Re: [Edu-sig] Python for CS101
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dan Crosta Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2005 12:46 PM To: edu-sig@python.org Subject: Re: [Edu-sig] Python for CS101 In fact, the only areas I think Python is *not* suitable are low-level architecture-dependent programming. Unless you count Jython and its access to Java classes, I think the ability to code applets to run client-side over the Internet is still a Java forte and niche high level application that hasn't been duplicated in Python -- again, unless you count Jython (which in my experience hasn't become a significant source of such applets). Now, whether applet coding should be a significant part of a CS0/CS1 course is something we might debate, but I do think this is a case where a language other than Python has a significant edge at a higher level than low-level architecture-dependent programming. I'm sure we might come up with other examples (using Eiffel? Ocaml? Haskell? J?). I like CS courses which sample (in my freshman CS course a Princeton, we played with SNOBOL, APL, PL/1, FORTRAN, and no doubt some others I've forgotten). That being said, you also need an anchor or home base language to help you nail it all down, and as a point of comparison. Python makes a lot of sense in this role. So of course I agree that Python is a strong candidate as the star of a CS0/CS1 course and I fully expect it to continue making inroads deep into that turf. I also find it interesting that most of us here are considering it as an alternative to either C++ or Java, but aren't mentioning Scheme (which has been an intro CS language at MIT for some time). Also, down the road, I can see a CS curriculum which is pretty .NET centric, using Python with the CLR per IronPython, with the obvious bridge to C# (Python's implementation language on that platform). This approach is more likely if the .NET clones continue to evolve in tandem with the Microsoft OS, as this will solve a lot of cross-platform development issues. Kirby ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] Python for CS101
Also, down the road, I can see a CS curriculum which is pretty .NET centric, To me, the spirit of Python and .Net are quite unaligned. It seems that many of us who feel aligned with Python feel aligned with it in spirit, more than in anything in particular in its syntax and semantics. If we insist that broader questions (at least loosely) related to academic ethics are irrelevant, some of us win and some of us lose. Are we training programmers for industry, or mentoring hackers to hack - why, where, when being their business? I don't think it unreasonable to try to keep alive the notion that at least certain kinds of academic institutions would and should remain a degree removed from idea of training, and a degree committed to the idea of stimulating the development of more abstract skills by way of a less goal oriented exploration. So it is no small thing for me to hear that an insitution like Swathmore has moved from Scheme to Java. Which is a move - in my mind - exactly in the wrong direction. Ted Leung blog entry of this morning being highly relevant, I thnk http://www.sauria.com/blog/ It is also no small thing to me to feel inhibited from mentioning Ted's entry and hoping to stimulate some discussion of it here - though finding no direct mention of Python in it. Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] Python for CS101
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Also, down the road, I can see a CS curriculum which is pretty .NET centric, To me, the spirit of Python and .Net are quite unaligned. [Snip...] It is also no small thing to me to feel inhibited from mentioning Ted's entry and hoping to stimulate some discussion of it here - though finding no direct mention of Python in it. Art As I suspect I am the person responsible for Art mentioning his feeling of being inhibited in discussing Ted Leung's blog entry on this list, I can't help but feel compelled to state that the comments I made were not meant to inhibit any discussion. I just voiced (perhaps too forcefully) my personal opinion. Peace, André ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] Python for CS101
I don't think it unreasonable to try to keep alive the notion that at least certain kinds of academic institutions would and should remain a degree removed from idea of training, and a degree committed to the idea of stimulating the development of more abstract skills by way of a less goal oriented exploration. I'm not sure why you think doing Python on top of .NET is a move towards cookie-cutter training-for-industry style programming. It's pretty much the same Python, in terms of syntax and semantics. Maybe some differences in garbage collection, a few other things -- I'm no expert. Python .NET is a lot like Jython -- same Python on the surface, but another implementation language under the hood (C# instead of C or Java this time). So it is no small thing for me to hear that an insitution like Swathmore has moved from Scheme to Java. Which is a move - in my mind - exactly in the wrong direction. And would you say the same of a move from Scheme to Python? Again, I think any CS *curriculum* has to go into more than one language. But any given course might focus on just one, such as Python. Plus I like those sampler courses (like the beer sampler you can get at some brew pubs). Ted Leung blog entry of this morning being highly relevant, I thnk http://www.sauria.com/blog/ It is also no small thing to me to feel inhibited from mentioning Ted's entry and hoping to stimulate some discussion of it here - though finding no direct mention of Python in it. Art I believe I read the right entry, about open source and homeschooling and the flattening of the world (meaning leveling of the playing field). Seems pretty on target in a lot of ways. Kirby ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
