Re: over and above
In article 123901bf9599$bc4078e0$[EMAIL PROTECTED], Robert Dawson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Herman Rubin wrote: This might possibly be the case for the weak students, but not for the strong ones. It is the concepts which are the most important part, and concepts need little, if any, practice and Muriel Strand responded: i'm not sure the statement below is true for this strong student. when it comes to applying the concepts, you do need to know them inside and out and much of that intuition (for me) came from reams of homework problems. I'm with Muriel on this one. Even when you *think* you understand a concept, trying to *use* it is a (the?) acid test of whether you do. Even if you really do understand it as soon as you read it, there is always the question - if nothing else - "how would this work for me in practice?" that is best answered by rolling up the sleeves getting your fingers dirty right up to the elbows. The strongest students have the most to gain by this, as they will develop a far deeper understanding. As I keep stating, a concept is not understood unless it can be used. If you cannot use it in situations differing from the examples and exercises, you do not understand it. -- This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University. Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558 === This list is open to everyone. Occasionally, less thoughtful people send inappropriate messages. Please DO NOT COMPLAIN TO THE POSTMASTER about these messages because the postmaster has no way of controlling them, and excessive complaints will result in termination of the list. For information about this list, including information about the problem of inappropriate messages and information about how to unsubscribe, please see the web page at http://jse.stat.ncsu.edu/ ===
Re: over and above
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], Muriel Strand [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i'm not sure the statement below is true for this strong student. when it comes to applying the concepts, you do need to know them inside and out and much of that intuition (for me) came from reams of homework problems. Herman Rubin wrote: This might possibly be the case for the weak students, but not for the strong ones. It is the concepts which are the most important part, and concepts need little, if any, practice. Concepts are not learned by memorizing words. They are not learned until they can be applied to novel problems. Students, not most of the bodies we find in our classes, realize that they need to do problems until they can do this. They will do too many. But they should not do the reams of too simple problems. -- This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University. Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558 === This list is open to everyone. Occasionally, less thoughtful people send inappropriate messages. Please DO NOT COMPLAIN TO THE POSTMASTER about these messages because the postmaster has no way of controlling them, and excessive complaints will result in termination of the list. For information about this list, including information about the problem of inappropriate messages and information about how to unsubscribe, please see the web page at http://jse.stat.ncsu.edu/ ===
Re: over and above
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], dennis roberts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There is a conflict between practice and experience in that a goal of practice is to reach the point where you carry out the procedure WITHOUT THINKING ABOUT THE UNDERLYING CONCEPTS OR PRINCIPLES. It beomes automated and brainless, a skill of the fingers (or toes). For that reason, I think practice should be dispensed only with a doctor's prescription, AFTER one has shown mastery of the concepts. In pracitce our education system tends to work the other way around -- try to get everybody to go through the motions and hope a few will see the reasons. i would point out however that the notion that we apply principles or concepts without thinking is precisely what we really want ... for example, a student comes in with some statistical question ... or idea about a research project ... and, WITHOUT sitting there 'thinking', you as the expert have ready made questions ... suggestions ... paths or leads for the student to follow ... THIS is what we do BECAUSE we have practiced these 'ideas' over and over again. we don't 'think' when we now apply what we have learned ... It is OK to have questions ready, but watch out for the rest. I am scared about engineering students knowing how to solve certain types of differential equations, because they will tend to formulate their problems using only those differential equations. We have a similar situation with students using linear regression where it is inappropriate, or the even worse transforming to normality. Whatever relationships are present, they are likely to be destroyed by such methods. I append my five commandments, with some comments, at the end of this posting. think about grading papers ... while students struggle with DOING the paper or project .. the GOOD faculty member has no such problem examining and finding flaws and good points ... it comes automatically BECAUSE we have done it a 1000 times ... this is not bad ... it is good. for, if we did not have that 'developed' level of skill ... we would take FORever to grade papers ... we would have to RElearn on the spot ... each and every aspect of what we are expecting from paper and project work ... As long as the student is ONLY doing those things which we have seen on papers, or which we have reasoned students will do, this is fine. But if it looks different, make sure it is wrong before marking it wrong, even if you have done it thousands of times before. What has been learned can be used. For the client: 1. Thou shalt know that thou must make assumptions. 