[Elecraft_K3] Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Wine & Update Software

[hank k8dd]

I don't understand the w(h)ine level here . I believe that I would 
do what I had to to be able to use one of the best radios on the band.  
Even if it was an old laptop or PC for that purpose only.
Or 
I would not let a cheap PC & OS keep me from owning a K3.

73HankK8DD

Nick Lidakis wrote:
> Julian G4ILO wrote:
>> VMWare may be free, but XP isn't. And expecting non Windows users to
>> jump through technical hoops and buy a Microsoft OS just to run a
>> firmware loader does not seem to me to be reasonable.
>>
>> I wonder how many Mac or Linux users out there have not ordered a K3
>> yet because of this issue?
>>
>
> I wouldn't. I think the open spirit of Amateur Radio go hand in hand 
> with the open nature of the GNU principles of free software. Since Mac 
> OSX and Linux are both POSIX compliant UNIX, all we would need is some 
> simple command line program written in C to run from a terminal for 
> the firmware uploads.
>
> I would not, presently, buy a radio that I could not at least upload 
> firmware with from my Linux box. I have been Windows free for the last 
> seven years.
>
> Nick N2SVT
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Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Wine & Update Software

[Nick Lidakis]

Julian G4ILO wrote:

VMWare may be free, but XP isn't. And expecting non Windows users to
jump through technical hoops and buy a Microsoft OS just to run a
firmware loader does not seem to me to be reasonable.

I wonder how many Mac or Linux users out there have not ordered a K3
yet because of this issue?



I wouldn't. I think the open spirit of Amateur Radio go hand in hand 
with the open nature of the GNU principles of free software. Since Mac 
OSX and Linux are both POSIX compliant UNIX, all we would need is some 
simple command line program written in C to run from a terminal for the 
firmware uploads.


I would not, presently, buy a radio that I could not at least upload 
firmware with from my Linux box. I have been Windows free for the last 
seven years.


Nick N2SVT
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Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Wine & Update Software

[Mike S]

At 02:46 AM 10/16/2007, Jack Brindle wrote...

There is a huge difference between the old battery-backed memory and
using Flash memory. As you note, the battery will eventually run
down, causing memory to be lost. Flash memory will retain its
contents for a very long period - Microchip specifies this at 40
years minimum, 100 years typical.


But, they don't know that as a fact, and make lots of assumptions when 
making those claims. The chips have obviously not been around over 100 
years to make that claim true. Ask Microchip if they will stand behind 
those claims, and provide you with replacement chips in 39 years if the 
flash memory fails at that time.



I seriously doubt you will ever see the chip die from memory loss.


Well, I can tell you that the Motorola microcontroller in my (and many 
others') Audi instrument cluster died due to failed flash memory, and 
after only a couple of years, not the "40-100 years" the manufacturers 
guess and hope they will be good for. Motorola shipped a batch of "bad" 
chips. Firmware files are not available from anywhere, and Audi charges 
$800+ for a replacement, even though I have the ability to program a 
$20 chip myself.


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Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Wine & Update Software

[Jack Brindle]

There is a huge difference between the old battery-backed memory and  
using Flash memory. As you note, the battery will eventually run  
down, causing memory to be lost. Flash memory will retain its  
contents for a very long period - Microchip specifies this at 40  
years minimum, 100 years typical. This is actually comparable to the  
EPROM memory in the One-Time Programmable chips used in the K2, and  
much longer than anything backed by battery. Parameters in the chips  
are stored in EEPROM memory, which also is specified at 40 years  
minimum, also much longer than the battery-backed systems.


I seriously doubt you will ever see the chip die from memory loss.  
More likely the reason you would want to reprogram it will be to gain  
new features as Wayne releases them. This is true whether the radio  
is a K3, K2, K1, KX1 or anything else that Elecraft might dream up.



On Oct 15, 2007, at 10:40 PM, Leigh L. Klotz, Jr. wrote:

For me, the issue isn't finding some Windows laptop to update the  
K3 with. That's easy enough.
My concern is that eventually, there will be a need to reload the  
K3's firmware, and the version of Windows it's for might not be  
there.  Think of the timescale of ham radio vs. the timescale of  
Windows releases.


There are Japanese ham radios from the 1980's which are now bricked  
because config memory settings were lost when the battery went dead.


It's not important right now, but eventually, having an open way to  
reload the firmware will be important.


That's not the same as saying that the firmware itself needs to be  
open; it just should be possible to restore the radio to it's  
original state without having to find a 20 or 30 year old laptop.


The K2 doesn't have this problem because its firmware isn't writable.

73,
Leigh/WA5ZNU
David Wilburn wrote:
A recent thread mentioned update options, but I did not see any  
new news.  Has anyone tried the K3 update software using Wine  
under Linux?

