's assertion just seems too strong to me. What is it that makes it impossible for a task to contribute to both grades and learning? Does this mean that studying for a test never produces learning? > I agree completely. In my class, homework gets graded, but students are > told up-front that grades are based on midterm and final examinations with > homework used rarely to decide borderline cases. They are also told that > if they don't do the homework, there's no way they can succeed on the > exams. The purpose of the homework is to give them a chance to > explore and fail without penalty if that's what it takes for them to > master the material. > > One year, I tried letting the homework weigh into the grade (something > like 25-33%) because the previous year's class said there was so much > effort involved that it should be formally rewarded. The TAs spent more > time arguing over grades than they did grading homwork (I > exaggerate...slightly) and it was stressful for student, TAs, and > instructor alike. In teaching honours statistics to psychology students, I have students do 3 largish assignments each of two terms for only 6% each, which thus contributes 36% to their final grade. The assignments are multi-part exercises that involve the analysis of a study using SPSS-generated data and a different seed for each student. I encourage the students to work in groups and change the studies every year (although constructs are largely the same). We have also covered sample studies in lectures and smaller examples in labs. I emphasize to students that the homework assignments are weighted modestly (relative to the amount of work), that their primary purpose is learning and feedback, that even substantial changes in assignment marks have minimal impact (assignments are marked out of 100), and that the two tests (worth 25% each) will involve similar activities on novel data sets. I also tell students at the start of the year that no one will be left "close" to the boundary for the next highest grade (in essence I always adjust students within 1 mark of next grade up). This combination works well for me, judging by feedback at end of course and from students who have gone on to graduate school. Its primary benefits might be to teach students how much effort it takes to learn challenging material, the value of working with other students, and that such effort does pay off. Best wishes Jim James M. Clark (204) 786-9757 Department of Psychology(204) 774-4134 Fax University of Winnipeg 4L05D Winnipeg, Manitoba R3B 2E9 [EMAIL PROTECTED] CANADA http://www.uwinnipeg.ca/~clark
Re: grading on the curve
Jerry Dallal wrote: > I trust my students. They are graduate students in science and policy. > They know the seriousness of misrepresenting someone else's work as their own. > If, at this point in their careers, they are willing to sell their honor > to cheat on an exam, they have bigger problems than I can hope to > solve by giving up the chance to let them show me what they've learned. > I tell them this in class. They agree with me. I don't believe that trust is sufficient. In my opinion you have a responsibility to students who cheat to keep them on task and see to it that they come out of the course knowing the material. You also have a responsibility to the other students in the class who are working hard and doing the work on their own to reward them for their efforts. The proportion of students who cheat varies by geographic region, major, and university, but in my experience there are always some students who cheat. Rather than "trust" your students you might what to do a reality check and see what the frequency is. I normally design one assignment as a "cheating trap"; one with a very high degree of variability, where the probability of identical answers is astronomically small. This helps give me confidence that students are learning the material on their own. Of course this technique does not account for students having their work done by someone else, which is why my grading system is designed so that outside work only accounts for a small proportion of the overall grade, i.e., it's necessary to do the outside work to get an A or B. Exams are designed so that in order to do well you need to have done the outside work (unless you are absolutely brilliant and in that case the question is not relevant). -- http://www.tc.umn.edu/~athe0007
Re: grading on the curve
T.-S. Lim wrote on 12/26/99 3:29 PM: >I don't like take-home exams at all. It's very hard (almost impossible) to >ensure that each student does the exam alone. It's true even for graduate >students (I'm speaking from my own personal experiences). I was stunned as well several years ago to hear of graduate students having parties on exam day to share the effort on a take home exam. The professor discovered it by accident, happened to grade two such exams one after the other and noted all the similar responses. He then compared all the wrong answers and noted the number of identical wrong answers exceed chance. The solution another teacher of statistics uses for testing graduate students to maintain test difficulty, yet allow flexibility in taking the test: He reserves a classroom for the entire day and students may work on the test at any time during that day, may not remove any materials they take into the test until they are finished, though they may come and go as needed for other obligations. Paul
Re: grading on the curve
In article <8464rr$4v1$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, T.-S. Lim <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED] says... >>Dear Dr. Dallal, >>I'm interested in your statement about the 'take home portion of the exam' >>and what weight you place upon an exam that can easily be done with the joint >>help of other individuals. How do you know what portion of the 'take home >>exam' is really being done by the student, ONE HIS OR HER OWN, without >>outside help? >I don't like take-home exams at all. It's very hard (almost impossible) to >ensure that each student does the exam alone. It's true even for graduate >students (I'm speaking from my own personal experiences). It is not that hard. This holds even in places which do not have honor codes. My son told me that as a student he even had timed takehome exams. On the other hand, it might be well to go to mainly takehome exams. We do not need closed-book time-pressure exams; they do a very poor job of measuring either real knowledge instead of trivial pursuit, or the ability to use it in practice. BTW, I never had any problems with those exams. -- This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University. Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558
Re: grading on the curve