2. Thou shalt not believe thy assumptions. For the consultant: 3. Thou shalt not make thy client's assumptions for him. 4. Thou shalt inform thy client of the consequences of his assumptions. For the person who is both (e. g., a biostatistician or psychometrician): 5. Thou shalt keep thy roles distinct, lest thou violate some of the other commandments. The consultant is obligated to point out how their assumptions affect their views of their domain; this is in the 4-th commandment. But the consultant should be very careful in the assumption-making process not to intrude beyond possibly pointing out that certain assumptions make large differences, while others do not. A good example here is regression analysis, where often normality has little effect, but the linearity of the model is of great importance. Thus, it is very important for the client to have to justify transformations. There are, unfortunately, many fields in which much of the activity consists of using statistical procedures without regard for any assumptions. -- This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University. Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558 === This list is open to everyone. Occasionally, less thoughtful people send inappropriate messages. Please DO NOT COMPLAIN TO THE POSTMASTER about these messages because the postmaster has no way of controlling them, and excessive complaints will result in termination of the list. For information about this list, including information about the problem of inappropriate messages and information about how to unsubscribe, please see the web page at http://jse.stat.ncsu.edu/ ===
Re: over and above
Hello Dennis, I teach a couple of "graduate level" survey courses to basic science students, nursing students, fellows and residents. The purpose of the course, as I see it, is to give them the tools to read journal articles and to present their own research. Projects are important for these students, I feel, even though it does take a lot of class time, something that was very hard for me to give up initially until I came to the realization that presentations are a great tool for teaching. Feedback from the class is inspiring at times. I de-emphasize the grading aspects...everyone gets points for doing the project. I've had only a few who didn't do a GREAT job...something about presenting before your peers that motivates much more than a written exam, I think. No one wants to be "found out". Occassionally, someone wants to present their dissertation but we nip that. What I ask them to do is to present their own research as if they were presenting it to a group of their own peers. Each presenter is given an alloted amount of time to present. I have a moderator keep time, just like at a formal meeting and the timekeeping is strict. They use some form of multimedia...slides, overheads, etc. Afterwards, we open the floor for discussion focusing on the statistical methods and results. Lots of great opportunities (and sometimes exam questions) come from these discussions. Anxious to hear how others feel about projects. Warren dennis roberts wrote: grading projects for a first assignment REreminds me that ... some students go way above and beyond the call of duty when doing projects ... in my case, they have to download a file ... do some analyses ... and then do some write up of what they found. now, some go to alot to trouble to do very nice documents in a word processor and have gone to fancy extents ... whereas others will use (minitab is the package in this case) minitab ... and do all their work in it (which is possible) and turn in an acceptable document ... say the right things, etc. the QUALITY of the document is not a gradable criterion (in my system ... maybe it should be) ... but, how do any of you deal with this sort of thing ... whether it be a document to be turned in or some other assignment ... some just go WAY over what is required ... of course, penn state has no A+ grade category .. !!! === This list is open to everyone. Occasionally, less thoughtful people send inappropriate messages. Please DO NOT COMPLAIN TO THE POSTMASTER about these messages because the postmaster has no way of controlling them, and excessive complaints will result in termination of the list. For information about this list, including information about the problem of inappropriate messages and information about how to unsubscribe, please see the web page at http://jse.stat.ncsu.edu/ === === This list is open to everyone. Occasionally, less thoughtful people send inappropriate messages. Please DO NOT COMPLAIN TO THE POSTMASTER about these messages because the postmaster has no way of controlling them, and excessive complaints will result in termination of the list. For information about this list, including information about the problem of inappropriate messages and information about how to unsubscribe, please see the web page at http://jse.stat.ncsu.edu/ ===
Re: over and above
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], dennis roberts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 08:19 AM 03/21/2000 -0500, Herman Rubin wrote: The purpose of any course should be the development of knowledge and the ability to use it. Even the use of assignments for any other purpose does not contribute to education. Assignments for the purpose of having the students do assignments, or even for the purpose of grading beyond the minimum necessary, are very common and in my opinion helping to lower the quality of education. It a student already knows how to do it, that student should not have to do it. It becomes busy work. this sounds great ... but, how does the instructor KNOW this if not through some form of work that you have students engage in and let the instructor look at? not admitting that the projects i give to students amount to busy work (i am sure many students would claim that) ... but, much of education and by that i mean LEARNING ... IS busy work ... busy to the extent that you