Re: [Edu-sig] Low Enrollments - programming as anti-intellectualism
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kirby Urner Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 9:17 PM To: 'Scott David Daniels'; edu-sig@python.org Subject: Re: [Edu-sig] Low Enrollments - programming as anti- CS needs better movies, visualizations/animations, is the long and short of it -- of Knuth's 256-cylinder engine's internals along with the rest of it (roar!). You'd probably appreciate the recent cite on PlanetPyhton: Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs iPod edition ;) http://pythonzweb.blogspot.com/2005/11/structure-and-interpretation-of.html But my problem with media like movies is that they are designed as linear. A good technical books is designed more for random access. Easy to read those three pages again, jump forward a chapter, then back 3. True, its easy enough to mimic that in current forms of media, and the tech-savvy might get all excited about the achievement of doing just that, never feeling fully obligated to explain the advantage of their advancement over what it is mimicking - a book. Art Kirby --Scott David Daniels [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] Low Enrollments - programming as anti-intellectualism
-Original Message- From: Arthur [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, November 04, 2005 7:44 AM To: 'Kirby Urner'; 'Scott David Daniels'; 'edu-sig@python.org' CS needs better movies, visualizations/animations, is the long and short of it -- of Knuth's 256-cylinder engine's internals along with the rest of it (roar!). Obviously, OTOH (to my previous post), there would not be a PyGeo if I found a book approach fully satisfactory to what I was trying to achieve in getting to geometric concepts. Pascal's Mystic Hexagon (inscribed in a conic) is unconvincing and uninspiring when viewed as a static illustration. An animation of it is a step forward. Better yet is getting random access to it, in the form of a dynamic construction. Not convinced that the three pairs of the continuations of opposite sides of the inscribed hexagon meet on a straight line? Try me. The difficulty in this stuff is recognizing, appreciating and exploiting new possibilities in a focused manner, without getting *too* excited and generalizing *too* broadly about what those possibilities are and where they get us. Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] Low Enrollments - programming as anti-intellectualism
My own experience is more toward the learning to program to learn - in my case - mathematical ideas. But ultimately, to get to where I want to get, I realize that basic computational skills are not sufficient - that I need to get somewhat beyond the basics. I think that the linguist, or geneticist might also find the same to be true - eventually. Where are those needs to be services under current academic structures? Those departments should fill those needs under current academic structures by offering the necessary computing courses. There's no shortage of people with practical computing skills --- just a shortage of people with impractical ones. :-) One thing CS departments could do is offer service-oriented software engineering courses. It's clear that many people nowadays learn to program on their own, and run into well-known difficulties once their programs get too big. Those people would probably appreciate and benefit from a software engineering course, especially if was platform/lanuage neutral. Toby -- Dr. Toby Donaldson School of Computing Science Simon Fraser University (Surrey) ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] Low Enrollments - programming as anti-intellectualism
Those departments should fill those needs under current academic structures by offering the necessary computing courses. There's no shortage of people with practical computing skills --- just a shortage of people with impractical ones. :-) I think there's a shortage of computer pros with strong presentation skills. Like, at Europython we got a 5 minute upbraiding by one of the few female geeks, complaining that we collectively mumbled too much, failed to project our enthusiasm for our topics. We must do more to delight, less to impress. I remember this OSCON talk I was at: the presenter kept pointing to the screen of his laptop (which no one but him could see), bringing our attention to this or that line of code (ever hear of a laser pointer guy?). One thing CS departments could do is offer service-oriented software engineering courses. It's clear that many people nowadays learn to program on their own, and run into well-known difficulties once their programs get too big. Those people would probably appreciate and benefit from a software engineering course, especially if was platform/lanuage neutral. Toby Probably the only way to push CS departments into offering such courseware is to compete with them. Small technical academies, like those mom and pop martial arts schools that dot Greater Portland, could specialize in various skillsets. Mom, I've off to a Plone class at Free Geek, then a C# class at the mall, then a movie! OK dear, don't forget to take your cell. Academia has this clever way of setting up a lot of prerequisites, getting you involved in this twisted maze, with degrees the cheese. With the new certifications though, you can get a black belt in something, without getting bogged down in somebody else's bright idea of what competent means. That's what a of geeks want: freedom to customize and configure. Of course the Internet itself is the best place to start. Kirby ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] Low Enrollments - programming as anti-intellectualism