In article <843pnn$a2d$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, T.-S. Lim <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED] says... >>Herman Rubin ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: >>: What is the purpose of homework? It should be to help learning, >>: and this cannot be combined with being used for a grade. Those >>: problems which do not contribute to learning are a waste of time. >>I agree completely. In my class, homework gets graded, but students are >>told up-front that grades are based on midterm and final examinations with >>homework used rarely to decide borderline cases. They are also told that >>if they don't do the homework, there's no way they can succeed on the >>exams. The purpose of the homework is to give them a chance to >>explore and fail without penalty if that's what it takes for them to >>master the material. >If homework scores don't matter in grade consideration, why should the students >do them? You can keep telling students that they need to do the homeworks to >pass the exams but the fact is students won't care. I find it silly to require >students to do homeworks but then you don't account for the scores in >determining the final grades. This is the accumulation of "brownie points" attitude which accounts for much of the poor knowledge of students after they have completed the courses. Read the quotation from my posting again; homework should be for learning. Having it used for grades causes students to waste time on easy problems, which they already know how to do, rather than to attack the problems which are at the limits of what they can do. It should be something like what happens on a good oral exam; the proportion of what is correct is essentially constant, but it is which questions are correctly answered which matters. We SHOULD be trying to give the students an education, not a bunch of grades. If the student does not know the concepts years later, that course is essentially a waste. Details can be looked up, and calculations done by machine, and those just taught those are very likely to forget. -- This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University. Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558
Re: grading on the curve
At 07:34 PM 12/26/99 -0400, Richard A. Beldin, Ph.D. wrote: >The only take home exam I ever felt comfortable with was in a business calculus >course. I assigned each student a different polynomial of degree 3 or 4. one can easily do this for something like stat ... i do have large data files that students download AND then take random subsets of data ... all students answers have to be different ... BUT, that still does not mean that they will not get any help ... THOUGH i am sure that it discourages more "help" compared to students having to all use the same identical data set == dennis roberts, penn state university educational psychology, 8148632401 http://roberts.ed.psu.edu/users/droberts/droberts.htm
Re: grading on the curve
My professors at Michigan were also fair. Probably some of the same ones as yours. However, my students have not always been fair - to themselves. Last term (my last term, ending in June), I had one student in precalculus who reported that he had failed the course four times (not unusual, there were a half a dozen in the same boat). This time, he changed his tactics. He decided to actually do the exercises! Guess what? He earned a B! One of my favorite success stories. It makes the point that like the old adage, "You can take the kid to school but you can't make him learn"! "J. Williams" wrote: > I wonder if all of us have experienced angst in assigning marks that can > affect the academic careers of our students. I always took it very seriously > and was concerned about the student who fell below some arbitrary cutoff I > ordained. I started teaching back in the '60s and have seen the rise of > "grade inflation" and extraneous pressures to "equalize." My thinking now is > that we tend to treat our students in the manner we were treated as undergrad > and graduate students. My professors back at Michigan in the "Olden Days" > were fair to me...more than fair. The least I can do is treat my own students > similarly. This thread's diversity of thinking attests to the differing > perceptions of what is fair and to what constituencies? What is right for > employers? What is correct for society? What's best for the individual > student? At the very least, grading is not taken lightly by the various > respondents. I'm not so old I can't remember the pressures on me to get "A's" > and to look goodand keep my ego boosted.
Re: grading on the curve
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: : Dear Dr. Dallal, : I'm interested in your statement about the 'take home portion of the exam' : and what weight you place upon an exam that can easily be done with the joint : help of other individuals. How do you know what portion of the 'take home : exam' is really being done by the student, ONE HIS OR HER OWN, without : outside help? I trust my students. They are graduate students in science and policy. They know the seriousness of misrepresenting someone else's work as their own. If, at this point in their careers, they are willing to sell their honor to cheat on an exam, they have bigger problems than I can hope to solve by giving up the chance to let them show me what they've learned. I tell them this in class. They agree with me. I don't see how to test them fairly without a take home portion. The point of the course is to get them to analyze data. It takes time, it takes thought. As part of the exam, I give them one or two data sets and up to a week to analyze them. And it feels *so* good to see them take a data set, display it, recognize outliers that might destroy an analysis performed by rote, and so on ... ! : If you look at the mailing groups I think you will find one that allows : students to post questions to the group (obviously homework questions) and : then various individuals reply by doing the homework. I'm sure some (many) : students simply hand in the solutions acquired on the internet as their own : work. It's hard to get someone to analyze your data for you, but, regardless, I trust my students as they do me. : Recently I spoke with a high school teacher who would not accept a report : from one of her students because it was copied, word-for-word, from the : internet. The student objected and the parents brought pressure on the : principal. To make a long story short, the principal instructed the teacher : to give the student credit for the work, the credit was for 'effort' in what : was an obvious case of plagerism. Here, the student might be expelled. : How can you give credit to someone for 'out of class test taking'? It must be my particular set of circumstances (the program, the students). : Enjoy the Holiday Season You, too!
