Re: Learning EEV
On Tue 28 Jun 2022 at 23:06, Eduardo Ochs wrote: > On Tue, 28 Jun 2022 at 16:26, Tomas Hlavaty wrote: >> >> eev changes my emacs settings too much so >> I use eev-beginner only (subset of eev). > > Can you say more about which settings were changed by eev? It changes many keys.
Re: Learning EEV
On Tue 28 Jun 2022 at 22:57, Eduardo Ochs wrote: > for me `find-man' is "good" is `man' is "bad", because of these > reasons, > > 2) calls to them can be "refined" with a pos-spec (this will > be discussed below), > > 3) they open the new buffer in the current window (to make it > easier to "go back" after following them - see the next > section), > > 4) they don't display much output in the echo area, I know and agree with you. It would be better if the built-in emacs commands did that in the first place without having to reimplement them. On the other hand, I rarely use the searching part.
Re: Learning EEV
On Tue 28 Jun 2022 at 22:48, Eduardo Ochs wrote: > Eev's central idea is that you can keep "executable logs" of what > you do, in a format that is reasonably readable and that is easy to > "play back" later, step by step and in any order. We call these > executable logs, or executable notes, "e-scripts". > > which answer your question about what are e-scripts... > > ...again: it is very easy to show what a certain sexp or what a > certain e-script _do_ when they are executed, but it is much harder to > explain what they _are_... This might be confusing because a script is usually a text file which is interpreted (as a whole) by a language interpreter. An e-script is not that. An e-script is a text file with free form notes. Additionally, some lines could run emacs-lisp code (one line per key press) and some lines could be "code" lines that are sent (one line per key press) to an associated interpreter buffer.
Re: Learning EEV
On Tue, 28 Jun 2022 at 16:26, Tomas Hlavaty wrote: > > eev changes my emacs settings too much so > I use eev-beginner only (subset of eev). Can you say more about which settings were changed by eev? Do you mean eev-mode-map? Or something else? Do you use this trick to define a leaner eev-mode-map? (find-eev "eev-mode.el" "when-not-eev-mode-map") http://angg.twu.net/eev-current/eev-mode.el.html#when-not-eev-mode-map Do you still call it eev-mode-map? Do you use another name for it? Thanks in advance!!! E.
Re: Learning EEV
On Tue, 28 Jun 2022 at 16:26, Tomas Hlavaty wrote: > For example, a lot of things are redundant: > >(find-man "find") >vs >(man "find") Hi Tomas, for me `find-man' is "good" is `man' is "bad", because of these reasons, 2) calls to them can be "refined" with a pos-spec (this will be discussed below), 3) they open the new buffer in the current window (to make it easier to "go back" after following them - see the next section), 4) they don't display much output in the echo area, that are from this bigger list here: (find-eval-intro "4. Elisp hyperlinks") http://angg.twu.net/eev-intros/find-eval-intro.html#4 This is an example of a find-man with a refinement/pos-spec: (find-man "1 find" "\nEXAMPLES\n") [[]], E.
Re: Learning EEV
On Tue, 28 Jun 2022 at 20:06, Quiliro Ordóñez wrote: > > Perhaps it would be nice to have a glossary where your terms are > described in one sentence. I have found that I get lost in so much > information. When I don't understand something, I try to find the > information about that which I do not understand. If I do not find it, > I do not know where to continue from there. Sometimes the explanations > are tool lengthy. So I get tangled in long references to terms and lose > my way to the main explanation. I know that M-k is good to keep > organized. But I feel that it is not enough for me. I have needed > something more simple to start. Now that I understand Emacs and EEV > better, I can understand eev-begginer much better. But I think that it > would have been better to understand it without prior knowledge. Hi Quiliro, can you access this? I don't know how much JavaScript a browser, or wget, needs to access this PDF... https://arxiv.org/pdf/1612.09375.pdf#page=80 The important paragraph is this one: In his excellent book Mathematics: A Very Short Introduction, Timothy Gowers (2002) considers the question: `What is the black king in chess?' He swiftly points out that this question is rather peculiar. It is not important that the black king is a small piece of wood, painted a certain colour and carved into a certain shape. We could equally well use a scrap of paper with `BK' written on it. What matters is what the black king _does_: it can move in certain ways but not others, according to the rules of chess. There are many questions about eev that I find very hard to answer because they are like the question "What is the black king in chess?" above. It is very easy to show what a certain sexp or e-script... - obs: this tutorial (find-here-links-intro) starts with this paragraph: Eev's central idea is that you can keep "executable logs" of what you do, in a format that is reasonably readable and that is easy to "play back" later, step by step and in any order. We call these executable logs, or executable notes, "e-scripts". which answer your question about what are e-scripts... ...again: it is very easy to show what a certain sexp or what a certain e-script _do_ when they are executed, but it is much harder to explain what they _are_... [[]], E.
