Re: [Elecraft] Good Natured Contesting Advice
Sorry for the late reply, but I was out of town last week on a fishing trip... On Thu, Nov 10, 2022 at 6:28 AM Nate Bargmann wrote: But the rules state the call is to be sent between the Prec > and Check (years back I recall a software author from outside the US > stating that the call in the exchange was redundant and when it was > pointed out that the SS rules state it is required as part of the > exchange his retort was that the rules were wrong!) This is a *huge* burr under my saddle! It totally messes with my mind when someone sends the PREC and then the CK without a callsign in between. I almost always have to ask for a fill in those cases. I had two or three this year that did that out of about 700 or so contacts...and all of those were from people who should have known better. And one was a guy who was sending about 40wpm, trying, no doubt, to be "efficient". 73 de Lee, AA4GA __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
[Elecraft] Good Natured Contesting Advice
>"When answering a CQ, send ONLY your call, and never repeat anything that the other station copied correctly. For example, if he sent your call correctly when he responded to you, don't repeat your call when sending your exchange." As I read the rules of the contest, sending your call is *required* as part of the exchange. >"And when you're the caller, never send the other station's call unless there's confusion about who's working who." Yes, I read that in the QST write-up, but. Sending the other station's call confirms that you have copied his call correctly. 73, Charlie, N0TT __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
[Elecraft] Good Natured Contesting Advice
Lets not forget to be grateful for the "cannon fodder" and "Sunday drivers", without whom we wouldn't have many to work. Otherwise it would be like a FOC contest, with the rest of us peeking through the chain link fence, gawking at the elite. Sometimes that QRS QLF op will give us the last point needed to squeak past the competition. Ralph, VE7XF RIP VE7FO __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] Good Natured Contesting Advice
* On 2022 10 Nov 13:15 -0600, j...@kk9a.com wrote: > Back when I had a station in Aruba, I arrived on a Saturday and a 160m > contest was already in progress. The very first station that I called > responded QSO B4 and blew me off! O... Real life strikes. Years back I came up with the joke that what Marconi *really* heard that December day in 1901 was, "UP! UP!" I'll see myself out. 73, Nate, N0NB -- "The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true." Web: https://www.n0nb.us Projects: https://github.com/N0NB GPG fingerprint: 82D6 4F6B 0E67 CD41 F689 BBA6 FB2C 5130 D55A 8819 __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] Good Natured Contesting Advice
Very true Fred, this also applies with QRM. It can be very frustrating. Only resend the info that is being asked for. John KK9A Fred Jensen k6dgwn wrote: Thompson's First Law: "If there is QSB, his signal will be strong while sending all the unnecessary things you already have and then fade when he gets to the one necessary thing you asked for." Thompson's Second Law: "Repeat your request and then refer to Thompson's First Law." 73, Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW Sparks NV DM09dn Washoe County __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] Good Natured Contesting Advice
Back when I had a station in Aruba, I arrived on a Saturday and a 160m contest was already in progress. The very first station that I called responded QSO B4 and blew me off! John KK9A aka P40A Jim Brown K9YC wrote: He was wrong and you were right. Goes with the rule of smart contesters to ALWAYS work dupes. He likely got your call wrong, or you got his wrong. If the former, he gets penalized. 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] Good Natured Contesting Advice
Thompson's First Law: "If there is QSB, his signal will be strong while sending all the unnecessary things you already have and then fade when he gets to the one necessary thing you asked for." Thompson's Second Law: "Repeat your request and then refer to Thompson's First Law." 73, Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW Sparks NV DM09dn Washoe County Jim Brown wrote on 11/9/2022 8:18 PM: One piece of advice (really a request) to contesters who think they are weak, so they repeat everything at least once. Please don't do that -- just send your exchange once, and let the other station ask for a repeat if needed. -- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software. www.avg.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] Good Natured Contesting Advice