- Original Message - From: Kirby Urner [EMAIL PROTECTED] In my Classroom of Tomorrow, the teacher has random access to a gazillionvideo shorts in the archive, and during QA might pull up just the right ones to sustain the dialog. It's not a matter of the teacher losing control to A/V (e.g. half- to full-hour documentaries). I just screen a quickanimation of a fetch instruction: bits on the address bus trigger RAM to dump some content onto the bus, which get loaded into a register on the CPU (25 seconds play time). Sounds expensive. Seems to me that you need to provide evidence of the effectiveness of your Classroom, before asking for adoption at beyond a guinea pig level. Which I understand is a lot to ask. But... It sounds expensive. And... Most of these kinds of initiatives have not been able to stand up to any kind of rigorous approach to assessing their effectiveness. It seems that the answer has been that if we ignore this fact stubbornly enough, it somehow goes away. Or - where I think we are going - get the instituional support for a redesign of our tests until we get the answers we are looking for. This guinea pig will continue to squeal (or squeak ;)) like a pig in the face of that. Doesn't mean that your approach cannot be effective. But those of us paying attention will continue to press the issue of evidence (and its interpreatation), particularly in light of what evidence there so far has been. Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] Low Enrollments - programming as anti-intellectualism
On Fri, 2005-11-04 at 10:58 -0800, Kirby Urner wrote: In my Classroom of Tomorrow, the teacher has random access to a gazillion video shorts in the archive, and during QA might pull up just the right ones to sustain the dialog. It's not a matter of the teacher losing control to A/V (e.g. half- to full-hour documentaries). I just screen a quick animation of a fetch instruction: bits on the address bus trigger RAM to dump some content onto the bus, which get loaded into a register on the CPU (25 seconds play time). We're working on something like that here for language teaching. We've got a big archive of authentic language materials (digital audio and video media), annotated (semi-)automatically with information that lets language teacher call up segments that are relevant for their lessons -- say, suppose someone wants a real example of a second conjugation verb used in the pluperfect in a conversation between two characters of equal social status in an Albanian sitcom. We're not imagining it as a real-time system yet (teachers would collect the digital media segments and assemble them into a powerpoint presentation before class), but there's no reason the archives couldn't be searchable on-line like that someday. -- Rob Malouf [EMAIL PROTECTED] Department of Linguistics and Oriental Languages San Diego State University ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] Low Enrollments - programming as anti-intellectualism
Kirby Urner wrote: I think there's a shortage of computer pros with strong presentation skills. Like, at Europython we got a 5 minute upbraiding by one of the few female geeks, complaining that we collectively mumbled too much, failed to project our enthusiasm for our topics. We must do more to delight, less to impress. Actually, there is a shortage of _people_ with strong presentation skills, period. Computer types are no worse than the rest of the population in my experience. snip here, Toby's call for service courses in software engineering Probably the only way to push CS departments into offering such courseware is to compete with them. Small technical academies, like those mom and pop martial arts schools that dot Greater Portland, could specialize in various skillsets. Mom, I've off to a Plone class at Free Geek, then a C# class at the mall, then a movie! OK dear, don't forget to take your cell. Academia has this clever way of setting up a lot of prerequisites, getting you involved in this twisted maze, with degrees the cheese. With the new certifications though, you can get a black belt in something, without getting bogged down in somebody else's bright idea of what competent means. That's what a of geeks want: freedom to customize and configure. Of course the Internet itself is the best place to start. Hopefully academia is not now and never will be about certification. They fill very different needs. Academia is about exploring the potential of mind in all directions. It's the place to go for truly broadening (in the sense of character and worldview) and deepening (in the sense of critical thought) experiences. That's why academics value scholarship so highly, even though outsiders may see it all as silly games. It's the one place in the world where students can be immersed in the exercise of reason and free inquiry with a minimum of distractions. Academic education is about fostering a mastery orientation where new challenges are met with determination and excitement. Certification, while valuable, is about demonstrating proficiency in some particular, narrow skill set. If you want to develop potential in-depth, you need experience building a body of knowledge with some depth and sophistication. The seemingly arcane pre-req structure allows that to happen. If there's anything I've learned from studies in both human and machine learning, it is that you can only learn new things that are relatively close to the scaffolding of knowledge that you already have. Part of a good education is figuring out how that scaffolding can be built step-by-step to lay a foundation for deeper knowledge. Of course, one