Re: Learning EEV
On Tue, 28 Jun 2022 at 20:06, Quiliro Ordóñez wrote: > > > I think that the problem is that eev grew organically from my needs. > > In the beginning I was a person who couldn't write programs longer > > than, say, 50 lines long, as I mentioned here: > > > > https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-orgmode/2022-06/msg00802.html > > > > I wanted to learn lots of tools and programming languages, and I found > > that by keeping "executable notes" of everything that I did I became > > capable of much bigger tasks. Then eev became a collection of the best > > minimal tools that I had - a bit like Unix, in which many of the > > programs in the "core utils" are standard, but many of these programs > > only make sense to new users after several years - and from time to > > time I would declare some of my old tools obsolete, because I had > > replacements for them that were much more elegant... for example > > `M-x eev', > > Nice story. > > > described here, > > > > (find-prepared-intro) > > http://angg.twu.net/eev-intros/find-prepared-intro.html > > > > that was sort of replaced by eepitch. > > Perhaps it would be nice to have a glossary where your terms are > described in one sentence. I have found that I get lost in so much > information. When I don't understand something, I try to find the > information about that which I do not understand. If I do not find it, > I do not know where to continue from there. Sometimes the explanations > are tool lengthy. So I get tangled in long references to terms and lose > my way to the main explanation. I know that M-k is good to keep > organized. But I feel that it is not enough for me. I have needed > something more simple to start. Now that I understand Emacs and EEV > better, I can understand eev-begginer much better. But I think that it > would have been better to understand it without prior knowledge. > > > I _guess_ that a good way to understand how to use the tools in eev is > > by following existing e-scripts - > > O.K. What are e-scripts? > > > I learned Unix by understanding > > well-written shell scripts and makefiles, so that's similar - and I've > > been trying to create example of e-scripts that are easy to run and > > that demonstrate techniques that I think that are important. > > Nice. > > > This is a > > recent example: > > > > (find-1stclassvideo-links "2022pict2elua") > > > > Title: Pict2e-lua: a library for diagrams that is being developed > > with eev and test blocks > > MP4: http://angg.twu.net/eev-videos/2022-pict2e-lua.mp4 > > YT:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiHsUhGVLGM > > Page: http://angg.twu.net/pict2e-lua.html > > Comment: A very good demo of test blocks. > > Date:2022apr18 > > Length: 8:13 > > I watched the video. But I did not understand. Perhaps it is because I > do not use or have interest in LUA. Much of the energy I put into > something comes from the applicability I find to my own situation. > > > My suggestion is: try to run that example, and if something doesn't > > make sense, then ask a specific question, like "where can I find more > > info about what happens in 5:26?" > > > > Hope that helps =/, > > O.K. Thank you very much for your input, your patience and disposition > to help. :-) Hi Quiliro, you seem to be trying to understand eev without trying it in practice, and this usually doesn't work... please try to run the main tutorial and tell me if - and where - there is anything in it that you can't do. I would like to be able to answer your questions using sexp hyperlinks, but I can't right now because I don't know which of the "basic skills" you do have... [[]], E. =/
Re: Learning EEV
Thank you very much for your ideas, Tomas! They are very useful and complementary to Eduardo's.
Re: Learning EEV
> I think that the problem is that eev grew organically from my needs. > In the beginning I was a person who couldn't write programs longer > than, say, 50 lines long, as I mentioned here: > > https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-orgmode/2022-06/msg00802.html > > I wanted to learn lots of tools and programming languages, and I found > that by keeping "executable notes" of everything that I did I became > capable of much bigger tasks. Then eev became a collection of the best > minimal tools that I had - a bit like Unix, in which many of the > programs in the "core utils" are standard, but many of these programs > only make sense to new users after several years - and from time to > time I would declare some of my old tools obsolete, because I had > replacements for them that were much more elegant... for example > `M-x eev', Nice story. > described here, > > (find-prepared-intro) > http://angg.twu.net/eev-intros/find-prepared-intro.html > > that was sort of replaced by eepitch. Perhaps it would be nice to have a glossary where your terms are described in one sentence. I have found that I get lost in so much information. When I don't understand something, I try to find the information about that which I do not understand. If I do not find it, I do not know where to continue from there. Sometimes the explanations are tool lengthy. So I get tangled in long references to terms and lose my way to the main explanation. I know that M-k is good to keep organized. But I feel that it is not enough for me. I have needed something more simple to start. Now that I understand Emacs and EEV better, I can understand eev-begginer much better. But I think that it would have been better to understand it without prior knowledge. > I _guess_ that a good way to understand how to use the tools in eev is > by following existing e-scripts - O.K. What are e-scripts? > I learned Unix by understanding > well-written shell scripts and