He was wrong and you were right. Goes with the rule of smart contesters to ALWAYS work dupes. He likely got your call wrong, or you got his wrong. If the former, he gets penalized. 73, Jim K9YC On 11/10/2022 4:57 AM, Richard Hill wrote: One loud op sent "Dupe" so I checked and I had nothing similar in N1MM+. I moved on, but the next time I searched that band I got another DUPE. I sent NIL and got DUPE. We did that 2 or more times as I rotated through the bands until I memorized his call. The advice I hear in my clubs and here is work first worry later. But dupe checking works both ways, NIL means not in log and for whatever reason no dupe and he maùy lose penalty points and likely saved little time. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] Good Natured Contesting Advice
On 11/10/2022 3:28 AM, Nate Bargmann wrote: However, I would caution against the answering station NEVER sending his call again as it is a requirement for a complete SS exchange. Yes, you're right, that's the exception. 73, Jim __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] Good Natured Contesting Advice
OK, here is a bit of view from the little pistol side. I made 135 contacts from a low EFHW antenna and 99W. I'm not loud. I'm a CW novice. I hear OK and send OK at 23 wpm. I practice and can hear simple exchanges up to about 30 wpm. I struggle with callsigns and complex words and phrases. I search and pounce by listening 2, 3, 4 or more times till I'm confident I have an exchange. Then I let N1MM+ and WinKey USB send my call and when appropriate send my exchange. I had a number of loud strong stations call over me, some while I sent my exchange, and some running ops abandoned me and took the loud station. OK. Wipe that one. Try again here or elsewhere, turn the big knob. Part of the game. 9⁸ Sometimes I was asked for a repeat with a question mark. I sent all again. Sometimes I heard noise or QRM/QRN and nothing specific and so I sent my entire exchange. If I hear a specific item, I sent that by hand. When I screwed up my hand sending I let N1MM+ send (not necessary often). One loud op sent "Dupe" so I checked and I had nothing similar in N1MM+. I moved on, but the next time I searched that band I got another DUPE. I sent NIL and got DUPE. We did that 2 or more times as I rotated through the bands until I memorized his call. The advice I hear in my clubs and here is work first worry later. But dupe checking works both ways, NIL means not in log and for whatever reason no dupe and he maùy lose penalty points and likely saved little time. None of this is an excuse to play in a big contest when you are not ready to play reasonably well. A contester's goal is to send and recieve as accurately and quickly as possible to accumulate the most points possible, understanding that too fast is slow, and too slow is not winning. I listened to a straight key op sending CQ SS at some 10 wpm high in the band on Saturday. I chose not to call because I'm terrible at slow code and it would not have been fun. If it had been later on Sunday I might have called. I wondered how many takers the op got? SS CW does not seem a good place for slow straight key, but it may have been an older op with a 30s-40s check. Dunno. Nothing wrong for trying, but expectations should be low. Nu6t Rich On Thu, Nov 10, 2022, 3:28 AM Nate Bargmann wrote: > * On 2022 09 Nov 22:20 -0600, Jim Brown wrote: > > When answering a CQ, send ONLY your call, and never repeat anything that > the > > other station copied correctly. For example, if he sent your call > correctly > > when he responded to you, don't repeat your call when sending your > exchange. > > And when you're the caller, never send the other station's call unless > > there's confusion about who's working who. :) As Bob, K6XX, says when > he's > > teaching new contesters, "I know MY call, the only one I need is YOURS! > > I have a couple of thoughts on this advice, Jim. > > First, I agree wholeheartedly about ONLY sending your call. Field Day > is one of the most frustrating events as it is rife with bad > habits--pretty much limited to phone. I have tried to train others not > to do those bad habits and guess what, apparently it is too difficult to > accept being different (I've been different all my life so I am > comfortable here) and they do all the bad habit things they're hearing. > The last couple of times I just gave up and stuck to the CW band! > > We had one op that always would send the exchange whenever the other > station had only asked for a repeat of our call. I tried and tried to > get him to stop doing that as it just made the QSO much longer than > necessary as the flow of the exchanges got all goofed up. In his mind > this was apparently proper procedure... > > However, I would caution against the answering station NEVER sending his > call again as it is a requirement for a complete SS exchange. Yes, over > the years I copied a lot of ops that only sent #, Prec, Check, Section > and omitted their call which in retrospect I should have probably > rejected. But the rules state the call is to be sent between the Prec > and Check (years back I recall a software author from outside the US > stating that the call in the exchange was redundant and when it was > pointed out that the SS rules state it is required as part of the > exchange his retort was that the rules were wrong!) > > 73, Nate, N0NB > > -- > "The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all > possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true." > Web: https://www.n0nb.us > Projects: https://github.com/N0NB > GPG fingerprint: 82D6 4F6B 0E67 CD41 F689 BBA6 FB2C 5130 D55A 8819 > > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to nu6t.r...@gmail.com >