could just let the market sort out who has the necessary background or aptitude to gain from a particular course. But that assumes that individuals who are not yet trained have as good an eye for how to build the scaffolding as those who have already ascended it. I don't see how that can ever be as efficient. Kirby, do you not see any irony between your two comments in this thread? One of the goals of liberal education is to produce well-rounded, deeply human individuals. One of the bright ideas of competence academics have is that students should be able to express themselves elequently, persuasively, and publicly. In my view, we (as a society) need more of this sort of whole education, with it's attendant mazes of pre-reqs and extraneous requirements. All the technical certification programs in the world will never produce a good presenter, let alone a truly educated citizen. --John -- John M. Zelle, Ph.D. Wartburg College Professor of Computer ScienceWaverly, IA [EMAIL PROTECTED] (319) 352-8360 -- John M. Zelle, Ph.D. Wartburg College Professor of Computer ScienceWaverly, IA [EMAIL PROTECTED] (319) 352-8360 ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] Low Enrollments - programming as anti-intellectualism
- Original Message - From: Rob Malouf [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Friday, November 4, 2005 3:13 pm Subject: Re: [Edu-sig] Low Enrollments - programming as anti-intellectualism ). We're working on something like that here for language teaching. Please note that the evidence there is suggests that a media intensive approach to language teaching *is* effective. And in fact audio-visual techniques were being used 35 years ago when I was (not very unsuccessfully) studiying language. But the evidence is also slear that its effectiveness in language study is not something that can be easilty generalized. Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] Low Enrollments - programming as anti-intellectualism
Sounds expensive. Video production is amenable to open source techniques i.e. centralized databases with individual designers doing edit/recombine, re-uploading, building off one another's efforts. Anyway expensive just means lots of paying work for people so what's so bad about that? Health care is expensive too. So 're bombers (even minus the cost of rebuilding what they demolish). Seems to me that you need to provide evidence of the effectiveness of your Classroom, before asking for adoption at beyond a guinea pig level. Which I understand is a lot to ask. I regard my movie clip culture as a semi-inevitable consequence of generations growing up taking TV for granted, plus falling costs of the production equipment. This kind of experimentation with more animations is going on all over the place 24/7. Obviously this is not a new idea or original with me. I'm just applying some very high level management techniques (VHLMT), bringing already existing projects to the surface in an open source context (= playground). Or is open source just a buzzword here? Like, if I share a cartoon on ClipForge.com with the understanding that anyone is welcome to splice it in, doctor it in some way, that's one thing -- but what if I don't share the techniques behind it? How open is that? But... It sounds expensive. And... Most of these kinds of initiatives have not been able to stand up to any kind of rigorous approach to assessing their effectiveness. A statement made with no citations or bibliographic references. I'm to take this assertion on faith? It seems that the answer has been that if we ignore this fact stubbornly enough, it somehow goes away. The assertion now becomes a fact. Or - where I think we are going - get the instituional support for a redesign of our tests until we get the answers we are looking for. This guinea pig will continue to squeal (or squeak ;)) like a pig in the face of that. More effective would be to give us some cool DVD clips using Pygeo. How can we turn your demo of Pascal's whatever into an MPEG or DivX file? In the case of Struck (elastic interval geometry Java app), the answer was POV-Ray - many frames - AVI - MPEG. Doesn't mean that your approach cannot be effective. But those of us paying attention will continue to press the issue of evidence (and its interpreatation), particularly in light of what evidence there so far has been. Art What evidence again? Note: for a sample of my curriculum writing, with embedded links for animators see: http://mathforum.org/kb/thread.jspa?messageID=4069432#4069432 Kirby ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] Low Enrollments - programming as anti-intellectualism
Kirby, do you not see any irony between your two comments in this thread? One of the goals of liberal education is to produce well-rounded, deeply human individuals. One of the bright ideas of competence academics have is that students should be able to express themselves elequently, persuasively, and publicly. In my view, we (as a society) need more of this sort of whole education, with it's attendant mazes of pre-reqs and extraneous requirements. All the technical certification programs in the world will never produce a good presenter, let alone a truly educated citizen. --John I share your goals about providing people with mind-broadening as well as skill-building opportunities. I just don't think the existing Ivory Tower infrastructure is working fast enough or effectively enough to spread the wealth and could use some fierce competition (from different brand names in academia if you want to look at it that way). No college or university, however gothic-looking or ivy-covered, has an inherent right to advertise