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- Jack Brindle, W6FB
 
-

Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Wine & Update Software

[Jeff Stai]

You can't even believe how hard for me it is to NOT comment on a subject that has 
"wine" in it!

On 7/25, Wayne said:

"It's possible that we'll rewrite the K3 Downloader software application in VB6, etc., so that .NET 
won't be needed. The only reason we use .NET now is that I'm a C programmer, and the quickest way 
for me to get the downloader working was to use Microsoft's C# programming environment.


"In fact I hope to turn the downloader project in its entirety over to someone else  ;)   Want to 
write some VB6 code?"


I am 100% certain alternative loaders will be written and supported for all 
sorts of platforms.

73! - jeff wk6i

--
Jeff Stai   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Twisted Oak Winery  http://www.twistedoak.com/
Winery Blog http://www.elbloggotorcido.com/
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Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Wine & Update Software

[Leigh L. Klotz, Jr.]

For me, the issue isn't finding some Windows laptop to update the K3 
with. That's easy enough.
My concern is that eventually, there will be a need to reload the K3's 
firmware, and the version of Windows it's for might not be there.  Think 
of the timescale of ham radio vs. the timescale of Windows releases.


There are Japanese ham radios from the 1980's which are now bricked 
because config memory settings were lost when the battery went dead.


It's not important right now, but eventually, having an open way to 
reload the firmware will be important.


That's not the same as saying that the firmware itself needs to be open; 
it just should be possible to restore the radio to it's original state 
without having to find a 20 or 30 year old laptop.


The K2 doesn't have this problem because its firmware isn't writable.

73,
Leigh/WA5ZNU
David Wilburn wrote:
A recent thread mentioned update options, but I did not see any new 
news.  Has anyone tried the K3 update software using Wine under Linux?

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Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Wine & Update Software

[Bob Nielsen]

With Microsoft Virtual PC, I can even run XP on my G4 Mac although it  
is extremely slow, as one would expect from cross-platform  
emulation.  There is a version of QEMM (free) which emulates Intel  
for the PowerPC Macs also, but I haven't tried running Windows on it.


Bob, N7XY

On Oct 15, 2007, at 2:02 AM, David Ferrington, M0XDF wrote:

Well, 'luckily' ?  I'm an IT professional and so I have to use  
Wintel too -
to that end, I have my own XP laptop, but I prefer to use Mac and  
do so for

logging and rig control etc. But will be able to load firmware via the
Elecraft USB adaptor.

Of course, all those with Mac manufactured in the last 18 months or  
so can

run XP (or other software) though a virtual machine.

And no, I can't program for a Mac I'm afraid.

BTW Julian, rather depressed to hear the potential delivery date of  
your K3,

means mine will be around the same time I guess.

Shameless plug:
50th Anniversary of JOTA this coming weekend, I shall be QRV as  
GB4SBS as

usual - SSB (since most scouts don't know CW) on most bands.


On 15/10/07 09:32, "Julian G4ILO" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> sent:
 Mac and Linux users must

be feeling a bit left out at this point.




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Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Wine & Update Software

[Julian G4ILO]

VMWare may be free, but XP isn't. And expecting non Windows users to
jump through technical hoops and buy a Microsoft OS just to run a
firmware loader does not seem to me to be reasonable.

I wonder how many Mac or Linux users out there have not ordered a K3
yet because of this issue?

-- 
Julian, G4ILO K2 s/n: 392  K3 s/n: ???
G4ILO's Shack: www.g4ilo.com
Zerobeat Ham Forums: www.zerobeat.net/smf


On 10/15/07, Ian J Maude <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I don't see why Julian.  VMware is free these days and having an XP VM
> is a breeze for the vast majority of Linux users.
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Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Wine & Update Software

[Ian J Maude]

Julian G4ILO wrote:

It's a fair point, Vic. But there are some very professional
developers out there in Elecraft user land, who understand the meaning
of the word "testing". Harnessing their expertise to produce loaders
for different platforms seems to me to be more practical than
expecting Elecraft to do it all themselves. I'm glad I use Windows
(and that isn't something I say very often! ) Mac and Linux users must
be feeling a bit left out at this point.
  
I don't see why Julian.  VMware is free these days and having an XP VM 
is a breeze for the vast majority of Linux users.  Personally I have 
both O/S's here and I have no problem at all with Elecraft having a 
windoze utility.


Ian


--

Ian J Maude, G0VGS
SysOp GB7MBC DX Cluster
Member RSGB, GQRP
K2 #4044 |K3 #?

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Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Wine & Update Software

[David Ferrington, M0XDF]

Well, 'luckily' ?  I'm an IT professional and so I have to use Wintel too -
to that end, I have my own XP laptop, but I prefer to use Mac and do so for
logging and rig control etc. But will be able to load firmware via the
Elecraft USB adaptor.