Re: grading on the curve
The only take home exam I ever felt comfortable with was in a business calculus course. I assigned each student a different polynomial of degree 3 or 4. Their assignment was to obtain the definite integral between a and b (given constants) by each of four methods with no more than 10% difference among the solutions. The methods were symbolic integration, graphical integation, Simpson, and trapezoidal numerical integration. There was only one eager beaver who actually solved someone else's problem as well as her own. :-) "T.-S. Lim" wrote: > In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED] says... > > > >Dear Dr. Dallal, > > > >I'm interested in your statement about the 'take home portion of the exam' > >and what weight you place upon an exam that can easily be done with the joint > >help of other individuals. How do you know what portion of the 'take home > >exam' is really being done by the student, ONE HIS OR HER OWN, without > >outside help? > > I don't like take-home exams at all. It's very hard (almost impossible) to > ensure that each student does the exam alone. It's true even for graduate > students (I'm speaking from my own personal experiences). > > > > -- > Tjen-Sien Lim > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > www.Recursive-Partitioning.com > > Get your free Web-based email! http://recursive-partitioning.zzn.com
Re: grading on the curve
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED] says... > >Dear Dr. Dallal, > >I'm interested in your statement about the 'take home portion of the exam' >and what weight you place upon an exam that can easily be done with the joint >help of other individuals. How do you know what portion of the 'take home >exam' is really being done by the student, ONE HIS OR HER OWN, without >outside help? I don't like take-home exams at all. It's very hard (almost impossible) to ensure that each student does the exam alone. It's true even for graduate students (I'm speaking from my own personal experiences). -- Tjen-Sien Lim [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.Recursive-Partitioning.com Get your free Web-based email! http://recursive-partitioning.zzn.com
Re: grading on the curve
Dear Dr. Dallal, I'm interested in your statement about the 'take home portion of the exam' and what weight you place upon an exam that can easily be done with the joint help of other individuals. How do you know what portion of the 'take home exam' is really being done by the student, ONE HIS OR HER OWN, without outside help? If you look at the mailing groups I think you will find one that allows students to post questions to the group (obviously homework questions) and then various individuals reply by doing the homework. I'm sure some (many) students simply hand in the solutions acquired on the internet as their own work. Recently I spoke with a high school teacher who would not accept a report from one of her students because it was copied, word-for-word, from the internet. The student objected and the parents brought pressure on the principal. To make a long story short, the principal instructed the teacher to give the student credit for the work, the credit was for 'effort' in what was an obvious case of plagerism. How can you give credit to someone for 'out of class test taking'? Enjoy the Holiday Season Dr. Robert C. Knodt 4949 Samish Way, #31 Bellingham, WA 98226 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: grading on the curve
I wonder if all of us have experienced angst in assigning marks that can affect the academic careers of our students. I always took it very seriously and was concerned about the student who fell below some arbitrary cutoff I ordained. I started teaching back in the '60s and have seen the rise of "grade inflation" and extraneous pressures to "equalize." My thinking now is that we tend to treat our students in the manner we were treated as undergrad and graduate students. My professors back at Michigan in the "Olden Days" were fair to me...more than fair. The least I can do is treat my own students similarly. This thread's diversity of thinking attests to the differing perceptions of what is fair and to what constituencies? What is right for employers? What is correct for society? What's best for the individual student? At the very least, grading is not taken lightly by the various respondents. I'm not so old I can't remember the pressures on me to get "A's" and to look goodand keep my ego boosted.
Re: grading on the curve
dennis roberts ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: : At 11:09 PM 12/25/99 +, Jerry Dallal wrote: : >I agree about respect. Respect and grades are two different things. : >In graduate school, at least under my system, an A means this student : >has given evidence of future success as a doctoral degree candidate. : even on christmas day ... after eating WAY too much ... i challenge this : statement. i doubt very seriously that the A means that the student WILL be : successful in becoming a doctoral candidate : ... it could be a very SMALL and partial indication of what the student : might do later ... I think you're reading too much into my post. I said "evidence". Perhaps, I should have said "some evidence". The question arose "why grade on performance rather than effort?" This is an old question. During the 60s, it was responsible for the Pass/Fail system of grading. So, why are grades necessary? One way they are still very important is for advising students whether to continue their studies, in particular, whether to go on for the doctoral degree. A string of As suggests the knowledge and ability are there. Graduate Cs are warning signs that must not be ignored. They must be addressed. There could have been personal problems that affected performance. The course might be irrelevant to a student's area of research. But it is unfair to students to allow them to invest years of their lives in a quest for which there is strong evidence that they could be unsuccessful. It is unfair to the system because of the blow to overall morale that occurs when things start falling apart. Letter grades can be used to help guide potential candidates only if they are based on accomplishment rather than effort. Besides, students from my university have a well-deserved reputation for giving their best effort all the time. There's the old joke about asking a soldier to jump and getting the reply, "How high"? Here, students don't ask. They jump *as high as they can*...every time. This is especially true in my progam, where students are paying a great deal of tuition for the skills to follow certain, low-paying, low-profile but highly satisfying careers. You have to be dedicated to your field to come here. They come prequalified in the effort category. I feel honored to teach them. Many students do more for humanity in a summer intership than I will ever accomplish in a lifetime. I tell myself I earn small points by making them more effective at what they do. Still, some are better suited to go on for the doctoral degree than others. Part of my job is to send the right signal from my perspective.