themselves as *the only* source of beautiful minds. Nor does any collection of schools have that logical right, short of all of them (Universe = University). The idea of schooling (propagating culture) is too important to be left to any exclusive subset, perhaps overspecialized within its specific economic niche. And what this subset *hasn't* become too complacent and will prove adaptable in the face of change? Well then, it has nothing to worry about. Let the chips fall where they may etc. In any age, I think a percentage of academics participate in it's recreation from within. Like MIT's decision to put so much prime material on line (like this 500MB lecture I'm still downloading -- just now finished) -- a lot of schools wouldn't have been that generous, would be more into hoarding, less into just getting it out there. I'm into just getting it out there. I count on the best efforts of many in academia to help me do that. I'm also into working with local mom and pop shops like Free Geek (Oso et al). They're not offering degrees, but they do know some kung fu (as geeks sometimes call it). Kids like to hang out there (some are future CS professors). Kirby ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] Low Enrollments - programming as anti-intellectualism
-Original Message- From: Kirby Urner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Most of these kinds of initiatives have not been able to stand up to any kind of rigorous approach to assessing their effectiveness. A statement made with no citations or bibliographic references. I'm to take this assertion on faith? No Kirby. I asked my little brother. Silly to suggest that I would just be making this up. Its all around you, you just choose not to see it. A quick google on some key words gets me to www.allianceforchildhood.net/computers Please spend a few minutes there. Can I turn the tables - please help me with your cites as to the evidence of the effectiveness of the Kirby-like educational environment. You're the guy spending the bucks for us, so you have the burden. But please go beyond the why would God lead us to the vPod its if its just going to be another way to watch re-runs argument - which I always sense is somehow at the bottom of your point of view. More effective would be to give us some cool DVD clips using Pygeo. How can we turn your demo of Pascal's whatever into an MPEG or DivX file? In the case of Struck (elastic interval geometry Java app), the answer was POV- Ray - many frames - AVI - MPEG. I'd love to, except that I don't think PyGeo is very interesting if that is how it is to be used. It is meant to be used to create constructions, deliberately (no mice allowed), and then to interact with what it is one has oneself constructed. It's a lot more interesting that a MPEG, but works from the premise there is no quicker road to heaven than the one being provided. I like to think of it as already optimized, it that sense. I have no evidence for that, BTW. Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] Low Enrollments - programming as anti-intellectualism
www.allianceforchildhood.net/computers Please spend a few minutes there. I'll be spending more than a few. You're the guy spending the bucks for us, so you have the burden. I'm not pushing any one size fits all approach. If groups want to develop computer-free video-free modes of education, like we had in the good old days, and field test them voluntarily, that's fine. This call for a moratorium on further introduction of computers in early childhood (quoting from above web site) is something a given school or community might well call for and achieve. Some people don't want to eat meat. The permutations are endless. Fine by me. Waldorf has a lot of nice features. So does Montessori. I'm all for the power to opt out. But I want the power to opt out of whatever they're going to do when they opt out. I might want to opt in. I develop curriculum for a more screen intensive lifestyle. Computers and digicams are a given. Yes, lack of physical exercise is sometimes a problem and needs to be addressed. Using screens a lot doesn't preclude that. But please go beyond the why would God lead us to the vPod its if its just going to be another way to watch re-runs argument - which I always sense is somehow at the bottom of your point of view. You do what you think is healthy and wise, and see how much you're willing to trust your kids and grandkids when they form their own judgments on these matters. That's your business and it's not my plan to interfere. I have better things to do than try to be everyone's parent. I'm just some guy. Don't paint me as trying to force my curriculum down your throat. I don't have any investment in making you do as I do. I'm a recruiter, yes, but that doesn't mean I think others have no rights to the same field. I'm here to compete. I relish competition. I don't *want* to be the only game in town (I'd *hate* that). I'd love to, except that I don't think PyGeo is very interesting if that is how it is to be used. It is meant to be used to create constructions, deliberately (no mice allowed), and then to interact with what it is one has oneself constructed. Again, if you're offering PyGeo as an open source tool, I hope you're not going to be too control freaky about how other people use it. Maybe some studio wants to generate a bunch of MPEGs around famous theorems in projective geometry -- nothing directly to do with programming or Python. If I were you, I'd be proud to see my tool used in this way. The future is nothing if not surprising, always. Kirby ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