Of course, all those with Mac manufactured in the last 18 months or so can
run XP (or other software) though a virtual machine.

And no, I can't program for a Mac I'm afraid.

BTW Julian, rather depressed to hear the potential delivery date of your K3,
means mine will be around the same time I guess.

Shameless plug:
50th Anniversary of JOTA this coming weekend, I shall be QRV as GB4SBS as
usual - SSB (since most scouts don't know CW) on most bands.


On 15/10/07 09:32, "Julian G4ILO" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> sent:
 Mac and Linux users must
> be feeling a bit left out at this point.

-- 
Don't look forward to the day you stop suffering, because when it
comes you'll know you're dead. -Tennessee Williams


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Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Wine & Update Software

[Julian G4ILO]

It's a fair point, Vic. But there are some very professional
developers out there in Elecraft user land, who understand the meaning
of the word "testing". Harnessing their expertise to produce loaders
for different platforms seems to me to be more practical than
expecting Elecraft to do it all themselves. I'm glad I use Windows
(and that isn't something I say very often! ) Mac and Linux users must
be feeling a bit left out at this point.

-- 
Julian, G4ILO K2 s/n: 392  K3 s/n: ???
G4ILO's Shack: www.g4ilo.com
Zerobeat Ham Forums: www.zerobeat.net/smf


On 10/14/07, Vic K2VCO <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> The first version of the download software, which was written by Wayne
> in order to get the field testers functional, used C# and .net.
>
> The current version, which you will get, was written by a software
> developer (not that Wayne isn't a good programmer!), and does not use
> .net. Although as far as I know only a Windows version exists today, I
> am sure that the portability issue is receiving attention.
>
> The software needs to load several modules (for example, the MCU and the
> DSP code, possibly DSP code for the second rx, etc.) so it's not all
> that simple. They certainly don't want owners calling them and saying "I
> used xyz software to load my firmware and now the radio behaves like a
> brick". In that case, would it be fair for them to provide free support?
> Would the owner be happy if they asked him to pay for a fix?
> --
> 73,
> Vic, K2VCO
> Fresno CA
> http://www.qsl.net/k2vco
>
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Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Wine & Update Software

[Vic K2VCO]

Julian G4ILO wrote:

Since it has to do everything via a serial port, it would be more
interesting to see a flowchart or description of the communication
protocol to allow users of other platforms to write their own
implementations. In choosing C# and .Net the original code could
hardly have been made less portable.


The first version of the download software, which was written by Wayne 
in order to get the field testers functional, used C# and .net.


The current version, which you will get, was written by a software 
developer (not that Wayne isn't a good programmer!), and does not use 
.net. Although as far as I know only a Windows version exists today, I 
am sure that the portability issue is receiving attention.


The software needs to load several modules (for example, the MCU and the 
DSP code, possibly DSP code for the second rx, etc.) so it's not all 
that simple. They certainly don't want owners calling them and saying "I 
used xyz software to load my firmware and now the radio behaves like a 
brick". In that case, would it be fair for them to provide free support? 
Would the owner be happy if they asked him to pay for a fix?

--
73,
Vic, K2VCO
Fresno CA
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco
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Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Wine & Update Software

[Julian G4ILO]

Since it has to do everything via a serial port, it would be more
interesting to see a flowchart or description of the communication
protocol to allow users of other platforms to write their own
implementations. In choosing C# and .Net the original code could
hardly have been made less portable.

-- 
Julian, G4ILO K2 s/n: 392  K3 s/n: ???
G4ILO's Shack: www.g4ilo.com
Zerobeat Ham Forums: www.zerobeat.net/smf


On 10/13/07, Toby Deinhardt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hallo,
>
> > A recent thread mentioned update options, but I did not see any new
> > news.  Has anyone tried the K3 update software using Wine under Linux?
>
> I seem to remember that Wayne mentioned writing the software with C#
> which implies .Net technology and I am fairly sure that it will not work
> using Wine.
>
> More interesting would be to try running the software (if it really uses
> .Net) with Mono or DotGNU Portable NET.
>
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Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Wine & Update Software

[Toby Deinhardt]

Hallo,

A recent thread mentioned update options, but I did not see any new 
news.  Has anyone tried the K3 update software using Wine under Linux?


I seem to remember that Wayne mentioned writing the software with C# 
which implies .Net technology and I am fairly sure that it will not work 
using Wine.


More interesting would be to try running the software (if it really uses 
.Net) with Mono or DotGNU Portable NET.


vy 73 de toby

PS: For more about alternative .Net implementations:


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[Elecraft] [K3] Wine & Update Software

[David Wilburn]

A recent thread mentioned update options, but I did not see any new news.  Has 
anyone tried the K3 update software using Wine under Linux?

--

David Wilburn
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
K4DGW
K2 #5982

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