[Ekiga-devel-list] HELP !!! (Was Re: [VALVE] Ubuntu Edgy)
Hi, Le mercredi 07 février 2007 à 06:35 +0100, Jan Schampera a écrit : > Folks, > > http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=400590 > http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=401351 > http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=404157 > http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=404612 > http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=405193 > > (and masses of similar stuff I didn't find yet, plus masses of similar > stuff from other programs than Ekiga) We would really need a few persons interested in Ekiga, and who could take in charge the role of triaging bugs. We sometimes receive interesting bug reports, often not. I am loosing much time triaging them. I am loosing much time trying to reproduce them. I am loosing much time trying to get information from users to reproduce the problem. Most of the time, people send me privately -d 4 outputs. I am forced to ignore them. Very often, people send me private e-mails to cancel their Ekiga account, or to ask a question. I am also forced to ignore them. I would really need help. Not from you Kilian, Jan, Julien, Yannick. You are already doing a lot for Ekiga. We need fresh air, from new people. Any taker ? -- _ Damien Sandras (o- //\Ekiga Softphone : http://www.ekiga.org/ v_/_ NOVACOM : http://www.novacom.be/ FOSDEM : http://www.fosdem.org/ SIP Phone : sip:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Ekiga-devel-list mailing list Ekiga-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/ekiga-devel-list
Re: [Ekiga-devel-list] HELP !!! (Was Re: [VALVE] Ubuntu Edgy)
hi PPL, hi Jan, hi staff, Damien Sandras wrote: > Hi, > > Le mercredi 07 février 2007 à 06:35 +0100, Jan Schampera a écrit : > >>Folks, >> >>http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=400590 >>http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=401351 >>http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=404157 >>http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=404612 >>http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=405193 >> >>(and masses of similar stuff I didn't find yet, plus masses of similar >>stuff from other programs than Ekiga) Just blaming Ubuntu Maintainers (QA/Configuration Managers) for bugs does not help here and brings in frustration, Jan, take it as feedback for incomplete CM advise from the Ekiga Project-Management (Sorry, Damien, but I will reason below) and incomplete outsourcing QA-Cycle, and communication failure. In Free Software Projects Practice in Linux, QA is outsourced to distro maintainers, but QM can never be, the PPL is in charge. I've reported such process weaknesses before on this list and IRC, but it got simply ignored. > > > We would really need a few persons interested in Ekiga, and who could > take in charge the role of triaging bugs. Just hiring a testing department is depreciated SW process practice and will not cure the showing up management weaknesses. Keep that outsourced to the distro maintainers and their users. Taking it from them by force would be a violation of current OSS practice we must respect and would lead to more and unsolvable communication problems and possibly complete breakdown of the QA-Cycle and thus, a chaos project. According to modern SW lifecycle process audits results in ISO 15504 and SEI-CMMI, and the SPR Institute's publications, books from german senior PMM practioneers, the failures here do not mainly come from development and CM or users(testers), > > We sometimes receive interesting bug reports, often not. Invite the outsourced QA (distro maintainers) to *documented* weekly online meetings and provide a guideline for such a classification and CM advise from the ekiga devs and self-assessment, maintainers have insufficent input otherwise, maybe You, Damien, want to publish Your complete Project Management ways and habits and reasoned decisions for external audit, so the distro maintainers get enough information for CM and QA, they should be professional enough, again, no reason to blame ubuntu maintainers, here, ekiga teams fault alone. not doing so just copies proprietary companies management practices. they could do much more forward error correction then, and reason their own QA/CM project management processes better and give reasoned feedback upstream, what is what You like to have, isnt it? > > I am loosing much time triaging them. > I am loosing much time trying to reproduce them. > I am loosing much time trying to get information from users to reproduce > the problem. Devs know their library dependencies and other CM well and should provide them *tightly* to the distro maintainers, this has not been done restrictive and full enough in the past. Focus on process too, not only on the product. Again, most Bugs are *traditionally* coming from management failures, pls do a self-assesment