[Edu-sig] Low Enrollments - programming as anti-intellectualism
Tony wrote - I don't worry too much about the people who go into CS expecting vocational training --- such people can very happily be steered towards excellent technical training outside of universities. But I suspect that CS is often a let-down to students who expect it to be as relevant as, say, engineering or business --- especially if they take any AI courses. :-) The head of the math department at the engineering college with whom I had some interaction explained to me that his department's role was in the first place in service to the general education goals of the college, which meant, as a practical matter, supplying the math courses tailored to the needs of an engineering student. There were math majors whose needs were being serviced as well, but not enough to justify the resources devoted to the math department, stand alone. He seemed well reconciled to that role for his department - despite the fact that the course content in his department tended not to be where his own mathematical interests were most focused. Does this have any relevancy to where the CS department may be evolving - as CS and programming skills become more and more relevant to a wider range of pursuits. As, for example, noted by Rob Malouf's recent post: We're not training our students to be programmers, we're just trying to give them the basic computational skills necessary to study language, genes, etc. There is - as I think John pretty much put - learning to program - to program, and learning to program - to learn. My own experience is more toward the learning to program to learn - in my case - mathematical ideas. But ultimately, to get to where I want to get, I realize that basic computational skills are not sufficient - that I need to get somewhat beyond the basics. I think that the linguist, or geneticist might also find the same to be true - eventually. Where are those needs to be services under current academic structures? Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] Low Enrollments - programming as anti-intellectualism
Arthur wrote: As, for example, noted by Rob Malouf's recent post: We're not training our students to be programmers, we're just trying to give them the basic computational skills necessary to study language, genes, etc. There is - as I think John pretty much put - learning to program - to program, and learning to program - to learn. My own experience is more toward the learning to program to learn - in my case - mathematical ideas. But ultimately, to get to where I want to get, I realize that basic computational skills are not sufficient - that I need to get somewhat beyond the basics. I think that the linguist, or geneticist might also find the same to be true - eventually. Where are those needs to be services under current academic structures? This is why I'd call programming a writing skill. Not only should our geneticist be able to read and write programs, he should be able to know when he needs the services of a professional programmer. If you want to really understand the core, I'd suggest starting with MMIX, Knuth's new assembly/machine language. The book is slow going; a page a day is a good pace. It _does_ have answers to exercises, and some material is only presented in the exercises. If you get through the Fascicle (93 pages of presentation, 126 through the answers), you will actually have a good handle on the architecture of modern machines (one that should last you for a good 20 years) from the point of view of a programmer. It is not enough to help you design chips or wire up a machine. I wouldn't bother learning the MIX machine -- a great machine to know in the 70s and 80s because its architecture was typical of machines in those days. Once you've digested that, the rest of his works use that machine as the measure of what makes code fast or slow. You then have a great base to learn how sorting or 'll have an appreciation If you'd rather an easier start, I like Concrete Mathematics -- by Graham, Knuth, and Patashnik. Reads much faster and covers the mathematics needed to analyze algorithms. This path is a much more abstract approach to the problem. I remember in the introduction to the class (upon which this book was based), he claimed we call it Concrete Mathematics because it is hard. --Scott David Daniels [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] Low Enrollments - programming as anti-intellectualism
If you'd rather an easier start, I like Concrete Mathematics -- by Graham, Knuth, and Patashnik. Reads much faster and covers the mathematics needed to analyze algorithms. This path is a much more abstract approach to the problem. I remember in the introduction to the class (upon which this book was based), he claimed we call it Concrete Mathematics because it is hard. And I recommend tackling CM via J, as the late K. Iverson wrote a tutorial to go along with CM in his J language (derivative from APL in a lot of ways, but pure ASCII). Roger Hui Co. are continuing the work. But you don't have to be a CS major to play with J, which is a joy, nor even to earn a living that involves some programming (if earning is your gig -- some coders just give it away, but make it back, and then some, doing trades). I don't want people to feel weighed down by my philo-informed approach to CS (my focus at Princeton). Too many mathematicians run that trip: here, read this heavy book [thunk!]. CS needs better movies, visualizations/animations, is the long and short of it -- of Knuth's 256-cylinder engine's internals along with the rest of it (roar!). Kirby --Scott David Daniels [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
