[Elecraft] OT: Groond rods and concrete

[Rose]

-NEVER- encase a ground rod in concrete ... especially a tower base.

As a retired 2-way radio tech, I'm aware of two towers that had to be
re-installed because of lightening strikes exploding their concrete bases.

73!

Ken - K0PP



On Mon, Apr 17, 2017 at 3:06 PM, Matt Zilmer  wrote:

> Most house grounds are just a piece of re-bar hammered into the soil,
> andthis is done before the foundation is poured around it. Ours is barely
> visible except for the big chair clamp that secures the bare #8 wire to it.
> I've seen it other ways too, for example in the upper midwest.  The ground
> we had in Iowa was three copper-plated rods within about one square foot,
> all bonded together.  Not sure why anyone would do that, but the builder
> did the same for all houses in that development.
>
> 73,
>
> matt W6NIA
>
>
> On 4/17/2017 2:00 PM, ab2tc wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> This is totally off topic; I apologize.
>>
>> I just received the new ARRL publication "grounding and bonding  for the
>> radio amateur". It is very interesting reading. I see that the NEC
>> requires
>> two ground rods for regular power installations; never mind any antennas.
>> I
>> swear that when when I moved into this house there were absolutely no
>> ground
>> rods installed. I just inspected our power pole that supplies our power. I
>> could see no wires going in to the ground. So I have no idea where our
>> "green wire" came from.
>>
>> But I have have installed two 8 foot ground rods to ground my antennas and
>> they are bonded to the AC entry panel. But what's up with this? I bet my
>> neighbors have no ground rods installed either.
>>
>> Knut - AB2TC
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabb
>> le.com/OT-electrical-safety-tp7629429.html
>> Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>> __
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to mzil...@roadrunner.com
>>
>
> --
> "A delay is better than a disaster."
> -- unknonwn
>
> Matt Zilmer, W6NIA
> [Shiraz]
>
> __
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to elecraftcov...@gmail.com
>
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] OT: Groond rods and concrete

[Wes Stewart]

Isn't the tower base pretty much a ground rod?

On 4/17/2017 2:16 PM, Rose wrote:

-NEVER- encase a ground rod in concrete ... especially a tower base.

As a retired 2-way radio tech, I'm aware of two towers that had to be
re-installed because of lightening strikes exploding their concrete bases.

73!

Ken - K0PP



__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] OT: Groond rods and concrete

[Bill Johnson]

No, unless adequate steps are taken to assure a large ground grid is made.  
This requires more than just a slab. 

73,
Bill
K9YEQ

-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Wes 
Stewart
Sent: Monday, April 17, 2017 5:17 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] OT: Groond rods and concrete

Isn't the tower base pretty much a ground rod?

On 4/17/2017 2:16 PM, Rose wrote:
> -NEVER- encase a ground rod in concrete ... especially a tower base.
>
> As a retired 2-way radio tech, I'm aware of two towers that had to be 
> re-installed because of lightening strikes exploding their concrete bases.
>
> 73!
>
> Ken - K0PP
>

__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message 
delivered to k9...@live.com
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] OT: Groond rods and concrete

[Eric J]

That would make it tough to get a self-supported tower permitted in Los Angeles 
County and probably a lot of other jurisdictions. It wouldn't get past the 
engineering review.

Eric

KE6US

On 4/17/2017 3:16 PM, Wes Stewart wrote:
Isn't the tower base pretty much a ground rod?

On 4/17/2017 2:16 PM, Rose wrote:
-NEVER- encase a ground rod in concrete ... especially a tower base.

As a retired 2-way radio tech, I'm aware of two towers that had to be
re-installed because of lightening strikes exploding their concrete bases.

73!

Ken - K0PP


__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to eric_c...@hotmail.com
.


__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] OT: Groond rods and concrete

[Don Wilhelm]

Good information on grounding and lightning protection for the Amateur 
Radio Station can be found in the writings of Ron Block NR2B.  He 
published a series in QST for June, July and August of 2002.


Those articles can be downloaded from his website at
http://wrblock.com/StationProtection/StationProtection.html

This information is what I based my grounding system on.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 4/17/2017 6:25 PM, Bill Johnson wrote:

No, unless adequate steps are taken to assure a large ground grid is made.  
This requires more than just a slab.