of Your practice and decisions and what could follow them. Just think the chain back to the top and dont forget the risk-management before having the dev team moving forward to fast, first fix the bugs, then move forward to new designs, other would be proprietary business practice always releasing buggy software and then selling hotfixes, therere much books out about this for SW PMM. Papers and easy guidelines are also availlable from esi.es and sei.cmu.edu, spr.com maybe, until now I found only proprietary self-assessment/QM software tools (my fault, Ive had enough time to implement some, but as You know I'm a very slow coder, and there was real *no* interest from OSS managers, i've failed for acceptance to introduce such practices on qa.debian.org years before, free projects cant be controlled the classic industry QM way and I am no senior QM or process consultant myself and missing a PHD title for the needed acceptance). You do not need to read all of it, therere quick guidelines books for PMM practioneers available from Your local university library. First address the communication issues to get control back and publish Your management details if You want assessment help, I could translate and format Your output according to ISO 15504 and other standards and best practice and map to PMM-Practice checklists. Get some good books of practice from senior SW-PMM practioneers for communication basics in this science, if Youre not mature enough in this. > > Most of the time, people send me privately -d 4 outputs. I am forced to > ignore them. give reporting guidelines in the README of packages. provide another contact address with autoreply service delegating to the correct reporting places, proprieta
Re: [Ekiga-devel-list] HELP !!! (Was Re: [VALVE] Ubuntu Edgy)
Tom, > > Not from you Kilian, Jan, Julien, Yannick. You are already doing a lot > > for Ekiga. We need fresh air, from new people. > > Why exclude Kilian? He's a senior and CM for many packages and distros and > leading member > of distro QA teams and provides valuable You ignore sometimes for reasons > that indicate > P-CMM issues (not only from the rumors). > > Any taker ? > > If Kilian is out, I'm out, too. you misread Damien. He said that he's excluding me from the blame. He's not excluding me from the project. ;) So, no worries, I'm still there and I will be (as will my packs). -- Best regards, Kilian ___ Ekiga-devel-list mailing list Ekiga-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/ekiga-devel-list
Re: [Ekiga-devel-list] HELP !!! (Was Re: [VALVE] Ubuntu Edgy)
Hi, > > http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=400590 > > http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=401351 > > http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=404157 > > http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=404612 > > http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=405193 > > > > (and masses of similar stuff I didn't find yet, plus masses of similar > > stuff from other programs than Ekiga) > > We would really need a few persons interested in Ekiga, and who could > take in charge the role of triaging bugs. I can do this with Fedora and derivatives if it helps. I've done a reasonable amount of stuff with GM/Ekiga/OPAL and while not a coder know basic debugging stuff and can probably separate the not a issue vs possible bug. > We sometimes receive interesting bug reports, often not. > > I am loosing much time triaging them. > I am loosing much time trying to reproduce them. > I am loosing much time trying to get information from users to reproduce > the problem. > > Most of the time, people send me privately -d 4 outputs. I am forced to > ignore them. > > Very often, people send me private e-mails to cancel their Ekiga > account, or to ask a question. I am also forced to ignore them. Is it possible you can add an unsubscribe/remove feature to the account stuff for ekiga.net accounts. Login, have an option to remove account, send them an email confirmation like the mailing lists do and then once received delete the account? > I would really need help. > > Not from you Kilian, Jan, Julien, Yannick. You are already doing a lot > for Ekiga. We need fresh air, from new people. > > Any taker ? Sure. See above :-) ___ Ekiga-devel-list mailing list Ekiga-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/ekiga-devel-list
Re: [Ekiga-devel-list] HELP !!! (Was Re: [VALVE] Ubuntu Edgy)