practice something sufficiently so that it becomes 'natural' to you ... to think that way, to write that way, to solve problems that way ... etc. This might possibly be the case for the weak students, but not for the strong ones. It is the concepts which are the most important part, and concepts need little, if any, practice. One should give a variety of exercises, and the student should do as much as is necessary. We cannot remedy the damage done by the elementary and high schools having students only work for a grade; it will be necessary to let those who want to learn to do so without wasting time on trivial pursuit and manipulation. Some should do more, some should do less, some should skip all the "easy" ones, and some may never be able to do more than that. Those wanting to learn will probably do more than necessary. Should we penalize them by wasting their time for the ones who will not work except when they are being whipped? -- This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University. Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558 === This list is open to everyone. Occasionally, less thoughtful people send inappropriate messages. Please DO NOT COMPLAIN TO THE POSTMASTER about these messages because the postmaster has no way of controlling them, and excessive complaints will result in termination of the list. For information about this list, including information about the problem of inappropriate messages and information about how to unsubscribe, please see the web page at http://jse.stat.ncsu.edu/ ===
Re: over and above
i'm not sure the statement below is true for this strong student. when it comes to applying the concepts, you do need to know them inside and out and much of that intuition (for me) came from reams of homework problems. Herman Rubin wrote: snip This might possibly be the case for the weak students, but not for the strong ones. It is the concepts which are the most important part, and concepts need little, if any, practice. -- Any resemblance of any of the above opinions to anybody's official position is completely coincidental. Muriel Strand, P.E. Air Resources Engineer CA Air Resources Board 2020 L Street Sacramento, CA 59814 916-324-9661 916-327-8524 (fax) www.arb.ca.gov === This list is open to everyone. Occasionally, less thoughtful people send inappropriate messages. Please DO NOT COMPLAIN TO THE POSTMASTER about these messages because the postmaster has no way of controlling them, and excessive complaints will result in termination of the list. For information about this list, including information about the problem of inappropriate messages and information about how to unsubscribe, please see the web page at http://jse.stat.ncsu.edu/ ===
Re: over and above
- Forwarded message from Herman Rubin - It is the concepts which are the most important part, and concepts need little, if any, practice. One should give a variety of exercises, and the student should do as much as is necessary. - End of forwarded message from Herman Rubin - I like to distinguish between practice and experience. Practice is repetition with little or no variation to attain accuracy and speed. Learning to type or play the piano requires lots of practice. At one time there was some justification for lots of practice in pencil and paper computations, but I think that day has long since passed. Experience thrives on variety. Some of the exercise sets in the better of the older college math. textbooks started simple and became increasingly complex. The question was whether you could still apply the concepts in ever more distracting surroundings. A nice way to gain experience with bivariate measurement data is to see lots of scattergrams. In addition to the Anscombe quartet, plots that show clumping, exponential growth, a logistic function, etc. There is a conflict between practice and experience in that a goal of practice is to reach the point where you carry out the procedure WITHOUT THINKING ABOUT THE UNDERLYING CONCEPTS OR PRINCIPLES. It beomes automated and brainless, a skill of the fingers (or toes). For that reason, I think practice should be dispensed only with a doctor's prescription, AFTER one has shown mastery of the concepts. In pracitce our education system tends to work the other way around -- try to get everybody to go through the motions and hope a few will see the reasons. _ | | Robert W. Hayden | | Department of Mathematics / | Plymouth State College MSC#29 | | Plymouth, New Hampshire 03264 USA | * | Rural Route 1, Box 10 /| Ashland, NH 03217-9702 | ) (603) 968-9914 (home) L_/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] fax (603) 535-2943 (work) === This list is open to everyone. Occasionally, less thoughtful people send inappropriate messages. Please DO NOT COMPLAIN TO THE POSTMASTER about these messages because the postmaster has no way of controlling them, and excessive complaints will result in termination of the list. For information about this list, including information about the problem of inappropriate messages and information about how to unsubscribe, please see the web page at http://jse.stat.ncsu.edu/ ===
Re: over and above