__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] OT: Groond rods and concrete

[Bill Johnson]

Good article with excellent grounding theory included.  Personally,  I remove 
my equipment from the antenna system remotely during bad weather and generally 
when not operating, via a remote antenna switch, which I forgot to mention.  
When storms are eminent, I disconnect remotely and allow the discharge devices 
to handle static issues without the rigs connected to the antennas. No losses 
to date   I also have homeowners insurance just in case the really big 
bolt, mother of all, should strike.

73,
Bill
K9YEQ

-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Don 
Wilhelm
Sent: Monday, April 17, 2017 5:43 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] OT: Groond rods and concrete

Good information on grounding and lightning protection for the Amateur Radio 
Station can be found in the writings of Ron Block NR2B.  He published a series 
in QST for June, July and August of 2002.

Those articles can be downloaded from his website at 
http://wrblock.com/StationProtection/StationProtection.html

This information is what I based my grounding system on.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 4/17/2017 6:25 PM, Bill Johnson wrote:
> No, unless adequate steps are taken to assure a large ground grid is made.  
> This requires more than just a slab.
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message 
delivered to k9...@live.com
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] OT: Groond rods and concrete

[Wes Stewart]

Clearly, you have something in mind different from me.

https://www.tessco.com/products/displayProductInfo.do?sku=12952

Tell me how you avoid the exploding concrete myth using something like this?

Or with a bolted base plate:

https://www.cableandwireshop.com/rohn-45g-tower-concrete-base-plate-r-bpc45g.html

Read the last sentence.


On 4/17/2017 3:25 PM, Bill Johnson wrote:

No, unless adequate steps are taken to assure a large ground grid is made.  
This requires more than just a slab.

73,
Bill
K9YEQ

-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Wes 
Stewart
Sent: Monday, April 17, 2017 5:17 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] OT: Groond rods and concrete

Isn't the tower base pretty much a ground rod?

On 4/17/2017 2:16 PM, Rose wrote:

-NEVER- encase a ground rod in concrete ... especially a tower base.

As a retired 2-way radio tech, I'm aware of two towers that had to be
re-installed because of lightening strikes exploding their concrete bases.

73!

Ken - K0PP


__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message 
delivered to k9...@live.com



__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] OT: Groond rods and concrete

[Walter Underwood]

House grounds and tower grounds are designed for different hazards (and risks, 
which are hazards with dollars).

Direct lighting strikes on houses are less common than power line surges. So 
house grounds are designed for surges, which can be large. A direct strike on a 
stucco house is going to vaporize the wire mesh and blow the stucco off in 
several places. Ground rods won’t help that much.

A tower is much more likely to get a direct strike. The grounding system on a 
tower is designed to survive a feeder strike and reduce the destruction (risk) 
of a direct strike. Better to melt the coax than burn down the transmitter 
shack.

When I was in high school in Indianapolis, my next door neighbor was a ham with 
a tower. He had worked on lighting arrestors at GE. He explained that a 
lighting pulse had so much high-frequency energy that it more followed than 
conducted along a ground strap. It jumps from the strap to the building and 
back about every two feet. Lightning systems are a hint, not a directive. 
Nobody tells lightning what to do.

I like what I do, but working on lighting arrestors? That would be COOL.

wunder
K6WRU
Walter Underwood
CM87wj
http://observer.wunderwood.org/ (my blog)

> On Apr 17, 2017, at 4:16 PM, Wes Stewart  wrote:
> 
> Clearly, you have something in mind different from me.
> 
> https://www.tessco.com/products/displayProductInfo.do?sku=12952
> 
> Tell me how you avoid the exploding concrete myth using something like this?
> 
> Or with a bolted base plate:
> 
> https://www.cableandwireshop.com/rohn-45g-tower-concrete-base-plate-r-bpc45g.html
> 
> Read the last sentence.
> 
> 
> On 4/17/2017 3:25 PM, Bill Johnson wrote:
>> No, unless adequate steps are taken to assure a large ground grid is made.  
>> This requires more than just a slab.
>> 
>> 73,
>> Bill
>> K9YEQ
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Wes 
>> Stewart
>> Sent: Monday, April 17, 2017 5:17 PM
>> To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] OT: Groond rods and concrete
>> 
>> Isn't the tower base pretty much a ground rod?
>> 
>> On 4/17/2017 2:16 PM, Rose wrote:
>>> -NEVER- encase a ground rod in concrete ... especially a tower base.
>>> 
>>> As a retired 2-way radio tech, I'm aware of two towers that had to be
>>> re-installed because of lightening strikes exploding their concrete bases.
>>> 
>>> 73!
>>> 
>>> Ken - K0PP
>>> 
>> __
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
>> 
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message 
>> delivered to k9...@live.com
>> 
> 
> __
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> 
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to wun...@wunderwood.org