makefiles, so that's similar - and I've > been trying to create example of e-scripts that are easy to run and > that demonstrate techniques that I think that are important. Nice. > This is a > recent example: > > (find-1stclassvideo-links "2022pict2elua") > > Title: Pict2e-lua: a library for diagrams that is being developed > with eev and test blocks > MP4: http://angg.twu.net/eev-videos/2022-pict2e-lua.mp4 > YT:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiHsUhGVLGM > Page: http://angg.twu.net/pict2e-lua.html > Comment: A very good demo of test blocks. > Date:2022apr18 > Length: 8:13 I watched the video. But I did not understand. Perhaps it is because I do not use or have interest in LUA. Much of the energy I put into something comes from the applicability I find to my own situation. > My suggestion is: try to run that example, and if something doesn't > make sense, then ask a specific question, like "where can I find more > info about what happens in 5:26?" > > Hope that helps =/, O.K. Thank you very much for your input, your patience and disposition to help. :-)
Re: Learning EEV
On Tue 28 Jun 2022 at 10:07, Quiliro Ordóñez wrote: > But, upon several attempts to learn EEV, I have > given up every time. For me, the ideas in eev are interesting. eev changes my emacs settings too much so I use eev-beginner only (subset of eev). There are a few things I learned to use quickly: - duplicate line with M-h M-2 - eepitch for executable notes F8 I like that Eduardo calls a sexp a button and pressing M-e executes that sexp. Before eev, I used to do something similar, having sexp in comments and pressing C-e (go to end of line) and then C-x C-e (evaluate last sexp), but Eduardo named it properly, gave it a key (M-e) and built whole way of thinking around that. eepitch blocks are much more useable than for example org-mode code blocks, where it is difficult to figure out, how to specify/configure the code block. With eepitch, it is simply all commands, and if you for example tunnel ssh or run stuff in various languages non-homogenously, it is just lines of texts run on a key press F8. Most of the time I do not use debian and globally installed packages so the predefined eepitch commands are not useable for me, but it is trivial to redefine them or define my own eepitch commands. I also use vertically split emacs window since ages ago so eev has been a natural fit for my screen habits. However, I find that most of the stuff in eev is rather Eduardo-specific so it is probably better strategy to cherry pick the good, reuseable parts that fit your way. For example, a lot of things are redundant: (find-man "find") vs (man "find") or too long and not so readable (many of those find- functions for example). It is easier to define my own functions, e.g. (rg-notes "foo") which searches foo in my notes, etc. There are also already existing ways of hyperlinking so for many things I prefer ffap style M-f jumping or M-. and M-, code jumping on the actual text rather than eev style button.
Re: Learning EEV
On Tue, 28 Jun 2022 at 14:07, Quiliro Ordóñez wrote: > > I am convinced that the perspective of hidding code to make user > friendliness is a flaw in software because it will be more difficult to > start to learn hacking and making use of all the power that the person > needs from the tool. But, upon several attempts to learn EEV, I have > given up every time. I know it is my own fault. I wonder if we could > make it both easy by making the "guided" path more visible and making > the other functionality available (not hidden) but less visible in some > way. I am not sure how this could be possible. If I can be of help, I > am available for any task. > > I hope this comment is useful and I wholeheartedly thank Eduardo for the > work done on the project. Hi Quiliro, Thanks!!! There are many people in the same situation as you... I think that the problem is that eev grew organically from my needs. In the beginning I was a person who couldn't write programs longer than, say, 50 lines long, as I mentioned here: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-orgmode/2022-06/msg00802.html I wanted to learn lots of tools and programming languages, and I found that by keeping "executable notes" of everything that I did I became capable of much bigger tasks. Then eev became a collection of the best minimal tools that I had - a bit like Unix, in which many of the programs in the "core utils" are standard, but many of these programs only make sense to new users after several years - and from time to time I would declare some of my old tools obsolete, because I had replacements for them that were much more elegant... for example `M-x eev', described here, (find-prepared-intro) http://angg.twu.net/eev-intros/find-prepared-intro.html that was sort of replaced by eepitch. I _guess_ that a good way to understand how to use the tools in eev is by following existing e-scripts - I learned Unix by understanding well-written shell scripts and makefiles, so that's similar - and I've been trying to create example of e-scripts that are easy to run and that demonstrate techniques that I think that are important. This is a recent example: (find-1stclassvideo-links "2022pict2elua") Title: Pict2e-lua: a library for diagrams that is being developed with eev and test blocks MP4: http://angg.twu.net/eev-videos/2022-pict2e-lua.mp4 YT:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiHsUhGVLGM Page: http://angg.twu.net/pict2e-lua.html Comment: A very good demo of test blocks. Date:2022apr18 Length: 8:13 My suggestion is: try to run that example, and if something doesn't make sense, then ask a specific question, like "where can I find more info about what happens in 5:26?" Hope that helps =/, Eduardo