Re: grading on the curve
dennis roberts wrote on 12/22/99 2:48 PM: >in any case ... instructors are suppose to give students some reasonable >description of the grading system used ... at the BEginning of a course ... >which i assume would include some facimile of a grading scale ... or what >one has to do to earn certain grades ... and in this context, i would think >that anyone who might 'consider" RAISING cutoffs so that FEWER students get >higher grades ... would be challenged from students .. as this appears to >border on unethical practice ... When I was an undergraduate at Georgia Tech in the late 1970s, an instructor for an upper level engineering class in which I was enroled raised cut offs if necessary to attain a normal distribution. We were *very* annoyed, but at GT in those days, no student would dare complain. Paul
Re: grading on the curve
T.-S. Lim ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: : If homework scores don't matter in grade consideration, why should the students : do them? To learn. : You can keep telling students that they need to do the homeworks to : pass the exams but the fact is students won't care. Most students do most homeworks. : I find it silly to require : students to do homeworks but then you don't account for the scores in : determining the final grades. Much of it is motivation. My students know that examination questions will be similar to homeworks. They're know if they don't bother analyzing data sets for homework, they're going to have difficulty analyzing the ones they're given for the takehome portion of the exam. Homework figures into the final grade but indirectly through the experience they've gained. I find this better than by awarding a numerical score that fails to reflect the additional learning that takes place during the in class the occurs when the assignements are due. : >One year, I tried letting the homework weigh into the grade (something : >like 25-33%) because the previous year's class said there was so much : >effort involved that it should be formally rewarded. The TAs spent more : >time arguing over grades than they did grading homwork (I : >exaggerate...slightly) and it was stressful for student, TAs, and : >instructor alike. : Perhaps your TAs are just too strict or don't know how to deal with students. Not at all. I have three requirements of TAs: interest in the subject, good performance as a student, and the ability to work well with others. Of these, the third is the most important. In fact, it's a lock-out spec (if you don't have it, you can't assist me). Students perseverated over their numerical grades and kept arguing for partial credit, etc. The more you teach, the more you'll find one of the most important factors that influences learning is morale. Concern over weekly homework grades got in the way. Students were anxious about getting a perfect score every week and morale suffered. It didn't matter that they finally learned the material; what mattered was that they felt they couldn't make a mistake while they were learning.
Re: grading on the curve
At 11:09 PM 12/25/99 +, Jerry Dallal wrote: >I agree about respect. Respect and grades are two different things. >In graduate school, at least under my system, an A means this student >has given evidence of future success as a doctoral degree candidate. even on christmas day ... after eating WAY too much ... i challenge this statement. i doubt very seriously that the A means that the student WILL be successful in becoming a doctoral candidate ... UNLESS of course the obtaining of becoming a doctoral candidate is achieved after earning a grade of A in THIS particular course ... we all know that becoming a doctoral degree candidate ... is dependent on a variety of skills and experiences and, one course AT most (stat or any other course) might tell you something about ONE skill that a student might have so, in that sense ... it could be a very SMALL and partial indication of what the student might do later ... thus the claim that getting an A means you will achieve doctoral candidacy and less that A means you won't ... cannot be empircially validated in graduate school with current evidence ... unless jerry has some == dennis roberts, penn state university educational psychology, 8148632401 http://roberts.ed.psu.edu/users/droberts/droberts.htm
Re: grading on the curve
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED] says... > >Herman Rubin ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > >: What is the purpose of homework? It should be to help learning, >: and this cannot be combined with being used for a grade. Those >: problems which do not contribute to learning are a waste of time. > > >I agree completely. In my class, homework gets graded, but students are >told up-front that grades are based on midterm and final examinations with >homework used rarely to decide borderline cases. They are also told that >if they don't do the homework, there's no way they can succeed on the >exams. The purpose of the homework is to give them a chance to >explore and fail without penalty if that's what it takes for them to >master the material. If homework scores don't matter in grade consideration, why should the students do them? You can keep telling students that they need to do the homeworks to pass the exams but the fact is students won't care. I find it silly to require students to do homeworks but then you don't account for the scores in determining the final grades. >One year, I tried letting the homework weigh into the grade (something >like 25-33%) because the previous year's class said there was so much >effort involved that it should be formally rewarded. The TAs spent more >time arguing over grades than they did grading homwork (I >exaggerate...slightly) and it was stressful for student, TAs, and >instructor alike. Perhaps your TAs are just too strict or don't know how to deal with students. -- Tjen-Sien Lim [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.Recursive-Partitioning.com Get your free Web-based email! http://recursive-partitioning.zzn.com
Re: grading on the curve
a ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: : I respect students who try hard and give their best. I have no respect for : smart students who don't live up to their talents. If a student works full time : and still can't do it, I'll never ever fail him/her. To me, the most important : thing is that you give your best. I agree about respect. Respect and grades are two different things. In graduate school, at least under my system, an A means this student has given evidence of future success as a doctoral degree candidate. C means a student should not be admitted to candidacy unless there are extremely extenuating circumstances to account for the grade. It is unfair to the student and the system to encourage with passing grades those whose performace indicates they don't belong in a particular program or area of study. If we're talking about a last gasp non-major distribution requirement for a student to finish an undergraduate program, I'm inclined to lean more toward D for door-prize for a *sincere best-effort*, but it's been almost 20 years since that's been an issue for me.