Le jeudi 08 février 2007 à 09:27 +, Peter Robinson a écrit : > Hi, > > > > http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=400590 > > > http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=401351 > > > http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=404157 > > > http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=404612 > > > http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=405193 > > > > > > (and masses of similar stuff I didn't find yet, plus masses of similar > > > stuff from other programs than Ekiga) > > > > We would really need a few persons interested in Ekiga, and who could > > take in charge the role of triaging bugs. > > I can do this with Fedora and derivatives if it helps. I've done a > reasonable amount of stuff with GM/Ekiga/OPAL and while not a coder > know basic debugging stuff and can probably separate the not a issue > vs possible bug. > > > We sometimes receive interesting bug reports, often not. > > > > I am loosing much time triaging them. > > I am loosing much time trying to reproduce them. > > I am loosing much time trying to get information from users to reproduce > > the problem. > > > > Most of the time, people send me privately -d 4 outputs. I am forced to > > ignore them. > > > > Very often, people send me private e-mails to cancel their Ekiga > > account, or to ask a question. I am also forced to ignore them. > > Is it possible you can add an unsubscribe/remove feature to the > account stuff for ekiga.net accounts. Login, have an option to remove > account, send them an email confirmation like the mailing lists do and > then once received delete the account? > That would be an interesting feature indeed... Thanks for your help ! -- _ Damien Sandras (o- //\Ekiga Softphone : http://www.ekiga.org/ v_/_ NOVACOM : http://www.novacom.be/ FOSDEM : http://www.fosdem.org/ SIP Phone : sip:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Ekiga-devel-list mailing list Ekiga-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/ekiga-devel-list
Re: [Ekiga-devel-list] HELP !!! (Was Re: [VALVE] Ubuntu Edgy)
Damien Sandras a écrit : > Hi, > > Le mercredi 07 février 2007 à 06:35 +0100, Jan Schampera a écrit : > >> Folks, >> >> http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=400590 >> http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=401351 >> http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=404157 >> http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=404612 >> http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=405193 >> >> (and masses of similar stuff I didn't find yet, plus masses of similar >> stuff from other programs than Ekiga) >> > > We would really need a few persons interested in Ekiga, and who could > take in charge the role of triaging bugs. > > We sometimes receive interesting bug reports, often not. > > I am loosing much time triaging them. > I am loosing much time trying to reproduce them. > I am loosing much time trying to get information from users to reproduce > the problem. > > Most of the time, people send me privately -d 4 outputs. I am forced to > ignore them. > > Very often, people send me private e-mails to cancel their Ekiga > account, or to ask a question. I am also forced to ignore them. > > I would really need help. > > Not from you Kilian, Jan, Julien, Yannick. You are already doing a lot > for Ekiga. We need fresh air, from new people. > > Any taker ? > Following what you say, does it mean you're looking for help on Ubuntu or generally? Second case I could be one of the taker ;-) -- Daniel ___ Ekiga-devel-list mailing list Ekiga-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/ekiga-devel-list
Re: [Ekiga-devel-list] HELP !!! (Was Re: [VALVE] Ubuntu Edgy)
Le jeudi 08 février 2007 à 14:13 +0100, Daniel Huhardeaux a écrit : > Damien Sandras a écrit : > > Hi, > > > > Le mercredi 07 février 2007 à 06:35 +0100, Jan Schampera a écrit : > > > >> Folks, > >> > >> http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=400590 > >> http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=401351 > >> http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=404157 > >> http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=404612 > >> http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=405193 > >> > >> (and masses of similar stuff I didn't find yet, plus masses of similar > >> stuff from other programs than Ekiga) > >> > > > > We would really need a few persons interested in Ekiga, and who could > > take in charge the role of triaging bugs. > > > > We sometimes receive interesting bug reports, often not. > > > > I am loosing much time triaging them. > > I am loosing much time trying to reproduce them. > > I am loosing much time trying to get information from users to reproduce > > the problem. > > > > Most of the time, people send me privately -d 4 outputs. I am forced to > > ignore them. > > > > Very often, people send me private e-mails to cancel their Ekiga > > account, or to ask a question. I am also forced to ignore them. > > > > I would really need help. > > > > Not from you Kilian, Jan, Julien, Yannick. You are already doing a lot > > for Ekiga. We need fresh air, from new people. > > > > Any taker ? > > > Following what you say, does it mean you're looking for help on Ubuntu > or generally? Second case I could be one of the taker ;-) Generally :-) thanks for the proposition, I will formalize that this week-end ! -- _ Damien Sandras (o- //\Ekiga Softphone : http://www.ekiga.org/ v_/_ NOVACOM : http://www.novacom.be/ FOSDEM : http://www.fosdem.org/ SIP Phone : sip:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Ekiga-devel-list mailing list Ekiga-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/ekiga-devel-list