__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] OT: Groond rods and concrete

[Ted Edwards W3TB]

The first time I put up a tower I just put the ground rods down from the
bottom of the hole and brought the connecting wire up through the
concrete.  No problems happened, but maybe I just got lucky.  Nobody had
ever said anything to me to the contrary.

For radio grounding to earth, I use 1/2 inch copper pipe 10 foot length and
get it in the ground hydrolically with a fitting that lets me put the
garden hose to the end and shoot water from the other end to make the
hole.  Works really well.  And I have wondered whether to connect another
10 feet and go deeper.  I have 5 of those connected together in common.

On Mon, Apr 17, 2017 at 8:25 PM, Walter Underwood 
wrote:

> House grounds and tower grounds are designed for different hazards (and
> risks, which are hazards with dollars).
>
> Direct lighting strikes on houses are less common than power line surges.
> So house grounds are designed for surges, which can be large. A direct
> strike on a stucco house is going to vaporize the wire mesh and blow the
> stucco off in several places. Ground rods won’t help that much.
>
> A tower is much more likely to get a direct strike. The grounding system
> on a tower is designed to survive a feeder strike and reduce the
> destruction (risk) of a direct strike. Better to melt the coax than burn
> down the transmitter shack.
>
> When I was in high school in Indianapolis, my next door neighbor was a ham
> with a tower. He had worked on lighting arrestors at GE. He explained that
> a lighting pulse had so much high-frequency energy that it more followed
> than conducted along a ground strap. It jumps from the strap to the
> building and back about every two feet. Lightning systems are a hint, not a
> directive. Nobody tells lightning what to do.
>
> I like what I do, but working on lighting arrestors? That would be COOL.
>
> wunder
> K6WRU
> Walter Underwood
> CM87wj
> http://observer.wunderwood.org/ (my blog)
>
> > On Apr 17, 2017, at 4:16 PM, Wes Stewart  wrote:
> >
> > Clearly, you have something in mind different from me.
> >
> > https://www.tessco.com/products/displayProductInfo.do?sku=12952
> >
> > Tell me how you avoid the exploding concrete myth using something like
> this?
> >
> > Or with a bolted base plate:
> >
> > https://www.cableandwireshop.com/rohn-45g-tower-concrete-
> base-plate-r-bpc45g.html
> >
> > Read the last sentence.
> >
> >
> > On 4/17/2017 3:25 PM, Bill Johnson wrote:
> >> No, unless adequate steps are taken to assure a large ground grid is
> made.  This requires more than just a slab.
> >>
> >> 73,
> >> Bill
> >> K9YEQ
> >>
> >> -Original Message-
> >> From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of
> Wes Stewart
> >> Sent: Monday, April 17, 2017 5:17 PM
> >> To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> >> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] OT: Groond rods and concrete
> >>
> >> Isn't the tower base pretty much a ground rod?
> >>
> >> On 4/17/2017 2:16 PM, Rose wrote:
> >>> -NEVER- encase a ground rod in concrete ... especially a tower base.
> >>>
> >>> As a retired 2-way radio tech, I'm aware of two towers that had to be
> >>> re-installed because of lightening strikes exploding their concrete
> bases.
> >>>
> >>> 73!
> >>>
> >>> Ken - K0PP
> >>>
> >> __
> >> Elecraft mailing list
> >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> >> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> >>
> >> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> >> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to k9...@live.com
> >>
> >
> > __
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> >
> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> > Message delivered to wun...@wunderwood.org
>
> __
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to w3tb@gmail.com
>



-- 
73 de Ted Edwards, W3TB and GØPWW

and thinking about operating CW:
"Do today what others won't,
so you can do tomorrow what others can't."
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com