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], dennis roberts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: grading projects for a first assignment REreminds me that ... some students go way above and beyond the call of duty when doing projects ... in my case, they have to download a file ... do some analyses ... and then do some write up of what they found. now, some go to alot to trouble to do very nice documents in a word processor and have gone to fancy extents ... whereas others will use (minitab is the package in this case) minitab ... and do all their work in it (which is possible) and turn in an acceptable document ... say the right things, etc. the QUALITY of the document is not a gradable criterion (in my system ... maybe it should be) ... but, how do any of you deal with this sort of thing ... whether it be a document to be turned in or some other assignment ... some just go WAY over what is required ... From your posting, they go way over in matters not related to the proper subject matter of the course. I see no reason to encourage the use of time for "glitz". The purpose of any course should be the development of knowledge and the ability to use it. Even the use of assignments for any other purpose does not contribute to education. Assignments for the purpose of having the students do assignments, or even for the purpose of grading beyond the minimum necessary, are very common and in my opinion helping to lower the quality of education. It a student already knows how to do it, that student should not have to do it. It becomes busy work. -- This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University. Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558 === This list is open to everyone. Occasionally, less thoughtful people send inappropriate messages. Please DO NOT COMPLAIN TO THE POSTMASTER about these messages because the postmaster has no way of controlling them, and excessive complaints will result in termination of the list. For information about this list, including information about the problem of inappropriate messages and information about how to unsubscribe, please see the web page at http://jse.stat.ncsu.edu/ ===
Re: over and above
On Mon, 20 Mar 2000, dennis roberts wrote: some [students] go to a lot to trouble to do very nice documents in a word processor and have gone to fancy extents ... whereas others will use (minitab is the package in this case) minitab ... and do all their work in it (which is possible) and turn in an acceptable document ... say the right things, etc. the QUALITY of the document is not a gradable criterion (in my system ... maybe it should be) ... but, how do any of you deal with this sort of thing ... whether it be a document to be turned in or some other assignment ... some just go WAY over what is required ... Well, you haven't really defined what you mean by "QUALITY" (nor whether that differs from what you would mean by "quality", not in caps). In any assignment of mine (that is to be graded: I don't grade mere homework exercises) I expect answers to the questions I asked. If a question was "What is the standard deviation of 'Pulse1' for those who did not run in place between measurements?" I expect an answer _from_the_student_ that includes some explicit reference to "standard deviation", to "Pulse1", to "did not run in place". Mere un-annotated output from Minitab's DESCribe command is not sufficient. Which is to say that a minimum of form is necessary, along with adequate content. (As a teacher of mine used to say, "Neatness counts." So do complete sentences, sound logic, and explicit statements that do not require the instructor to exercise telepathy.) However, I've generally felt that gilding the lily to the extent of producing a gradable assignment in publishable form (using, say, MSWord with Minitab output imported into it) is either (a) a convenience for the student because s/he really prefers to prepare all work with MSWord, or (b) an aesthetic preference of the student because s/he _likes_ to make things pretty, or (c) a recreational activity. Hard to tell how much more is useful to write, in the absence of a clearer notion of what you mean by "an acceptable document" vs. a fancied-up document exhibiting this undefined, non-gradable "QUALITY" stuff. of course, penn state has no A+ grade category .. !!! Neither has PSC, which may say something about both institutions :-). U of Toronto does (or did, at the graduate level at least), and I found it useful to have it available (defined more or less as "A" work, plus initiative shown by the student; I delighted in quoting the def'n and then stating its corollary: that I couldn't tell them how to get an A+!). -- Don. Donald F. Burrill [EMAIL PROTECTED] 348 Hyde Hall, Plymouth State College, [EMAIL PROTECTED] MSC #29, Plymouth, NH 03264 603-535-2597 184 Nashua Road, Bedford, NH 03110 603-471-7128 === This list is open to everyone. Occasionally, less thoughtful people send inappropriate messages. Please DO NOT COMPLAIN TO THE POSTMASTER about these messages because the postmaster has no way of controlling them, and excessive complaints will result in termination of the list. For information about this list, including information about the problem of inappropriate messages and information about how to unsubscribe, please see the web page at http://jse.stat.ncsu.edu/ ===
Re: over and above
At 08:19 AM 03/21/2000 -0500, Herman Rubin wrote: The purpose of any course should be the development of knowledge and the ability to use it. Even the use of assignments for any other purpose does not contribute to education. Assignments for the purpose of having the students do assignments, or even for the purpose of grading beyond the minimum necessary, are very common and in my opinion helping to lower the quality of education. It a student already knows how to do it, that student should not have to do it. It becomes busy work. this sounds great ... but, how does the instructor KNOW this if not through some form of work that you have students engage in and let the instructor look at? not admitting that the projects i give to students amount to busy work (i am sure many students would claim that) ... but, much of education and by that i mean LEARNING ... IS busy work ... busy to the extent that you practice something sufficiently so that it becomes 'natural' to you ... to think that way, to write that way, to solve problems that way ... etc. === This list is open to everyone. Occasionally, less thoughtful people send inappropriate messages. Please DO NOT COMPLAIN TO THE POSTMASTER about these messages because the postmaster has no way of controlling them, and excessive complaints will result in termination of the list. For information about this list, including information about the problem of inappropriate messages and information about how to unsubscribe, please see the web page at http://jse.stat.ncsu.edu/ ===