Re: [Ekiga-devel-list] HELP !!! (Was Re: [VALVE] Ubuntu Edgy)
On Thu, 2007-02-08 at 00:14 +0100, Damien Sandras wrote: > Hi, > > Le mercredi 07 février 2007 à 06:35 +0100, Jan Schampera a écrit : > > Folks, > > > > http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=400590 > > http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=401351 > > http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=404157 > > http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=404612 > > http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=405193 > > > > (and masses of similar stuff I didn't find yet, plus masses of similar > > stuff from other programs than Ekiga) > > We would really need a few persons interested in Ekiga, and who could > take in charge the role of triaging bugs. I'd like to help too but I'm on Fedora as well. Is there a way to attach my bugzilla account to all incoming ekiga bugs? Thanks, Ben ___ Ekiga-devel-list mailing list Ekiga-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/ekiga-devel-list
Re: [Ekiga-devel-list] HELP !!! (Was Re: [VALVE] Ubuntu Edgy)
On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 09:28:43 +0100 thomas schorpp <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Just blaming Ubuntu Maintainers (QA/Configuration Managers) > for bugs does not help here and brings in frustration, Jan, take it > as feedback for incomplete CM advise from the Ekiga > Project-Management (Sorry, Damien, but I will reason below) and > incomplete outsourcing QA-Cycle, and communication failure. In Free > Software Projects Practice in Linux, QA is outsourced to distro > maintainers, but QM can never be, the PPL is in charge. Our favourite so far, "crash on exit", was neither an Ekiga bug, nor we complained after a few days. Just to remember, the final OK from Edgy came the day before yesterday, the first bug report was around the beginning of Oct '06, the first try of a patch was 4 or 5 days after that report (just to show the development-sided engine works). If everything you said is true, it would mean that all or at least most distributions ship a broken installation, which is not true. But in general you are right, the information flow from here could be better, but then we're back at our current main problem (I guess I can speak for at least Damien an Julien here, also Yannick, not sure about Kilian) "time". Don't take me too literal, as I wrote, it was just "a valve". So far, Jan -- dreaming in digital living in realtime thinking in binary talking in IP WELCOME TO OUR WORLD ___ Ekiga-devel-list mailing list Ekiga-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/ekiga-devel-list
Re: [Ekiga-devel-list] HELP !!! (Was Re: [VALVE] Ubuntu Edgy)
Hi Ben, Le jeudi 08 février 2007 à 12:20 -0500, Ben Konrath a écrit : > On Thu, 2007-02-08 at 00:14 +0100, Damien Sandras wrote: > > Hi, > > > > Le mercredi 07 février 2007 à 06:35 +0100, Jan Schampera a écrit : > > > Folks, > > > > > > http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=400590 > > > http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=401351 > > > http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=404157 > > > http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=404612 > > > http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=405193 > > > > > > (and masses of similar stuff I didn't find yet, plus masses of similar > > > stuff from other programs than Ekiga) > > > > We would really need a few persons interested in Ekiga, and who could > > take in charge the role of triaging bugs. > > I'd like to help too but I'm on Fedora as well. Is there a way to attach > my bugzilla account to all incoming ekiga bugs? > You, and all people who want to be part of the bugsquad team an open a bugzilla account : http://bugzilla.gnome.org/createaccount.cgi You can then add comments to bugs, but not close them or mark them as duplicates. But once people have proved committment and are able to detect dups or ask for relevant information, they can mail the bugsquad team @ gnome and ask them to have permissions to edit bugs. I suggest to first start commenting : "this bug seems to be a DUP of #..." or "please provide this and that". After that, it is easier to get "approved". Thanks ! -- _ Damien Sandras (o- //\Ekiga Softphone : http://www.ekiga.org/ v_/_ NOVACOM : http://www.novacom.be/ FOSDEM : http://www.fosdem.org/ SIP Phone : sip:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Ekiga-devel-list mailing list Ekiga-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/ekiga-devel-list