Re: [Elecraft] Good Natured Contesting Advice
* On 2022 09 Nov 22:20 -0600, Jim Brown wrote: > When answering a CQ, send ONLY your call, and never repeat anything that the > other station copied correctly. For example, if he sent your call correctly > when he responded to you, don't repeat your call when sending your exchange. > And when you're the caller, never send the other station's call unless > there's confusion about who's working who. :) As Bob, K6XX, says when he's > teaching new contesters, "I know MY call, the only one I need is YOURS! I have a couple of thoughts on this advice, Jim. First, I agree wholeheartedly about ONLY sending your call. Field Day is one of the most frustrating events as it is rife with bad habits--pretty much limited to phone. I have tried to train others not to do those bad habits and guess what, apparently it is too difficult to accept being different (I've been different all my life so I am comfortable here) and they do all the bad habit things they're hearing. The last couple of times I just gave up and stuck to the CW band! We had one op that always would send the exchange whenever the other station had only asked for a repeat of our call. I tried and tried to get him to stop doing that as it just made the QSO much longer than necessary as the flow of the exchanges got all goofed up. In his mind this was apparently proper procedure... However, I would caution against the answering station NEVER sending his call again as it is a requirement for a complete SS exchange. Yes, over the years I copied a lot of ops that only sent #, Prec, Check, Section and omitted their call which in retrospect I should have probably rejected. But the rules state the call is to be sent between the Prec and Check (years back I recall a software author from outside the US stating that the call in the exchange was redundant and when it was pointed out that the SS rules state it is required as part of the exchange his retort was that the rules were wrong!) 73, Nate, N0NB -- "The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true." Web: https://www.n0nb.us Projects: https://github.com/N0NB GPG fingerprint: 82D6 4F6B 0E67 CD41 F689 BBA6 FB2C 5130 D55A 8819 __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
[Elecraft] Good Natured Contesting Advice
On 11/9/2022 5:12 PM, j...@kk9a.com wrote: One final comment regarding dupes. The contesting club to which I belong has a mantra: "work all dupes!" There is no penalty, but there is the possibility that one op or both busted a QSO, so the second one is insurance. Just work 'em. you might take small time hit, but how much time would you spend sending B4 or DUPE, then explaining to the other op why you won't work him again? Yes. And that's why the guys not keeping dupe sheets are so frustrating, especially in SS when it's a long exchange. On 11/9/2022 5:56 PM, Nate Bargmann wrote: > I got turned off of the CQWW DX CW 'test years ago because of the > absurdly high speeds, of course it is merely a callsign copying event. Yes, I've made some contesters very angry when I've said on the CQ-Contest reflector that CQWW is the dumbest contest going, for exactly that reason. And it's why so many CW ops love SS -- because it's a long exchange, and you have to copy all of it correctly or lose the QSO. One piece of advice (really a request) to contesters who think they are weak, so they repeat everything at least once. Please don't do that -- just send your exchange once, and let the other station ask for a repeat if needed. Some other contesting advice. When answering a CQ, send ONLY your call, and never repeat anything that the other station copied correctly. For example, if he sent your call correctly when he responded to you, don't repeat your call when sending your exchange. And when you're the caller, never send the other station's call unless there's confusion about who's working who. :) As Bob, K6XX, says when he's teaching new contesters, "I know MY call, the only one I need is YOURS! The reasons for all of this is that 1) contesting is about making more QOSs, which means doing it faster, so never waste time with anything un-necessary; and 2) when you are weak at the other station, or if there's QRM or QSB, wasting time sending something un-necessary increases the chances that you'll get clobbered by that QRM or QSB! 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