Re: grading on the curve
Herman Rubin ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: : What is the purpose of homework? It should be to help learning, : and this cannot be combined with being used for a grade. Those : problems which do not contribute to learning are a waste of time. I agree completely. In my class, homework gets graded, but students are told up-front that grades are based on midterm and final examinations with homework used rarely to decide borderline cases. They are also told that if they don't do the homework, there's no way they can succeed on the exams. The purpose of the homework is to give them a chance to explore and fail without penalty if that's what it takes for them to master the material. One year, I tried letting the homework weigh into the grade (something like 25-33%) because the previous year's class said there was so much effort involved that it should be formally rewarded. The TAs spent more time arguing over grades than they did grading homwork (I exaggerate...slightly) and it was stressful for student, TAs, and instructor alike.
Re: grading on the curve
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Peter Westfall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >Herman Rubin wrote: >> In article <83umq6$75s$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, a <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >In article <83ugke$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >says... >> >>In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, >> >>Rich Ulrich <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >>>On 22 Dec 1999 14:47:38 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (dennis roberts) wrote: >> >>>Actually, I see where I might want to be more arbitrary that just >> >>>changing a cutoff. How do you reward someone who is really trying >> >>>hard, vs. someone who is smart but is blowing it off? >> >>Why should you? The grade should be on knowledge and the ability >> >>to use it, not on effort. If somebody is born with the knowledge, >> >>he deserves the grade and credit. If someone works full time and >> >>cannot do it, he deserves to fail. >> >Hm, just because a student is born with the knowledge, he/she should deserve >> >the grade and credit although he/she didn't do well in the class??? >> What is the purpose of a grade? The legitimate purposes are to >> tell the world what the student knows and can do, and to advise >> the student on the same matter. One can have the latter without >> the former; I believe in comprehensive examinations to provide >> information to others. [Quoted material reformatted for legibility.] >Your comment suggests that our primary job as educators is to rank >the students. I disagree. Our primary job to educate the >students. I have never stated that ranking is legitimate; I believe that class rank, etc., should be prohibited. And I agree that we should educate the students; this education means the imparting of the understanding of subject matter and the ability to use it. The evaluation should be absolute, not in any way relative. An undesirable but probably necessary aspect of this is to provide the information about how well the above has been accomplished. Major universities do not need graduate schools to provide information about how good their PhDs are; they can assess this themselves for the small number of people they are hiring. Good universities COULD assess applicants for student positions, but need better information at present, as the costs of assessment are too high. The presently available information is atrocious. >The latter purpose (advising) is indeed legitimate. The former (tell >the world what they know) is what we use in our current educational >system, and its value as a predictive tool is questionable. In the >case of the student who slacks off and gets an "A", the predictive >use of the "A" is highly questionable. A future employer might see >the "A" as indicative of diligence, hard work, when such is clearly >not the case. >If the student already knows the material and slacks off through my >class, I would be happy to tell the world that this student is not >someone you want (to hire, to be in your class, to work with). My >advice to such a student would be not to take my class, especially if >their thought is to receive an easy "A". On the other hand, I would advise the employer to hire the one who understands the material, unless the job is essentially routine. The one who works hard rarely does; he is not going to come up with a better way, or do well at something out of the ordinary. Your approach may be good for a trade school, but not a university. It is not a matter of taking a course to receive an easy grade; we should do our best to eliminate this, by giving credit without taking the course. But there is no reason a student should do any "work" in a course beyond that needed for understanding the material, with the minimum necessary added to demonstrate the understanding. Suppose a student needs a few items from a course, and these are not well presented in books; this is often the case. That student should "take" the course, but should do little work. Or the student had no idea how easy a course was, or it may even be the case that a faster-paced course was not available; that student should not do any more work than is needed to learn the material. It would be better to eliminate course grades, or even courses taken, from a student's record, and give degrees only on appropriately designed comprehensive examinations. These need not, and probably should not, be the usual type of closed-book time-pressure examinations, but tests of whether what has been learned can be used, much in novel situations, and under reasonable conditions. >Related to this discussion is the well-documented low predictive >ability of SAT scores. Use of such tools (grades, SAT scores) that >have low predictive ability to make decisions that affect >individuals' lives amounts to little more than a lottery, mentioned >previously in this discussion group by Eric Bohlman. If the universities had any reasonable way of assessing candidates for admission, the SAT would be drop
Re: grading on the curve