Re: over and above
dennis roberts wrote: grading projects for a first assignment REreminds me that ... some students go way above and beyond the call of duty when doing projects ... in my case, they have to download a file ... do some analyses ... and then do some write up of what they found. now, some go to alot to trouble to do very nice documents in a word processor and have gone to fancy extents ... whereas others will use (minitab is the package in this case) minitab ... and do all their work in it (which is possible) and turn in an acceptable document ... say the right things, etc. the QUALITY of the document is not a gradable criterion (in my system ... maybe it should be) ... but, how do any of you deal with this sort of thing ... whether it be a document to be turned in or some other assignment ... some just go WAY over what is required ... of course, penn state has no A+ grade category .. !!! Grading projects is difficult, but it has become easier for me ever since I have adopted the "dimensions" approach. I like to give them about ten "dimensions" to shoot for, and then sum the ten to get the final grade. Some dimensions, like "correct analysis" and "correct interpretations" get a lot more weight. "Professional appearance" is a good dimension to include. After all, if they produce reports in the "real world", they should have a professional appearance. Another dimension I use is "completeness". This one is a double-edged sword - they have to include enough analysis to be convincing, but extraneous "padding" counts against them. I would not complain about having too many good students! It does bring back the issue of "grading on the curve", though. Anyone want to re-start that thread? Peter === This list is open to everyone. Occasionally, less thoughtful people send inappropriate messages. Please DO NOT COMPLAIN TO THE POSTMASTER about these messages because the postmaster has no way of controlling them, and excessive complaints will result in termination of the list. For information about this list, including information about the problem of inappropriate messages and information about how to unsubscribe, please see the web page at http://jse.stat.ncsu.edu/ ===
Re: over and above
Surely one of the important things for students of statistics (and I could probably replace that by any other discipline name) to learn is to communicate the results of their work to others. For a consulting statistician this is clearly an absolutely essential skill, but it also applies for someone working within an organisation, for an academic writing a research paper, and of course for a teacher (even university teachers) I couldn't agree more. In fact, I often tell my students that they don't really understand the analysis if they can't explain it in words. So I actually spend at least some class time every semester to "teaching writing," as odd as that may sound for a statistician. I tend to give two sorts of exercises, those that are simple "what's the answer" items, and longer "research setting" questions. In the former, I'm looking for a number, a table, a graph, etc. The latter normally asks for a "Results" paragraph, with the data communicated in the proper verbal and graphic form. Since I'm in Psychology, and since we have a clear standard for such matters (The APA Style Manual), they are expected to use that form. (If nothing else, my students can damned sure write an APA Results section by the time they leave! Actually, they learn a lot of stats. But alumni report two things they've carried away from the course--that they can actually do and understand stats, and that they can REALLY write data summaries.) Richard S. Lehman email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Professor of Psychology That's an underscore, NOT a hyphen! Whitely Laboratories Franklin Marshall College 717 291 4202 Box 3003 Lancaster, PA, 17604-3003 Currently on sabbatical leave and can be reached at: 1930 W. San Marcos Blvd. #119 San Marcos, CA 92069 760 727 1452 [EMAIL PROTECTED] === This list is open to everyone. Occasionally, less thoughtful people send inappropriate messages. Please DO NOT COMPLAIN TO THE POSTMASTER about these messages because the postmaster has no way of controlling them, and excessive complaints will result in termination of the list. For information about this list, including information about the problem of inappropriate messages and information about how to unsubscribe, please see the web page at http://jse.stat.ncsu.edu/ ===
over and above
grading projects for a first assignment REreminds me that ... some students go way above and beyond the call of duty when doing projects ... in my case, they have to download a file ... do some analyses ... and then do some write up of what they found. now, some go to alot to trouble to do very nice documents in a word processor and have gone to fancy extents ... whereas others will use (minitab is the package in this case) minitab ... and do all their work in it (which is possible) and turn in an acceptable document ... say the right things, etc. the QUALITY of the document is not a gradable criterion (in my system ... maybe it should be) ... but, how do any of you deal with this sort of thing ... whether it be a document to be turned in or some other assignment ... some just go WAY over what is required ... of course, penn state has no A+ grade category .. !!! === This list is open to everyone. Occasionally, less thoughtful people send inappropriate messages. Please DO NOT COMPLAIN TO THE POSTMASTER about these messages because the postmaster has no way of controlling them, and excessive complaints will result in termination of the list. For information about this list, including information about the problem of inappropriate messages and information about how to unsubscribe, please see the web page at http://jse.stat.ncsu.edu/ ===