it is one thing to try to accurately assess and indicate what someone knows or can do, this is not too difficult to accomplish ... but it is quite another thing to give a grade .. which is a VALUE judgement as to the "worth" of a performance ... while we have decent tools to indicate the former, it is apparent that society still has not quite figured out about WHAT the latter should represent ... level of capability? current performance? effort? potential? mixture? this is why grading is sort of a crap shoot ... since there really are NO clear rules and definitions ... then this translates into unclear procedures for doing so in real practice ... and, college catalogs don't help ... have a look at where grades are discussed and see if that helps much i doubt it == dennis roberts, penn state university educational psychology, 8148632401 http://roberts.ed.psu.edu/users/droberts/droberts.htm
Re: grading on the curve
Herman Rubin wrote: > In article <83umq6$75s$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, a <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >In article <83ugke$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >says... > > >>In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, > >>Rich Ulrich <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >>>On 22 Dec 1999 14:47:38 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (dennis roberts) wrote: > > > > >>>Actually, I see where I might want to be more arbitrary that just > >>>changing a cutoff. How do you reward someone who is really trying > >>>hard, vs. someone who is smart but is blowing it off? > > >>Why should you? The grade should be on knowledge and the ability > >>to use it, not on effort. If somebody is born with the knowledge, > >>he deserves the grade and credit. If someone works full time and > >>cannot do it, he deserves to fail. > > >Hm, just because a student is born with the knowledge, he/she should deserve > >the grade and credit although he/she didn't do well in the class??? > > What is the purpose of a grade? The legitimate purposes are to > tell the world what the student knows and can do, and to advise > the student on the same matter. One can have the latter without > the former; I believe in comprehensive examinations to provide > information to others. > Your comment suggests that our primary job as educators is to rank the students. I disagree. Our primary job to educate the students. The latter purpose (advising) is indeed legitimate. The former (tell the world what they know) is what we use in our current educational system, and its value as a predictive tool is questionable. In the case of the student who slacks off and gets an "A", the predictive use of the "A" is highly questionable. A future employer might see the "A" as indicative of diligence, hard work, when such is clearly not the case. If the student already knows the material and slacks off through my class, I would be happy to tell the world that this student is not someone you want (to hire, to be in your class, to work with). My advice to such a student would be not to take my class, especially if their thought is to receive an easy "A". Related to this discussion is the well-documented low predictive ability of SAT scores. Use of such tools (grades, SAT scores) that have low predictive ability to make decisions that affect individuals' lives amounts to little more than a lottery, mentioned previously in this discussion group by Eric Bohlman. There have been at least three empirical examples presented in the current discussion that suggest that the use of ranking is detrimental - one my example about Texas Instruments, another a study on how ranking stifled creativity in art students (see Steve Simon's post), a third mentioned in Eric Bohlman's post. What empirical evidence is there to the contrary? > > >I respect students who try hard and give their best. I have no respect for > >smart students who don't live up to their talents. If a student works full time > >and still can't do it, I'll never ever fail him/her. To me, the most important > >thing is that you give your best. > > This might be from the standpoint of socialist ethics, but not > from the standpoint of education. Especially if grades are not > public knowledge, one is doing a service by failing a student > who is unable to grasp the material. Better yet, such a student should be properly advised. Peter
Re: grading on the curve
In article <83umq6$75s$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, a <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >In article <83ugke$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED] >says... >>In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, >>Rich Ulrich <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>>On 22 Dec 1999 14:47:38 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (dennis roberts) wrote: >>>Actually, I see where I might want to be more arbitrary that just >>>changing a cutoff. How do you reward someone who is really trying >>>hard, vs. someone who is smart but is blowing it off? >>Why should you? The grade should be on knowledge and the ability >>to use it, not on effort. If somebody is born with the knowledge, >>he deserves the grade and credit. If someone works full time and >>cannot do it, he deserves to fail. >Hm, just because a student is born with the knowledge, he/she should deserve >the grade and credit although he/she didn't do well in the class??? What is the purpose of a grade? The legitimate purposes are to tell the world what the student knows and can do, and to advise the student on the same matter. One can have the latter without the former; I believe in comprehensive examinations to provide information to others. >I respect students who try hard and give their best. I have no respect for >smart students who don't live up to their talents. If a student works full time >and still can't do it, I'll never ever fail him/her. To me, the most important >thing is that you give your best. This might be from the standpoint of socialist ethics, but not from the standpoint of education. Especially if grades are not public knowledge, one is doing a service by failing a student who is unable to grasp the material. The current system is too much of pass them up the line, adjusting to the level of those in the classroom, and reducing the level of the education received by almost everyone. -- This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University. Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558
Re: grading on the curve
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Rich Ulrich <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >On 22 Dec 1999 14:47:38 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (dennis roberts) wrote: >Actually, I see where I might want to be more arbitrary that just >changing a cutoff. How do you reward someone who is really trying >hard, vs. someone who is smart but is blowing it off? Why should you? The grade should be on knowledge and the ability to use it, not on effort. If somebody is born with the knowledge, he deserves the grade and credit. If someone works full time and cannot do it, he deserves to fail. Or, to get >concrete in another fashion -- the football ratings reward/punish >teams more for the most recent games, the final games. But I think >more of my courses (as a student) used equal weighting across a term, >by halves or thirds, than used a highly weighted Final. Suddenly, I >see a virtue in having a heavy Final. And in having some subjective >grading of it (essay questions always gave room to fudge). I always use a non-linear grading scheme, with the course grade rarely lower than the grade on the final. This is the best I can do; we really should be giving comprehensive exams on many courses well after the end of the courses. ... >In chemistry, everyone noticed, right off, that the ridiculously >difficult homework assignments, due each Monday, were weighted *zero* >points in the total; that certainly cut down on the amount of papers >that the TAs had to look at. -- There was an object-lesson implicit >there, I am sure, but I am less sure what that lesson was. What is the purpose of homework? It should be to help learning, and this cannot be combined with being used for a grade. Those problems which do not contribute to learning are a waste of time. -- This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University. Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558
Re: grading on the curve
Herman -- I liked your last sentence indicating that MASTERY IS IMPORTANT!! " I do not use a linear grading method; fortunately, early in my teaching, I had a student put it all together on the final." ^ Joe * Joe Ward Health Careers High School * * 167 East Arrowhead Dr 4646 Hamilton Wolfe * * San Antonio, TX 78228-2402San Antonio, TX 78229 * * Phone: 210-433-6575 Phone: 210-617-5400 * * Fax: 210-433-2828Fax: 210-617-5423 * * [EMAIL PROTECTED] * * http://www.ijoa.org/joeward/wardindex.html * - Original Message - From: Herman Rubin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, December 23, 1999 7:23 AM Subject: Re: grading on the curve | In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, | dennis roberts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: | >this discussion is interesting ... | | >there seems to be TWO general kinds of "grading" on the curve ... it would | >be interesting to try to "estimate" how frequently each happens ... | | >1. LOWERing cutoffs ... thus, INcreasing the #s of those getting various | >higher grades | | >2. making cutoffs such that the distribution of GRADES resembles a normal | >distribution | | >i assume that #1 occurs much more frequently and, from my perspective, | >there is NO good rationale for doing #2 ... unless one assumes that ability | >within a class is normally distributed AND ... and far more crucial ... | >that achievement SHOULD resemble the distribution of ability ... | | Something like #2 occurs far too often. But either one of these | defeats the value of a grade in indicating anything about what | the student has accomplished. | | NOTHING is normally distributed, so grades should not be. | | Also, classes are not equal; even different sections of the same | course in the same term are not equal. Trying a different approach | to teaching may well change the distribution of the amount of | knowledge, and thus should change the distribution of grades. | | Only absolute grading is a meaningful assessment of what the | student has accomplished. Relative grading almost forces | levels to go down. The American undergraduate grades in the | strong mathematics courses preparing for graduate work are | essentially meaningless at this time. | | >in any case ... instructors are suppose to give students some reasonable | >description of the grading system used ... at the BEginning of a course ... | >which i assume would include some facimile of a grading scale ... or what | >one has to do to earn certain grades ... and in this context, i would think | >that anyone who might 'consider" RAISING cutoffs so that FEWER students get | >higher grades ... would be challenged from students .. as this appears to | >border on unethical practice ... | | One is not required to go that far. Saying that you will give | your best assessment of what the student knows and can do, based | on scores given on various items, meets the legal requirements. | I do not use a linear grading method; fortunately, early in my | teaching, I had a student put it all together on the final. | | | >At 02:32 PM 12/22/99 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | >> I never, as a teacher, used any curving | >>procedure to lower students grades! | -- | This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views | are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University. | Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399 | [EMAIL PROTECTED] Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558 |
Re: grading on the curve
On 22 Dec 1999 14:47:38 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (dennis roberts) wrote: [ ... TWO general kinds of "grading" on the curve ... ... how frequently each happens ...] > 1. LOWERing cutoffs ... thus, INcreasing the #s of those getting various > higher grades I have never had the responsibility, but as a statistician, I don't think I could swallow the prospect of a strict numeric translation, starting from "assignments" alone, when I consider the grades fading off into Ds and Fs. If someone forced me to do that, I guess I would try to stick in a component that measured "classroom participation". Or I would have to try to figure a way to give bonus-points. Or something. Actually, I see where I might want to be more arbitrary that just changing a cutoff. How do you reward someone who is really trying hard, vs. someone who is smart but is blowing it off? Or, to get concrete in another fashion -- the football ratings reward/punish teams more for the most recent games, the final games. But I think more of my courses (as a student) used equal weighting across a term, by halves or thirds, than used a highly weighted Final. Suddenly, I see a virtue in having a heavy Final. And in having some subjective grading of it (essay questions always gave room to fudge). > 2. making cutoffs such that the distribution of GRADES resembles a normal > distribution My Dad mentioned a professor (chemistry, possibly) from a half-century ago who he said was labeled "Square-root Benson" because that was the number of A's he was willing to give. So you would prefer taking a small class from him (9, giving 3) or, better, a tutorial (4, giving 2). That was not "normal" and I have trouble imagining anyone in a long time who would get away with giving as many F's as A's. Especially with the notoriety of "grade inflation." The only classes I had where I remember an announcement about grading on a curve were the freshman classes I had a Rice, and that was definitely the case in physics and chemistry. There were several hundred in each class. The course components added to 1000 (350 points total for Labs, 100 for this test, etc.) and an A might have been translated from 700. I am pretty positive there were more A's than F's. There were a whole lot of C's. How I interpret their attitude: "It is an artificial standard, which is undesirable for various reasons, to set up enough EASY questions so that some desired fraction will hit 90% correct." In chemistry, everyone noticed, right off, that the ridiculously difficult homework assignments, due each Monday, were weighted *zero* points in the total; that certainly cut down on the amount of papers that the TAs had to look at. -- There was an object-lesson implicit there, I am sure, but I am less sure what that lesson was. -- Rich Ulrich, [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pitt.edu/~wpilib/index.html
Re: grading on the curve
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, dennis roberts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >this discussion is interesting ... >there seems to be TWO general kinds of "grading" on the curve ... it would >be interesting to try to "estimate" how frequently each happens ... >1. LOWERing cutoffs ... thus, INcreasing the #s of those getting various >higher grades >2. making cutoffs such that the distribution of GRADES resembles a normal >distribution >i assume that #1 occurs much more frequently and, from my perspective, >there is NO good rationale for doing #2 ... unless one assumes that ability >within a class is normally distributed AND ... and far more crucial ... >that achievement SHOULD resemble the distribution of ability ... Something like #2 occurs far too often. But either one of these defeats the value of a grade in indicating anything about what the student has accomplished. NOTHING is normally distributed, so grades should not be. Also, classes are not equal; even different sections of the same course in the same term are not equal. Trying a different approach to teaching may well change the distribution of the amount of knowledge, and thus should change the distribution of grades. Only absolute grading is a meaningful assessment of what the student has accomplished. Relative grading almost forces levels to go down. The American undergraduate grades in the strong mathematics courses preparing for graduate work are essentially meaningless at this time. >in any case ... instructors are suppose to give students some reasonable >description of the grading system used ... at the BEginning of a course ... >which i assume would include some facimile of a grading scale ... or what >one has to do to earn certain grades ... and in this context, i would think >that anyone who might 'consider" RAISING cutoffs so that FEWER students get >higher grades ... would be challenged from students .. as this appears to >border on unethical practice ... One is not required to go that far. Saying that you will give your best assessment of what the student knows and can do, based on scores given on various items, meets the legal requirements. I do not use a linear grading method; fortunately, early in my teaching, I had a student put it all together on the final. >At 02:32 PM 12/22/99 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >> I never, as a teacher, used any curving >>procedure to lower students grades! -- This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University. Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558
grading on the curve
this discussion is interesting ... there seems to be TWO general kinds of "grading" on the curve ... it would be interesting to try to "estimate" how frequently each happens ... 1. LOWERing cutoffs ... thus, INcreasing the #s of those getting various higher grades 2. making cutoffs such that the distribution of GRADES resembles a normal distribution i assume that #1 occurs much more frequently and, from my perspective, there is NO good rationale for doing #2 ... unless one assumes that ability within a class is normally distributed AND ... and far more crucial ... that achievement SHOULD resemble the distribution of ability ... in any case ... instructors are suppose to give students some reasonable description of the grading system used ... at the BEginning of a course ... which i assume would include some facimile of a grading scale ... or what one has to do to earn certain grades ... and in this context, i would think that anyone who might 'consider" RAISING cutoffs so that FEWER students get higher grades ... would be challenged from students .. as this appears to border on unethical practice ... At 02:32 PM 12/22/99 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > I never, as a teacher, used any curving >procedure to lower students grades! == dennis roberts, penn state university educational psychology, 8148632401 http://roberts.ed.psu.edu/users/droberts/droberts.htm
